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midwifetoad



Posts: 3551
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:18   

One could mention creationism in a historical overview.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:25   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 03 2010,10:18)
One could mention creationism in a historical overview.

My wife has a very good line when kids ask about creationism (which happens about once in 2 or 3 years - portland doesn't really have christians in the sense of Texas xians). She says, "Well, this is science class so we only learn science here. If you have questions about science, we can certainly investigate them."

It actually works.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,12:31   

CRAP!

Things might not be so rosy after all.

Creationist Bryan Russell, and Marsha Farney will go to a run-off election.

And George Clayton, in spite of opposing the "stranglehold that standardized testing has on education in Texas," might have been a stealth creationist all along.

Clayton: "So, here is my perspective. I have absolutely no objection to Creationism, Intelligent Design, and evolution being covered in public schools so long as they are covered simultaneously--in a parallel lesson. All must be discussed objectively, without bias or prejudice. Evolution is yet still a "theory." Intelligent Design is a philosophical explanation that acknowledges an intelligence greater than which no other exists or can be imagined and, of course, Creationism is faith in the Genesis accounts of the universe."
http://msteger.com/index.p....emid=55

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2777
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,15:19   

Texas is strange (I know, I know, that is a statement for which the only response is "Well, duh!")

The Republican primary ballot had several propositions that did not appear on the Dem ballot. One of them was this one  
Quote
Public Acknowledgment of God — The use of the word “God,” prayers, and the Ten Commandments should be allowed at public gatherings and public educational institutions, as well as permitted on government buildings and property.— YES or NO
Not surprisingly, in a Republican primary in a bat-shit insane state during a time when dissatisfaction with the status quo is rampant, this thing passed 95% YES to 5% NO.

What is amusing is that, as far as I can tell, these propositions have no legal clout.

More amusingly, here's an interesting Xristian perspective on the proposition. Best line - "Could there possibly be a worse use of God's name than tacking it onto the unholy works of the Texas Legislature? When those guys start throwing around the name of God, don't you instinctively check your wallet? Do you think God wants her name chiseled into the building where those folks meet?"

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,16:10   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 03 2010,15:19)
More amusingly, here's an interesting Xristian perspective on the proposition. Best line - "Could there possibly be a worse use of God's name than tacking it onto the unholy works of the Texas Legislature? When those guys start throwing around the name of God, don't you instinctively check your wallet? Do you think God wants her name chiseled into the building where those folks meet?"

Channeling DaveScot:

NOW LISTEN UP CUZ I'M TALKING HERE:
That there must not be a TrueTexanChristian ™but one of them Stealth Christians, cuz in TX God ain't no damn feminazi.  God hates women, it says so in The Holy Bible.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,20:33   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 03 2010,03:00)
Well, you can take away hope because Don McElroy has lost the Republican primary to represent District 9 on the State Board of Education.

It's about time District 9 had decent representation.


  
Patrickarbuthnot



Posts: 21
Joined: Feb. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,23:42   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 03 2010,06:39)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 03 2010,05:00)
Quote (Texas Teach @ Mar. 01 2010,21:34)
To illustrate what we're up against:

A student asked me today if you could fly high enough into the sky to reach heaven.  The student was 16.  And pregnant.

On the plus side, some of the other students jumped in to explain to her that, you know, space is up there.  We send people there occasionally.

I'm not sure whether to take away hope or despair from this.

Well, you can take away hope because Don McElroy has lost the Republican primary to represent District 9 on the State Board of Education.

Cool! I put that on my blog.

When we look under a microscope the modern public education it appears it has been weighed in many scales and found wanting. What is your take on education Wesley Elsberry, I would like to know?

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Thomas Edison said: “The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest her or his patients in the care of the human frame, in a proper diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease.”

  
Patrickarbuthnot



Posts: 21
Joined: Feb. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2010,23:44   

Quote (bfish @ Mar. 03 2010,20:33)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 03 2010,03:00)
Well, you can take away hope because Don McElroy has lost the Republican primary to represent District 9 on the State Board of Education.

It's about time District 9 had decent representation.


I am sorry I am a census card carrying American Indian by my father's blood and white by my mother . I could careless about either party.

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Thomas Edison said: “The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest her or his patients in the care of the human frame, in a proper diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease.”

  
Amadan



Posts: 1240
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2010,04:45   

Education in Texas seems a bit better off this morning as the Divine Dentist Macleroy has incurred the selfish ingratutude of the voters.

But he can console himself with the the NCSE's UpChucky Award, which he so richly deserved.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2010,05:26   

So, throw out the textbooks and burn the standardized tests. Let the teachers teach... what, exactly? How, precisely? You may have noticed that the U.S. already has a bit of a problem with teachers and school boards that teach whatever the hell they like. That's not working out so well for the students involved.

I'm not down with this rather open-ended plan, frankly. When teachers and school boards already sneak in whatever addle-brained nonsense tickles their religious perineum, this plan thus far only seems to eliminate the "sneak" part.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
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Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2010,08:57   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 03 2010,17:16)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 03 2010,09:10)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 03 2010,10:38)
Incumbent Geraldine “Tincy” Miller, lost to George Clayton. Both call themselves conservatives, but Miller was not a safe vote for the radical religious right.  Clayton  is the Academic Coordinator for North Dallas High School. He seems to be similar to Miller- more pro-teacher in fact.

I dunno about Clayton. According to this article, Clayton said  
Quote
"It's seems to me you can't be taught the one [evolution] without the other [creationism]. It's an impossibility to talk about evolution without mentioning creationism."

OH NOOES

Shit!

Let joy be reconfined!

Louis

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Bye.

  
Patrickarbuthnot



Posts: 21
Joined: Feb. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2010,01:38   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Mar. 04 2010,05:26)
So, throw out the textbooks and burn the standardized tests. Let the teachers teach... what, exactly? How, precisely? You may have noticed that the U.S. already has a bit of a problem with teachers and school boards that teach whatever the hell they like. That's not working out so well for the students involved.

I'm not down with this rather open-ended plan, frankly. When teachers and school boards already sneak in whatever addle-brained nonsense tickles their religious perineum, this plan thus far only seems to eliminate the "sneak" part.

I don't know why we all worry about this. With every country arming itself with nukes it is just a matter of time before some wacko has a bad day and tries to end it all.

--------------
Thomas Edison said: “The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest her or his patients in the care of the human frame, in a proper diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease.”

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2010,19:28   

Quote (Patrickarbuthnot @ Mar. 09 2010,01:38)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Mar. 04 2010,05:26)
So, throw out the textbooks and burn the standardized tests. Let the teachers teach... what, exactly? How, precisely? You may have noticed that the U.S. already has a bit of a problem with teachers and school boards that teach whatever the hell they like. That's not working out so well for the students involved.

I'm not down with this rather open-ended plan, frankly. When teachers and school boards already sneak in whatever addle-brained nonsense tickles their religious perineum, this plan thus far only seems to eliminate the "sneak" part.

I don't know why we all worry about this. With every country arming itself with nukes it is just a matter of time before some wacko has a bad day and tries to end it all.

I can't do much about the state of nuke-totin' states around the world.

But I can do (and I have done) things to help make sure that the extent of the old, tired, religious antievolution ensemble of arguments that makes it into the public school science curriculum is minimized. Plus, I'd feel silly if I stood aside and let the religious antievolutionists take over and large-scale nuclear exchange did not happen.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2777
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2010,07:20   

I'm not sure which thread this belongs in, but this one seems relevant.

Today a set of national standards for K-12 education will be unveiled. These standards set out core expectations for English and math education for all 50 states.

Why only English and math? Most of the problems with religious meddling are with the science standards. Is there not enough gumption at the national level to take on these bozos? If so, that's really depressing.

And, predictably, the oil emirates of Texas and Alaska are the only states that have not expressed support for this national standardization, even for the seemingly non-controversial subjects like English and math. Is this "socialism"?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2010,07:54   

Quote (Patrickarbuthnot @ Mar. 09 2010,06:38)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Mar. 04 2010,05:26)
So, throw out the textbooks and burn the standardized tests. Let the teachers teach... what, exactly? How, precisely? You may have noticed that the U.S. already has a bit of a problem with teachers and school boards that teach whatever the hell they like. That's not working out so well for the students involved.

I'm not down with this rather open-ended plan, frankly. When teachers and school boards already sneak in whatever addle-brained nonsense tickles their religious perineum, this plan thus far only seems to eliminate the "sneak" part.

I don't know why we all worry about this. With every country arming itself with nukes it is just a matter of time before some wacko has a bad day and tries to end it all.

LOL Fatalism.

Your parochial concerns about nuclear war are irrelevant. Eventually the sun will expand and then burn out. Best not even get out of bed, eh?

Louis

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Bye.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1001
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2010,08:15   

And, please, don't have kids!

You wouldn't want to raise them in this kind of world.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2010,11:10   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 10 2010,13:15)
And, please, don't have kids!

You wouldn't want to raise them in this kind of world.

Precisely.

In fact I don't think I went far enough before. Since the universe is likely to either end in heat death, or a big crunch or some other calamity in a few trifling billions of years, I think we might as well slit our throats now.

Kids? Don't make me laugh. Do them a favour and smother them in their sleep.

We're all doomed! Dooooooomed! DOOOOOOOOMMMMED!

Louis

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Bye.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1950
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2010,12:26   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 10 2010,05:20)
Why only English and math? Most of the problems with religious meddling are with the science standards. Is there not enough gumption at the national level to take on these bozos? If so, that's really depressing.

I was recently appointed to the "National Assesment of Educational Progress: Science Achievment Level Setting Study." There were two groups, a pilot study, and a final. I was on the pilot study. This was supposed to be a very high honor.

I walked out when the entire operation was obviously a set up to rubber-stamp "staff recommendations." Remember that textbook publishers are also the "Standardized" test publishers. Schools and students will never be allowed to succeed because then they won't need new textbooks. This is a $10 billion a year scam. All they need to do is tweek the tests, and publish that "students are failing." And then promise scores will improve once you buy thier textbooks, and pay for their "teacher training" programs.

The procedures enforced at the NAEP effectively disallowed any discussion between members while "on task." We were in groups of five, and expected to rate several hundred questions and the associated answers in a very short amount of time. Staff wandered around announcing how much time had elapsed, and how many questions we should have "rated" in be "on task."

I was at a table with four others. Two were very very quick (high school science teachers), and they would direct us that "#34 is a 4, and 7; #35 is a 2 & 4;...." They were faster than I could find the question, and copy down their recommendation/demand. When one of their responses was so amazingly stupid that I protested that they made no sense, I learned they did not bother to read the questions, or the answers. They had found how staff cued the "right" answers in the "rubric" pages. And they were each just alternating with each other, doing odd or even numbered questions. They saw nothing wrong with this. At dinner I learned that they were not alone. This is how many school teachers are "helping" improve scores on standardized tests by teaching not content, but sharp test taking skills.

The chief statistician and I spoke briefly, and he admitted that they are going to use the "Nation's Report Card" to drive the acceptance of a federally required science curriculum.

Expect to read "American Students Fail Science!" in the headlines soon.

If I hadn't walked out, I would have been tossed out.

Edited by Dr.GH on Mar. 10 2010,10:28

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2010,14:43   

Quote
Plus, I'd feel silly if I stood aside and let the religious antievolutionists take over and large-scale nuclear exchange did not happen.


Sounds oddly like Pascal's wager ...

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2010,15:42   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 04 2010,03:16)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 03 2010,09:10)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 03 2010,10:38)
Incumbent Geraldine “Tincy” Miller, lost to George Clayton. Both call themselves conservatives, but Miller was not a safe vote for the radical religious right.  Clayton  is the Academic Coordinator for North Dallas High School. He seems to be similar to Miller- more pro-teacher in fact.

I dunno about Clayton. According to this article, Clayton said  
Quote
"It's seems to me you can't be taught the one [evolution] without the other [creationism]. It's an impossibility to talk about evolution without mentioning creationism."

OH NOOES

Shit!

The jury is still out on this as I heard one interpretation of his statement to mean that children should be taught about the culture war not that creationism is an alternative to evolution.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2777
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2010,20:38   

Aaargh!

It's like DaveTard cloned himself and all of the clones were elected to the TX SBOE...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
bjray



Posts: 13
Joined: Mar. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,01:43   

Why not teach several of the various theories? (Ie: Evolution, Creationism, ID, Theistic evolution) Evolution shouldn't be the only de-facto theory taught. I mean, it can't even convince the full gamut of the scientific community who think that stuff up. Why try and teach it as the only truth?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,02:44   

Quote (dhogaza @ Mar. 10 2010,14:43)
Quote
Plus, I'd feel silly if I stood aside and let the religious antievolutionists take over and large-scale nuclear exchange did not happen.


Sounds oddly like Pascal's wager ...

Except that I get the benefit of my action now, not later.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,02:52   

Quote (bjray @ Mar. 16 2010,01:43)
Why not teach several of the various theories? (Ie: Evolution, Creationism, ID, Theistic evolution) Evolution shouldn't be the only de-facto theory taught. I mean, it can't even convince the full gamut of the scientific community who think that stuff up. Why try and teach it as the only truth?

You seem to have mistaken a socio-political movement for science. It is a common failing of those within the religious antievolution movement to have difficulty distinguishing between unsupported propaganda and actual scientific content.

You also seem to have overlooked the fact that the theistic evolutionists want real science taught, not the propagation of antievolution ignorance.

Evolutionary science should be taught as science, which means that it is a part of the knowledge delivered via the scientific process, not "the only truth". It is the only set of explanations that has passed the review of the scientific community, which means it is also the only set of explanations that will be topical during a class on science.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 16 2010,03:52

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Cubist



Posts: 347
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,04:59   

Quote (bjray @ Mar. 16 2010,01:43)
Why not teach several of the various theories? (Ie: Evolution, Creationism, ID, Theistic evolution)
Creationism and ID should not be taught in science classes because neither Creationism nor ID is a scientific theory. If you disagree, please answer one or both of these questions:
What is the scientific theory of Creation, and how can we use the scientific method to test this theory?
What is the scientific theory of Intelligent Design, and how can we use the scientific method to test this theory?
Quote
Evolution shouldn't be the only de-facto theory taught. I mean, it can't even convince the full gamut of the scientific community who think that stuff up.
"the full gamut of the scientific community" includes scientists who have no expertise in the field of biology. Likewise, "the full gamut of the scientific community" includes scientists scientists who literally have a dogmatic religious commitment to the position that evolution is false. Why should the curriculum of any science class reflect the views of people who are ignorant, or dogmatically committed to one specific view, or both ignorant and dogmatically committed to one specific view?
Quote
Why try and teach it as the only truth?
I think science classes should teach science. If there only happens to be one scientific theory which covers a particular topic, well, them's the breaks; that one scientific theory is the one which should get taught. If you insist on teaching scientific alternatives to evolution, fine: We can include the "independent origins" theories of Periannan Senapathy and Christian Schwabe. Do you have any objections to teaching Senapathy and Schwabe in science classes, bjray?

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,06:45   

Quote (Patrickarbuthnot @ Mar. 09 2010,02:38)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Mar. 04 2010,05:26)
So, throw out the textbooks and burn the standardized tests. Let the teachers teach... what, exactly? How, precisely? You may have noticed that the U.S. already has a bit of a problem with teachers and school boards that teach whatever the hell they like. That's not working out so well for the students involved.

I'm not down with this rather open-ended plan, frankly. When teachers and school boards already sneak in whatever addle-brained nonsense tickles their religious perineum, this plan thus far only seems to eliminate the "sneak" part.

I don't know why we all worry about this. With every country arming itself with nukes it is just a matter of time before some wacko has a bad day and tries to end it all.

What Louis said, above.

Seriously, if this is your outlook on the situation, then why the hell bother sending kids to school in the first place? It's a lot of pain in the ass if we're all just going to be glow-in-the-dark dust tomorrow.

And further, why then do you care what or how the teachers teach?

What a singularly un-thought-out and internally inconsistent position you present!

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,06:47   

Quote (bjray @ Mar. 16 2010,02:43)
Why not teach several of the various theories? (Ie: Evolution, Creationism, ID, Theistic evolution) Evolution shouldn't be the only de-facto theory taught. I mean, it can't even convince the full gamut of the scientific community who think that stuff up. Why try and teach it as the only truth?

Allow me to direct you here.

ETA Nevermind, I see you've found your way. Funny how easy you were to identify, isn't it? Why do you suppose that is?

Edited by Lou FCD on Mar. 16 2010,07:51

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,10:09   

Good gravy! Apparently there's the possibility that Texas could in fact get some folks' New Reality into the curricula.  Yahoo! article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts1253.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2010,08:30   

Howdy folks,


Long time since I've posted here.  I dropped out to study more in my field (CCIE Routing and Switching) and while this is fascinating and informative, it really doesn't help me configure Route Reflectors in a BGP Confederation.

(For those of you whose eyes rolled, now you know how I feel when I read a few of the posts here.  Not that it's bad, I just have tons of stuff to look up.)

In any case, I was just settling into work when I heard several other engineers discussing evolution.  I listened in and crap, the amount of idiocy from people I thought were intelligent discussing the following:

How "Evolution is just a Theory and has no proof".

By definition, "All mutations are bad".

The amount of miracles covered up by the liberal media, like the church that was on fire but there was no damage to it and the firemen who were called to put out the fire "fell to their knees as the power of god was so strong".

Then the oldies but goodies came out:

The "odds" of DNA arriving "spontaneously".

How curiosity and fear cancel each other out so evolution can't explain our curiosity.  One of the "facts" was, "Remember, curiosity killed the cat!"

Why didn't monkeys evolve like us after all, we had pretty much the same pressures?

That Intelligent Design explains all of that.

This was from many people who I say are otherwise bright and intelligent.

What can be done?

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Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2777
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2010,08:34   

Quote (FrankH @ Mar. 19 2010,08:30)
What can be done?

Ship them all to Texas and encourage the state to secede.



--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
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