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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2011,18:41   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 15 2011,08:46)
Quote
I don't think that there are any particular problems with music and Islam.


http://www.islam-qa.com/en....0........000

That site was the Islamic equivalent of saying that Pat Roberson speaks for all Christians.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2011,19:06   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Sep. 15 2011,18:41)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 15 2011,08:46)
Quote
I don't think that there are any particular problems with music and Islam.


http://www.islam-qa.com/en....0........000

That site was the Islamic equivalent of saying that Pat Roberson speaks for all Christians.

Perhaps if Pat had henchmen with weapons.

Perhaps more like the KKK enforcing segregation. Not perfect analogy, but my intention is to convey that militants use force, and also to suggest it will pass in time.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2011,20:49   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 15 2011,12:43)
   
Quote
It does seem somewhat unlikely that retroviral elements would be able to insert themselves literally hundreds of thousands of times into the germ cells without causing fatalistic damage to the host organism.


Fatalistic damage?  Is that when your sperm cells decide there's absolutely nothing they can do to increase their chances of finding a nice egg to hook up with?

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"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
Henry J



Posts: 4015
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2011,21:46   

Quote

Some ID proponents have argued that, in spite of this striking appearance, the structure of the germ-cell production system makes it extremely unlikely that the inserts were accomplished by viruses, and thus these hitherto-thought-to-be ERV sequences are not, in fact, viral in origin at all. This is an interesting argument. It does seem somewhat unlikely that retroviral elements would be able to insert themselves literally hundreds of thousands of times into the germ cells without causing fatalistic damage to the host organism.

Wonder if anybody thought to ask if anybody was actually saying that there were more than one or two of these viral inserts in any one germ cell?

Henry

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2011,22:07   

Quote (noncarborundum @ Sep. 15 2011,20:49)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 15 2011,12:43)
   
Quote
It does seem somewhat unlikely that retroviral elements would be able to insert themselves literally hundreds of thousands of times into the germ cells without causing fatalistic damage to the host organism.


Fatalistic damage?  Is that when your sperm cells decide there's absolutely nothing they can do to increase their chances of finding a nice egg to hook up with?

I think that's when the sperm hits circle-circle-R2-triangle-X and rips the heart out of Scorpion (or whoever he is fighting).  If done correctly, it can even occur with "Flawless Victory"!  Bonus!

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
sparc



Posts: 1676
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2011,10:03   

Is it over?



--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2011,10:08   

Dead. It's been doing that off and on for a week. This is just extended. Maybe they're rebooting.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1237
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2011,10:24   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 16 2011,10:08)
Dead. It's been doing that off and on for a week. This is just extended. Maybe they're rebooting.

I think reality has had enough toss from the UD crew.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2011,10:39   

I'm sure Gil can sort it out, Unless he was running a simulation.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2011,12:29   

I wonder what they will do now?

I'd bet on moving to a new blog, but can you imagine the cat fight over who's in control?  

Joe would just moderate everyone all the time... oh wait, they're used to that, but I bet they don't want Joe in control.

Karios would require that every post be 8000 words... feel free to repeat portions as needed.

Can you imagine all the coffee ads on O'Leary's?

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2011,13:09   

They're mucking about with software.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
JohnW



Posts: 2209
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2011,14:19   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 16 2011,11:09)
They're mucking about with software.

It's back.  They haven't been mucking about with learning anything.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
paragwinn



Posts: 376
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2011,22:12   

Barry Arrington receives a lethal dose of 'obfuscation', causing him to release the monster within:

Eric Holloway
Quote
Neither yourself nor KairoFocus have demonstrated that my arguments miss the point or are unsound. I plan to write out the arguments again as a UD article, and you can respond more in depth there if you wish. Otherwise, I’m afraid I’ll have to call BS on your challenge.

And here
Quote
If Mr. Arrington claims such usage of the term “supernatural” is not common parlance, then I’m really at a loss as to what he means by “supernatural.” Perhaps Mr. Arrington can give some examples of what he would consider “supernatural?”

Barry
Quote
Stop it Eric.

Does anyone else feel the cold shadow of the Banhammer? Isnt the 'Loudspeaker-in-the-Ceiling' supposed to appear first?

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,04:47   

I think they've behaved rather well considering the pounding they're taking. Judging from the absence of BA77, I think the regulars don't like the argument that ID doesn't require supernatural intervention.

Their new software mysteriously poofs random posts into random threads.

Mathematically random or pseudo-random? Only the Designer knows.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
didymos



Posts: 1811
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,05:39   

OK, Gordon has officially become an Internet Tough Guy:
Quote
Group think, intimidatory thought police in action, again in the halls of the academy; for the thought “crime” of daring to question the “consensus” in a student presentation.

Yes, a student presentation.

Notice, how having a student reduced to tears and shaking seemingly did not trigger any sense that they were going beyond any reasonable behaviour; a classic sign of thought police in self-righteous action, hoping to trigger fear and/or guilt as an emotional response on the part of one who has failed to toe the partyline, similar to the U Colorado case recently handled by Barry A.

I hope there were witnesses willing to speak.

We need to make some financial bloody-nose examples of a few intellectual bullies like this, to stop this sadistic –and I MEAN that term (“who di cap fit. let ‘im wear it . . . “, cf. senses 2 & 3) — grown up version of the school yard bully.

Bullies like that only respect superior force.

(And believe you me if you were to attack and intimidate one of my students in front of me like this — especially a young lady, and ignored warnings to back off, I would step in decisively. Bully-boy. And if you persist, you will get what you are asking for, jackbooted SS bully-boy. As in, student harassment with power/status abuse and obvious sexual intimidation overtones. Kiss your career goodbye. Bully Verbal rapist!)

See why dismissive rhetoric that pretends there is not a serious problem in science or science education, as can be seen above, have no impact on me?

I know too many cases in point of abusive behaviour, and I can tell the foul demonic stench of SS bully-boyism a mile off, upwind.

Ganging up on a GIRL to intimidate her for presenting a student presentation!

And, keeping at it till she is reduced to tears and shaking!

Frankly, you should be taken to the schoolyard wood-shed and thoroughly whupped, with a good old fashioned tamarind switch . . . one soaked in saltwater first.

Maybe, it has not got through your thick comfortable skulls that if you keep on doing that sort of thing, you are going to pick on the wrong girl one of these days and her bro or boyfriend or husband or dad or uncle or cousin is going to come for you and give you a very literal bloody nose.

Regardless of consequences.

Those are the matches you are playing with, academic bully-boys.

Lesson no 1 of half-decent broughtupcy: don’t pick on girls, or on someone who cannot hit back.


Bonus points for the paternalistic misogyny and another co-option of rape for rhetorical purposes.  Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....CBZtpEk

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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,06:24   

I started out as an English major (big mistake).

On the first day of one class the professor (department chairman) started a discussion. I gave an opinion. He lit into me with a string of insults, not entirely unlike KF's diatribes.

The rest of the class was bug-eyed. For the rest of the term, classes consisted of the professor vainly trying to start discussions and the class mostly looking at their watches and waiting for the end of the period.

I suppose it's possible for this to happen in a Biology class, but I chalk it up to some people being clueless assholes.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
didymos



Posts: 1811
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,06:38   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 17 2011,04:24)
I suppose it's possible for this to happen in a Biology class, but I chalk it up to some people being clueless assholes.

Oh, sorry. Here's the UD piece that give the background for this diatribe:

How one student paid for questioning Darwinism

Said student is only identified by a first name, and her tale is related by the not-Expelled Caroline Crocker, apparently in her new book about her persecution at neo-Darwinist hands.  And Crocker has a new "institute":

http://www.americaninstitutetechnologyscienceeducation.com/....ion....ion.com

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,09:28   

One flew over Denyse's nest"

http://news.discovery.com/human....16.html

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,09:46   

Quote
DrREC September 16, 2011 at 4:22 pm
“Why DrREC, so all you have to do to prove your point is say that Protein a evolved from protein b??? Why that is just special DrREC! Perhaps you could sooth my doubts and actually physically demonstrate the origination of a new protein from a old protein and establish your theory/religion as at least scientifically plausible???”

I’m sorry, I find this rant awfully incoherent, and I don’t understand why my previous references are insufficient to answer your query.

The first two demonstrate the generation of novel, functional proteins by mutation and recombination of previously non-coding regions. The last demonstrates the directed evolution of novel activities (taking activity/protein a and evolving it into activity/protein b, where b doesn’t exist in nature, by ‘Darwinian’ processes-mutation and recombination acted on by selection.
Quote

Reply
8.1
Joseph September 17, 2011 at 7:39 am
DrREC,

All you are doing is engaging in question-begging- Just how was it determined that gene duplication and recombination are ‘Darwinian’ processes?

Do you realize that ID is not anti-evolution? Or do you really think your ignorance refutes ID?


Linky

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1654
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,16:25   

Is uncommon descent down?  I can't bring it up.  It just loods and loads and then shows a blank screen.  If I try to follow a link from this blog, my iPad grunts and then resets.  

Is it just trying to protect me?

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.   Edward Feser

‘Anything is a “real possibility” in the mind of one seeking to deny the obvious.’ – William J Murray

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,16:57   

Your computer is looking after your welfare. It's up.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,18:38   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 17 2011,07:46)
Quote
DrREC September 16, 2011 at 4:22 pm
“Why DrREC, so all you have to do to prove your point is say that Protein a evolved from protein b??? Why that is just special DrREC! Perhaps you could sooth my doubts and actually physically demonstrate the origination of a new protein from a old protein and establish your theory/religion as at least scientifically plausible???”

I’m sorry, I find this rant awfully incoherent, and I don’t understand why my previous references are insufficient to answer your query.

The first two demonstrate the generation of novel, functional proteins by mutation and recombination of previously non-coding regions. The last demonstrates the directed evolution of novel activities (taking activity/protein a and evolving it into activity/protein b, where b doesn’t exist in nature, by ‘Darwinian’ processes-mutation and recombination acted on by selection.
Quote

Reply
8.1
Joseph September 17, 2011 at 7:39 am
DrREC,

All you are doing is engaging in question-begging- Just how was it determined that gene duplication and recombination are ‘Darwinian’ processes?

Do you realize that ID is not anti-evolution? Or do you really think your ignorance refutes ID?


Linky

The Bornatron 77 comes dangerously close to punctuational meltdown as that thread progresses. It might be time to upgrade to the 88 model, with PunctProtectTM technology.

The 77 starts out okay -- incoherent as always, but punctuationally benign:
Quote
First no neo-Darwinists seems be able to show me ANY beneficial mutations, in humans (or anything else for that matter), that will withstand scrutiny, (Lactase persistence, and Himilaya high altitude/low oxygen tolerance mutations, in humans, both fail scrutiny for functional information generation, much less can the mutations be claimed as purely random mutations and not, in fact, be claimed as ‘calculated’ mutations), Yet the evidence for detrimental mutations in humans is simply overwhelming:

Then the triple comma makes its first appearance:
Quote
But, of personal note, when considering the multiple overlapping layers of coding in the genome,,,

The triple comma metastasizes and starts showing up in the middle of clauses:
Quote
Their work,,, shows that the genetic code — used by organisms as diverse as reef coral, termites, and humans — is nearly optimal for encoding signals of any length in parallel to sequences that code for proteins.

Then we see a triple comma trying to mate with a single comma:
Quote
But alas, as Dr. Hunter says, ,,, Religion drives science and it matters!

The problem spreads to other punctuation marks:
Quote
Why DrREC, so all you have to do to prove your point is say that Protein a evolved from protein b??? Why that is just special DrREC! Perhaps you could sooth my doubts and actually physically demonstrate the origination of a new protein from a old protein and establish your theory/religion as at least scientifically plausible???

Quote
DrREC, despite what you may think of my ‘hypocritical’ standard for science, the standard for empirical science is brutally unchanging in its threshold of satisfaction and requires nothing less than a actual empirical DEMONSTRATION for what you are claiming, and in such resolute firmness empirical science is the very antithesis of hypocrisy!!!.

Smoke pours out of the Bornatron 77 as it emits quadruple exclamation points and commas:
Quote
Well by golly Elizabeth, if bacteria have nothing to do with human evolution then I guess the entire Random Mutation and Natural Selection process itself has absolutely nothing to with Human Evolution either!!!! Too bad I know your playbook Elizabeth,,,, i.e. neo-Darwinian tactic #5, when faced with clear evidence that severely contradicts neo-Darwinism, deny that the clear evidence has anything whatsoever to do with evolution.

Somebody better break the glass case and grab the fire extinguisher.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don’t belong there and thoughts into my mind that don’t belong there. -- KF

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,18:55   

Quote
Natural Selection process itself has absolutely nothing to with Human Evolution either!!!! Too bad I know your playbook Elizabeth,,,,


Quote
as the observer approached the constant of the speed of light.,,,


Quote
see what the almighty power of neo-Darwinian evolution has DEMONSTRATED for this fool to behold:

And the drum-roll please,,,,,,,


You can almost see the bile pouring out of every orifice.

He does seem to have a problem with punctuational entropy and meltdown.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1001
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,19:13   

I understand that Crocker got the story from Michelle Bachmann who said that the mother of the student came up to her, crying, and told Bachmann that her daughter gave a presentation on "intelligent design" and now she's suffering from mental retardation and couldn't get into medical school.

Sad, really.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1237
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2011,22:30   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 17 2011,18:55)
Quote
Natural Selection process itself has absolutely nothing to with Human Evolution either!!!! Too bad I know your playbook Elizabeth,,,,


 
Quote
as the observer approached the constant of the speed of light.,,,


 
Quote
see what the almighty power of neo-Darwinian evolution has DEMONSTRATED for this fool to behold:

And the drum-roll please,,,,,,,


You can almost see the bile pouring out of every orifice.

He does seem to have a problem with punctuational entropy and meltdown.

Maybe bornagan77 will eventually reach punctuational equilibrium,,,

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
paragwinn



Posts: 376
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2011,00:01   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Sep. 17 2011,17:13)
I understand that Crocker got the story from Michelle Bachmann who said that the mother of the student came up to her, crying, and told Bachmann that her daughter gave a presentation on "intelligent design" and now she's suffering from mental retardation and couldn't get into medical school.

Sad, really.

I posted a comment at that post asking if the story could be substantiated, but that seems to have disappeared. I re-posted the question.

I dont understand how she couldnt get into medical school.
According to Dr. Egnor, those institutions dont teach TOE because they find it irrelevant, and most doctors super-secretly believe in ID.

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
The geological maps that realist use to make money are all surface maps. -forastero

  
sparc



Posts: 1676
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2011,01:32   

More from the Venema post:  
Quote

12 Prof. FX Gumby September 16, 2011 at 7:24 pm

DrREC, you might as well give up the argument. This fool will be satisfied with nothing less than one of his precious youtube videos of a beneficial protein-coding mutation arising in real time, complete with sound effects and laser light shows. On the other hand, he is perfectly willing to accept the slightest hand wave in the direction of divine intervention design.

I think the operative phrase is “selective hyperskepticism”?
Quote
14 DrREC September 16, 2011 at 9:47 pm

Prof. FX Gumby,

I wouldn’t be too harsh. I think bornagain77 summarizes the ID position well - no one here seems to ever correct him. His posts are revealing.
emphasis mine

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2011,07:59   

There seems to be no purifying selection capable of removing pseudocommas.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Amadan



Posts: 1240
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2011,08:38   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 18 2011,04:30)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 17 2011,18:55)
Quote
Natural Selection process itself has absolutely nothing to with Human Evolution either!!!! Too bad I know your playbook Elizabeth,,,,


 
Quote
as the observer approached the constant of the speed of light.,,,


 
Quote
see what the almighty power of neo-Darwinian evolution has DEMONSTRATED for this fool to behold:

And the drum-roll please,,,,,,,


You can almost see the bile pouring out of every orifice.

He does seem to have a problem with punctuational entropy and meltdown.

Maybe bornagan77 will eventually reach punctuational equilibrium,,,

... or vanish up his own colon

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 996
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2011,08:50   

If junk punctuation turns out to have function, does that prove ID?

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
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