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  Topic: YEC News, The young-earth news that's fit to spew< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,10:17   

The yecs have been going hammer and tongs at this one over the last few days:

From CMI's Carl Weiland a few days ago:

http://creation.com/muscle-and-blood-in-fossil

From AiG. a "peer reviewed" article by Vera Everett ????:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....ization

on the fossilised octopus with preserved inc sacs.

The salamander story was also covered by AiG's so called "News to note" yesterday:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....1142009

Yet again, more from AiG today on a CBS programme that was broadcast on sunday evening:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/11/15/60-minutes-missing

 
Quote
The segment was hosted by a gushing CBS-TV correspondent Lesley Stahl, who, while enraptured by the T. rex’s preserved soft tissue (including elastic blood vessels, with red blood cells, in its thigh bone) right in front of her, never thought to ask the question (at least on camera): why isn’t such preservation actually highly compelling evidence that dinosaurs have been around in recent times? If dinosaurs perished 65 million years ago, how in the world could the soft tissue have possibly survived and not have dried out 64 million years ago?

60 Minutes is a Peabody-winning investigative news program. Its awards are largely a tribute to the hard-charging efforts of its former executive producer, the late Don Hewitt. Hewitt was known as someone who was a critical thinker and a good “baloney detector.” One might think that had Hewitt still been at the helm of 60 Minutes, he would have insisted that the program dive right into a staring-them-right-in-the-face controversy: that dinosaurs may have lived much more recently than evolutionists have been dogmatically proclaiming for decades. That should have been the real story on 60 Minutes Sunday night, but one that the producers and correspondent ignored. (They could have at least tried to offer an explanation as to how the tissue could have been preserved for so long.)

60 Minutes did allude to one controversy over what was really found in the T. rex’s thigh bone, but it had nothing to do with the creation/evolution debate. Some evolutionists have been trying to cast doubt on the validity of the tissue discovery. For example, they say that perhaps what has been declared as tissue is really mineral spheres (containing iron). As for the material that is “elastic” as the TV program stated (identified by the first researchers as collagen), these same detractors say that it might be “bacterial biofilm” instead, meaning that where the T. rex’s blood vessels once were, bacteria produced biofilm in its place. Ultimately, though, 60 Minutes stated that they looked just like “flexible blood vessels.”


Is CBS at fault here ? Still, talk about lying to the faithful.

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1249
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,12:51   

As far as I know, the tissue and blood vessels were not soft when found. In fact, a chemical was added to soften them up. When I last followed the issue, it was still being discussed if it was actually part of the animal or a bacteria film.
Now I'm off to google the facts.

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Kattarina98



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Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,13:04   

Panda has the facts:
http://pandasthumb.org/cgi-bin....vessels

... and more here:
http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/citation/2009/731/1

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,13:09   

The trail of dino blood seems to lead here:

http://www.plosone.org/article....0002808

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,15:17   

Quote
Panda has the facts:


What about the two recent finds Kattarina, the inc sacs and the salamander tissue. As far as I can remember, the ink in this case had to be extracted using ammonia.

and of course there's also CBS:

Quote
Ultimately, though, 60 Minutes stated that they looked just like “flexible blood vessels.”


Have they made a cock-up here ?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4382
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,18:54   

Further YEC news items can be added to this thread.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
deadman_932



Posts: 3092
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,20:39   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Nov. 16 2009,15:17)
Quote
Panda has the facts:


What about the two recent finds Kattarina, the inc sacs and the salamander tissue. As far as I can remember, the ink in this case had to be extracted using ammonia.

and of course there's also CBS:

 
Quote
Ultimately, though, 60 Minutes stated that they looked just like “flexible blood vessels.”


Have they made a cock-up here ?

There was an extended discussion over at Talk Rational -- last year, I think -- concerning some of the issues involved. This thread in particular is well worth reading, esp. some of the comments of "Dlx2 " : http://www.talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=4479

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
deadman_932



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,21:06   

Something that's bound to be used by YECs, soon:

Oregon State University (2009, November 15). Ancient penguin DNA raises doubts about accuracy of genetic dating techniques.  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110135411.htm

Subramanian, Santek and Denver, D. et al.  (2009) High mitogenomic evolutionary rates and time dependency. Trends in Genetics, Volume 25, Issue 11, 482-486, 15 October 2009.
http://www.cell.com/trends/genetics/abstract/S0168-9525(09)00178-4

Quote
Abstract:Using entire modern and ancient mitochondrial genomes of Adélie penguins (Pygoscelis adeliae) that are up to 44000 years old, we show that the rates of evolution of the mitochondrial genome are two to six times greater than those estimated from phylogenetic comparisons. Although the rate of evolution at constrained sites, including nonsynonymous positions and RNAs, varies more than twofold with time (between shallow and deep nodes), the rate of evolution at synonymous sites remains the same. The time-independent neutral evolutionary rates reported here would be useful for the study of recent evolutionary events.


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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Badger3k



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2009,23:22   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 16 2009,21:06)
Something that's bound to be used by YECs, soon:

Oregon State University (2009, November 15). Ancient penguin DNA raises doubts about accuracy of genetic dating techniques.  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110135411.htm

Subramanian, Santek and Denver, D. et al.  (2009) High mitogenomic evolutionary rates and time dependency. Trends in Genetics, Volume 25, Issue 11, 482-486, 15 October 2009.
http://www.cell.com/trends/genetics/abstract/S0168-9525(09)00178-4

Quote
Abstract:Using entire modern and ancient mitochondrial genomes of Adélie penguins (Pygoscelis adeliae) that are up to 44000 years old, we show that the rates of evolution of the mitochondrial genome are two to six times greater than those estimated from phylogenetic comparisons. Although the rate of evolution at constrained sites, including nonsynonymous positions and RNAs, varies more than twofold with time (between shallow and deep nodes), the rate of evolution at synonymous sites remains the same. The time-independent neutral evolutionary rates reported here would be useful for the study of recent evolutionary events.

Cool - I've always been curious about molecular clocks.  Different genes mutating at different rates.  I wonder what this will cause - other than give Ham and Hovind woodies, that is.

Will Billy D use this to point to a designer as well?

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
deadman_932



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2009,00:28   

I'm sure he'd leap at the chance of using any propaganda tool he could. He'd probably assign a minion to it, though.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Reed



Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2009,00:56   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Nov. 16 2009,19:06)
Something that's bound to be used by YECs, soon:

Oregon State University (2009, November 15). Ancient penguin DNA raises doubts about accuracy of genetic dating techniques.  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110135411.htm

John Hawks has some comments on this. Looks like the Darwinist suppression machine is already shifting into gear ;)

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2009,17:21   

ICR has a new propaganda film out, The Mysterious Islands.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
paragwinn



Posts: 376
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2009,19:50   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 18 2009,17:21)
ICR has a new propaganda film out, The Mysterious Islands.

Judging from the preview, they would have a pretty decent nature film if they had just left out the dialogue completely. What a wasted trip to travel that far to the Galapagos Islands just to spew the same creationist drivel that they've been re-hashing here at home.

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2009,20:37   

There are three TalkOrigins Archive articles related to the dino-meat BS.

Dino Blood and the Young Earth

Ancient Molecules and Modern Myths

Dino Blood Redux

I suppose a fourth might be in order.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2009,12:42   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 18 2009,17:21)
ICR has a new propaganda film out, The Mysterious Islands.

Everybody knows how mysteries end: "and I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you Darwinists!"  :angry:

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2009,15:04   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Nov. 19 2009,12:42)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 18 2009,17:21)
ICR has a new propaganda film out, The Mysterious Islands.

Everybody knows how mysteries end: "and I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you Darwinists!"  :angry:

"Totally at war with God."

Totally all science so far.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Peter Henderson



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 06 2010,18:53   

More claims on "faulty" radiometric dating in New Zealand from Snelling:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article....isotope

Has any scientist investigated these claims yet ?:

Quote
The Rb-Sr, Sm-Nd, and Pb-Pb radioisotopic ratios in these samples of the recent (1949–1975) andesite lava flows at Mt. Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, as anticipated, do not yield any meaningful “age” information, even with selective manipulation of the data. Instead, these data provide evidence of the mantle source of the lavas, of magma genesis, and of crustal contamination of the parental basalt magmas. Subduction of the Pacific Plate beneath the Taupo Volcanic Arc has carried trench sediments with it—sediments identical in composition to the Torlesse metasediment basement underlying, and outcropping adjacent to, these volcanoes. Scraped off the subducting slab, the sediments have contaminated the basalt magmas generated by partial melting of the peridotitic mantle wedge at the mantle-slab interface. The resultant andesite magmas rose in the melt column through the mantle wedge, and then ascended through fracture conduits in the overlying crust into magma chambers below the volcanoes that erupted when full.

The Sr-Nd-Pb radioisotopic systematics are thus characteristic of the depleted mantle source, modified by mixing with the crustal contaminant. Variations in the depleted mantle Nd “model ages”, which range from 724.5 to 1453.3 Ma, and which are meaningless in this recent (even in conventional terms) tectonic and petrogenetic framework, and the Pb isotopic linear arrays, indicate geochemical heterogeneity in the mantle wedge. Thus the radioisotopic ratios in these recent Ngauruhoe andesite lava flows were inherited from both the peridotitic mantle wedge and the subducted trench sediments, and are fundamental characteristics of their geochemistry. They therefore only reflect the origin and history of the mantle and crustal sources from which the magma was generated, and therefore have no age significance.

By implication, the radioisotopic ratios in ancient lavas found throughout the geologic record are likely fundamental characteristics of their geochemistry. They therefore probably only reflect the magmatic origin of the lavas from mantle and crustal sources, and any history of mixing or contamination in their petrogenesis, rather than any valid age information. Even though radioisotopic decay has undoubtedly occurred during the earth’s history, conventional radioisotopic dating of these rocks therefore does not necessarily provide valid absolute “ages” for them. This is especially so if accelerated nuclear decay accompanied the catastrophic operation of those geologic and tectonic processes responsible for the mixing of the radioisotopic decay products during magma genesis.


A job for someone then, especially as it's puporting to be peer reviewed science.

  
Quack



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 07 2010,04:40   

With AiG being a creationism propaganda organization, obviously aimed at a general audience consisting of primarily fundamentalist creationists, with the purpose of supporting the belief in six-day creation and a literal reading of Genesis, I don’t see how stuff like that is relevant – except to impress the crowd with sciency stuff.

I think I am reasonably well informed and knowledgeable person, but from reading the Snelling piece I can only conclude that in order to determine if I think he’s got a valid argument, I’d have to do quite a thorough study of geology and nuclear physics.

As far as I am concerned I don’t for a second think that his argument is of much relevance for the question of the age of the Earth or the planet’s geological and biological history.

The problem is that creationists don’t believe science beyond facts like gravity, and don’t want to learn science. They believe creationism and ‘study’ creationism.

BTW, isn’t Snelling his own twin?

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The fundamental choice to be made, given the available information, is not whether chance provides a better explanation than design, but whether natural laws provide a better explanation than a design.

  
MichaelJ



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 07 2010,05:23   

The thing is that before any of the dating methods and before Darwin people could figure out that the world was far older than 6000 years.

We go camping at the Wombeyan caves. These caves with stalagmites and Stalactites formed from marble. I'd like any creationist show me how you can form a deep coral reef. bury it, cook it by a nearby volcanoe. Massive caves slowly eroded by water and the limestone features metres high being created.

This is a process that takes millions of years, any quicker and it wouldn't work.

  
Peter Henderson



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 07 2010,07:09   

Quote
As far as I am concerned I don’t for a second think that his argument is of much relevance for the question of the age of the Earth or the planet’s geological and biological history.


Try telling that to a YEC though Quack. Uneducated YECs will read this and thoroughly digest it as real scientific research that proves the Earth isn't at least 3.8 billion years old (the oldest terrestrial rock dates) and that serious flaws exist with radiomatric dating techniques. Someone in geology circles needs to have a look at this so called research and inform us lesser educated individuals what Snelling's claims actually are, how and why he has deduced a 6,000 year old Earth from them, and why his "research" is flawed.

It's a pity talkorigins isn't updating anymore and that the site has been left to fester somewhat. A shame.

  
JonF



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 07 2010,08:11   

That article's a rehash of his 1998-ish work in The Cause of Anomalous Potassium-Argon "Ages" for Recent Andesite Flows at Mt. Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, and the Implications for Potassium-Argon "Dating". Large swathes of the "new" article are word-for-word cut-and-pasted from the old article.

Ngauruhoe lava is chock-full of xenoliths; it's a mixture of old and new material. Any dating of Ngauruhoe lava is invalid unless the method for separating the xenoliths is specified. I quote Snelling:

 
Quote
All samples were sent first for sectioning—one thin section from each sample. These were subsequently all carefully examined under a petrographic microscope and their mineralogy and textures recorded. A set of representative pieces from each sample (approximately 100 g) was then dispatched to the AMDEL Laboratory in Adelaide, South Australia, for whole-rock major, trace and rare earth element analyses. A representative set (50–100 g from each sample) was also sent to Geochron Laboratories in Cambridge (Boston), Massachusetts, for whole-rock potassium-argon (K-Ar) dating.81 A third representative set (50–100 g from ten of the samples—two samples from each flow) was sent to the PRISE Laboratory in the Research School of Earth Sciences at the Australian National University in Canberra, Australia, for Rb-Sr, Sm-Nd, and Pb-Pb isotopic determinations.

At the AMDEL Laboratory each sample was crushed and pulverized. Whole-rock analyses were undertaken by total fusion of each powdered sample and then digesting them before ICP-OES (inductively coupled plasma—optical emission spectrometry) for major and minor elements, and ICP-MS (inductively coupled plasma—mass spectrometry) for trace and rare earth elements. Fe was analyzed for amongst the major elements by ICP-OES as Fe2O3 and reported accordingly. Additionally, separate analyses for Fe as FeO were undertaken via wet chemistry methods, which were also used to measure the loss on ignition (primarily H2O content). The detection limit for all major element oxides was 0.01%. For minor and trace elements the detection limits varied between 0.5 and 20 ppm, and for rare earth elements between 0.5 and 1 ppm.

The Rb-Sr, Sm-Nd, and Pb-Pb isotopic analyses were undertaken at the PRISE Laboratory under the direction of Dr. Richard Armstrong. No specific sample location or expected age information was supplied to the laboratory, although samples were described as young andesites so that the laboratory staff would optimize the sample preparation procedure in order to obtain the best analytical results. At the laboratory the sample pieces were crushed and pulverized, and then dissolved in concentrated hydrofluoric acid, followed by the standard chemical separation procedures for each of these isotopic systems. Once separated, the elements in each isotopic system were loaded by standard procedures onto metal filaments to be used in the solid source thermal ionization mass spectrometer (TIMS), the state-of-the-art technology in use in this laboratory. Sr isotopes were measured using the mass fractionation correction 86Sr/88Sr = 0.1194. The 87Sr/86Sr ratios reported were normalized to the NBS standard SRM 987 value of 0.710207. Nd isotopes were corrected for mass fractionation using 146Nd/144Nd = 0.7219, and were normalized to the present-day 143Nd/144Nd value of 0.51268 for BCR-1. Pb isotope ratios were normalized to NBS standard SRM 981 for mass fractionation.

...

Steiner111 stressed that xenoliths are a common constituent of the 1954 Ngauruhoe lavas, but also noted that Battey112 reported the 1949 Ngauruhoe lava was rich in xenoliths. All samples in this study contained xenoliths, including those from the 1975 avalanche material.

{emphasis added}

"Whole-rock" means what it says; the entire sample is crushed and analyzed without any attempt to separate any constituents. Nobody separated the xenoliths.

It's pure garbage, and even recycled garbage.

{ABE: Geochron hasn't done K-Ar analyses for several years. It's declined in popularity, and their main K-Ar guy quit, so they just shut sown the division}.

  
fnxtr



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 07 2010,09:51   

Yeah, that's the picture I got from the screed, too, JonF, and I have only 1st year geology for arts geeks. The entire field is contaminated with rocks of differing ages, making isotope-dating pretty much impossible.

Even if they can prove the contamination by xenoliths in every single igneous rock bed ever isotope-dated, everywhere in the world, all that proves is contamination, and the need to separate out xenoliths before dating methods are applied (if that's even possible).  

Still not support for any young earth claims.

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Peter Henderson



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2010,18:50   

More from Snelling, this time a new book which is an update of the Genesis Flood, apparently:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicS....26.aspx

Quote
Finally, the long-awaited update to the Morris/Whitcomb classic, The Genesis Flood! This huge 2-volume set is filled with up-to-date geological evidence that demonstrates the authority and accuracy of the Bible’s account of creation and the Flood. Step by step, respected Australian geologist Dr. Andrew Snelling examines evolutionary interpretations of the geologic record and deconstructs the misplaced assumptions and conclusions on which those interpretations are based. With in-depth scholarly research and insight, he then constructs a biblical geologic model for earth history and concludes that the claims of Genesis 1–11 are true. Topics covered include:

The biblical record of the Flood
Arguments used against the global Genesis Flood
Noah, the Ark, and the animals
The framework for a scriptural geology
A biblical geologic model of earth history
Includes 126 chapters, selected bibliography, index and numerous color figures/illustrations
.

Is anyone up for a review ? Obviously lots of new claims.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2010,20:37   

Why would you think that there are *any* new claims? Or was that sarcasm?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2010,21:11   

Does it say anything about Antarctic ice sheets, Greenland glaciers, etc.? Does it explain how a bird sent from the ark came back with a fresh leaf from a tree, after the flood killed all the trees?

Not to mention the people in Egypt and China who left records through that period without noticing that they drowned.

There's also the marsupials in Australia that weren't and aren't closely related to any particular order of placental mammals. If the current marsupials weren't contiguous with the fossil record of marsupials, seems like somebody would have documented it already.

Henry

  
RDK



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Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2010,22:13   

Quote
Finally, the long-awaited update to the Morris/Whitcomb classic, The Genesis Flood!


HAHA, wow, that shit had me rollin'.

The "finally" always gets me, though; it's like even the creotards themselves know that they're god-awful with deadlines.  I suppose the old xian adage about how, to Yahweh, a couple seconds is an eon and an eon is a couple second is yet another projection from the fundies onto their imaginary friend.

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Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 15 2010,23:33   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Jan. 15 2010,16:50)
Quote
The biblical record of the Flood
Arguments used against the global Genesis Flood
Noah, the Ark, and the animals
The framework for a scriptural geology
A biblical geologic model of earth history
Includes 126 chapters, selected bibliography, index and numerous color figures/illustrations
.

Is anyone up for a review ? Obviously lots of new claims.

I doubt they have anything new. I never buy a new book by any creationist. I wait for a used book (if any). I refuse to ever give even a tiny royalty to a lying creato shit-sucker. (Note that occasional creato books are actually dumped, and are sold at ~50% of retail- these are actually remaindered, and I count them as "used").

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Peter Henderson



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 16 2010,06:27   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 15 2010,20:37)
Why would you think that there are *any* new claims? Or was that sarcasm?

Wesley: You should know me by now ! I was partly being facetious, though I was also thinking of the RATE project and so on which are bound to be included !

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2010,19:52   

There is now a Creation Letter Project in opposition to the Clergy Letter Project.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Amadan



Posts: 1230
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 02 2010,10:03   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Jan. 29 2010,19:52)
There is now a Creation Letter Project in opposition to the Clergy Letter Project.

An old song comes to mind.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
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