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  Topic: Religion On The Job, Religion, Antievolution, and Co-workers< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,06:35   

This thread is for discussion of instances where people claim religious discrimination when told they can't promote antievolution at work. There's a fairly long history of this, including the 1994 Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School District case.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 3590
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,09:10   

http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2012....omorrow

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Kristine



Posts: 3046
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,11:00   

Call the Wahhhhmbulance!! :p
Quote
Mr Coppedge was a "team leader" on the Cassini project at the agency's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. He used to talk to his co-workers about the theory and handed out DVDs on it while at work.

He claims that led to him being demoted in 2009 and the termination of his employment as a computer specialist last year.

His case, which is being heard in a Los Angeles court, is being backed by a Christian civil rights group and the Discovery Institute, a proponent of intelligent design.

John West, of the Seattle-based Discovery Institute, said: "It's part of a pattern. There is basically a war on anyone who dissents from Darwin and we've seen that for several years. This is free speech, freedom of conscience 101."

William Becker, Mr Coppedge's lawyer, claimed his client was singled out because his superiors perceived his belief in intelligent design to be religious.

He said: "David had this reputation for being a Christian, for being a practicing one. He did not go around evangelising or proselytising.

"But if he found out that someone was a Christian he would say, 'Oh that's interesting, what denomination are you?' He's not apologising for who he is. He's an evangelical Christian."


Yeah, it's just a total coinckydinky that he's an evangelical. All right, kiddies - have at it! :)



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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Richardthughes



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,11:02   

I believe the thread 'religion on the job' (just below) is handling this.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
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"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Kristine



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Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,11:08   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 13 2012,11:02)
I believe the thread 'religion on the job' (just below) is handling this.

Yeah, yeah - I was just checkin'! *Blush*

Some good background here.

Quote
My run-ins with Coppedge are purely from his writings … on the Institute for Creation Research’s website. Yep, that’s right: Coppedge is a young-Earth creationist, at least based upon his writings. He has written several articles for the ICR, though I have only addressed two in this blog: “Venus and the Battle of Uniformitarianism (A Creationist Argument)” and “Dating Planetary Surfaces with Craters – Why There Is No “Crisis in Crater Count Dating”.” From his writings, he has a very poor grasp of astronomy, despite the attempt of argument from authority by posting at the bottom of them, “David F. Coppedge works in the Cassini program at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. (The views expressed are his own.)” I address this more below.

Coppedge runs computers at JPL for the Cassini mission to Saturn. His expertise is in computers, not astronomy. And not evolution.


Edited by Kristine on Mar. 13 2012,11:17

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,12:18   

What the heck is it with engineers and creationism?

Also, what the heck is it with engineers thinking that they know better than everyone else on the planet about everything?

I mean, our own local case in point, Joe the toaster repair guy, thinks he knows more about ID than the guy that effectively invented it, Dembski.  And he (in his own mind) surely knows more than the 10s of 1000s of practicing scientists.

The only actual scientist that I can think of is Behe, and his ideas are all but mainstream.  He just can't seem to square it in his own mind with his religion and has to say stupid things to try to justify his religion.

rant over.. thanks

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,12:28   

Waaaiiit just a second here - wasn't there a major miscalculation in the Cassini mission, that almost prevented it and its lander, Huygens, from communicating on the proper radio frequency, almost derailing the gathering of information entirely?

There was! Hmmm, I'm not saying it was Coppedge's fault, but...

Curse you all, I'm getting sucked back into the TARD! :D

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Tom A



Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,17:10   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 13 2012,12:18)
What the heck is it with engineers and creationism?

Also, what the heck is it with engineers thinking that they know better than everyone else on the planet about everything?

I mean, our own local case in point, Joe the toaster repair guy, thinks he knows more about ID than the guy that effectively invented it, Dembski.  And he (in his own mind) surely knows more than the 10s of 1000s of practicing scientists.

The only actual scientist that I can think of is Behe, and his ideas are all but mainstream.  He just can't seem to square it in his own mind with his religion and has to say stupid things to try to justify his religion.

rant over.. thanks

I know what you mean about engineers. I work with lots of them and they (almost) all seem to think they know everything about everything, and they have no doubt about it. I'm one of three scientists at our facility and we're always dumbfounded that the engineers don't ask for advice for things outside their area of expertise when starting a project, then come looking for help when it goes to hell because they made the wrong assumptions or didn't take certain factors into account when doing calculations.

I don't know if any of them are creationists, but all that I'm aware of are religious, and pretty dogmatic about their beliefs. Very few have any knack for looking at problems in a scientific way. They usually "know" what the solution is, and are truly confused when they turn out to be wrong.

Either people with tendencies to be arrogant, dogmatic and overconfident in their knowledge and abilities are drawn to engineering, or they are trained that way in school. Most likely, it's a combination of the two.
[Disclaimer: I'm speaking in generalities of most of the engineers that I know personally, not those who read and contribute to these pages]

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,17:45   

The Salem Hypothesis isn't really a hypothesis but it is a pretty damn good predictor.  If you want to go all meta- on a tard, particularly one that fits that bill, bring it up.  Frilldo diddled himself with that one so long that carlson made it a key couplet

ETA to get back on topic, it seems that a corollary of the Salem 'hypothesis' might be that instances like the Coppedge fiasco might be scarce, relative to the evil athiest conspiracy squashing good creation science in university settings.  Since, if it's true, engineers are more likely to be predisposed to being creationist it is much of a stretch to think that being a proselytizing creationist wanker ala Coppedge is more likely to escape disapproval in an engineering firm, as opposed to an academic department??

Edited by Erasmus, FCD on Mar. 13 2012,18:48

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
utidjian



Posts: 185
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,19:56   

I run the undergraduate labs for a small college Engineering Physics department. Basically a technician. Most of what I do is engineering. I work with scientists from Biology, Chemistry, Physics (of course) and even from Psychology in designing and building their experiments. One week I will be working on making some bio-pulverizers for a Biology lab, another week I will be designing and building a set of apparatus for radio-carbon dating using lasers, another day I will be helping a student design and build a controller unit for a CNC mini-mill, another week I will be helping a Psychology professor design a method for measuring the "anxiety" of a passenger in a car, another time I will working on a radio tracking system for some endangered turtles, to name a few... far too often I have to fix equipment that professors have wrecked because they didn't know what they were doing. Sometimes I get the time to work on my own projects.

I really love this job. I doubt I would have the freedom or variety in a larger college or university that keeps this job interesting. It is kinda like I get paid to fix, design, and build machines and apparatus. To me, it is as if I get paid to do my hobby. If I had independent means I would do the job for free.

I don't now, and never have, bought in to any part of the argument regarding design. Far from it. I see a heckuvalot more 'evolution' in the design process of the things I make and work with than I do of any sort of external 'information.' Equating the design process and the evolutionary process is not a good analogy for either but there is far more similarity and things I can learn from the evolutionary process and apply it to designs than can be done the other way around.

What is difficult for me to understand is how some engineers can not see the similarities as I do.

-DU-

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Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,22:55   

Quote
What is difficult for me to understand is how some engineers can not see the similarities as I do.

My guess is that the ones that see that aren't as vocal about it as the ones that don't.

Henry

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2012,23:02   

I am the only physicist leading a team of engineers in instrumentation design.  For most of them, it's "don't bore me with the science, just tell what I need to know" so they can go off in a corner with their little piece to write some code or run a simulation to solve the immediate Problem Du Jour. And when things go south, I'm the one looking for the root cause, while they're looking for a band-aid to patch the thing together long enough to get through the next phase of testing. With only a few exceptions, most engineers I know are not interested in the science or physics behind the phenomenon that the instrument we're designing is used to investigate. This is especially true of the more overtly religious ones, who tend to be more cocksure of their abilities, while the exceptional ones tend to be younger, know when to ask questions,  and are eager to learn.

ETA: correctizationing of the grammaficationaries

Edited by sledgehammer on Mar. 13 2012,21:11

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
utidjian



Posts: 185
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,00:06   

sledgehammer,

I approach the problems that the scientists bring to me a bit differently. More like your younger engineers. I am very interested in the science behind (and even in front of) a particular problem. I am also interested in the whole project. I find that it is sometimes difficult to get enough details from the scientist about the exact thing they want.

I also have a tendency to 'overbuild' a particular device or instrument due to the amazing ability of some scientists to destroy it. This is not really a complaint but something I see as an interesting challenge.

I rarely trouble them with the difficulties I may encounter in making their stuff. I have learned that, for the most part, they are completely uninterested. My biologist, for instance, couldn't care less what particular alloy of stainless steel I should use for making his bio-pulverizers. Nor was he interested in how amazingly difficult it is to bore a smooth blind hole with a dead flat and smooth bottom with a smooth radius at the corner.

There is a lot of variation with physicists where I work. Some are very tidy and methodical and others are quite messy with stuff held together with tape, string, and paperclips... whatever comes to hand.

A more humorous take, obviously created by a technician:


Though I don't see myself as a Chuck Norris ;-)

-DU-

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Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,00:27   

I've been following Coppedge since before the "troubles" after I stumbled on his Creation-Evolution Headlines site.

The site has morphed a bit recently and is not nearly as "creationist" as the old site, but you can still find it via our pal Google.

Here's a sample of the old  Creation Safaris site.

Coppedge is involved in many things.  He configured routers and operated the HP OpenView network management software for the Cassini project, but those jobs went away during the budget cuts. He failed to upgrade his computer skills as JPL moved to Linux;  got laid off.

He's on the board of Illustra Media which distributes the Privileged Planet and other ID titles.  

He's associated with some weird outfit called Logos Associates with John Sanford, John Baumgardner, Steve Austin and other creationists.  God knows what they do.

I found an old LinkedIn page that says he got a BS in science education from Bob Jones University (no date, but probably in the 70's) and another BS in physics with an astrophysics concentration from California State University - Northridge.  His LinkedIn page was really out there leading you to believe he ran the Cassini project when all he did was monitor the network.

He's also listed himself as President of Master Plan Association which near as I can tell was a ministry set up by his father, now deceased.

Getting back to Creation Safaris and C-E Headlines, that's quite a piece of work.  He blogs on average 400 words a day, every day and has done so for about 8 years.  Even when he was having his HR problems with JPL and getting laid off he never missed a day.  He goes after all science, even his own colleagues at JPL.

I don't see how he held down a full-time job seeing as how he appeared to be a full-time YEC, too!  Although, there were some comments in the depositions to the effect that he seemed to spend a lot of time at work on personal stuff, but who knows.

Interesting fellow in a clinical sort of way.  Probably material enough for a thesis or two.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,01:10   

DU-  I could tell from your previous post that you are one of the "exceptionals" that are a joy to work with. Your job sounds like a lot of fun, and I'm jealous. I also know of what you speak when you describe the more academically oriented scientists that have little appreciation for the art of engineering, and how to make things that work.  My undergrad degree is BSEE, but I've done a lot of ME as well (had to pay off those student loans).  I once had an engineering tech that loved the science and had been a tinkerer all his life, and he knew how to get things done.  He was worth his weight in gold.  Alas, after he got his engineering degree, he was lured away by one of my former colleagues who knew and valued his talents more than the company I was working for at the time.  I was so upset with the short-sightedness of the CEO, that I left as well.
 This is straying from the topic at hand, so I'll PM from here on out.

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
utidjian



Posts: 185
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,01:51   

Interesting stuff Doc Bill. His degree from Bob Jones Looniversity appears to be in Secondary Education (according to his LinkedIn page.)

The Creation Safaris and crev.info pages are both copyright "Master Plan Association."

There is an announcement on the crev.info page:
Quote
Reporting will be sparse through the month of March.
Please check back occasionally.

Perhaps he will be too busy in court to blog.  :D

After reading some of the court documents and comparing it to his LinkedIn page it does seem a bit fluffed up, but that isn't unusual for LinkedIn pages.

-DU-

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Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory

  
carolfosterr



Posts: 1
Joined: Mar. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,05:30   

It sometimes happens with my LinkedIn pages too!
What might be the reason ?

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paintless dent removal training

  
k.e..



Posts: 2997
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,06:50   

Quote (utidjian @ Mar. 14 2012,08:06)
sledgehammer,

I approach the problems that the scientists bring to me a bit differently. More like your younger engineers. I am very interested in the science behind (and even in front of) a particular problem. I am also interested in the whole project. I find that it is sometimes difficult to get enough details from the scientist about the exact thing they want.

I also have a tendency to 'overbuild' a particular device or instrument due to the amazing ability of some scientists to destroy it. This is not really a complaint but something I see as an interesting challenge.

I rarely trouble them with the difficulties I may encounter in making their stuff. I have learned that, for the most part, they are completely uninterested. My biologist, for instance, couldn't care less what particular alloy of stainless steel I should use for making his bio-pulverizers. Nor was he interested in how amazingly difficult it is to bore a smooth blind hole with a dead flat and smooth bottom with a smooth radius at the corner.

There is a lot of variation with physicists where I work. Some are very tidy and methodical and others are quite messy with stuff held together with tape, string, and paperclips... whatever comes to hand.

A more humorous take, obviously created by a technician:


Though I don't see myself as a Chuck Norris ;-)

-DU-

HA, CHUCK NORRIS DOESN'T DO ENGINEERING THE PARTS A SO SCARED THEY JUST ARRANGE THEMSELVES!

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,09:18   

News report:

Quote

Coppedge claims he never forcibly compelled colleagues to accept his idea of intelligent design in the workplace. Intelligent design is a conviction that life is too complex to have developed solely through evolution and that the universe was designed by an intelligent entity.


This isn't about forcing people to accept your pretentious twaddle, David; it's more about forcing people to listen to your pretentious twaddle, over and over, when they've told you they don't want to.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,09:20   

Internet definition of fanatic: someone who will not change his mind and will not change the subject.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,10:48   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 14 2012,08:20)
Internet definition of fanatic: someone who will not change his mind and will not change the subject.

What about the ones that try to change the subject when they sense they're losing the argument? :p

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,11:30   

Once again, narcissistic personality disorder:

Quote
Believing that you're better than others.

Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness.

Exaggerating your achievements or talents.

Expecting constant praise and admiration.

Believing that you're special and acting accordingly.

Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings.

Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans.

Taking advantage of others.

Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior.

Being jealous of others.

Believing that others are jealous of you.

Trouble keeping healthy relationships.

Setting unrealistic goals.

Being easily hurt and rejected.

Having a fragile self-esteem.

Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional.



I'm right and they're wrong.  Somebody has to stand up to the experts.  Same pattern with creationists over and over.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,11:45   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 14 2012,11:30)
Once again, narcissistic personality disorder:

Quote
Believing that you're better than others.

Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness.

Exaggerating your achievements or talents.

Expecting constant praise and admiration.

Believing that you're special and acting accordingly.

Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings.

Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans.

Taking advantage of others.

Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior.

Being jealous of others.

Believing that others are jealous of you.

Trouble keeping healthy relationships.

Setting unrealistic goals.

Being easily hurt and rejected.

Having a fragile self-esteem.

Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional.



I'm right and they're wrong.  Somebody has to stand up to the experts.  Same pattern with creationists over and over.

Heck, I've got 50% of those characteristics... and I'm much better now.

Of course, I can also recognize those traits in myself and pretty accurately judge when they are unfounded.

Know thyself... and all that.

I wonder if 'stalking' should be on that list?

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,12:50   

Quote
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly.

I'm unique! Just like everybody else!

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,14:18   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 14 2012,11:45)
Of course, I can also recognize those traits in myself and pretty accurately judge when they are unfounded.

Or do you just think you can? ? ? ?
   
Quote
Exaggerating your achievements or talents.

;)


[Edited to remove unintentional smilie]

Edited by noncarborundum on Mar. 14 2012,14:19

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"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,14:30   

We're all special.

It's just that some of us are more special than others!

  
Kristine



Posts: 3046
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,16:29   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 14 2012,09:18)
News report:

Quote

Coppedge claims he never forcibly compelled colleagues to accept his idea of intelligent design in the workplace. Intelligent design is a conviction that life is too complex to have developed solely through evolution and that the universe was designed by an intelligent entity.


This isn't about forcing people to accept your pretentious twaddle, David; it's more about forcing people to listen to your pretentious twaddle, over and over, when they've told you they don't want to.

Yes, exactly. You cannot really force a belief on someone in the United States. For all the rabble-raising from the right wing, even they cannot do it.

The laughable irony is, the Supreme Court (largely conservative due to Reagan, Bush HW, and Bush W appointees) have really raised the bar for claims of discrimination. One now (as I recall - correct me if I am wrong) has to show intent on the part of the employer, not merely results/behavior. So, here is another case in which one faction of conservatives have screwed over another.

But of course, this is not being argued in front of the SCOTUS, and another irony here is that the media may be

Expelled from the conference in chambers. (I'm being facetious - I know that such conferences are rarely if ever public.) ;)

Oh, dog, somebody please stop me! Stop me before I post again!

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
khan



Posts: 1484
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2012,18:00   

My last ~2 years before I retired I was supervisor of a bunch of fetus fetishist god wallopers.
Yes they could program, but it was all I could do to not bring in a rubber chicken and smack them.
Not sure of their opinions re creationism, afraid to ask.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2012,09:36   

I came across an old article by Coppedge on a paper dealing with a new algorithm using large datasets to reconstruct phylogenies.  It was primarily snarky insults and nonsense, but two things struck me -

1. The program employed a heuristic search.  Coppedge - supposedly knowledgeable about computers and such - declared this to mean  that they were "just guessing"

2. He referred to the Maximum Likelihood search criterion as a "value".

IOW - he is completely ignorant of this stuff, yet felt qualified (if not compelled) to write a "take down" of this article.

The worst part is, so many lay YECs gobble his stuff up - they LIKE that he is obnoxious, rude, insulting, etc.  Pity that they cannot see that his bluster is used to cover up his angry stupidity.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2012,10:08   

Quote (SLP @ Mar. 15 2012,09:36)
I came across an old article by Coppedge on a paper dealing with a new algorithm using large datasets to reconstruct phylogenies.  It was primarily snarky insults and nonsense, but two things struck me -

1. The program employed a heuristic search.  Coppedge - supposedly knowledgeable about computers and such - declared this to mean  that they were "just guessing"

2. He referred to the Maximum Likelihood search criterion as a "value".

IOW - he is completely ignorant of this stuff, yet felt qualified (if not compelled) to write a "take down" of this article.

The worst part is, so many lay YECs gobble his stuff up - they LIKE that he is obnoxious, rude, insulting, etc.  Pity that they cannot see that his bluster is used to cover up his angry stupidity.

I read that same article and the critique of it... I think I happened to be reading another thread here at the time and followed the link.

The article and critique was years ago.

You know, in our modern, linked-in, facebooked, blogged society, it's really going to become interesting how one's personal life affects one's job.

No, it probably shouldn't, but it does and it will.  Does it matter if you're gay, Christian, atheist, homophobic, or any of that.  It shouldn't (it will, but it shouldn't).

On the other hand, if you are spouting views that are diametrically opposite that of your job and it's a critical part of your job, then maybe it should be taken into account.  Especially those who directly influence the public in some way.

Like, for example, a science teacher teaching students wrong science.  Or a priest being caught with drugs and hookers (of the same sex).  His sexual orientation, even his drug use really shouldn't matter.  But if I was going to a church that was intolerant to homosexuals, then I think I'd want to know if the priest was a homosexual.

It's a very interesting conundrum.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3590
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2012,16:28   

Apparently teachers can be fired for taking delivery of jumbo sausage pizzas, at least if they do it online.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
keiths



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,00:52   

The first line of JPL's trial brief:
Quote
This case is about an employee who had no self-awareness.


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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Kristine



Posts: 3046
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,09:24   

We're going to be celebrating a variation of Kitzmass quite soon, methinks:

Quote
[Coppedge] also admits that employees complained to managers about him harassing them by talking about his religious convictions and giving them religious DVDs as gifts.


There's always a Buckingham, isn't there? ;)

Now, contrast this with one of the places where I work: all people of conscience, including atheists and agnostics, are a protected class, and employees are invited to attend panel discussions by other employees about their belief systems (including atheism and agnosticism, as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.). Participation in these discussions is optional, and meant to spread tolerance for diverse points of view. Otherwise, we don't get into it, and I don't care if someone wears a cross on a necklace.

I don't agree with the British system of banishing all religious references from the workplace, but let's face it: the workplace is a place one has to be. Likewise, when a gentleman came up to my reference desk and asked for a book by "a preacher named Joel somebody" I was able to direct him to Joel Osteen's books. I loathe Osteen's message, but it's not my job to say so; it's my job to give the patron the information he/she wants.

So, perhaps instead of making these fly-by-night videos, the Disco Boys could try to cough up some real evidence that would be included in the mainstream books and DVDs that vendors sell to libraries, so that patrons could know about and ask for them instead of the Disco 'Tute needing other Disco minions to hawk these largely unknown works at the workplace? But of course, that's too close to publishing scholarly papers in the Great Darwinian Conspiratorial Hegemony, no? And, of course, that would involve being ethical enough to not use your workplace as a soapbox for your personal beliefs.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
utidjian



Posts: 185
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,09:25   

Quote (keiths @ Mar. 16 2012,00:52)
The first line of JPL's trial brief:
Quote
This case is about an employee who had no self-awareness.

That single sentence sums up the character of Coppedge in his relationship with his co-workers perfectly.

-DU-

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Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,10:04   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 16 2012,09:24)
We're going to be celebrating a variation of Kitzmass quite soon, methinks:

 
Quote
[Coppedge] also admits that employees complained to managers about him harassing them by talking about his religious convictions and giving them religious DVDs as gifts.


There's always a Buckingham, isn't there? ;)

Now, contrast this with one of the places where I work: all people of conscience, including atheists and agnostics, are a protected class, and employees are invited to attend panel discussions by other employees about their belief systems (including atheism and agnosticism, as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.). Participation in these discussions is optional, and meant to spread tolerance for diverse points of view. Otherwise, we don't get into it, and I don't care if someone wears a cross on a necklace.

I don't agree with the British system of banishing all religious references from the workplace, but let's face it: the workplace is a place one has to be. Likewise, when a gentleman came up to my reference desk and asked for a book by "a preacher named Joel somebody" I was able to direct him to Joel Osteen's books. I loathe Osteen's message, but it's not my job to say so; it's my job to give the patron the information he/she wants.

So, perhaps instead of making these fly-by-night videos, the Disco Boys could try to cough up some real evidence that would be included in the mainstream books and DVDs that vendors sell to libraries, so that patrons could know about and ask for them instead of the Disco 'Tute needing other Disco minions to hawk these largely unknown works at the workplace? But of course, that's too close to publishing scholarly papers in the Great Darwinian Conspiratorial Hegemony, no? And, of course, that would involve being ethical enough to not use your workplace as a soapbox for your personal beliefs.

But that's not how the religious... I mean... ID proponents disseminate information.

If everyone had to go do their own research about religion... I mean... ID, then no one would probably bother.  And those that did would get the wrong idea because of all the contradictions and lies and utterly useless things in religion... I mean... ID.

So, the message MUST be presented in an evangelical... I mean... educational way.  That's the proper method for disseminating information.  No questions, no comments, no backtalk, just preaching... I mean... lecturing.

That's the way that these people actually think.  They literally can't understand things like learning.  They look stuff up to make arguments (or look for quotemines or things that they can obfuscate or lie about), but not to actually learn.  Their faith... I mean... logical hypotheses just can't stand up to that level of thinking.  And they all know it.  At least the pastors... I mean... ID leadership (many of whom also went to seminary) also know it.

I'm reading a book about how all the seminary schools are teaching the actual history of the bible and yet, these pastors they are churning out never mention it in the pulpit.  They are basically lying to their entire congregation.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Quack



Posts: 1784
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,11:49   

Quote
I'm reading a book about how all the seminary schools are teaching the actual history of the bible and yet, these pastors they are churning out never mention it in the pulpit.  They are basically lying to their entire congregation.

Got an alternative?

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.
                                                                                               Richard Feynman

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,11:49   

Quote
There's always a Buckingham, isn't there?


Funny, that, I was thinking about Buckingham while reading the NCSE opinion...

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,15:23   

I found a pole to Phrangulate...On the front page of MSN.

http://www.msn.com/....msn.com

It's tied as of when I post this.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,15:28   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 16 2012,15:23)
I found a pole to Phrangulate...On the front page of MSN.

http://www.msn.com/....msn....msn.com

It's tied as of when I post this.

I get so pissy when polls are not correctly constructed.

The options MUST be non-overlapping.

I agree that the have the right to share their opinions.  I also agree that if they are aggressive about it to the point of harassment, then the employer should step in to prevent that.

Of, polls are specifically constructed this way by biased individuals.  With just a little thinking you can even tell which way their bias runs just by reading the responses.

Do you think abortion should be made illegal?
Of course, all children should be allowed to live and explore their lives.
No, kill all the stupid embryos and crush their remains to dust.

Hmmm....

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2012,22:08   

Quote
Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."


Whoops! Perjury much?

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news....lawsuit

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Krubozumo Nyankoye



Posts: 15
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 17 2012,02:23   

Very interesting thread, I have not been here much lately but I always enjoy my visits.

First, on topic, the Coppedge matter. Egregious as his behavior in the work environment was, this whole lawsuit sounds like a put up job to a)garner publicity for the 'academic freedom' ploy, and b) cast aspersions on JPL.  I hope he gets slapped down hard.

On the question of engineering v. science, it is partly just a cultural difference. Engineers are expected to have conventional solutions to a wide range of problems. Scientists on the other hand generally are faced with a wide range of problems for which there are no solutions and their charge is to discover some. When you are doing good science, you really are in a uncertain situation, it takes a certain kind of calm and self-assurance to cope with that uncertainty for years and years. I don't think that kind of environment appeals to the religious. They seem to have a kind of fetish about certainty. So perhaps it is natural that the religious gravitate towards engineering instead of science.  There are no doubt plenty of brilliant engineers who are confronted with similar difficulties to those of science when developing hardware or software for truly novel applications and uses. Like the engineers who developed the four computer decision system for the avionics of the shuttle. For the time and the technology it was a brilliant piece of work.

Since I kind of have a foot in both puddles, I have a certain empathy for all parties. I have known a few scientists who were good enough at what they did but who were pretty dogmatic in other respects. Perhaps the distinguishing factor is more like a kind of natural selection. There are far fewer niches for scientists than there are for engineers.  And those niches are a much tighter fit. There are plenty of jobs for engineers without a PhD. but not many for scientists. So the winnowing process is both brutal and highly selective.

If you think about it for a while it is a little amazing that JPL tolerated this guy's extracurricular activities for as long as they did. In his capacity as a sysadmin he was in an ideal position to totally fuck up the mission, and if he was clever about it, get away scot free while serving up a truck load of scorn and derision to those elite scientists. He certainly didn't seem to shy away from deriding the work that the mission produced in as public a way as possible. Perhaps he, and his collaborators, calculated that he could do more damage to science based policy and decisions by letting the mission play out and just fanatically contradicting every result published with his idiotic rants about A.S.S.

Or perhaps they just weren't clever enough to figure out a way to cover their tracks if they did overt sabotage.

Strange world we live in. Stranger than we can suppose.

  
Quack



Posts: 1784
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 17 2012,10:51   

Quote
Strange world we live in. Stranger than we can suppose.

I suppose you are right.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.
                                                                                               Richard Feynman

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 17 2012,22:03   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 16 2012,22:08)
Quote
Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."


Whoops! Perjury much?

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news.......lawsuit

You can find the Pretty Planet out on YouTube but you only have to watch part 11 of 12.  (I wish it had been 7 of 9!)

Anyway, all the talking heads are Liars for Jesus and they just can't help themselves from declaring that the universe is a creation of God, by which they mean their God.

Coppedge and the little creationists try to skirt the "ID is not religious" by claiming that the ID literature (in general) doesn't mention the Bible, however we all know that's a dodge and that they're playing word games.

A judge would need only 10 minutes on Google to uncover the entire scam.  Time will tell if the judge is up to it.

But, yeah, Coppedge is lying his head off.  About everything.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2012,10:13   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 17 2012,20:03)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 16 2012,22:08)
 
Quote
Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."


Whoops! Perjury much?

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news.......lawsuit

You can find the Pretty Planet out on YouTube but you only have to watch part 11 of 12.  (I wish it had been 7 of 9!)

Anyway, all the talking heads are Liars for Jesus and they just can't help themselves from declaring that the universe is a creation of God, by which they mean their God.

Coppedge and the little creationists try to skirt the "ID is not religious" by claiming that the ID literature (in general) doesn't mention the Bible, however we all know that's a dodge and that they're playing word games.

A judge would need only 10 minutes on Google to uncover the entire scam.  Time will tell if the judge is up to it.

But, yeah, Coppedge is lying his head off.  About everything.

Actually, a judge is not allowed to consider anything not introduced as evidence. So it would be illegal to Google anything related to the trial.

I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.

Edited by Dr.GH on Mar. 18 2012,08:14

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2012,12:44   

Part 11 of 12 of Unlocking the Mystery of Life!

Narrated by three creationists, Nelson, Meyer and Dembski, none of whom are scientists.  They actually claim that Dembski made a significant breakthrough that enables design to be detected.  What a laugh!

Yes, let's hope the Judge shows both the Pretty Planet and Unlocking Creationism in court.  I'll buy the popcorn.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1264
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2012,13:35   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 18 2012,16:13)
I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.

I would imagine they'll try to avoid the issue of ID/religion. JPL seem to have a reasonable case that Our Hero was asked not to do [x], continued to do so, and was less than adequate at his job and was ultimately made redundant.

No need to let the case drift onto his territory when your own is more than adequate.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2012,14:15   

tbh, I've watched that video (Privileged Planet 11/12) and I wouldn't call it "religious".  It mentions God, but then so does Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of Time - that doesn't make his book religious.

It's putting across the argument that perhaps an Intelligent Designer is indicated by the constants of the universe, which is a legitimate argument (if wrong).

More to the point, JPL isn't defending its position on the basis of the content of Coppedge's views, but on the insensitive way in which he banged on about them at work (including his views, apparently, on gay marriage).

Seems legitimate to me, when you are downsizing, to let go the people whose social skills, or lack of them, are getting in the way of smooth running.

Edited by Febble on Mar. 18 2012,16:22

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2012,17:26   

Quote (Amadan @ Mar. 18 2012,13:35)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 18 2012,16:13)
I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.

I would imagine they'll try to avoid the issue of ID/religion. JPL seem to have a reasonable case that Our Hero was asked not to do [x], continued to do so, and was less than adequate at his job and was ultimately made redundant.

No need to let the case drift onto his territory when your own is more than adequate.

The JPL lawyers tried to block entry of the films as evidence but the judge overruled that motion in favor of Coppedge.  However, Coppedge (er, Becker) argued that they needed deWolf to explain the films and the judge said he was competent to evaluate the evidence.

Would the judge have to play the films in court, or could he watch them by himself in chambers?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 18 2012,17:30   

Did the JPL co-workers get told that not only did they need the video, but they should take this DI shyster home with them, too?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2012,20:19   

Jeffrey Kluger at Time.com:
Quote
It's been a long time since I graduated law school and was admitted to the bar, and I've surely forgotten more than I remember. But here's one bit of legal street-smarts I've retained: if you're a plaintiff filing a trial brief, you may not want to write it as if it were a screenplay — and then admit that you're making stuff up.


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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Kristine



Posts: 3046
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2012,21:02   

Quote (keiths @ Mar. 19 2012,20:19)
Jeffrey Kluger at Time.com:
 
Quote
It's been a long time since I graduated law school and was admitted to the bar, and I've surely forgotten more than I remember. But here's one bit of legal street-smarts I've retained: if you're a plaintiff filing a trial brief, you may not want to write it as if it were a screenplay — and then admit that you're making stuff up.

Coppedge wrote his legal brief as a screenplay? :O

Heh. I love the "The intelligent design community cannot always pick its poster children." Welllll, I guess not. Just reach up your noses and find another "poster child," Disco Toots! Dig, dig, dig for someone else, because Normal Desmond wrote his screenplay and is ready for his close-up, Mr. DembskiMille! ("Well...if it gets him down the stairs...") :D

What a trainwreck!

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2012,21:42   

His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play.  Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon.  How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

Get some popcorn and watch the movie:

Coppedge day at JPL.

Starts on Page 4.

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2012,22:14   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 19 2012,21:42)
His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play.  Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon.  How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

Get some popcorn and watch the movie:

Coppedge day at JPL.

Starts on Page 4.

I read some of that "screenplay".  IANAL, but doesn't this whole case beg for dismissal on the grounds of "what the fuck is wrong with you?"?

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"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
REC



Posts: 574
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2012,00:23   

Quote
"On one occasion Coppedge went as far as talking with a co-worker about the "Gospel of Jesus Christ." He also testified to sharing a DVD called the "Case for Christ" with a fellow employee at Christmas time."

"But his attorney said he wouldn't go as far as to say Coppedge was evangelizing or trying to win converts.

"It wasn't evangelizing," Becker said of the DVD. "It was a Christmas present."


Lol. After prep, when your attorney is explaining away you answers, you have failed.

All Science! Wonder if that was the employee who wanted a "Holiday Party" instead of a "Xmas Party?" Bring your Jewish or Muslim or Atheist co-worker you're having a disagreement with the "Case for Christ" as a Christmas present? I can't imagine the shitstorm at my work!

Quote

"I did research some information about judicial candidates because people didn't know much about the judicial candidates," Coppedge said. "People (at work) found that helpful."


I'm sure this is in the context of Prop-8. Sure your gay and allied co-workers appreciated your research, asshole.

His own fucking lawyers, his headaches and all, are close to establishing a pattern of clueless dumbassedness, if not straight-up harassment. When does cross-x start?

Link:Link

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2012,01:04   

thats whats left of his brain atrophying and detaching from the cranial walls

best part of him stuck to the wall of his glomerulus

this shit couldn't be any funnier if he was up for the death penalty

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2012,16:50   

No, your honor, I did not put a dildo on her desk.  That was a Christmas gift.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2012,17:22   

Quote (noncarborundum @ Mar. 19 2012,20:14)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 19 2012,21:42)
His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play.  Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon.  How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

Get some popcorn and watch the movie:

Coppedge day at JPL.

Starts on Page 4.

I read some of that "screenplay".  IANAL, but doesn't this whole case beg for dismissal on the grounds of "what the fuck is wrong with you?"?

Yeah?? The lawyer must be at least as crazy as his client.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2012,17:26   

But can a lawyer use insanity as an excuse?  :p

  
paragwinn



Posts: 410
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2012,19:43   

I’ve taken a few liberties (none of them religious) with the “screenplay” proffered by Coppedge and Becker in Plaintiff’s Trial Brief filed in Dec 2011 to give what “might have been” a different perspective on events leading up to the trial. As parody and opinion, it makes no claim as to the factual accuracy of events. No real effort was made to structure this as a viable screenplay. Any resemblance to the actual train of events is purely coincidental.

INT. OFFICE SPACE – SOMETIME IN THE DAY

COPPEDGE enters CHIN’S office.
CHIN: Hi, David. I’ve been getting complaints about your treatment of customers and co-workers. I was wondering if you could refrain from broaching sensitive subjects while on the job. I am willing to coach you on it.
COPPEDGE (annoyed): I disagree with your position on it and on every A.S.S.*-inine interpretation of Cassini data. I challenge you to a debate. The parking lot. 3 o’clock.
CHIN: Is there anything I can say to change your mind?
COPPEDGE: No, for the Bible tells me not to.
COPPEDGE eats shoots and leaves.

*A.S.S. = Coppedge-ism for 'Age of the Solar System'

MONTHS LATER

INT. WORK AREA – DAY
CHIN: Hi, David. I’m sorry to inform you that you’re part of a general layoff involving several employees due to budget cutbacks. JPL is making job placement services available. Would you like to participate?
COPPEDGE: Sure, as long as it doesn’t cut into my time maintaing my Creationist website, guiding Creation Safaris, illustrating media at Illustra Media, etc.

COPPEDGE’S HOME – DAY (OR NIGHT, WHENEVER)
DAVID is writing up blog entries on how evo-blinded scientists are wedded to their sacrosanct A.S.S., stopping occasionally to admire the way he came up with the acronym ‘A.S.S.’ But upon reflecting upon events at JPL over the last several months, he becomes increasingly distressed. The compaints were really  about religion!  The demotion was really about religion! The layoff was really about….religion! How heavy-handed and repetitive can I perceive JPL to get?
HIS DVD-LENDING LIST. He notices a pattern forming. Wha??  His co-workers’ lack of appreciation for the considerate comments next to each of their names. Their weak principles blinding them to the truth. What the …?

INT. LAW OFFICE – DAY

Morning at the Becker Law Firm. COPPEDGE moves urgently through the corriders. Out of breath, reaches BECKER’S office.
BECKER: Hi, David. What’s up? You look like you’ve seen a ghost or zombie Jesus.
COPPEDGE: I saw a ghost alright. A spectre of religious persecution!
BECKER: Come again?
COPPEDGE: CHIN ordered me to stop exercising my free speech rights about matters I know I’m right about, and … and –
BECKER: Take a chill pill, David. Tell me what happened. Show me on this doll where you felt violated.
COPPEDGE: It was … horrible. I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, you know. CHIN didn’t care when he’d crossed the line suppressing my freedom of speech in the workplace. I’ve had it with him. I’m so uncomfortable with CHIN having approached me about watching how I treat customers and talking about my lack of awareness in pushing my religiously motivated political, scientific and office party views on an unwilling audience. I couldn’t deal with him on these kinds of issues. And (headache ensues) …
BECKER: There, there. Would you like a hot beverage?
COPPEDGE: … and there was my Red Streamline Stapler on his desk. He always borrows it and never gives it back and – I think he was trying to create a hostile work environment. I don’t want JPL to get away with suppressing my freedom of speech on religious grounds on  company time ever again. I cant stand for it. I just cant!
BECKER: Well, I’ll look into it. Let me know when you want to sue JPL for religious discrimination.
COPPEDGE: You know, I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, and I’m a member of …

AND SCENE.

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,07:32   

Quote (paragwinn @ Mar. 20 2012,20:43)
BECKER: Take a chill pill, David. Tell me what happened. Show me on this doll where you felt violated.



*snort*

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10307
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,08:37   

Quote (paragwinn @ Mar. 20 2012,19:43)
I’ve taken a few liberties (none of them religious) with the “screenplay” proffered by Coppedge and Becker in Plaintiff’s Trial Brief filed in Dec 2011 to give what “might have been” a different perspective on events leading up to the trial. As parody and opinion, it makes no claim as to the factual accuracy of events. No real effort was made to structure this as a viable screenplay. Any resemblance to the actual train of events is purely coincidental.

INT. OFFICE SPACE – SOMETIME IN THE DAY

COPPEDGE enters CHIN’S office.
CHIN: Hi, David. I’ve been getting complaints about your treatment of customers and co-workers. I was wondering if you could refrain from broaching sensitive subjects while on the job. I am willing to coach you on it.
COPPEDGE (annoyed): I disagree with your position on it and on every A.S.S.*-inine interpretation of Cassini data. I challenge you to a debate. The parking lot. 3 o’clock.
CHIN: Is there anything I can say to change your mind?
COPPEDGE: No, for the Bible tells me not to.
COPPEDGE eats shoots and leaves.

*A.S.S. = Coppedge-ism for 'Age of the Solar System'

MONTHS LATER

INT. WORK AREA – DAY
CHIN: Hi, David. I’m sorry to inform you that you’re part of a general layoff involving several employees due to budget cutbacks. JPL is making job placement services available. Would you like to participate?
COPPEDGE: Sure, as long as it doesn’t cut into my time maintaing my Creationist website, guiding Creation Safaris, illustrating media at Illustra Media, etc.

COPPEDGE’S HOME – DAY (OR NIGHT, WHENEVER)
DAVID is writing up blog entries on how evo-blinded scientists are wedded to their sacrosanct A.S.S., stopping occasionally to admire the way he came up with the acronym ‘A.S.S.’ But upon reflecting upon events at JPL over the last several months, he becomes increasingly distressed. The compaints were really  about religion!  The demotion was really about religion! The layoff was really about….religion! How heavy-handed and repetitive can I perceive JPL to get?
HIS DVD-LENDING LIST. He notices a pattern forming. Wha??  His co-workers’ lack of appreciation for the considerate comments next to each of their names. Their weak principles blinding them to the truth. What the …?

INT. LAW OFFICE – DAY

Morning at the Becker Law Firm. COPPEDGE moves urgently through the corriders. Out of breath, reaches BECKER’S office.
BECKER: Hi, David. What’s up? You look like you’ve seen a ghost or zombie Jesus.
COPPEDGE: I saw a ghost alright. A spectre of religious persecution!
BECKER: Come again?
COPPEDGE: CHIN ordered me to stop exercising my free speech rights about matters I know I’m right about, and … and –
BECKER: Take a chill pill, David. Tell me what happened. Show me on this doll where you felt violated.
COPPEDGE: It was … horrible. I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, you know. CHIN didn’t care when he’d crossed the line suppressing my freedom of speech in the workplace. I’ve had it with him. I’m so uncomfortable with CHIN having approached me about watching how I treat customers and talking about my lack of awareness in pushing my religiously motivated political, scientific and office party views on an unwilling audience. I couldn’t deal with him on these kinds of issues. And (headache ensues) …
BECKER: There, there. Would you like a hot beverage?
COPPEDGE: … and there was my Red Streamline Stapler on his desk. He always borrows it and never gives it back and – I think he was trying to create a hostile work environment. I don’t want JPL to get away with suppressing my freedom of speech on religious grounds on  company time ever again. I cant stand for it. I just cant!
BECKER: Well, I’ll look into it. Let me know when you want to sue JPL for religious discrimination.
COPPEDGE: You know, I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, and I’m a member of …

AND SCENE.

PotW

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 21 2012,09:01   

exponented

that shit is so epic it needs to be included in the trial

bravo!!!  *applause*

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
DiEb



Posts: 238
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2012,14:01   

In an update to the Coppedge trial on Mar 28, 2012 at "Evolution News", David Klinghoffer writes about Coppedge's ECAP (Employee Contribution Assessment and Planning), "a yearly report card on job performance":    
Quote
Going back to 2003 when he first started receiving ECAP reviews, 14-year-veteran Coppedge had been "truly appreciated" for his "great job" and "special service," his "appropriate verbal and written communication skills," establishing "effective working relationships." Now another supervisor, Clark Burgess, had collected and reproduced in dense, small type a series of wounding critiques from co-workers, named and unnamed.
Klinghoffer calls this "enviable reviews". I don't know much about the American system of such assessment, but I assume that we in Europe have modeled our way after it. And here, such a review would be faint praise, not enviable but at best satisfactory: especially the phrase "appropriate verbal and written communication skills" would indicate that he is lacking in this regard, while "effective working relationships" would imply that he is a little bit autistic. Am I missing something?

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2012,14:28   

Quote (DiEb @ Mar. 28 2012,14:01)
In an update to the Coppedge trial on Mar 28, 2012 at "Evolution News", David Klinghoffer writes about Coppedge's ECAP (Employee Contribution Assessment and Planning), "a yearly report card on job performance":      
Quote
Going back to 2003 when he first started receiving ECAP reviews, 14-year-veteran Coppedge had been "truly appreciated" for his "great job" and "special service," his "appropriate verbal and written communication skills," establishing "effective working relationships." Now another supervisor, Clark Burgess, had collected and reproduced in dense, small type a series of wounding critiques from co-workers, named and unnamed.
Klinghoffer calls this "enviable reviews". I don't know much about the American system of such assessment, but I assume that we in Europe have modeled our way after it. And here, such a review would be faint praise, not enviable but at best satisfactory: especially the phrase "appropriate verbal and written communication skills" would indicate that he is lacking in this regard, while "effective working relationships" would imply that he is a little bit autistic. Am I missing something?

Yeah, in the US, you basically have to murder your boss while on the factory floor to get a negative review.  

Of course, to actually get promoted, your reviews must be better than that of Jesus.

I would agree that those are in the mid to mid-low range.  "Exceeds expectations in both verbal and written communication" would be at the high end.  "Meets Expectations" would be in the mid range.  "Appropriate" sounds like the boss didn't really want to say "he's a dork".

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 28 2012,15:03   

For some reason the phrase "delusions of adequacy" comes to mind here...

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1114
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2012,18:10   

The latest on the coppedge saga.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2012,18:31   

Forget it, the addendum at SC covered what I added.

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2012,21:05   

What is really sweet about this case is that the Disco Tute is up to their codpieces in this mess and even have an in-house lawyer working with Becker.  They are totally in.

Yet, they must hate Coppedge to the bone!  Coppers is a young earth biblical literalist creationist who publishes the most outlandish nonsense on his website.  Completely off the DI script.  Coppedge is the loosest canon among loose canons.  They'll never reign him in.  Any pretense of ID being scientific goes right out the ark porthole with Coppy.

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2012,21:06   

Another not bad report on the Coppedge trial  Not much about what's actually going on, but it finally tells me something I wanted to know, which is that it's expected to continue for several more weeks.

Mostly good, but I thought this was hardly honest reportage:

Quote
"I thought I might be the next `Expelled,"' Coppedge testified, making a reference to the Ben Stein movie which details the perils faced by those in the scientific community who support intelligent design.


More like, it makes up many of the perils faced by charlatans, while using frauds' fraudulent claims to suggest that science has no right to keep apologetic dishonesty out of established science.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 02 2012,22:21   

The ending was a bit rough as well. It finished with West's whine that the evilutionists wont listen to us. I left a comment there

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2012,22:42   

Quote
The ending was a bit rough as well. It finished with West's whine that the evilutionists wont listen to us.

Maybe if they said something that hadn't already been refuted repeatedly for the last several decades, then somebody might listen!

On the other hand, when they manage to get yet another refutal of whichever fallacy they used this time, isn't that evidence that somebody listened?

Henry

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2012,14:01   

Closing arguments may take place next week in the case of a former Jet Propulsion Laboratory worker who claims he was fired for his advocacy of the theory of intelligent design of the universe.

Quote
[Coppedge's lawyer]Becker said his costs to date are around $75,000, but that does not include his attorney fees. “I won't put a number on it, but you can imagine what two years of work would be,” he said.


Not to mention the screenplay introduced into evidence!  I'd say his work is worth at least 10s of dollars.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Amadan



Posts: 1264
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2012,14:21   

Reading about Coppedge has for some reason brought the term "loose crayon" to mind.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2012,21:59   

Crayon? Of what caliber? :p

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2012,15:14   

We're into the closing arguments now.  

Otherwise, not much new.  The article states:  "Coppedge was called to a meeting with a supervisor on March 2, 2009, and told to "stop pushing your religion," his attorney William Becker said in his closing argument. The supervisor later claimed he was trying to help Coppedge, but Becker said the statement smacked of religious intolerance."

Oh yes, it's religious intolerance to tell some ranting jerk to shut up about religion to people who don't want to hear it yet can't leave because they're on the job.  If that is indeed what it's about (which it appears to be, but I'm hardly privy to the full range of info), I can see no merit in his whine that he can't proselytize a captive audience.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2012,19:12   

Interesting snippet from Coppedge's lawyer:

Quote
In his closing arguments Monday, Becker said Coppedge was holding conversation about intelligent design and creation in much the same way others at JPL discussed traditional science.


Yes, nothing annoying about treating religiously-inspired BS as if it were the same as science, and expecting the science-oriented to treat such religious nonsense as if it were as legitimate science.  How the law treats such matters I really don't know, but I do hope that it is never ruled that government workers have to simply put up with bogus pseudoscience because it is religious nonsense.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Cubist



Posts: 352
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,02:39   

"holding conversation about intelligent design and creation in much the same way others at JPL discussed traditional science"? Interesting. Unless I'm misreading that, Coppedge's lawyer acknowledged that "intelligent design and creation" are separate and distinct from "traditional science" -- in other words, that ID ain't science!

  
Amadan



Posts: 1264
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,09:26   

Here's an idea for a wholesome and entertaining parlour game.

We're going to draft a press release for Coppedge for when the Truth of ID is finally vindicated by the Christian values of American Justice he gets his posterior re-ventilated by the judge.

Let's say that it will have 7 sentences - we don't want the viewers on your local Fox affiliate to be overburdened with a pathetic level of detail.

Simply fill in the blanks below.  Submissions any time up to the actual verdict, a prize of a virtual beer (or sheep, Louis) to be awarded by popular acclaim for the most creative entry :

     
Quote
American justice . . . . . . . . . . . . Kenya.

Rigid . . . . . . . . . . . . Galileo.

Traditional . . . . . . . . . . . . secularism.

Controversial . . . . . . . . . . . . Darwinism.

'First they came for'  . . . . . . . . . . . . TV script.

Cassini  . . . . . . . . . . . . abortion.

Appealing . . . . . . . . . . . . PayPal.


Actually, looking at it, it would probably do just fine as it is.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Woodbine



Posts: 795
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,10:24   

On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
Quote
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,13:32   

Quote (Woodbine @ April 17 2012,10:24)
On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
 
Quote
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.

Linky?

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Amadan



Posts: 1264
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,14:12   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ April 17 2012,19:32)
Quote (Woodbine @ April 17 2012,10:24)
On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
 
Quote
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.

Linky?

ummm, I think Woodbine was giving us some authentic truthiness, Tracey.

Barton may not have said it, but we can be confident that he would have no objection to it being attributed to him. We shall therefore place it on a billboard somewhere with his name under it.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
NormOlsen



Posts: 104
Joined: Nov. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,15:25   

Quote (Amadan @ April 17 2012,14:12)
 
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ April 17 2012,19:32)
 
Quote (Woodbine @ April 17 2012,10:24)
On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
     
Quote
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.

Linky?

ummm, I think Woodbine was giving us some authentic truthiness, Tracey.

Barton may not have said it, but we can be confident that he would have no objection to it being attributed to him. We shall therefore place it on a billboard somewhere with his name under it.

Yes, that was some high quality satire.  Kind of like this:

David Suzuki's Anti-Human CBC

 
Quote
God created the biosphere so that humans could rule over it and make sweet, forcible love to it. He won’t allow it to be ruined, and even promised Noah there would not be another Great Flood. And while several of the species on Noah’s ark have since become extinct, there is convincing evidence that all of them were atheists and prolific masturbators.


Sorry if that's OT but it's so damn good.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,15:43   

Quote (Amadan @ April 17 2012,14:12)
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ April 17 2012,19:32)
Quote (Woodbine @ April 17 2012,10:24)
On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
   
Quote
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.

Linky?

ummm, I think Woodbine was giving us some authentic truthiness, Tracey.

Barton may not have said it, but we can be confident that he would have no objection to it being attributed to him. We shall therefore place it on a billboard somewhere with his name under it.

That would be ironically appropriate.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Trubble



Posts: 18
Joined: May 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,16:38   

Quote (NormOlsen @ April 17 2012,15:25)
Yes, that was some high quality satire.  Kind of like this:

David Suzuki's Anti-Human CBC

   
Quote
God created the biosphere so that humans could rule over it and make sweet, forcible love to it. He won’t allow it to be ruined, and even promised Noah there would not be another Great Flood. And while several of the species on Noah’s ark have since become extinct, there is convincing evidence that all of them were atheists and prolific masturbators.


Sorry if that's OT but it's so damn good.


I got a chuckle from Vrooman's obviously tongue-in-cheek post. Then I made the mistake of reading the comments. It appears the majority of them think he was being serious. I'm not sure what this says about the acuity of the average reader, but good christ, it says nothing good.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2012,00:23   

News article on closing arguments

The article says that the lawyers have six weeks to compose their final briefs and the judge should rule within ten days of receiving those. So expect a ruling anytime between two weeks and the early part of June.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2012,16:39   

Frustrating that we can't get the sense from the articles on how the case went. I suppose that is good in a way as it would only be truly newsworthy if Coppedge turned up some concrete evidence of discrimination.
Sadly though, JPL only seems to have started documented problems with Coppedge after the fateful meeting with Chin. Even if he was trying to protect him he should have documented everything.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2012,17:43   

As a supervisor you simply can't "document everything."

Document all faults, disagreements, negative comments by customers?  How about successes, agreements, positive comments by customers?

Can you imagine doing that for 20 people in your section?

Nope.  The bottom line was that Coppedge was a crank such that 80% (according to court documents) of his client base didn't want him near their stuff.  One director even went so far as to hire a sys admin just to keep Coppedge out of their business.

I think it's close to universal that a company doesn't have to "justify" firing an employee.  There is "firing for cause" which usually involves violence, drugs, absenteeism, etc but when it comes to a layoff, you're either in or you're out.

Coppedge didn't keep up his skills and made himself obsolete.

I think the real story is how the Disco Tute most likely engineered both suits, provided Coppedge with legal counsel and who knows what promises.  Maybe 79 virgin Casey Luskin's. Hey, you never know!

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3590
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2012,21:04   

Florida is an at will state. The company I worked for in 2001 was severely damaged by people's fear of air travel after 9/11, and shortly thereafter I was at won't.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Amadan



Posts: 1264
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 20 2012,04:21   

Quote (Doc Bill @ April 19 2012,23:43)
Maybe 79 virgin Casey Luskin's. Hey, you never know!

Well, at least you can be sure that they can deliver according to specification.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 20 2012,04:47   

Quote (Amadan @ April 20 2012,11:21)
Quote (Doc Bill @ April 19 2012,23:43)
Maybe 79 virgin Casey Luskin's. Hey, you never know!

Well, at least you can be sure that they can deliver according to specification.

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10307
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2012,12:32   

http://www.latimes.com/news....6.story

Quote
...

In 2010, he filed suit, alleging religious discrimination and harassment. Less than a year later, he was laid off, and added a wrongful termination claim. In the flurry of legal filings since, Coppedge included cartoons posted at JPL that he said mocked intelligent design. His attorney also wrote up a key conversation as a screenplay, complete with stage directions.

Defense attorneys scoffed at the accusation that Coppedge was targeted because of his beliefs. Due to budget cuts, including to the Cassini project, more than 200 employees also lost their jobs.

Coppedge had also waved off suggestions to update his computer skills and was saddled with a reputation for being "unwilling to listen and always having to do things his way," defense attorneys said in court papers.

In fact, during closing arguments, Fox asked the judge to recall Coppedge's demeanor on the witness stand. He repeatedly wandered off topic to discuss intelligent design.



Emphasis mine.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2012,13:51   

Quote
In the flurry of legal filings since, Coppedge included cartoons posted at JPL that he said mocked intelligent design.

So he thinks they shouldn't be allowed to make fun of claims that aren't substantiated and don't actually explain, well, anything?

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2153
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2012,20:57   

Quote (Henry J @ May 01 2012,11:51)
Quote
In the flurry of legal filings since, Coppedge included cartoons posted at JPL that he said mocked intelligent design.

So he thinks they shouldn't be allowed to make fun of claims that aren't substantiated and don't actually explain, well, anything?

Well, that's religion for ya... oh, wait, ID isn't religious. What? It is now? Well, colour me shocked.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2012,21:07   

The Coppedge Case Drags On

Now they're saying maybe there will be a decision in a year or two.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2012,11:31   

Quote
“I’ve asked some really good lawyers and nobody knows the answer,” Becker said. “One lawyer told me it’s as long as he wants to take. It could take a year, two years.”


Really good lawyers, eh?  What, unlike himself or the flacks he normally hangs around with?  

Really, really, like, good, lawyers.

I assume the judge could rule against Coppedge with no comment.  Simply, "no, go away."

For anyone out there with experience in these kinds of wrongful termination cases, is Coppedge typical?

  
Sealawr



Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2012,17:04   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Sep. 09 2012,11:31)
 
Quote
“I’ve asked some really good lawyers and nobody knows the answer,” Becker said. “One lawyer told me it’s as long as he wants to take. It could take a year, two years.”


Really good lawyers, eh?  What, unlike himself or the flacks he normally hangs around with?  

Really, really, like, good, lawyers.

I assume the judge could rule against Coppedge with no comment.  Simply, "no, go away."

For anyone out there with experience in these kinds of wrongful termination cases, is Coppedge typical?

Yes, the judge could rule against Coppedge with a simple "judgment for defendant."

If the plaintiff or defendant requests a "Statement of Decision," then the judge must prepare a written opinion goign into some detail.  Most judges know how to write these to bulletproof them on appeal.

Under California law, the judge must render a decision within 90 days after the case has been submitted.

Reading between the lines in the linked article, Becker has continued to submit post-trial briefs, essentially re-setting the 90 day clock.

I suspect that's why JPL is not filing a response to his latest--they don't want to re-set the clock any more.

The judge also has the power to prohibit further filings.  I do not know why the judge has not done so in this case.  Most judges I know would have cut Becker off by now and rendered the decision.

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DS: "The explantory filter is as robust as the data that is used with it."
David Klinghoffer: ""I'm an IDiot"

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 01 2012,22:38   

Judge issues "tentative ruling" in favor of JPL

Quote

A former computer specialist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory was not dismissed because he advocated his belief in intelligent design while at work, a Superior Court judge has tentatively ruled.

Judge Ernest Hiroshige said Thursday he is leaning in favor of JPL's argument that David Coppedge instead was let go because he was combative and did not keep his skills sharp.

Hiroshige, who presided over the lawsuit's trial in April, ordered a final ruling to that effect be drawn up and distributed within 30 days.


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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
sparc



Posts: 1722
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2012,06:09   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 01 2012,22:38)
Judge issues "tentative ruling" in favor of JPL

   
Quote

A former computer specialist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory was not dismissed because he advocated his belief in intelligent design while at work, a Superior Court judge has tentatively ruled.

Judge Ernest Hiroshige said Thursday he is leaning in favor of JPL's argument that David Coppedge instead was let go because he was combative and did not keep his skills sharp.
Unfortunately, it is unlikely that we will see a post at UD or EN&V stating it is fine to preach ID at work as long as you are not an asshole towards your colleagues.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Sealawr



Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2013,14:07   

Judge has issued final decison confirming the tentative.


No surprise--standard legal procedure in California.

http://www.lacanadaonline.com/news....2.story

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DS: "The explantory filter is as robust as the data that is used with it."
David Klinghoffer: ""I'm an IDiot"

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2013,15:33   

Appeal!

We shall be entertained!

Shades of Kitzmiller, I'll bet the judge simply plagiarized the defense attorney's findings.  I smell conspiracy!

Coming this summer:  Coppedge 2:  Expected Journey

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2013,16:53   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 17 2013,15:33)
Appeal!

We shall be entertained!

Shades of Kitzmiller, I'll bet the judge simply plagiarized the defense attorney's findings.  I smell conspiracy!

Coming this summer:  Coppedge 2:  Expected Journey

It will dwarf the competition!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Sealawr



Posts: 54
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2013,17:09   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 17 2013,15:33)



Shades of Kitzmiller, I'll bet the judge simply plagiarized the defense attorney's findings.  I smell conspiracy!


Correctamundo!

"Becker — who declined to comment beyond his written statement — contended that by “rubber-stamping” JPL’s proposed judgment, and not issuing a thorough written ruling of his own, it would work in Coppedge’s favor going forward."

Actually, no it doesn't.  Judges routinely "rubberstamp" the winner's proposed judgment.  That's why the winner is known as "the winner."

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DS: "The explantory filter is as robust as the data that is used with it."
David Klinghoffer: ""I'm an IDiot"

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 752
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2013,17:25   

Ha ha, Becker loses that money for which he was hoping.  Yeah, you really earned it, chump.  Good attorneys actually consider whether or not they have a case...

Go ahead, squeeze Coppedge.  Bet you won't get much, but he'll get to suffer for listening to a fool like you.

Glen Davidson

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http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
fnxtr



Posts: 2153
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2013,17:28   

Quote (Sealawr @ Jan. 17 2013,12:07)
Judge has issued final decison confirming the tentative.


No surprise--standard legal procedure in California.

[URL=http://www.lacanadaonline.com/news/tn-818-0117-judge-confirms-earlier-ruling-sides-with-jpl-in-intelligent-design-case,0,2898



922.story]http://www.lacanadaonline.com/news....2.story[/URL]

404.

eta: Found if you go to their "818 now" tab.

p.s. why do these clowns all look the same?

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2153
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2013,17:35   

Quote
"a handful of “malicious co-workers hated [Coppedge’s] Christian views,” as well as his interest in intelligent design, “which they ignorantly perceived to be a religious concept.”


As a friend said recently, "sometimes the schaden just freuds itself".

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
JohnW



Posts: 2294
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 17 2013,18:21   

Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 17 2013,15:35)
Quote
"a handful of “malicious co-workers hated [Coppedge’s] Christian views,” as well as his interest in intelligent design, “which they ignorantly perceived to be a religious concept.”


As a friend said recently, "sometimes the schaden just freuds itself".

Are any Christian colleges looking for a new Martyr In Residence?

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2013,08:08   

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 17 2013,18:21)
Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 17 2013,15:35)
Quote
"a handful of “malicious co-workers hated [Coppedge’s] Christian views,” as well as his interest in intelligent design, “which they ignorantly perceived to be a religious concept.”


As a friend said recently, "sometimes the schaden just freuds itself".

Are any Christian colleges looking for a new Martyr In Residence?

Teaching Load:

1) Historical Computer Science - learn about obsolete programming languages and networking protocols.  

2) Advanced Topics in Human Resources - Conflict resolution and disciplinary actions

3) Introduction to Witnessing - How to fake migraine headaches while in front of a judge.

4) Advanced Witnessing -Harassing coworkers for Jesus.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2013,17:24   

All the "reports" I've seen, were in "Expelled".

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"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
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