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  Topic: IDC Advocates Speak, Experiencing TARD Benders< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,13:01   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,12:38)
First,

Whoa!



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,13:04   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,10:38)


My favorite bit would have to be the pufferfish inexplicably hanging from the ceiling.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,13:40   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,13:04)

My favorite bit would have to be the pufferfish inexplicably hanging from the ceiling.

For some reason, monkey-in-fez depictions have become a theme in Tiki art (thus the pufferfish) : http://www.monkeyskull.net/photos/voodoolounge/artists.htm . See the Dave Wong stuff.
I *like* tiki kitsch and I'm collecting Tiki-style stuff for my home bar, but I'll be damned if I'll find a place for fez-monkey paintings.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,13:45   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,13:40)
I *like* tiki kitsch and I'm collecting Tiki-style stuff for my home bar, but I'll be damned if I'll find a place for fez-monkey paintings.

My wife loves tiki.  Our kitchen is decorated with a few skull and Easter Island glasses from the old Kahiki Supper Club in Columbus. Alas, it has been closed for over 8 years now.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,14:25   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,19:04)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,10:38)


My favorite bit would have to be the pufferfish inexplicably hanging from the ceiling.

That's my favourite bit too.

Possibly for different reasons. Tetrodotoxin is a fascinating synthetic target after all.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,14:41   

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 24 2009,12:25)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,19:04)
   
Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,10:38)


My favorite bit would have to be the pufferfish inexplicably hanging from the ceiling.

That's my favourite bit too.

No, no, no. It's my favorite bit. Not my favourite.
:angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,14:56   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 24 2009,13:45)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,13:40)
I *like* tiki kitsch and I'm collecting Tiki-style stuff for my home bar, but I'll be damned if I'll find a place for fez-monkey paintings.

My wife loves tiki.  Our kitchen is decorated with a few skull and Easter Island glasses from the old Kahiki Supper Club in Columbus. Alas, it has been closed for over 8 years now.

Srsly, Tiki Kitsch isn't so highly desirable right now (kinda what your wife said about you) so it's reasonably priced. ebay has great bargains, and if you broke down and bought the wife a few tasteful gifts, she might put out more instead of just throwing old shoes at you. Just a thought.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10310
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,14:59   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,14:41)
Quote (Louis @ Feb. 24 2009,12:25)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,19:04)
   
Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,10:38)


My favorite bit would have to be the pufferfish inexplicably hanging from the ceiling.

That's my favourite bit too.

No, no, no. It's my favorite bit. Not my favourite.
:angry:

Colour me unimpressed with this colonial language masher. We reserve the right to retract your licence for the English language. There is a rumour you'll then have to speak French. You can honour the cheese eating surrender monkeys - the flavour and smell of garlic will be your armour if we invade again.

Its obviously information being destroyed, per ID theory. All mutations are harmful, yada yada SHARON'S ENTROMPY and SLOT VIOLATIONS.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Ra-Úl



Posts: 93
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,15:00   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,13:40)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,13:04)

My favorite bit would have to be the pufferfish inexplicably hanging from the ceiling.

For some reason, monkey-in-fez depictions have become a theme in Tiki art (thus the pufferfish) : http://www.monkeyskull.net/photos/voodoolounge/artists.htm . See the Dave Wong stuff.
I *like* tiki kitsch and I'm collecting Tiki-style stuff for my home bar, but I'll be damned if I'll find a place for fez-monkey paintings.

When (if) you come to Vegas I'll take you Frankie's Tiki Room. Home away from home, strange drinks and tiki decor by Bamboo Ben.

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Beauty is that which makes us desperate. - P Valery

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,15:38   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,14:56)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 24 2009,13:45)
 
Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,13:40)
I *like* tiki kitsch and I'm collecting Tiki-style stuff for my home bar, but I'll be damned if I'll find a place for fez-monkey paintings.

My wife loves tiki.  Our kitchen is decorated with a few skull and Easter Island glasses from the old Kahiki Supper Club in Columbus. Alas, it has been closed for over 8 years now.

Srsly, Tiki Kitsch isn't so highly desirable right now (kinda what your wife said about you) so it's reasonably priced. ebay has great bargains, and if you broke down and bought the wife a few tasteful gifts, she might put out more instead of just throwing old shoes at you. Just a thought.

Wait a minute? Are you telling me that throwing shoes isn't foreplay?

The Kahiki was wonderful.  Good Polynesian food and decorated within an inch of bad taste. Okay, decorated an inch into bad taste. One whole wall was a tropical fish tank and the opposite wall was an arboretum with tropical birds. Every ten minutes or so, they would flash the lights in the arboretum, play some thunder sounds, and run the misters. Ahh, good times.

Unfortunately, they got an offer for their property from Walgreens that they couldn't refuse. They closed and focused on their frozen food business. You can find Kahiki foods in the freezer case at most groceries, but it is just the typical Chinese fare. No Polynesian dishes.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1058
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,16:58   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 24 2009,08:57)
Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 24 2009,08:43)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 24 2009,08:35)
For larger type, a shorter message is called for... "That Was False" or just a great big "FALSE" might be even better.

In this time of vanishing resources and increasing expenses, don't we owe it to the world - and the kidz - to use less ink whrever possible?

I think that "LIE" is short, sweet, eco-friendly and true, and so should be used rather than "False".

My $.02

If you use "FALSE", then you aren't impugning the speaker's character, save the huffiness over pointing out ignorance. If you use "LIE", then you are likely to be ejected sooner. It depends on whether your goal is to inform the audience of untrue statements as they happen, or to get expelled as soon as possible. That will inform your choice of word.

Since the attack gerbil <waves at Casey> reads this, shouldn't we worry they'll expell anyone carrying placards as they enter his talks?  Perhaps we could get Prof. Dawkins to carry some in (he apparently has a cloaking device that works on creationists)?

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,17:06   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,12:56)
Srsly, Tiki Kitsch isn't so highly desirable right now (kinda what your wife said about you) so it's reasonably priced. ebay has great bargains, and if you broke down and bought the wife a few tasteful gifts, she might put out more

Don't worry, Louis's wife puts out plenty. Trust me.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,17:34   

Quote

Since the attack gerbil <waves at Casey> reads this, shouldn't we worry they'll expell anyone carrying placards as they enter his talks?


They don't seem to pay attention to anything else I say, so why should this be any different?

:-)

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,17:51   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,23:06)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,12:56)
Srsly, Tiki Kitsch isn't so highly desirable right now (kinda what your wife said about you) so it's reasonably priced. ebay has great bargains, and if you broke down and bought the wife a few tasteful gifts, she might put out more

Don't worry, Louis's wife puts out plenty. Trust me.

You seem to have confused my wife with your mother. That means your lack of ability to see is only matched by your lack of ability to think. Crikey. Blind and stoopid, Arden, a veritable twofer from Dame Nature {shakes head}. My pity, you has it. At least 'Ras has an excuse, that many years on the pipe will do that to a...a...ok I'm going to go with "man" because "anthropoid" might upset the orang utans and I quite like them.

Louis

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Bye.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 24 2009,19:35   

My Night with the Discovery Institute, Continued

Notes:
Lecture black. My comments red


Casey Luskin, MS JD Esq. on Kitzmiller v Dover and Academic Freedom


>    Judge Jones said there was no ID testing and research.  But if you look at the trial transcript, Scott Minnich was asked if he used ID concepts and principles in his research and he answered affirmatively.  Minnich described the knockout experiments that he did with the bacterial flagellum.  I have to say I have never found the knock-out experiment a real compelling argument against evolution.  It seems to presume that whatever is being experimented on currently performs the same function as all its predecessors.  I think there is ample evidence this assumption is unwarranted.  I will say this though, Minnich does get point from me for a sense of humor. His response to Jones comment about having seen the bac. flag before was hilarious: "I kind of feel like Zsa Zsa Gabor's fifth husband. As the old adage goes, I know what to do, but I just can't make it exciting."

>  Sig worthy material alert: Luskin said Talkorigins is a great website.

>    Luskin talked about ongoing work at the Biologic Institute on Stylus that is similar to what Lenski did with Avida. They are also doing work related to functional and design constraints and cosmic design. Guillermo Gonzalez is on staff at the Biologic Institute now.

>    Judge Jones stated that there is no positive case for ID and it employs the same "flawed dualism". But, what is the definition of intelligent design?
      a.   So complex, evolution can't create it.
      b.   Some things are so complex that they are best explained by an intelligent cause.

>    Casey tells us it is b!  

>    Charles Lyell - uniformitarianism - can study what is happening today and can apply it to the past. The present is the key to the past.  The creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity. Luskin references Henry Quastler a famous information theorist and in an odd moment he tells us that Quastler commit suicide. Not sure why that is relevant.

>    Specified complexity - Steven Meyers article in PBSW.Didn't we already cover this?

>   Scientific method of the Design Inference.  Observation --> Hypotheses --> Experiment --> Conclusion.  Can add Peer review and replication if you want.
     o   Hypothesis - if something is designed it will have high CSI
     o   Experiment - High CSI - Irreducibly complex (knockout experiments and simulations.
     o    Conclusion - Design!>   Just once I'd like to see someone actually calculate CSI.  The only one I have ever get close was Sal Cordova over at the sciphishow.com and he ran away before I could even turn on my calculator.

>   Even Dawkins admits there is appearance of design for a purpose. If he can make the claim, why can't we?

>  You may not agree, but you cannot claim this is faith. Dembskit got it from the data.How about you, Casey, want to take a crack at calculating CSI? Dembski doesn't seem to want to delve into pathetic levels of detail. Maybe as the Junior ID scientist you could do the grunt work
                     

>   Dembski predicted that we'd find functions for junk DNA

>   He references the Wells article in the November 2004 issue of PCID  Using Intelligent Design Theory to Guide Scientific Research. Abstract:
   
Quote
Intelligent Design theory (ID) can contribute to science on at least two levels. On one level, ID is concerned with inferring from the evidence whether a given feature of the world is designed. This is the level on which William Dembski's explanatory filter and Michael Behe's concept of irreducible complexity operate. It is also the level that has received the most attention in recent years, largely because the existence of even one intelligently designed feature in living things (at least prior to human beings) would overturn the Darwinian theory of evolution that currently dominates Western biology.

On another level, ID could function as a "metatheory," providing a conceptual framework for scientific research. By suggesting testable hypotheses about features of the world that have been systematically neglected by older metatheories (such as Darwin's), and by leading to the discovery of new features, ID could indirectly demonstrate its scientific fruitfulness.


>    So, how many new features have been discovered using an ID metatheory?  Bueller?  Bueller?

>    He references a Sternberg paper in the Annals of the NY Academy of Science, but I didn't catch the subject.

>    Balakirev and Ayala in Genetics 37:123-151 (2003).  This article is apparently about pseudogenes. Apparently, ID predicted this.

>    Gibbs in Scientific American 11/2003 about introns that were thought to be junk, but weren't. ID apparently predicted this too.

>    This is science stopping!  It is medicine stopping!  HE contends that an ID paradigm would have lead to these discoveries earlier.  Of course, it is those darn, dirty Darwinists that are discovering all this stuff. If you paradigm is better, Casey, then discover something already.  If you get Doug Axe, Minnich, or Behe to discover something important with implications for medicine, I am willing to bet that the private sector medical community will beat a path to your door with a truckload of money.

>    90% of what Judge Jones wrote in his decision came directly from the ACLU. It isn't plagiarism. Judges can and do incorporate like this, but it is discouraged because of the overzealous advocacy of lawyers.

>     The stack of papers put in front of Behe on the stand was what his immunology friends call a literature bluff. None of them provided the detailed step-by-step path that Behe was looking for. I think Behe first asked for possible pathways and only moved to detailed step-by-step after possible pathways emerged.

>     The bluff worked because Jones didn't read any of those papers.  Neither did Behe. That is the point.

>     Judge Jones said there was no peer reviewed research.  Minnich had 7-10 papers and it was all in the briefs submitted to Jones.  But he ignored all of it.

>     This was the end of the discussion of KvD. Luskin moved on to academic freedom. But there was one point in the academic freedom discussion that Casey returned to KvD. So I am going to pull it up into this section. I'll probably refer to it again in context.

>      Luskin stated that some anti-ID legal scholars like Jay Wexler said that it was wrong for Judge Jones to decide on the question of whether ID was science or not. He says that the plaintiffs asked the judge to decide this.  Luskin forgot to mention that the defendants attorney, Richard Thompson, also asked Jones to decide that issue.

Tomorrow: Academic freedom, but not for tits.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,08:32   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 23 2009,18:16)
ABBIE! ABBIE! ABBIE! ABBIE!

I just got word of this:

 
Quote
Michael Behe to Speak on Intelligent Design
2/20/2009 11:04:20 AM
Print E-Mail

Lehigh University biochemistry professor and author Michael Behe will present "Answering Objections to the Argument for Intelligent Design in Biology" at 7 p.m. on Thursday, Feb. 26 in the Cultural Arts Building Beckwith Recital Hall.

Behe is known for developing the concept of irreducible complexity. His provocative book, Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, was a major catalyst in the emergence of the intelligent design movement. His theory of irreducible complexity is defined as "a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning."

Behe graduated from Drexel University in 1974 with a B.S. in chemistry and then earned his Ph. D. in biochemistry from the University of Pennsylvania in 1978. Since then, he has published more than 35 articles in biochemical journals, as well as written editorial features in the Boston Review, American Spectator and the New York Times. His book, Darwin's Black Box, was recently named by the National Review and World magazine as one of the 100 most important books of the 20th century. This event is free and no tickets are required. For more information, contact event host Donald Furst, professor of art, at x23440.


UNC Wilmington is about an hour from here. It's where Doc got his master's, and where I'm going after Coastal.

Guess who's going to see your boyfriend?

Yup, bo'fus. I'll of course be reporting here.

(It's awful funny that he was invited by the art department, though, ain't it? How come the Biology department didn't invite him, I wonder? I'll ask him.)

Yep, yep,

I have been waiting a month for this, ever since I missed Eugenie Scott's visit in Jan(frakkin work).  If I can't be a Eugenie groupie then I can be a Hehe heckler :)

Paul

ps you have a pm

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,19:13   

My Night with the Discovery Institute, Part the Last

Notes:
Lecture black. My comments red


Casey Luskin, MS JD Esq. on Kitzmiller v Dover and Academic Freedom


>    Luskin begins his talk on academic freedom by showing a graphic for Expelled.  He says the persecution is real, because if it wasn't, he wouldn't have a job.  Part of his job is to provide defense and assist in the defense of such persecution victims.  Luskin was admitted to the California Bar in November 2005 and remains an active member.  This means, at a minimum he pays his annual dues and complies with Continuing Legal Education requirements of 25 hours every 3 years.  Luskin is not a member of the Washington State Bar.  To join the WA Bar he would either need to take and pass the WA Bar Exam or qualify for admission under a reciprocity agreement. I think he went to the DI right after law school, so it is unlikely that he would qualify under reciprocity.

>  Guillermo Gonzalez was a Cuban refugee.  He was persecuted at ISU, where he had 65 peer review papers published. I believe GG sctually had 65 papers published over the course of his entire academic career, not just at ISU.  As stated, Luskin did imply that it was 65 papers at ISU.  It was one sentence and could have been mangled in the telling.

>    He was told it was a mistake to publish The Privileged Planet and it would factor into his tenure decision.  His colleagues were against him because of it.

>    Luskin references a newspaper article where John Hauptman states  ""I participated in the initial vote and voted no, based on this fundamental question: What is science? "

>     He shows a quote from Hector Avalos that reads "ID...has now established a presence...at ISU"The ellipsis caught my eye. I looked a but further into the quote and I have read Avalos response, but didn't find his defense particularly compelling

>    Joerg Schmalian: "If we go on record, we give Gonzalez a clear sign that his ID efforts will not be considered as science by the faculty."   and also something from John Harmon about how GG should know that they are not going to count his ID work for him in tenure decision.  Basically, what Luskin wants us to think here is that GG's ID work was a negative to his tenure application.  That may be so, but it could also be read that his ID work was considered a nullity.

>    He talks about how Eli Rosenberg, department chair, instructed voting members of the tenure committee to make ID a litmus test in the decision and his support for ID "disqualifies him from serving as a science educator."

>   KvD was cited by ISU in the report to the President on GG's tenure decision.  Luskin states that the DI gave warning to Judge Jones to not decide on the question of whether ID is science because it could have serious consequences.  The implication here is that JJ decision cost GG his job.  I don't find that compelling.  GG record of publications, raising grant money, and graduating students was poor after arrival at ISU.  That a judge half a continent away said ID isn't science was the least of GG problems.

>    Scott Minnich was also the victim of targetted discrimination.   A speech code was implemented at the U of Idaho stating that only evolution was appropriate to teach. Context anyone?  A lot of organizations have statements regarding what is considered to be part of sound science education.  That hardly seems like a speech code.  Was there really a speech code put in at U of Idaho or is Luskin just trying to push some buttons with the Baptists?

>  The next example of persecution was Rodney LeVake, who wanted to be a biology teacher for years.  However, he was demoted because he wanted to teach the strengths and weaknesses of evolution.  Actually, LeVake wanted to teach something other than the cirriculum approved by the school.

> LeVake sued the school district on the grounds that they violated his right of free speech, right of free exercise of religion, and due process. Right of free religious expression?  Are the pickings so thin that this is one of your poster children?

> To demonstrate the lack of academic freedom at the high school level, Luskin showed the following quote from a decision by the Minnesota Court of Appeals.    I find the use of this quote odd.  They are basically admitting that their boy was insubordinate.  Since you probably noticed the ellipsis in their as well, I pulled the missing text from the decision.  I don't think the missing text necessarily changes the idea that LeVake just didn't want to teach what was in teh curriculum.

                           
Quote


"The classroom is a 'marketplace of ideas,' and academic freedom should
be safeguarded. But LeVake, in his role as a public school teacher
rather than as a private citizen, wanted to discuss the criticisms of
evolution. LeVake's position paper established that he does not believe
the theory of evolution is credible. Further, LeVake's proposed method
of teaching evolution is in direct conflict with respondents' curriculum
requirements ... Based on LeVake's belief that evolution is not a viable
theory, respondents' concern about his inability to teach the prescribed
curriculum was well-founded."


>  The quote Luskin provided is damning enough.  For the sake of completeness, here is what was missing.
                           
Quote

See Clark v. Holmes, 474 F.2d 928, 931 (7th Cir. 1972) (recognizing teacher had no First Amendment right to override judgment of superiors regarding proper course content). Accordingly, the established curriculum  [*509]  and LeVake's responsibility as a public school teacher to teach evolution in the manner prescribed by the curriculum overrides his First Amendment rights as a private citizen. See Webster v. New Lenox Sch. Dist. No. 122, 917 F.2d 1004, 1007 (7th Cir. 1990) (recognizing compelling state interest in choice and adherence to suitable curriculum for benefit of young students overrides individual teachers' desire to teach what they please).



>  Academic freedom bills. Introduced in 6 states last year and 5 states this year.  And failed to pass in everyone except Louisiana. The Louisiana law charges the state education department to approve supplemental material that can be used to teach "strengths and weakness".  I am not aware that, to date the department

> The crucial section (Note the singular) in the bills (note the plural) is section F, which states that the bill only protects the teaching scientific info, not religion or non-religion.Is their sufficient evidence to assume all these bills evolved from a common ancestor?

>  Even the ACLU cannot deny the facial constitutionality. The problem comes in when someone starts to teach weaknesses that have antecedents in creationist literature and no scientific support.

>  In reference to the LA bill, it says what is taught can't be religion.  He then apparently quotes Barry Lynn of Americans United. The phrases quoted are chosen to make Lynn look bad " laughingstock of world", "Smelly crap" Luskin asks the rhetoical question "How can you argue against such logic?"Casey seems to have forgotten to mention that it is Reverend Barry Lynn. Wouldn't want anyone to know their nemesis is a preacher.  That will just not do.

>  Luskin talked about how to OU professors circulated a flyer about the recent bill.  They apparently called it a Trojan Horse Bill and said those professors were engaging in fearmongering, conspiracy theories, and scare tactics. Thus proving the need for Academic Freedom Bills.  He also said that they said something about lawsuits resulting from the LA bill, but there are no lawsuites. Are there no lawsuits because there is no approved material for teaching "strengths and weaknesses?"

>  Luskin states "Ladies and Gentleman of the supposed jury, I rest my case!"  Seriously, his whole case wasn't even as coherent as the Chewbacca Defense.

>  Casey goes on to make a further case for Academic Freedom by showing that Darwinists are mean.  He brings up slides with regard to ERV's treatment of a troll involving disemvowelling and the joke "Tits or STFU" and claims that this is not free and open debate! It is a freaking blog, Casey. It isn't a classroom, a laboratory, a journal, or a scientific conference. A blog.  

>  At this point, he puts up a slide showing all the nasty things that people have said about him here.Casey, you really need to get over yourself. We say worse things to each other and we like each other.  Except that homo Chatfield.

>  He mentions the Pennock column in US News that says the IDers don't deserve civility.

>  But he forgives us! Especially you, Wes! He was very much Master Thespian. Way too grandiloquent for me to take seriously, but maybe everyone else just realized what a nice young Christian man he is.

>  He closes with a plea for free speech, civility, and peaceful coexistence in the Academy.  

Q&A

> Q & A was basically a disaster. There were already 6 or so Trinity members lined up by the microphone when Casey finished.  Abbie cut to the front of the line (How rude!) to offer a defense.  There was alot of cross-talk and the lower volume of the Q&A mike might have made it difficult for her to be understood. I heard Abbie try and discuss how poorly she was treated at UD and by Behe. She was obviously upset.  At the time, I wasn't watching Luskin to see how he was reacting. I was watching host Don Ewert who was visibly angry and demanding that Abbie yield the microphone. I don't know if Ewert will ever read this, but if he does I want him to know that I think poorly of him. Even if Luskin was right and we are all mean nasty oppressors, and Abbie is a Super-King-Kamehameha bitch, human decency would dictate that, after Luskin attacked a person in the audience, the person would have the opportunity to respond.  Ewert, you are no gentleman. This puts in clear relief just how interested you are in free and open exchanges. In short, you aren't.    

>  Casey states "res ipso loquitor".  After seeing your assassination of Abbie and your apparent unwillingness to allow her opportunity to respond, all I can say is: Indeed, it does.

As a conclusion, this all reminded me of December 2007 when Abbie was dusting it up with Behe and the knotheads over at UD.  I had a PM exchange with an ID cheerleader in which they expressed their disappointment in me for defending Abbie. Here is what I said then and it is still true today.
             
Quote
But allow me the privilege of stating clearly why I feel the way I do.  Sure, ERV is a bitch. So what? She is dedicating her life to working towards a cure for a horrible disease that afflicts millions.  That scores alot of points in my book.  While I don't expect folks like Sal or Behe to actively participate in that effort, they should at least not hinder the progress of those that do.  But they won't do that. In addition to spreading demonstrable falsehoods, they want to destroy the science education system that has produced the cures for polio and many other such diseases.  A system that will, God willing, produce a cure for AIDS someday.

You will undoubtedly say you don't see it that way. You will say that you think the ID folks are onto something. Fine, maybe they do have a better way. Then it is high time that they stop publishing mass market books [and lobbying legislatures] and get on with curing diseases. Who's hands are you willing to put your families lives in?  Me, I will take a single potty mouthed bitch who is working cure a disease any day over a roomful of IDers who can't seem to get beyond heckling her.  


And that is all I have to say about that.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
khan



Posts: 1484
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,19:33   

Dear carlsonjok:

I appreciate your efforts, and your exposure of the steaming pile of manure that is DI.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,19:43   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 25 2009,19:13)
     
Quote
But allow me the privilege of stating clearly why I feel the way I do.  Sure, ERV is a bitch. So what? She is dedicating her life to working towards a cure for a horrible disease that afflicts millions.  That scores alot of points in my book.  While I don't expect folks like Sal or Behe to actively participate in that effort, they should at least not hinder the progress of those that do.  But they won't do that. In addition to spreading demonstrable falsehoods, they want to destroy the science education system that has produced the cures for polio and many other such diseases.  A system that will, God willing, produce a cure for AIDS someday.

You will undoubtedly say you don't see it that way. You will say that you think the ID folks are onto something. Fine, maybe they do have a better way. Then it is high time that they stop publishing mass market books [and lobbying legislatures] and get on with curing diseases. Who's hands are you willing to put your families lives in?  Me, I will take a single potty mouthed bitch who is working cure a disease any day over a roomful of IDers who can't seem to get beyond heckling her.  


And that is all I have to say about that.

Carlson - Excellent!  Thank for the effort and the summaries.

And your final wrap up is a keeper!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,19:49   

Creationists: SHES A BITCH!

Carlson: Yeah, but shes our bitch.  *cocks gun* So cut her the hell down.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,19:57   

Quote (ERV @ Feb. 25 2009,19:49)
Creationists: SHES A BITCH!

Carlson: Yeah, but shes our bitch.  *cocks gun* So cut her the hell down.

Damn Straight!

And we all know you would cut through 1,000,000 IDers to rescue us.  And smile while you were doing it.

Thanks Abbie.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
k.e..



Posts: 3000
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,21:18   

carlsonjok....

What can I say?


You have more integrity, honesty, guts and balls in your left little finger nail than the whole of the DI crew will ever accumulate in their collective lifetimes....

..you should write a book!!!! hahahahaha.

But why just limit ID's critique to just their zero output on cures for disease, even with their "Theory of Miracles" included? Why not weather forecasting, air crash investigation and the obesity epidemic?

Perhaps Behe could give us all the theory of "Reading the mind of God".....(dead or alive) and what that predicts for the future?

.....Hint Behe, in most circles that's called sticking your head up your own ass and smelling roses.

Maybe Luskin could give us the curative benefits and possible windfall profits with the "Practical Application of the DI Wedge".

Think of the positive gains vis-à-vis curing homosexuality in Fundamentalist Preachers and radical conservative Politicians?

With Luskin's lead, even they will feel confortable in front of large crowds lying about "forgiveness" ....but don't forget to (oh so humbly) vote for them and send money to keep their sorry ass' off the streets so they don't have to do real work for a living.

ERV  gets even higher praise from me for sheer fightn' spirit and tenacity in the face of that particularly mendacious DI shitshower.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1015
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,21:30   

Great job Carlsonjok!

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
paragwinn



Posts: 410
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,21:34   

carlsonjok:

">    Scott Minnich was also the victim of targetted discrimination.   A speech code was implemented at the U of Idaho stating that only evolution was appropriate to teach. Context anyone?  A lot of organizations have statements regarding what is considered to be part of sound science education.  That hardly seems like a speech code.  Was there really a speech code put in at U of Idaho or is Luskin just trying to push some buttons with the Baptists?"

Maybe this letter from the President of U of Idaho will clarify that point.

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
paragwinn



Posts: 410
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2009,21:49   

Quote (k.e.. @ Feb. 25 2009,21:18)
carlsonjok....

What can I say?


You have more integrity, honesty, guts and balls in your left little finger nail than the whole of the DI crew will ever accumulate in their collective lifetimes....

[snip]

ERV  gets even higher praise from me for sheer fightn' spirit and tenacity in the face of that particularly mendacious DI shitshower.

I second those emotions!

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2009,01:56   

Quote
There is a rumour you'll then have to speak French. You can honour the cheese eating surrender monkeys - the flavour and smell of garlic will be your armour if we invade again.


Hey!  :angry:

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1967
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2009,02:03   

Quote (ERV @ Feb. 25 2009,17:49)
Creationists: SHES A BITCH!

Carlson: "Yeah, but shes our bitch.  *cocks gun* So cut her the hell down."

That's the truth, babe.

I once got between a grading contractor and one of my archaeology crew. I told the contractor, "YOU do not ever come down on MY crew. I, and only I, come down on MY crew. YOU have a PROBLEM? Then your problem is with ME! AND MOTHER FUCKER, YOU DO NOT WANT A PROBLEM WITH ME."

I was much younger then.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
AmandaHuginKiss



Posts: 150
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2009,03:51   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Feb. 26 2009,19:03)
Quote (ERV @ Feb. 25 2009,17:49)
Creationists: SHES A BITCH!

Carlson: "Yeah, but shes our bitch.  *cocks gun* So cut her the hell down."

That's the truth, babe.

I once got between a grading contractor and one of my archaeology crew. I told the contractor, "YOU do not ever come down on MY crew. I, and only I, come down on MY crew. YOU have a PROBLEM? Then your problem is with ME! AND MOTHER FUCKER, YOU DO NOT WANT A PROBLEM WITH ME."

I was much younger then.

My husband once did something similar. I was so proud I had tears in my eyes and could barely see to pick his teeth up from the ground.

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2009,07:49   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 24 2009,15:59)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,14:41)
 
Quote (Louis @ Feb. 24 2009,12:25)
     
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 24 2009,19:04)
       
Quote (deadman_932 @ Feb. 24 2009,10:38)


My favorite bit would have to be the pufferfish inexplicably hanging from the ceiling.

That's my favourite bit too.

No, no, no. It's my favorite bit. Not my favourite.
:angry:

Colour me unimpressed with this colonial language masher. We reserve the right to retract your licence for the English language. There is a rumour you'll then have to speak French. You can honour the cheese eating surrender monkeys - the flavour and smell of garlic will be your armour if we invade again.

Its obviously information being destroyed, per ID theory. All mutations are harmful, yada yada SHARON'S ENTROMPY and SLOT VIOLATIONS.

You mean it's your perogative?

:p

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
DNARules



Posts: 1
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2009,09:01   

I wrote the "fear-mongering flier" Luskin mentioned in his talk and has discussed on the DI website.  This was distributed to no more than 10 Senators, Representatives, or their staff during our discussions about the SB320 legislation.  One of these quickly sent a copy to the OU student paper staff.  The DI soon obtained a copy.  Think there is a connection?  

We did err when stating that lawsuits had been filed in Louisiana and have changed two words to reflect that they have not been filed yet.  Otherwise we stand by it.  Below is the compete text if anyone is interested.
 
---------------------
Oppose SB 320, the “Science Education and Academic Freedom Act”

SB320, authored by Sen. Randy Brogdon of Owasso, has significant potential to harm the education of our students and the future economic security of our state.  This bill is designed to cast doubt on science as a valid way of understanding the world and to promote ideas based on religious faith as if they were valid alternatives to well established science.  

SB 320 contains the following language:
The Legislature further finds that the teaching of some scientific subjects, such as biological evolution, the chemical origins of life, global warming, and human cloning, can cause controversy . . . teachers shall be permitted to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of existing scientific theories pertinent to the course being taught.

This bill is modeled after similar bills promoted by the Discovery Institute, an organization intent on teaching creationist “intelligent design” in schools.  A nearly identical bill was passed last year by the state of Louisiana and such bills have recently been introduced in several other states.  Newer versions of the text have added  “the chemical origins of life, global warming, and human cloning”, apparently to broaden the notion of controversy, but the real target is clearly evolution.  This is a “Trojan horse” bill intended to open the door for the teaching of specific religious concepts in school science classes.

What harm is there in teaching “strengths and weaknesses”?  
Promoting the notion that there is some scientific controversy is just plain dishonest.  There isn't one.  Evolution as a process is supported by an enormous and continually growing body of evidence.  Evolutionary theory has advanced substantially since Darwin's time and, despite 150 years of direct research, no evidence in conflict with evolution has ever been found.  The fact that evolution has occurred is accepted by virtually all scientists around the world and is as well established as the fact that the Earth is round.  
There really are no scientific “weaknesses”.  If one looks to the sources of these alleged weaknesses, we find they are phony fabrications, invented and promoted by people who don't like evolution.  One may not agree with the use of atomic weapons but that does not mean that there is some controversy over the physics or that one may simply reject the science as flawed.  
Instead of teaching science, this approach teaches our children that it is acceptable to simply ignore the parts of science they don't happen to like.  Incorporating creationist arguments into the science curriculum will effectively condone their tactics and teach students that it is acceptable in science to: use illogical arguments, ignore evidence or simply deny that it exists, promote untestable ideas, selectively misquote scientists to support your point, support ideas with intuition and faith - they're just as good as evidence, cultivate and exploit misunderstandings, and assume that the popularity of ideas among the public verifies their scientific validity.  This will not only confuse students' understanding of science, it will undermine their entire education.  
Discussing the alleged strengths and weaknesses implies that so-called alternatives to evolution should also be taught.  The most popular “alternative”, known as “intelligent design”, is dressed in scientific language but is not scientific and is not a valid alternative to evolution.  Intelligent design proponents claim to be performing research on intelligent design.  Yet no scientific evidence supporting intelligent design has ever been provided.  In fact, no means for obtaining such evidence has even been proposed.  This is because intelligent design assumes a supernatural designer and there is no way to scientifically test supernatural phenomena.  Intelligent design is by definition an idea based on faith or personal belief, unsuitable for science classes.
The “academic freedom” and “strengths and weaknesses” language represent the latest tactics of creationists, whose efforts to have their specific religion taught as science in public schools have been repeatedly thwarted in the courts.  Despite the clever language of such bills, the religious motivation of the Discovery Institute is obvious and their stated short-range goals, among others, include: “To defeat scientific materialism” and “To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science”.  A primary strategy of the Discovery Institute is to promote teaching intelligent design in schools through legislation.  This tactic effectively bypasses scientists who actually work in the relevant fields, and appeals directly to state legislators, state curriculum committees, local school boards, and their constituencies.
Part of the strategy involves promoting an unnecessary dichotomy between religious faith and science.  This exploits the common misconception that to accept scientific evidence (for topics such as evolution) one must necessarily be an atheist and promotes the ridiculous notion that the scientists of the world are involved in a vast materialist/atheist conspiracy.  Ironically, the vast majority of religions of the world, including most forms of Christianity, find no inherent conflict between science and religious belief.  
Opposition to SB320 is not anti-religious.  Science cannot address issues of faith and morality; therefore, by definition, science cannot support or conflict with any religion.  A majority of scientists, including many who study evolution, are people of faith.  There is certainly no problem teaching the cultural and historical aspects of religion in schools as long as they are not presented as science or in a way that promotes one specific religion over others.  
SB 320 will lead to lawsuits that cost taxpayers money.  In Louisiana school districts have faced serious problems implementing the law and the prospect of costly lawsuits filed over its constitutionality.  A 2005 federal trial over the teaching of intelligent design in Dover, Pennsylvania cost the local school district over one million dollars in legal fees.  
Undermining science education will have detrimental effects on the prosperity of the state. A scientifically literate population can make informed decisions on important issues of our time such as on healthcare and the environment and can contribute to efficient discovery and use of energy resources, provide for competitive advantages in agricultural production, and make advances in biomedicine.  This leads directly to increased economic growth and will help attract additional high-tech, energy-based, and med-tech industries to Oklahoma.  Gov. Sebelius and the presidents of state universities in Kansas have specifically acknowledged the negative economic impacts of the creationist-lead decline of science standards in their state.  
SB320 makes the completely baseless association between academic freedom and freedom to teach religion in classes that are not about religion.  Ultimately, forcing teachers to present the “strengths and weaknesses” will force them to pretend that we know less than we really do about the natural world and to present ideas based in one specific religion as if they were science.  The issue is not about fairness or free inquiry; it is about science vs. nonscience.  The bill does not promote academic freedom, rather academic misconduct.  

Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education – www.oklascience.org

  
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