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  Topic: Discussing "Explore Evolution", Have at it.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2008,07:50   

Quote
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>Lou FCD >keiths >dogdidit >George >Paul Nelson >Jake >Boyara >Jazafcxp >EyeNoU


8:47 Eastern

ETA:  I think that's a triple hat trick for me.  Is there a big silver cup or something for that?

Edited again for biggereration.

Edited by Lou FCD on May 27 2008,08:53

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2008,13:54   

"biggereration"?  :p

  
raguel



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(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2008,15:58   

Since I've hinted at this, let me say it explicitly: the most compelling case for evolution imo is the consilience of the evidence of the evidence. In other words, IMO several oppurtunities for falsification, despite creationists objections to the contrary, and yet through using different disciplines and techniques the evidence converge on a single reality: evolution.

I have googled for any creationists attempt to explain away both fossil and evo-devo evidence wrt mammalian ears, and the best I got was from Stephen E. Jones:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejone....ntrnstn

Quote
8. Mammals
1. Reptile jawbone-mammal earbone transition
Evolution cannot explain why a line of reptiles, which can hear perfectly well, would start to
transform their entire jawbone-earbone structure for the benefit of a future line of mammals. Gould asks:
"Embryology and paleontology provide adequate documentation of the `how,' but we would also like more
insight into the `why.' In particular, why should such a transition occur-especially since the single-boned
stapedial ear seems to function quite adequately (and, at least in some birds, every bit as well as the three-
boned mammalian ear)? " (Gould, 1993, p.106)


Hmm. Well, I suppose evilushinists would gladly grant that they don't know "why" if creationists would grant that they do know how, and thus by implication that it happened at all.  This btw, is a perfect example of what I think of when I think of the phrases "Christian Apologetics" or "can't see the forest for the trees".

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2008,15:30   

Yep, there's lots of places and ways in which contrary evidence should have already accumulated if the current theory wasn't reasonably accurate.

That (as I understand it) is pretty much the reason for acceptance of any scientific theory - lots of places that could have contradicted it, but didn't.

Henry

  
hooligans



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(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2008,14:58   

I'm curious if anyone has bothered to check in with some of hte people who endorsed the 1st version of Explore Evolution. One was Doug Cowan from George R. Curtis Senior High School Biology near Tacoma, WA.

He said:  
Quote
Explore Evolution is an excellent resource for those who wish to study the topic of neo-Darwinian evolution objectively. The standard pillars of the theory are examined from all sides objectively, but more importantly, civilly. The inquiry approach is excellent for students as they use critical thinking skills to "explore" cutting edge information in an evidence for and evidence against format, leaving room for further debate and questions. The students can follow the evidence wherever it leads and form their own conclusions, or as Charles Darwin said, "A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question"


His email is  dcowan AT upsd DOT wednet DOT edu. The department chair of biology at his school is Peter Heussman. His email is pheussman AT upsd DOT wednet DOT edu

I happen to know that they are doing a textbook adoption this year. I wonder, now that the year is over, if Explore Evolution was one of the texts piloted? I wonder what decision was made? I wonder what feedback Doug Cowan or Peter Heussman have for Paul Nelson. Perhaps someone should enquire? I'm rather shy.

Edited by Lou FCD on May 30 2008,16:16

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2008,15:15   

I'm going to break those email links to avoid having spambots follow them hooligans.

They should be easy to figure out.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2008,17:35   

Quote (hooligans @ May 30 2008,15:58)
I'm curious if anyone has bothered to check in with some of hte people who endorsed the 1st version of Explore Evolution. One was Doug Cowan from George R. Curtis Senior High School Biology near Tacoma, WA.

He said:    
Quote
Explore Evolution is an excellent resource for those who wish to study the topic of neo-Darwinian evolution objectively. The standard pillars of the theory are examined from all sides objectively, but more importantly, civilly. The inquiry approach is excellent for students as they use critical thinking skills to "explore" cutting edge information in an evidence for and evidence against format, leaving room for further debate and questions. The students can follow the evidence wherever it leads and form their own conclusions, or as Charles Darwin said, "A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question"


His email is  dcowan AT upsd DOT wednet DOT edu. The department chair of biology at his school is Peter Heussman. His email is pheussman AT upsd DOT wednet DOT edu

I happen to know that they are doing a textbook adoption this year. I wonder, now that the year is over, if Explore Evolution was one of the texts piloted? I wonder what decision was made? I wonder what feedback Doug Cowan or Peter Heussman have for Paul Nelson. Perhaps someone should enquire? I'm rather shy.

What went wrong in Dover was that the yokel creationists weren't savvy about hiding their religious motivations and content. They made lots of belligerent "Don't you love Jesus?" type remarks before the Discovery Institute got there. Explore Evolution and this business in Tacoma is presumably the DI's attempt to get the locals saying the dishonest PR stuff from the very beginning, the better to survive a court challenge. I doubt there's any point in talking to Doug Cowan, as he's likely been covertly set up from the beginning to carefully use the right language. I don't think Cowan is stupid enough to believe a book funded by the DI and written by a bunch of Dissent from Darwin signers is 'objective', I think he's part of the next phase of the creationist strategy.

As I've said for years, I think eventually they could water it down enough to hide their true nature from the courts. As a friend said recently, "At first it was 'evolution sucks, therefore Jesus', then it became 'evolution sucks, therefore unnamed designer', and now it looks like 'evolution sucks'."

('course, there's always the possibility that Cowan is a raving nutter and that his nuttery can be located on the internet. I haven't looked)

   
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2008,20:41   

Back to Dover, what was the bulkhead?

Who stood fast and said, "No!"

Who said that teaching ID violated the ethics code they had agreed to?

The School Board?  No.

The Administrators?  No.

The Science Teachers?  Yes!

At Dover, ID was forced on the students because the Science Teachers ALL refused to teach it pointing to their ethical obligation to teach only what was true.

The DI conveniently avoids visiting this point.

Teachers are and always are on the front line.  Support your teachers.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2008,21:40   

Quote (Doc Bill @ May 30 2008,21:41)
Teachers are and always are on the front line.  Support your teachers.

...or become one.  That's my plan.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2008,08:17   

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>Asistond >Lou FCD >EyeNoU >mitschlag >annoveenfox >Paul Nelson >JonF >ERV >nataliedestror


9:12 Eastern

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2008,21:12   

Quote
I think the Discovery Institute is toast, and are going to be increasingly irrelevant. The Wedge document is dead and gone; their strategy of pretending to have a secular goal has failed; and everyone can see through their claim that "Intelligent Design" is something other than creationism.
...
Creationism is not dead, but is still a dangerous force for ignorance. And of course, the Discovery Institute is going to be trying hard to reinvent itself. We're looking at several new strategies already: there's the clamoring for "academic freedom" bills, and also the magic words of "strengths and weaknesses".
...
they intend to overlook the strengths of modern biology and focus on imaginary weaknesses invented by ignorant creationists.
...
Liars and con men just have to keep moving to keep their misdeeds from catching up with them, and the DI is going to have to scramble to redefine their intellectual swindle.


It's almost like he's talking specifically about Paul.

   
fusilier



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Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: June 05 2008,08:26   

I'm not Dr. GH, and I don't play him on TV -but I have started to read the book.

Overall, the first thing that strikes me is that it is damned small - only 159 pp including index, and excluding 3.5 pp of preface.  There's lots of "production value" in glossy, thick pages, so this is an expensive book to manufacture.  For comparison, the human ANP photo atlas I use as a supplement (van de Graaff & Crawley, from Morton Publishing) has slightly thinner pages.

Why am I thinking style over substance?

The preface pages are not numbered, but the lies start there. P i uses the term "origins debate."  Those two words alone tell us this is nothing but creationism.  NO scientist uses that concept.

P ii includes wording from the Santorum Amendment proposed for the No Child Left Behind act.  Further, it refers to that failed amendment as "authoritative."

Honest people, of course, know that Santorum's wording was explicitly rejected by the House, and was rejected during conference committee meetings, but the authors conspicuously imply otherwise.

I'm still in the process of reading the thing - but I am also trying to deal with an "upgrade" in the BlackBoard software I'm required to use for grading, so it will be a while before I can post more comments.

Oh, just an observation - while there are moderately extensive chapter endnotes referencing alleged controversies, they all seem to be bare citations, with no discussion of the actual content of the paper.

IOW, quote-mining.


<edited to fix minor punctuation errors.>

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: June 05 2008,10:30   

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>carlsonjok >Lowell >stevestory >Richardthughes >Paul Nelson >k.e..


Hi Paul!  'Sup, dude?

I thought I might mention that your associate, Dr. Dembski, has posted on his blog a link to a website www.strengthsandweaknesses.org that promulgates the Haeckel's embryos story.  Since Albatrossity has shared with you a comprehensive review of a majority of the currently available biology textbooks and has thoroughly debunked the idea that Haeckel's embryos are still being taught, should we expect that you will share Albie's thorough analysis with Dr. Dembski and the aptly named Texans for Better Science Education?  Of course, we should!   We wouldn't want folks who are trying to improve science to be spreading false information, now would we? Thanks in advance for helping to correct this oversight.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: June 05 2008,12:43   

Quote (fusilier @ June 05 2008,06:26)
I'm not Dr. GH, and I don't play him on TV -but I have started to read the book.

I made the mistake of starting at the beginning.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
afarensis



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(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2008,23:57   

Quote (Dr.GH @ June 05 2008,12:43)
Quote (fusilier @ June 05 2008,06:26)
I'm not Dr. GH, and I don't play him on TV -but I have started to read the book.

I made the mistake of starting at the beginning.

yes, I made that mistake too. I expected it would get better, like most works of fiction, as I got further into it. Alas. I was wretchedly disappointed.   :angry:

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 08 2008,08:02   

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>Lou FCD >olegt >Zarquon >huizyu >Paul Nelson


Hello Darlin'.
Nice to see you.
It's been a long time.
You're just as lovely,
As you used
to be.

/Conway Twitty

ETA:  Ain't you asposed to be in church or somethin'?

Edited by Lou FCD on June 08 2008,09:04

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2008,08:15   

Hey, Lou

You must have slept in this morning, so you missed this.

Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   June 09 2008,07:58


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2008,19:09   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 09 2008,09:15)
Hey, Lou

You must have slept in this morning, so you missed this.

 
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   June 09 2008,07:58

Heh, actually, I did.  I was up late writing smut.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2008,20:40   

Given the frequency and pointlessness of Paul checking the board at 8-9am every day, I suspect he's not actually checking in. Might be something like he has a group of 20 bookmarks and when he gets to the office he hits 'Open All in Tabs' or something.

   
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: June 09 2008,22:03   

Quote
Lou FCD
I was up late writing smut.


Isn't that a kind of fungus? :p

Henry

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2008,07:59   

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I was up on time today.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2008,08:00   

Quote (stevestory @ June 09 2008,21:40)
Given the frequency and pointlessness of Paul checking the board at 8-9am every day, I suspect he's not actually checking in. Might be something like he has a group of 20 bookmarks and when he gets to the office he hits 'Open All in Tabs' or something.

Now that's a pretty could hypothesis, Steve.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2008,08:03   

Quote (Henry J @ June 09 2008,23:03)
Quote
Lou FCD
I was up late writing smut.


Isn't that a kind of fungus? :p

Henry

While I'm sure there's a kink for everything (and a website to address it, probably), I think that one's outside my purview.

:p

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2008,20:43   

coochie coochie coo

Paul, have you gotten around to Lenny's criticisms yet?  kthnxbai

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2008,21:43   

Well, now I'm all kinds of hot and bothered...

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2008,07:13   

Hi, Paul

Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   June 13 2008,07:10

Read any good books lately?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2008,08:07   

8 a.m.

Right on time.  Paul should be running the trains!


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Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2008,15:30   

Well, my copy of "Only a Theory" just arrived.

EE will need to wait a few hours more.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2008,19:19   

Quote (Doc Bill @ June 16 2008,09:07)
8 a.m.

Right on time.  Paul should be running the trains!


Quote
53 guests, 10 Public Members and 0 Anonymous Members   [ View Complete List ]
>Doc Bill >utidjian >EyeNoU >Paul Nelson >Maya >celdd >JonF >DiEb >k.e.. >Richard Simons

If Paul were running the trains, he'd promise this revolutionary new train, which he'll unveil later today, no i mean tomorrow, no by Friday, sometime early next week, late August, before the year is out, next summer, before the Vancouver Olympics,...

then when you went to see what he was doing you find him spray painting the word 'Explore Automobiles' on the side of the trains he'd been given and asserting that they have nothing to do with these 'trains' you speak of.

   
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2008,20:34   

Naw, Paul would promise you a train that would be on time, but the train would be late because

"Paul is a lying bastard."

Then, Paul would promise you that you could get dinner on the train, but there would be on dinner because

"Paul is a lying bastard."

Then Paul would tell you that your luggage would arrive with you but it wouldn't because

"Paul is a lying bastard."

Quote mining, the profession of a Lying Bastard.

  
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