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  Topic: Discussing "Explore Evolution", Have at it.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,08:19   

You don't even need a Nixplanatory Filter to see
that Paul is not gonna be BFF anymore with Jam...

BLASTED!  BIGGER THAN A DEMBSKI BLOW-UP!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,08:22   

Quote (BWE @ April 25 2008,08:00)
Quote
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Hi Paul. So, are you available to take a question or two?

he's still around!!!


Quote
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paul you are disappointing.  Bad Bad Tard

ETA  PWNZORGAsdhgwe8gh24.3kwersd,xvc924tbgwaes

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Paul Nelson



Posts: 43
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,08:53   

JAM wrote:

Quote
The answer is that since we know that the underlying molecular mechanisms are incredibly conserved, it's not a problem.


This assumes the point at issue.  To wit: We already know the mammal-like reptiles are related by descent with modification, via the natural selection of randomly-arising variation (or an array of unknown evolutionary mechanisms, if selection does not suffice).  Therefore their size differences are easy to explain.

What independent evidence do you have for the molecular mechanisms (regulating body size) at work in the extinct groups -- therapsids, etc. -- featured in the reptile-to-mammal sequence?

In what natural populations of canids, JAM, do we observe size differences on the scale seen in domesticated dogs?

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,08:58   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 25 2008,08:53)
JAM wrote:

 
Quote
The answer is that since we know that the underlying molecular mechanisms are incredibly conserved, it's not a problem.


This assumes the point at issue.  To wit: We already know the mammal-like reptiles are related by descent with modification, via the natural selection of randomly-arising variation (or an array of unknown evolutionary mechanisms, if selection does not suffice).  Therefore their size differences are easy to explain.

What independent evidence do you have for the molecular mechanisms (regulating body size) at work in the extinct groups -- therapsids, etc. -- featured in the reptile-to-mammal sequence?

In what natural populations of canids, JAM, do we observe size differences on the scale seen in domesticated dogs?

Forgive me paul but I am a novice at this. Isn't something that has been artificially selected like dogs actually showing the opposite thing?

I mean, humans selected the ones they wanted (selection regardless what kind) and they ended up with chihuawas and mastifs. Nature could only really make them efficient hunters since that is what is selected for but did make foxes and timberwolves.

That's like saying we don't see anything like domesticated corn varieties in the wild. right? Or am I way off?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,12:55   

Quote
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Edited by Lou FCD on April 25 2008,13:56

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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raguel



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Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,13:17   

So from my PoV:

According to ToE, species evolve and have a common ancestor (or if you prefer, common ancestors). Evidence for this includes the evolution of the mammalian ear. There are, to my knowledge, two forms of evidence:

1. fossil record

2. homologies in embryos of extant species (reptiles and mammals)


IDists response to these are:

1. size matters (but they won't say why)

2. LOLHaeckel!!!1one!eleven!


Did I miss anything?

  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,14:46   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 25 2008,08:53)
JAM wrote:
     
Quote
The answer is that since we know that the underlying molecular mechanisms are incredibly conserved, it's not a problem.

This assumes the point at issue.
   
Completely false. The fundamental molecular mechanisms are the same (i.e., conserved) whether these animals were designed or whether they evolved from a common ancestor. Era uma indicação simples do fato, Paulo.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten the insipid ID claim that the conservation observed (which is a set of strict mathematical relationships, not mere similarity) is the result of a common designer.

  
JAM



Posts: 503
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2008,15:03   

Quote (Paul Nelson @ April 25 2008,08:53)
What independent evidence do you have for the molecular mechanisms (regulating body size) at work in the extinct groups -- therapsids, etc. -- featured in the reptile-to-mammal sequence?

The fact that they are present in extant reptiles and mammals, of course. What evidence do you have that the Designer did things differently in the extinct groups? Or are you hypothesizing that there was a different Designer for the extinct groups?
 
Quote
In what natural populations of canids, JAM, do we observe size differences on the scale seen in domesticated dogs?

I'm challenging YOUR BOOK'S claim that not showing differences in size was deceptive, remember?
 
Quote
Some textbooks alter the scale of pictures showing the order of appearance of group such as the mammal-like reptiles. This makes the features appear closer in size than they really are, and creates the impression of a close genealogical relationship, and an easy transition between different types of animals.


Where's YOUR evidence? The evidentiary burden is yours, not mine.

How can you be a Christian if you are so fundamentally dishonest, Paul?

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1001
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2008,00:38   

I used to think creationists were lazy, you know, too lazy to do research on their own.  All they do is criticize the work done by industrious scientists.

However, having seen bits and pieces of Evolution Expelled, I have realized the error of my ways.

Actually, it takes more creativity and more energy to Quote Mine than it takes to simply present and interpret data.

How could I have not seen that before?

So, really, if Paul Nelson is truly interested in strengthening EE with our help then he could just give us a list of quotes, as quote mined by him, and we will critique those.  I mean, the last thing Nelson wants is for EE to be panned by reviewers and I think we can help him out in that arena.

Plus, Paul, it would reduce your Errata volumes from four to maybe two.

  
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2008,13:54   

It's a shame Paul doesn't hang out and defend himself more. I'm sure he's busy doing ID experiments.


*mmmmmppphhhtttt*

   
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2008,14:31   

I kid, I kid. Paul is somewhere right now doing ID Science. For the uninitiated, ID Science looks at important questions, such as "How many plane tickets and comped meals can I get from these rubes?"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2008,15:52   

Paul, Should you wander by, do you think that the review copy of EE that you promised has been mailed?  

Thanks

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2008,15:57   

Quote (snscience @ April 09 2008,19:17)
Quote
Would it be possible to put together a bibliography of the HS textbooks you checked?  It might come in very handy when creationists parrot DI nonsense.


Will do. It might be a few days before I can get to it.

Tony

Howdy Tony,

I don't want to be a nag, but did you find any time for that bibliography?

The Discovery Institute's Jon Wells is sure that there are lots of books with all sorts of evil lies about Haeckel, moths, and what not.  Casey said so too.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1001
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2008,16:21   

Haeckel, Haeckel!  It's always about friggin' Haeckel!

What about his twin brother Jaeckel?

  
hooligans



Posts: 114
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 29 2008,15:19   

Mr. Nelson,

I am still curious about how well the EE textbook was recieved at Curtis Highschool in Tacoma. Did Doug Cowan give you favorable reviews and feedback for the next edition? He endorsed your book early on, but now that the school year is almost over, and given the huge quantity of errors in the 1st edition, will he be given a new set of texts?

Furthermore, I thought the whole point of the debate page on the EE website was to offer a forum to debate the ideas outlined in the text. Why is it that no students are using the forum to debate the topics outlined in the text? I would at least expect some homeschool groups to be using it.

Could you also get back to me about hte flowering plants?

Thanks,

Mike

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2008,08:19   

Quote
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I'm going for the double hat trick.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2008,08:22   

beat me to it.

Hi Paul, I read some of your book. Do you have a few minutes?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
afarensis



Posts: 1002
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 04 2008,22:54   

Paul, I wonder if you could explain to us why it is you object to the way the reptile/mammal transition is portrayed, yet it seems to be acceptable for ID types to use highly misleading pictures of bacterial flagella? Or, to phrase it differently, if you object to scientist using anything remotely resembling Haeckel’s drawings, why don't you object to the use of doctored drawings of the bacterial flagella - such as those that appear on pages 116 and 117 of your book? I eagerly await your response.

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2008,15:29   

Paul, as I said on a different thread

 
Quote
Speaking of that, it's hard to wrap one's mind around how intellectually bankrupt Intelligent Design has been, but here's one metric. Since the Kitzmiller decision 2.5 years ago, the YEC fake scientific journal Journal of Creation has published 7 issues, while the ID fake scientific journal PCID has published 0.


how humiliating does the failure have to get, before you guys give it up and go back to calling yourselves creationists? At least then you can pretend to do research for your little pretend journal. With ID you can't even do that! How much longer are you guys going to stink up the joint before you regain either some integrity or some shame?

Edited by stevestory on May 05 2008,16:34

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 05 2008,16:49   

May 5, 2008.

The postman just laughed at me when I told him that Paul had promised to mail me a review copy of EE.  He did! He Did!

Tomorrow will be the 2 month mark.  Maybe it will come.

Edited by Dr.GH on May 05 2008,14:54

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2777
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2008,09:11   

Quote (Dr.GH @ May 05 2008,16:49)
May 5, 2008.

The postman just laughed at me when I told him that Paul had promised to mail me a review copy of EE.  He did! He Did!

Tomorrow will be the 2 month mark.  Maybe it will come.

Maybe Paul read your request during his latest comment-free drive-by.  
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   May 06 2008,08:43

Or maybe he's waiting for that second printing, so that you can see all the corrections he made, based on our comments here.

Or maybe he's a dishonest creationist...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2008,12:48   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ May 06 2008,09:11)
Or maybe he's a dishonest creationist...

I believer the answer your looking for is "TRUE".

See this post at Ed Brayton's blog:

"To give you a hint - Troy Britain went to a Q & A session about Expelled that included prominent ID advocate Paul Nelson and wrote about it. He recounts the story of how, in 2006, he was at another event where he caught Nelson utterly distorting Keith Miller's position on a subject in a highly dishonest manner. Since he did not have a blog at the time, he passed on the transcript of what was said to me and I wrote about it here. That resulted in five different posts and it included Nelson leaving several comments attempting to defend himself and, frankly, not faring very well. The facts were fairly easy to sort out. We had a transcript of what Nelson said Miller said, we had the email from Miller that he was basing that on, and the difference between them was quite obvious to anyone reading them.

Here are links to those posts:

Paul Nelson's Outrageous Lie
Paul Nelson's Continued Lie
The Full Nelson-Miller Exchange
Nelson's Larger Misrepresentation
Paul Nelson's Sleight of Hand"


http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....hp#more

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 06 2008,15:19   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ May 06 2008,07:11)
Quote (Dr.GH @ May 05 2008,16:49)
May 5, 2008.

The postman just laughed at me when I told him that Paul had promised to mail me a review copy of EE.  He did! He Did!

Tomorrow will be the 2 month mark.  Maybe it will come.

Maybe Paul read your request during his latest comment-free drive-by.    
Quote
Paul Nelson   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   May 06 2008,08:43

Or maybe he's waiting for that second printing, so that you can see all the corrections he made, based on our comments here.

Or maybe he's a dishonest creationist...

I am sure he will send it. It is probably already in the mail.  He wouldn't lie.

ETA: I just checked the mail- it didn't come yet.

Edited by Dr.GH on May 06 2008,13:20

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2008,14:52   

Finally I get mine.

Quote
From the Panda's Thumb  
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2008,15:49   

Congratulations on not being a Paul Nelson virgin any longer, Steve.

Was it good for you too?

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
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afarensis



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(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2008,19:47   

Um, Paul,
Your emailed response to my question was totally irrelevant. The pictures in your book and on Dembski's website are every bit as doctored and misleading as you claim Haeckel's pics are. I would say more so in fact, yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for ID proponents to use misleading photos. There seems to be some intellectual inconsistency there. By the by, since I am asking this in the forum courtesy requires that you answer in the forum rather than by email...

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Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
stevestory



Posts: 8841
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2008,20:31   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 07 2008,16:49)
Congratulations on not being a Paul Nelson virgin any longer, Steve.

Was it good for you too?

I wouldn't say anything related to Paul Nelson is good. He's a guy who could have made a contribution to something, but instead made a career of trying to convince people of beliefs so stupid I bet even he struggles to believe them.

EDIT: PS: it's not too late to do something productive with your life, Paul.

Edited by stevestory on May 07 2008,21:33

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2008,11:15   

yeah it's kinda like beating off in the tree stand, you feel guilty about when the deer see you.  

paul you are a disgrace to Willie Nelson and Paul Williams.  Change your name to something more appropriate, like Pinocchio or Ted Bundy.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2008,14:36   

Paul Nelson sighted!

Quote
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"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: May 08 2008,16:26   

Dr. GH,

How's the mailbox lookin' today?

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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