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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Amadan



Posts: 1247
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,17:15   

This one reminds me of everyone's favourite "journalist":



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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2011,02:57   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 07 2011,08:08)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 06 2011,17:57)
There are many caveats; academic performance, job performance and income are all complexly and multiply determined. IQ has a relationship with each of them, stronger in some instances than in others.

From this DeNudes concludes:
   
Quote
within a normal range - there is no systematic relationship between IQ and achievement.

*Facepalm*

DeNews' proof that IQ does not correlate to achievement:  Look at all the blogs I have achieved!

She also could have cited the example of one-time PCID contributor Christopher Langan. (Hi Genie!)

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-Tom Ames

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2011,03:50   

Thomas Cudworth criticises Venema/BioLogos:
 
Quote
Dennis Venema, the “heavy hitter” of Biologos when it comes to evolutionary theory — hands up, professors of evolutionary biology at Chicago, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, etc., if you have heard of Dennis Venema — has recently issued some remarks about ID in an interview.
[a lot of whining]
The moneybags who fund Biologos would be wiser to start a whole new theology/science project, one run by people who are much more cognizant of the very latest developments in biological science and the very latest developments in post-graduate-level theology. And, above all, one run by people who honor the basic academic principle that one should make sure one understands a theoretical position before one criticizes it.

Requirement to criticise ID: Being a professor of evolutionary biology at a top notch university who understands the "theoretical position" of ID, i.e. pretends that there is one.

Requirement to criticise evolutionary theory: Being able to type. Or, if that's too difficult, copy & paste.

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2011,11:49   

CY:
 
Quote
I attended a Christian College (now University) that had a tendency to seek out professors who had some secular academic credentials. They ended up in one instance courting Tony Campolo in Sociology from the UofP. No friend of Darwin, though. So there is a way. Of course, I don’t really know if there aren’t any open Darwinists there, but perhaps some secret Darwinists.

I wouldn’t be surprised if practically every Christian college has it’s secret Darwinist, just as practically every secular college has it’s open Christian.

What’s really alarming though is the open Darwinist in a decidedly Evangelical college. This is the sort of practice that eventually causes a college to abandon it’s Christian roots.
Then the foundation is lost and it becomes another secular college like all the others that have gone before: Princeton (Presbyterian), Yale (Congregationalist), Dartmouth (Puritan), to name a few. Well funded colleges to be sure, but not exactly Christian anymore. Some discernment is in order.

You can't make stuff like that up.

"Secular academic credentials" in a prof, outrageous!

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2011,12:21   

Quote
I wouldn’t be surprised if practically every Christian college has it’s secret Darwinist, just as practically every secular college has it’s open Christian.


Its a mystery.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
JohnW



Posts: 2239
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2011,13:22   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 08 2011,10:21)
Quote
I wouldn’t be surprised if practically every Christian college has it’s secret Darwinist, just as practically every secular college has it’s open Christian.


Its a mystery.

I can't wait to see Expelled II: Bigger, Longer and Uncut.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1238
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2011,14:46   

News!

Quote
“Jumping genes” a mechanism of evolution?
September 8, 2011 Posted by News under Evolution, Genetics, News
No Comments

Definitely an idea worth pursuing, but what they must now demonstrate is permanent, functional improvements resulting from this process.


Clue for the clueless:  Look up Barbara McClintock.  It was pursued long ago, with fabulous results.  This is news to DeNews.

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4242
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2011,18:32   

Lewontin!

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Henry J



Posts: 4069
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2011,22:24   

Quote
why-the-mathematical-beauty-we-find-in-the-cosmos

Beauty is in the reaction of the one observing it, it isn't intrinsic to the object being observed.

Or am I being picky?

Henry

  
sparc



Posts: 1698
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,01:43   

Quote
3.1
GilDodgen
September 9, 2011 at 9:53 pm
Quote
Is musical ability heritable? I’ve read that it does tend to run in families.


The mixing and matching of existing genetic information (which obviously occurs) is not what Darwinism attempts to explain. It attempts to explain the origin of completely novel, never-before-seen information.

As far as musical ability is concerned, I believe I got some of that, but it definitely doesn’t run in the family. It appears to have appeared out of nowhere in my family lineage.

The obvious question Gildo doesn't dare to ask? Why did he obviously not inherrit the intellectual capacity that run in the family? It appears to have vanished into nowhere.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,04:22   

Nick Matzke sounds just a tiny bit exasperated.
 
Quote
Even under an ID hypothesis, plant carnivory ought to have some function, right? It’s not exactly revolutionary to suggest that the function of *carnivory*, i.e. *eating things*, is probably to *get nutrients*. Gimme a freakin’ break here!

The only reason you guys are objecting to these basic points is that you just hate Darwin and somehow have got it in your head that the association between carnivorous plants and low-nutrient situations is some kind of evolutionary/Darwinist conspiracy. But that just ain’t so.

If you follow the discussion, that's exactly what's going on. In essence, they're arguing that there's no benefit for the plant in being carnivorous.  But no one asks why, if that were true, a supposedly intelligent designer would've made them carnivorous. Probably because god the designer works in mysterious ways.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Patrick



Posts: 549
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,08:37   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 09 2011,19:32)
[URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-the-mathematical-beauty-we-find-in-the-cosmos-is-an-objective-fact-which-points-to-a-d

esigner/comment-page-1/#comment-398797]Lewontin[/URL]!

If he weren't so sanctimonious, condescending, and willfully ignorant, one could almost feel some sympathy for kairosfocus.  He's so blinded by Leweontin's statement that "Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." that he is actually incapable of understanding that the following sentences explain exactly why this is the case:  "The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen."

When you understand the scientific method, kairosfocus, you will be able to understand Lewontin.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,09:36   

Quote
When you understand the scientific method, kairosfocus, you will be able to understand Lewontin.


That's about as likely as KF ever coming to grip with the concept that quote mining is a form of lying.

ETA:

I wonder if Lewontin has been added to the quote mine project, and I wonder how UD would fare in an update of the quote mine sweepstakes.

http://blog.darwincentral.org/2006....of-dawn

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,10:16   

Quote
Probably because god the designer works in mysterious ways.


Yes, Gordon E Mullings of Montserrat is thankful that He made the world safe for the cowardly leeches that inhabit UD! :)

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,10:47   

Quote (JLT @ Sep. 10 2011,04:22)
Nick Matzke sounds just a tiny bit exasperated.
 
Quote
Even under an ID hypothesis, plant carnivory ought to have some function, right? It’s not exactly revolutionary to suggest that the function of *carnivory*, i.e. *eating things*, is probably to *get nutrients*. Gimme a freakin’ break here!

The only reason you guys are objecting to these basic points is that you just hate Darwin and somehow have got it in your head that the association between carnivorous plants and low-nutrient situations is some kind of evolutionary/Darwinist conspiracy. But that just ain’t so.

If you follow the discussion, that's exactly what's going on. In essence, they're arguing that there's no benefit for the plant in being carnivorous.  But no one asks why, if that were true, a supposedly intelligent designer would've made them carnivorous. Probably because god the designer works in mysterious ways.

If The Fall could make those nice plant-eating T-rexes turn into carnivorous beasts, then surely the plants had to join them.

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,11:05   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 10 2011,09:36)
Quote
When you understand the scientific method, kairosfocus, you will be able to understand Lewontin.


That's about as likely as KF ever coming to grip with the concept that quote mining is a form of lying.

ETA:

I wonder if Lewontin has been added to the quote mine project, and I wonder how UD would fare in an update of the quote mine sweepstakes.

http://blog.darwincentral.org/2006.......of-dawn

I don't suppose anybody has those quotes as a CSV/XML document or similar?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,11:39   

I have the whole thing in an Access database, including the program I used to crawl the internet and gather the statistics.

But the quotes are in a table that could be exported.

Edit:

What I actually have is snippets from the quote mine project. Just enough of the original quote to make a reliable Google search.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,12:30   

Great! Will PM you.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
sparc



Posts: 1698
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,22:40   

Hey Denyse, did you ever wonder why pandasthumb.org has been named after the pandas's thumb?
Somebody may suggest some reading to her that even on her computer is only one click away: Michel Laurin, Marc Girondot and Armand de Ricqlès (2000): Early tetrapod evolution.

ETA: links corrected

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,23:26   

Quote (sparc @ Sep. 11 2011,04:40)
Hey Denyse, did you ever wonder why pandasthumb.org has been named after the pandas's thumb?
Somebody may suggest some reading to her that even on her computer is only one click away: Michel Laurin, Marc Girondot and Armand de Ricqlès (2000): Early tetrapod evolution.

ETA: links corrected

DO'L:
Quote
The five-fingered limb is much easier to subtract from than add to. That’s the fundamental problem with Darwinian evolution. There is an original law, probably based on design.


Or maybe there's common descent.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2011,23:55   

Oh, goody, I was waiting for this.
Gods iPod
 
Quote
ID proponents SHOULD be “truthers”, because both have come to their conclusions from following the evidence, not popular, or an expert’s, opinion.

Please stop the perforative use of the term “conspiracy theorist”. Every Law Enforcement Officer is a conspiracy theorist, and they arrest people for conspiracy often.

Some truthers might be a bit insane, but the one’s leading the movement are mostly scientists. www.ae911truth.org

Come on, UD, only one truther? There must be more!

BTW, isn't it great that he tries to make the truthers seem reasonable by claiming that they're all scientists?
Paragwinn:
 
Quote
Actually, ae911truth.org is led by architects and engineers, not scientists.

I LOL'ed.

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Patrick



Posts: 549
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,10:44   

DrBot responds to Joseph and shows UD what reality looks like:
Quote
Quote
According to the current theory of evolution ALL genetic changes are accidents/ mistakes/ errors.

I’m not aware of anything in evolutionary theory that says that the goal of reproduction is an exact copy. What is required for evolution to happen is actually reproduction with variance, so genetic changes serve a purpose – i.e. they are not accidents, mistakes or errors in the sense that they are unintended – but they are all random with respect to fitness.

There is an important difference between randomly generated, but necessary, variety and just unwanted errors.

Evolution depends on variety so by definition variety in its self is not an error, or to put it another way – you don’t understand evolutionary theory.

That's gonna leave a mark.

(Emphasis mine.)

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,11:45   

Joseph responds by channeling a 6 year old:

Quote
So to put it another way you don’t understand evolutionary theory and you do not understand ID.


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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,12:00   

Perhaps Joe can point to a specific example of a genomic change that was not the result of a stochastic process.

An example not from genetic engineering by humans.

I'm particularly interested in how a designer knows in advance the results of a large change.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,13:11   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 11 2011,12:00)
Perhaps Joe can point to a specific example of a genomic change that was not the result of a stochastic process.

He already did.







On his blog.







You are just too stupid to understand.







Assface.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,14:16   

Well, UD has managed to establish one truth. I they malign and libel a major player, they will get more than two posts in response.

Watch out when they figure this out.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
paragwinn



Posts: 388
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,14:21   

Speaking of gaming,, StephenB's "Jump To Conclusions" armor is pierced by Elizabeth's "Perform Real Investigative Work" battle-axe in UDville:

StephenB
Quote
So you agree, in principle, that one can legitimately draw an inference to design by ruling out natural causes?

Elizabeth
Quote
No, I think you can legitimately infer design by testing design hypotheses.


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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
paragwinn



Posts: 388
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,14:56   

bornagain77 has identified a tool in the Darwinist Conspiracy To Supress Evidence Regarding The Cambrian Explosion: Fossil Collectors!
ba77  
Quote
David, perhaps it was a case of ‘cognitive dissonance’ on [Charles Doolittle] Walcott’s part, but none-the-less, despite the level to which Walcott suppressed that which was so surprising to him that it caused him to collect 60,000 specimens, it is certainly a clear example of a inherent materialistic bias for which we have all paid a severe price in the setting back science for several decades

David W. Gibson  
Quote
Not at all. Walcott was a collector. He squirreled away FAR more specimens than that; he collected fossils of any and all kinds from everywhere he went. He was not ‘cognitively dissonent’, any more than any other collector. He did not “suppress” anything, he simply collected it. Collectors do that.

Evidently, museum drawers are the Vanishing Cabinets of Conspiratorial Magic.

bracketted name clarification mine.

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3560
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,15:23   

Stupid man should have shredded the evidence. Conspirators never learn.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
sparc



Posts: 1698
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2011,21:59   

If Joseph would only explore the sites he links to he would know that nature EDUCATION's Scitable does not support his views at all.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
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