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  Topic: Walter ReMine's Message Theory, A testable ID alternative to Darwinism?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,17:18   

Walter ReMine posting at UD says:
       
Quote
Message Theory is a testable scientific explanation of life’s major patterns
   
Quote
Message Theory is testable science, and macro-evolutionary theory (as practiced by its modern proponents) is not. I employ testability – the same tool evolutionists use in all their court cases – to turn the tables on evolutionists.

a-testable-id-alternative-to-darwinism-part-1

Yes, because "evolutionists" know that court is where science really happens. I sense Walter is thinking this is a tool that can be used in court.

The first two drones to speak up say:
     
Quote
Where would one go to find out what message theory is.

and
     
Quote
Message Theory sounds like some arm of Information Theory, but I’ve been unable to find any reference to it in the math literature.

The answer to "what is message theory" I suspect can only be fully explained in the book form.

And "math literature"? They only count up to three at bible university.

Still, like Walter says
     
Quote
Message Theory is about life’s data – many observations that must be explained – and Message Theory explains those observations in a testable (falsifiable, vulnerable, empirically risky) manner. It meets all the criteria for a scientific theory.

So lets give it a fair chance eh?  ;)

I just created a new thread to separate it out from the UD chaos, just in case it comes up again in future. Like in a court case. Hopefully.
Quote
So let me pause to underscore this for my readers: If you do not value testability highly, then leave now, or you will only waste your time, and mine.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,17:54   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Feb. 16 2009,17:29)
 
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 16 2009,15:01)
   
Quote (damitall @ Feb. 16 2009,14:41)
Tardstorm warning!

Walter ReMine and his dratted Biotic Message have surfaced!
Peepses
Batten down yer baramins!

You gotta love the reviews, from here.
       
Quote
"Apart from the Bible I've never been so enthralled by a book in all my life!"
Christopher Chaney, Horseheads, New York

Has he updated anything?  Or is this just a "buy my book!!" push for the same rancid horseshit he self-published over 15 years ago?

Apparently not..
 
Quote
In 1982 he began eleven years of laborious research, culminating in his treatise, The Biotic Message.
Copyright © 1997-2007 Saint Paul Science Inc., All Rights Reserved.

 So, he finished his "research" in 1991 and has been waiting 18 years for the "right moment" to publish :p

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,18:39   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Feb. 16 2009,17:54)
Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Feb. 16 2009,17:29)
   
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 16 2009,15:01)
     
Quote (damitall @ Feb. 16 2009,14:41)
Tardstorm warning!

Walter ReMine and his dratted Biotic Message have surfaced!
Peepses
Batten down yer baramins!

You gotta love the reviews, from here.
       
Quote
"Apart from the Bible I've never been so enthralled by a book in all my life!"
Christopher Chaney, Horseheads, New York

Has he updated anything?  Or is this just a "buy my book!!" push for the same rancid horseshit he self-published over 15 years ago?

Apparently not..
 
Quote
In 1982 he began eleven years of laborious research, culminating in his treatise, The Biotic Message.
Copyright © 1997-2007 Saint Paul Science Inc., All Rights Reserved.

 So, he finished his "research" in 1991 and has been waiting 18 years for the "right moment" to publish :p

Good research - by you!

I think "Walter ReMine" translated to Doofus Language is "Walt Brown."

But I am going to have to wait for FTK's in-depth analysis.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,18:42   

OMFG:
Quote
23. Cosmological Issues

     The biotic message is first and foremost a biological theory, yet this chapter briefly examines how geological and cosmological evidences add additional support. Chief among these is the rather curious situation that the fossil record — mostly of marine organisms in sedimentary rocks — is stacked up high and dry on land starring at us. This record is unavoidable, even on the highest mountains. That is a curious and unexpected situation for a natural planet. Yet this fortuitous situation is absolutely essential for the success of the biotic message.

:O (speechless)

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,18:57   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Feb. 16 2009,23:18)
The answer to "what is message theory" I suspect can only be fully explained in the book form.

CreationWiki:
 
Quote
The Central Claim of Message Theory:
Life was reasonably designed for survival and for communicating a message that tells where life came from. The biotic message says, "Life is the product of a single designer - life was intentionally designed to resist all other explanations". The Biotic Message, page 20

So, it's the intelligent biotic message sender "theory".
If you wanted to know more (but why would you) there's this exhausting ARN book review. The reviewer thinks ReMine is too progressive....
 
Quote
And then ReMine omits any reference to Flood geology—which can explain the general patterns seen in the fossils without resorting to the contrivance of planned sequential release of newly-created organisms. It’s sad that ReMine resorts to this ‘progressive creationist’ approach. It mars an otherwise very good work.


--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,18:59   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 16 2009,18:39)

Apparently not..
         
Quote
In 1982 he began eleven years of laborious research, culminating in his treatise, The Biotic Message.
Copyright © 1997-2007 Saint Paul Science Inc., All Rights Reserved.

 So, he finished his "research" in 1991 1993 and has been waiting 18 16 years for the "right moment" to publish :p

And apparently I can't add. ???

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,19:01   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Feb. 16 2009,18:42)
OMFG:
 
Quote
23. Cosmological Issues

     The biotic message is first and foremost a biological theory, yet this chapter briefly examines how geological and cosmological evidences add additional support. Chief among these is the rather curious situation that the fossil record — mostly of marine organisms in sedimentary rocks — is stacked up high and dry on land starring at us. This record is unavoidable, even on the highest mountains. That is a curious and unexpected situation for a natural planet. Yet this fortuitous situation is absolutely essential for the success of the biotic message.

:O (speechless)

He's gonna want to lead us all in a chorus of "Go Tell It On The Mountain" any minute now...

and I think that by the time he is inevitably banned at UD, he's gonna make Walt Brown look like Einstein...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
steve_h



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,19:02   

Quote
Message Theory – A testable ID alternative to Darwinism
Strange, many of those glowing reviews from people who know what they are talking about seem to indicate that this ID alternative is some sort of creationist creationist creationist cdesign propensists creationist meisterwerk.

edit: inadvertently came to the wrong conclusion there.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,20:07   

All this made me go read Wikipedia's page on Haldane's Dilemma again. That page never looks the same from one visit to the next!

Reading the discussion panel was fun. Hilarious to see WalterR talk about himself in the third person.

Did you know that DaveScot was banned from Wikipedia? Is there any way to collect all of his trolling comments, a sort of "Collected Wit and Slightly Cheezy Poof Dusted Wisdom"? That would be a comedy gold mine...

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,20:28   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 16 2009,20:07)
All this made me go read Wikipedia's page on Haldane's Dilemma again. That page never looks the same from one visit to the next!

Reading the discussion panel was fun. Hilarious to see WalterR talk about himself in the third person.

Did you know that DaveScot was banned from Wikipedia? Is there any way to collect all of his trolling comments, a sort of "Collected Wit and Slightly Cheezy Poof Dusted Wisdom"? That would be a comedy gold mine...

Got any more details on the DaveScott banning to share with the class?

Was it because:

1.) He insisted in the face of overwhelming evidense to the contrary that Geoge W Bush was the Greatest President Ever
2.) He got Cheesy Poof stains on their front page
3.) They didn't need any Wike editors whose qualifications consisted of over-bearing, power-crazed behavior coupled with an inability to play well with others.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,20:37   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Feb. 16 2009,17:54)
Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Feb. 16 2009,17:29)
   
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 16 2009,15:01)
     
Quote (damitall @ Feb. 16 2009,14:41)
Tardstorm warning!

Walter ReMine and his dratted Biotic Message have surfaced!
Peepses
Batten down yer baramins!

You gotta love the reviews, from here.
       
Quote
"Apart from the Bible I've never been so enthralled by a book in all my life!"
Christopher Chaney, Horseheads, New York

Has he updated anything?  Or is this just a "buy my book!!" push for the same rancid horseshit he self-published over 15 years ago?

Apparently not..
 
Quote
In 1982 he began eleven years of laborious research, culminating in his treatise, The Biotic Message.
Copyright © 1997-2007 Saint Paul Science Inc., All Rights Reserved.

 So, he finished his "research" in 1991 and has been waiting 18 years for the "right moment" to publish :p

ReMine's  a creepy* self-promoting shyster.  Question his claims and he accuses you of "posturing."  Ask him to support a claim, he says it is "in my book."  If you read his book and point out something silly, like how he claims it takes more than 500,000 beneficial mutations to get a 'sapien from a simian', he accuses you of 'misrepresenting' him.  Make him a 'moderator' of a discussion board to entice him to stick around, and he makes Davescot look like a gentleman.

He's showed up on email groups (a ggogle Mormon gourp, and sci.bio.evolution) posing as 'fans' of himself, talking about himself in the third person, and when he gets caught, he just goes on as if nothing happened.

His monumental ego has garnered him a small legion of dimwitted followers, who are - lucky for him - ignorant of the issues involved in his claims and find him hero-like in his stature.

As far as Message "Theory" being testable and such, well, I wonder why he's not tested it.  There are no such tests in his book.


*I came across a weird google group several years ago - Laotian refugees or some such thing - while googling ReMine.  One of the people on the group, a young Laotian woman, had apparently rented an apartment from ReMine, who had left copies of his book out for her to see - opened to certain pages - and he would show up 'unexpectedly' to discuss it with her.  That was weird - but she actually seemd OK with it.  Which seemed weirder...

  
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,20:41   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 16 2009,20:07)
All this made me go read Wikipedia's page on Haldane's Dilemma again. That page never looks the same from one visit to the next!

Reading the discussion panel was fun. Hilarious to see WalterR talk about himself in the third person.

Isn't that weird?  Who talks about themsleves in the third person, besides that nutjob on Seinfeld (Jimmy)?

it is bad enough that ReMine does this when he is pretending to be someone else, to do it while you sign your own name is just plain odd.

He also seems to practically live on that Wiki page.  Musn't let anyone correct his errors or point out his ignorance.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,21:00   

Quote (slpage @ Feb. 16 2009,20:41)
Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 16 2009,20:07)
All this made me go read Wikipedia's page on Haldane's Dilemma again. That page never looks the same from one visit to the next!

Reading the discussion panel was fun. Hilarious to see WalterR talk about himself in the third person.

Isn't that weird?  Who talks about themsleves in the third person, besides that nutjob on Seinfeld (Jimmy)?

it is bad enough that ReMine does this when he is pretending to be someone else, to do it while you sign your own name is just plain odd.

He also seems to practically live on that Wiki page.  Musn't let anyone correct his errors or point out his ignorance.

Erasmus would never do that.

Well I for one was too tickled to say all that IDist/Creationist hyphenation on the UD post.  I can't believe they let him post that.  Hi-freakin-larious.  Truly one for the ages.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2009,21:30   

Oh, those internets...

I think I just discovered a keen way to argue against ReMine's claims - by using his own words!

ReMine wrote in 2002:
Quote

Let me again emphasize the key point.  Haldane's Dilemma puts a limit on the rate of beneficial substitution. It places no limit whatever on the rate of non-beneficial substitution -- substitutions that are harmful, neutral, or inert (i.e. unexpressed). These changes are abundant in nature, and extremely rapid. For example, x-ray a population and watch the "genetic diversity" rapidly increase. In these ways, "genetic diversity" can arise extremely rapidly, and that does not lessen the problem of Haldane's Dilemma. They are largely separate issues.


Well, OK - most of the mutations producing phenotypic changes that lead to human evolution from an ape-like ancestor were NOT beneficial.  Simple as that.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1240
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,08:15   

Quote (slpage @ Feb. 16 2009,21:30)
Well, OK - most of the mutations producing phenotypic changes that lead to human evolution from an ape-like ancestor were NOT beneficial.  Simple as that.

Especially if you were an ape-like father whose ape-like daughter was dallying with a slightly less ape-like mutant.

I mean, would you want your daughter to marry one of them?

It'd drive me absolutely bananas.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,12:04   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 16 2009,21:28)
 
Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 16 2009,20:07)
All this made me go read Wikipedia's page on Haldane's Dilemma again. That page never looks the same from one visit to the next!

Reading the discussion panel was fun. Hilarious to see WalterR talk about himself in the third person.

Did you know that DaveScot was banned from Wikipedia? Is there any way to collect all of his trolling comments, a sort of "Collected Wit and Slightly Cheezy Poof Dusted Wisdom"? That would be a comedy gold mine...

Got any more details on the DaveScott banning to share with the class?

Was it because:

1.) He insisted in the face of overwhelming evidense to the contrary that Geoge W Bush was the Greatest President Ever
2.) He got Cheesy Poof stains on their front page
3.) They didn't need any Wike editors whose qualifications consisted of over-bearing, power-crazed behavior coupled with an inability to play well with others.


From the discussion panel of the Wikipedia page for Haldane's Dilemma:
 
Quote
This page is linked to from Uncommon Descent via a post today titled "Wikipedia Suppresses Info On Haldane’s Dilemma". grendel|khan 19:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Both the relevant material and personal attacks against Wikipedia editors in good standing at uncommondescent.com don't spell any good for "DaveScot" or anyone he may have influenced if they decide to have a go at this WP article.
Nevertheless, some of the criticisms expressed here by Walter ReMine seem valid to me when weighed against Wikipedia's rules. I suggest we disregard its personal and anti-Wikipedia slant and discuss the relevant content here. AvB ÷ talk 09:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, if we've got the pseudoscience pov pushers frothing, we must be doing something right. DS has been banned from Wikipedia, due to a particularly shabby record of trolling, disruption and legal threats. FeloniousMonk 03:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
JohnW



Posts: 2200
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,12:48   

Quote (slpage @ Feb. 16 2009,18:37)
His monumental ego has garnered him a small legion of dimwitted followers, who are - lucky for him - ignorant of the issues involved in his claims and find him hero-like in his stature.

So how's Dembski going to respond to this?  Kindred spirit, or competitor pissing on his fire hydrant?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Reg



Posts: 112
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,14:02   

Quote

The first two drones to speak up say:
 
Quote
Where would one go to find out what message theory is.
and  
Quote
Message Theory sounds like some arm of Information Theory,but I’ve been unable to find any reference to it in the math literature.

Hey, that second drone was me - asking whereabouts in the literature this "message theory" is, of which he speaks.

--------------
"Even though I am not a creationist by any reasonable definition ... the Cambrian explosion was doubtless the work of God in my view but I would say that of all creation." - Denyse O'Leary, Oct 17, 2009.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,14:32   

Quote (Reg @ Feb. 17 2009,14:02)
Quote

The first two drones to speak up say:
   
Quote
Where would one go to find out what message theory is.
and    
Quote
Message Theory sounds like some arm of Information Theory,but I’ve been unable to find any reference to it in the math literature.

Hey, that second drone was me - asking whereabouts in the literature this "message theory" is, of which he speaks.

My apologies!

I guess I still am not used to the fact that some opposing voices are now allowed (tolerated?) at UD......

EDIT: And yes, a good question! I've just been reading the talk page referenced earlier on Wikipedia. Break out the popcorn!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2009,15:22   

Why are we all upset about Mr. ReMines  Massage Therapy ?  




Oh... NEVER MIND....

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
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