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  Topic: Discussing "Explore Evolution", Have at it.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 18 2008,13:56   

Paul, sometimes the trains run you.

Skeezer.  Riding the trains for Jesus.  Gettin' rode like a train.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 197
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2008,04:07   

EvolutionNews mentions EE
"Oh yeah, they do use a graphic of Explore Evolution that they urgently demanded as well--with dismissive caption that doesn't even describe the book. Well, I guess at least we can describe Explore Evolution as "featured in Science.""

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I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2008,06:42   

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ June 23 2008,04:07)
EvolutionNews mentions EE
"Oh yeah, they do use a graphic of Explore Evolution that they urgently demanded as well--with dismissive caption that doesn't even describe the book. Well, I guess at least we can describe Explore Evolution as "featured in Science.""

I also loved this sentence  
Quote
The reporter interviewed CSC's John West for upwards of an hour seemingly trying to get the facts straight.

I can't imagine that a single straight fact was ever mentioned in that hour...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2008,07:40   

Paul dropped by yesterday after church, and he is a bit early this morning  
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   June 23 2008,07:28

I think he is trying to mix up his schedule for us. I guess we should hold off on using his appearances to synchronize our watches, or the trains.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Goffr



Posts: 14
Joined: Feb. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2008,07:38   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 25 2008,08:53)
JAM wrote:

   
Quote
The answer is that since we know that the underlying molecular mechanisms are incredibly conserved, it's not a problem.


This assumes the point at issue.  To wit: We already know the mammal-like reptiles are related by descent with modification, via the natural selection of randomly-arising variation (or an array of unknown evolutionary mechanisms, if selection does not suffice).  Therefore their size differences are easy to explain.

What independent evidence do you have for the molecular mechanisms (regulating body size) at work in the extinct groups -- therapsids, etc. -- featured in the reptile-to-mammal sequence?

In what natural populations of canids, JAM, do we observe size differences on the scale seen in domesticated dogs?

Maybe canines aren't the best example to use, considering that they have been living and have been bred by humans for millennia.

I'd recommend looking at a group of animals from a continent that hasn't had so much in the way of overpopulation of humans, Australia.

If you want to see some real diversity in size differences in a particular animal, check out the kangaroo (Macropodidae) family.

Fossils indicate the largest kangaroo, Procoptodon, was about 3 metres (10 feet) in height, and wighted an estimated 232 kg (507 pounds).

The largest living kangaroos at the moment, the red kangaroo, grows to 2 meters (6 ft 7 in) tall and weighs 90 kg (200 lb).

One of smallest of the Macropodidae family weigh in at somewhere around 2.5 to 5 kg and are only about 40 to 54 cm long.

The extended family makes it down to rat size, whilst maintaining very kangaroo orientated features.

Variation in size is quite huge in the family, they are mostly non-extinct and have been left alone by humans. Natural selection is the only force at work with these animals. The differences between the various species are piecemeal and it's quite obvious where its evolutionary roots lie - see the sub-order Macropodiformes for the extended family.

Also, one particular genus (Dendrolagus) learnt to climb trees! I don't see dogs climbing trees. ;)

Anyways, what's going on with the evisceration of Explore Evolution? I keep on checking this page to see some juicy lies being torn apart but its not happening. It makes me sad.  :(

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2008,07:59   

Paul is having some identity issues and I heard Exodus was involved.  Or it could be that he is just a regular old dishonest tard-peddler and he has found some school children to molest with stupid vacuous ideas.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,08:05   

Quote
109 guests, 12 Public Members and 0 Anonymous Members   [ View Complete List ]
>Lou FCD >Jake >Louis >travhelp >J-Dog >Bob O'H >Zachriel >themartu >oldmanintheskydidntdoit >Erasmus, FCD >Goffr >Shirley Knott


Let's go, Paul.  I haven't got all frackin' day.  The blogoverse needs to be titillated and you're holdin' up the works here.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2008,14:28   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 23 2008,07:40)
Paul dropped by yesterday after church, and he is a bit early this morning    
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   June 23 2008,07:28

I think he is trying to mix up his schedule for us. I guess we should hold off on using his appearances to synchronize our watches, or the trains.

Hey Paul - did you ever get someone to run the alignment and pnhylogenetic analysis on the sequences I sent you via Helen Fryman a few years ago to test your claim that investigator bias totally skews such analyses?

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,08:54   

Paul must be in a different time zone today - he missed his regular 8 AM appointment.
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   June 30 2008,08:44


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 30 2008,13:10   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 30 2008,09:54)
Paul must be in a different time zone today - he missed his regular 8 AM appointment.  
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   June 30 2008,08:44

He does that on purpose to annoy me.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,07:29   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ June 24 2008,07:59)
Paul is having some identity issues and I heard Exodus was involved.  Or it could be that he is just a regular old dishonest tard-peddler and he has found some school children to molest with stupid vacuous ideas.

So you disagree with this Paul person so therefore he's a child molester?

Wow, no wonder you shout out "God did it", which is of course the ultimate cause and we're now truly seeing how through science God's plans are unfolding, when you come across something you don't understand.

And I keep on hearing they say Creationists only do that.  What is this "projection thing" again?

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,07:50   

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,07:29)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,June 24 2008,07:59)
Paul is having some identity issues and I heard Exodus was involved.  Or it could be that he is just a regular old dishonest tard-peddler and he has found some school children to molest with stupid vacuous ideas.

So you disagree with this Paul person so therefore he's a child molester?

Wow, no wonder you shout out "God did it", which is of course the ultimate cause and we're now truly seeing how through science God's plans are unfolding, when you come across something you don't understand.

And I keep on hearing they say Creationists only do that.  What is this "projection thing" again?

Reading comprehension, syntax, you're doing it wrong.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,07:58   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 01 2008,07:50)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,07:29)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,June 24 2008,07:59)
Paul is having some identity issues and I heard Exodus was involved.  Or it could be that he is just a regular old dishonest tard-peddler and he has found some school children to molest with stupid vacuous ideas.

So you disagree with this Paul person so therefore he's a child molester?

Wow, no wonder you shout out "God did it", which is of course the ultimate cause and we're now truly seeing how through science God's plans are unfolding, when you come across something you don't understand.

And I keep on hearing they say Creationists only do that.  What is this "projection thing" again?

Reading comprehension, syntax, you're doing it wrong.

Oh, I see.  To you all creationists are ignorant morons and or buffoons.  That's a real neat trick you've got going.  See, I am educated.  See I'm an engineer.  While I can't spell my way out of a paper bag, I can design it for you.

Again though, you disagree with Paul so you'll slander him.  Is that a fair statement.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,08:26   

surely not an engineer!!!!

lcd, try reading the bulk of this thread and then tell us how we have misunderestimated Dr Paul and his promises, lies and hand waving obfuscations.

While you are at it, why don't you prove you are educated and tell us just what your little ol problem is, honey?  you can spell any which way you please sugar just get it out there and off of your chest.




--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3559
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,08:26   

Quote
To you all creationists are ignorant morons and or buffoons.


Just the ones we've met on the internet.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4484
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,08:29   

Quote

To you all creationists are ignorant morons and or buffoons.


Religiously motivated antievolutionists are often sincere but deluded. Some are quite bright in some field of endeavor, usually far removed from the biological sciences.

There is, however, little room to excuse the writers of "Explore Evolution" from its many faults.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
lcd



Posts: 137
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:24   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 01 2008,08:29)
Quote

To you all creationists are ignorant morons and or buffoons.


Religiously motivated antievolutionists are often sincere but deluded. Some are quite bright in some field of endeavor, usually far removed from the biological sciences.

There is, however, little room to excuse the writers of "Explore Evolution" from its many faults.

So some beliefs, like creation, is deluded while other beliefs, like evolution, is "from learning and studying"?  Who makes those determinations?

As for biology, I think engineering is very useful for ID and ID based biology.  As an Engineer, we understand the complexity of systems and can find the designs in the structures.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1007
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:25   

Paulie is late today (10:20 AM CDT):
Quote
50 guests, 12 Public Members and 1 Anonymous Members   [ View Complete List ]
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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4484
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,10:54   

The topic here is "Explore Evolution". Other stuff can be discussed on the Bathroom Wall thread.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2008,18:49   

Haven't seen Paul around the web lately.

Poor guy.  Must be long hours at the quote mine.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2008,09:20   

Hey, Paul

Re our past conversations about Haeckel, and the abundant distortions about him in your book, you might be interested to know that there is a new biography of Haeckel available. Here's part of the publisher's description.    
Quote
The Tragic Sense of Life examines the intellectual context as well as the intimate experiences and profound convictions that allowed Darwin’s message to become almost a religious calling for Haeckel. Far from shying away from the many controversies that marked Haeckel’s life and career, Richards engages Haeckel’s many challengers and dissenters, whose accusations against him range from the charge that he falsified some of his famous drawings to the supposedly proto-Nazi quality of his biological theories. Reappraising Haeckel’s accomplishments, artistic endeavors, many battles, personal relationships, and searing loves, Richards convincingly demonstrates the enormous impact Haeckel had on biology and larger scientific affairs during the last half of the nineteenth and early part of the twentieth centuries.

I review books for Choice, the book review journal of the American Library Association, and I just got a notice that they will be sending me this book for review. When I get the review finished I'll send it to you if you are interested. Or maybe you can read it yourself, and come to your own idiosyncratic conclusions...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2008,09:55   

Hi Alb,

Bob Richards, the author of the Haeckel biography, served on my dissertation committee at the U of C.  I was a member of his graduate seminar on Haeckel, 1989-90, and more recently have exchanged correspondence with him about Haeckel's diagrams.

I didn't realize The Tragic Sense of Life was out, however.  (I've read some of the chapter drafts.)  Thanks for the tip -- I'll have to order a copy.  And I would be interested in seeing your review for Choice.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2008,11:40   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ July 03 2008,09:55)
Hi Alb,

Bob Richards, the author of the Haeckel biography, served on my dissertation committee at the U of C.  I was a member of his graduate seminar on Haeckel, 1989-90, and more recently have exchanged correspondence with him about Haeckel's diagrams.

I didn't realize The Tragic Sense of Life was out, however.  (I've read some of the chapter drafts.)  Thanks for the tip -- I'll have to order a copy.  And I would be interested in seeing your review for Choice.

Paul

That's quite a disturbing admission. It appears that you have been exposed to a lot of scholarly erudition re Haeckel. Yet your book contains falsehoods about his current impact on biology textbooks, and you are associated with the DI, where another fellow has published another book with falsehoods about relationships between Darwin, Haeckel, and Hitler. Yet you go blithely on, as if none of this matters...

What powerful kool-aid you have drunk!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2008,12:43   

O Come, All Ye Photo-shoppers



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
stevestory



Posts: 8898
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2008,14:59   

Quote
That's quite a disturbing admission. It appears that you have been exposed to a lot of scholarly erudition re Haeckel. Yet your book contains falsehoods about his current impact on biology textbooks, and you are associated with the DI, where another fellow has published another book with falsehoods about relationships between Darwin, Haeckel, and Hitler. Yet you go blithely on, as if none of this matters...


That's the sad transition everyone goes through with Paul. He's superficially nice and pleasant so you give him the benefit of the doubt at first. Slowly you realize he has to know his claims are BS, yet he keeps doing it, and he's just as dishonest as the rest of them.

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2008,18:47   

Yeah, that was a sad realization for me that it took quite a lot more energy   and understanding of the material to quote mine than to simply quote.

The pitiful, deluded creationists who simply reply to a question with a quote or a link are just the foot soldiers, carrying out orders.

But, the masterminds must spend time to put the ellipsis in just the right place.  It must be done del-i-cate-ly, as the Wicked Witch of the West said.  Thus, the expert quote miner, like Paul, for example, must understand the context of the text he is corrupting in order not to "spoil the spell."

However, as intellectually dishonest as I think Paul is, my curiosity is piqued to hear from Paul himself how he views his efforts to portray the "other side" of evolutionary theory.

Are you proud to be a creationist gangsta, Paul, or do you disagree with my assessment?  And why?  Feel free to use an extra Blue Book as necessary.

  
Quack



Posts: 1755
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2008,03:25   

Quote
That's the sad transition everyone goes through with Paul. He's superficially nice and pleasant so you give him the benefit of the doubt at first. Slowly you realize he has to know his claims are BS, yet he keeps doing it, and he's just as dishonest as the rest of them.


That's one of the problems when dealing with people - it is very hard to see what is lurking behind the mask. Snake oil salesmen, politicians, wife-beaters - and IDers?

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YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2008,21:32   

Quote (stevestory @ July 03 2008,12:59)
That's the sad transition everyone goes through with Paul. He's superficially nice and pleasant so you give him the benefit of the doubt at first. Slowly you realize he has to know his claims are BS, yet he keeps doing it, and he's just as dishonest as the rest of them.

I suspect that Paul has made the same Faustian bargain as Kurt Wise:
Quote
Either the Scripture was true and evolution was wrong or evolution was true and I must toss out the Bible. However, at that moment I thought back to seven or so years before when a Bible was pushed to a position in front of me and I had come to know Jesus Christ. I had in those years come to know Him. I had become familiar with His love and His concern for me. He had become a real friend to me. He was the reason I was even alive both physically and spiritually. I could not reject Him. Yet, I had come to know Him through His Word. I could not reject that either. It was there that night that I accepted the Word of God and rejected all that would ever counter it, including evolution. With that, in great sorrow, I tossed into the fire all my dreams and hopes in science.

They're convinced of a Higher Truth, and they think it's just a matter of time until science "catches up" and confirms what they already know.  In the meantime, they've taken a position that requires them to be very selective about the evidence they consider and the reasoning they apply to it -- a position that collapses otherwise. It's not so surprising when the selectivity and "creative" reasoning get applied to peripheral issues like Haeckel's embryos.  In the end, what's the big deal about a few white lies if they keep people pointed in the direction of Truth?

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1956
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2008,00:44   

I have made several attempts at EE.  I have deployed many 'postit' notes and then gave up and am now writting in red ink all over the pages of this terrible book.

I really should start posting, becasue it will be too large a task by the time I finish reading EE. I have taken several breaks in which I read several other books- mostly written by creationists.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 05 2008,06:29   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 05 2008,00:44)
I have made several attempts at EE.  I have deployed many 'postit' notes and then gave up and am now writting in red ink all over the pages of this terrible book.

I really should start posting, becasue it will be too large a task by the time I finish reading EE. I have taken several breaks in which I read several other books- mostly written by creationists.

Yes, the sad reality about EE and its ilk (Pandas, Design of Life) is that, compared to the books themselves, it takes a lot more pages to rebut the arguments. It is amazing how good they have become at compacting garbage to an incredibly high density...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
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