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  Topic: The Discovery Institute Thread, Everyone's Favorite Propaganda Mill< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2010,23:35   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Nov. 16 2010,13:03)
I still say there's a plant in the DI. Someone is the ultimate poe by getting a job there and convincing them that these ideas are good ones.

"Hey, this looks like a discrimination case, we should sue."

I say Luskin, nobody could be that dumb

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,10:33   

Quote (fnxtr @ Nov. 16 2010,00:13)
I think Mike Elzinga described them best as bumbling around "like drunken clowns".

That's from letting the gin out of the bottle.

--------------
I知 referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I知 not an evolutionist, I知 a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,10:51   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Nov. 15 2010,20:15)
The Cross Complaint lays it out in wonderful detail. So refreshing to see plain English instead of DI weaselish.

Joe Peterson of the AFA, the organization that contracted the CSC Foundation to show the film, wrote in an email:

Quote
Whomever at (sic) wrote the copy on the Discovery Institutes press releases should have his head examined ... I thought the problem was buried in the text of the documents ... NOT THE HEADLINES. Talk about waving a red flag in front of a bull. It seems like they were deliberately trying to screw this up!!!


Well, when you let the jinni out of the bottle, as Crowther put it, you tend to screw things up.

In the other legal documents available on the NCSE website is one that refers to dismissing the lawsuit because of "unclean hands." IANAL, but that appears to imply that the DI screwed the pooch ... in public!

My original reading of what Peterson wrote was that he was unaware of what the DI was planning to publish, which would have supported the contention that they were operating separately. However, on re-reading, I see that he is aware of what DI planned to say, just not the specifics of headline vs. text. This is pretty damning.

--------------
I知 referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I知 not an evolutionist, I知 a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
tsig



Posts: 320
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,12:16   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Nov. 15 2010,19:15)
The Cross Complaint lays it out in wonderful detail. So refreshing to see plain English instead of DI weaselish.

Joe Peterson of the AFA, the organization that contracted the CSC Foundation to show the film, wrote in an email:

 
Quote
Whomever at (sic) wrote the copy on the Discovery Institutes press releases should have his head examined ... I thought the problem was buried in the text of the documents ... NOT THE HEADLINES. Talk about waving a red flag in front of a bull. It seems like they were deliberately trying to screw this up!!!


Well, when you let the jinni out of the bottle, as Crowther put it, you tend to screw things up.

In the other legal documents available on the NCSE website is one that refers to dismissing the lawsuit because of "unclean hands." IANAL, but that appears to imply that the DI screwed the pooch ... in public!

Looks like they did a demski.

Pulling defeat from the jaws of victory.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,12:38   

Maybe the right will become disenchanted with the DI. It is obviously they're looking to fabricate something that isn't.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3281
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,12:39   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 16 2010,12:38)
Maybe the right will become disenchanted with the DI. It is obviously they're looking to fabricate something that isn't.

And 'the right' isn't?

These are the guys that think we're a Southern Baptist nation and Joe McCarthy was a great patriot.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 1954
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,12:59   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 16 2010,10:38)
Maybe the right will become disenchanted with the DI. It is obviously they're looking to fabricate something that isn't.

The rightists don't mind James O'Keefe, or using thugs. Why would they mind the Discotutes.


PS: The cross complaint was a really fun read. The AFA, and DI are screwed!

Edited by Dr.GH on Nov. 16 2010,11:16

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
darvolution proponentsist



Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,16:44   

Quote (tsig @ Nov. 16 2010,12:16)
Looks like they did a demski.

Pulling defeat from the jaws of victory.


::: Select\Copy :::

::: Open FavQuote.txt :::

::: Paste\Save\Yes :::

Snatched !

--------------
的f your worldview starts with a problematic origin story, everything else is going to be infected ~ William Dembski

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2010,16:56   

Quote (darvolution proponentsist @ Nov. 16 2010,16:44)
Quote (tsig @ Nov. 16 2010,12:16)
Looks like they did a demski.

Pulling defeat from the jaws of victory.


::: Select\Copy :::

::: Open FavQuote.txt :::

::: Paste\Save\Yes :::

Snatched !

I've seen that pic befoe ;-)

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4468
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2010,06:42   

A New Zealand IDC fellow traveler visited the DI headquarters in Seattle and blogged about it.

I left a comment that comes up with an "awaiting moderation" notice.

 
Quote

"Responding to the science" -- since IDC hasn't ponied up science yet, the best that can be done in the interim is to examine what arguments and conjectures they have made. I've been there and done that. Get your copy of "Why Intelligent Design Fails" for the library here: http://tinyurl.com/2bo2ebt

Is it only the other side whose members engage in uncivil rhetoric? Here's a link that should convince any reasonable observer that IDC advocates do dish it out, too: http://antievolution.org/invcomp

Does the existence of uncivil IDC rhetoric also lead to the conclusion that their arguments have run out of steam? If not, why not?


Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Nov. 18 2010,06:43

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JohnW



Posts: 2225
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2010,10:26   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 18 2010,04:42)
A New Zealand IDC fellow traveler visited the DI headquarters in Seattle and blogged about it.

I left a comment that comes up with an "awaiting moderation" notice.

Quote

"Responding to the science" -- since IDC hasn't ponied up science yet, the best that can be done in the interim is to examine what arguments and conjectures they have made. I've been there and done that. Get your copy of "Why Intelligent Design Fails" for the library here: http://tinyurl.com/2bo2ebt

Is it only the other side whose members engage in uncivil rhetoric? Here's a link that should convince any reasonable observer that IDC advocates do dish it out, too: http://antievolution.org/invcomp

Does the existence of uncivil IDC rhetoric also lead to the conclusion that their arguments have run out of steam? If not, why not?

They don't have time to do any science, Dr Elsberry:

Quote
They have also very kindly suggested that I return to the US next year to undergo some media training in a specialised workshop they run for proponents of intelligent design. This training has become more important as ID is becoming more visible to the public and the hostile liberal media and scientific community begin to spend more time and energy attempting to discredit it. I will certainly do everything I can to not miss out on such a valuable opportunity.

They've got quite enough on their plates setting up specialised media training workshops.  The hostile liberal media and scientific community might ask proponents of intelligent design where the science is.  You think teaching them how to respond is easy?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2010,21:19   

I've been reading Mikey Behe's little whine over at Evo Snooze and is it only me or is Mikey starting to sound like JAD.

Hey, you evotards!  Get off my lawn!  How do you like them dingleberries?

It could be that Behe, like JAD, hasn't done science for so long that his imagination and reality have merged.  You showed 'em, Mikey, you was a real contendah!

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2010,22:20   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Nov. 17 2010,03:59)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 16 2010,10:38)
Maybe the right will become disenchanted with the DI. It is obviously they're looking to fabricate something that isn't.

The rightists don't mind James O'Keefe, or using thugs. Why would they mind the Discotutes.


PS: The cross complaint was a really fun read. The AFA, and DI are screwed!

Unfortunately for the right they need a group like the DI. Fortunately for us they are so incompetent. The danger is if somebody could come along and do the sneaky stuff competently.

  
darvolution proponentsist



Posts: 8
Joined: Nov. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2010,00:25   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 16 2010,16:56)

I've seen that pic befoe ;-)

Hehe, it's a favorite of mine.

The wink suggests I should mention that the pic may be familiar to you but it's likely I am not. ;-)

--------------
的f your worldview starts with a problematic origin story, everything else is going to be infected ~ William Dembski

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2010,08:13   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 18 2010,07:42)
A New Zealand IDC fellow traveler visited the DI headquarters in Seattle and blogged about it.

I left a comment that comes up with an "awaiting moderation" notice.

Quote

"Responding to the science" -- since IDC hasn't ponied up science yet, the best that can be done in the interim is to examine what arguments and conjectures they have made. I've been there and done that. Get your copy of "Why Intelligent Design Fails" for the library here: http://tinyurl.com/2bo2ebt

Is it only the other side whose members engage in uncivil rhetoric? Here's a link that should convince any reasonable observer that IDC advocates do dish it out, too: http://antievolution.org/invcomp

Does the existence of uncivil IDC rhetoric also lead to the conclusion that their arguments have run out of steam? If not, why not?

The kwazy kiwi has responded.  I always love it when religiously dogmatic people dismiss anybody who isn't religiously dogmatic as being religiously dogmatic so as not to have to actually engage in any meaningful discourse.

Quote
Hi Wesley thanks for visiting my blog.

I知 afraid I can稚 take you seriously when you dogmatically claim an unreasonable statement like 的DC hasn稚 ponied up [any] science yet. This automatically puts you in the 途eligiously dogmatic camp in my books and not worth wasting time engaging with.

Nevertheless, I tried to open that second link but it appears to be broken can you check it please, I知 curious to see who is guilty of this. Thanks.



--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1005
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2010,11:31   

Go to Dillards!

Hey, check this out.  Isn't this the same shirt and tie that Dembski wore to the Hitchens debate?

Does Dr. Dr. only have one tie?

p.s.  Kwazy Kiwi provided a nice recent photo of our favorite Attack Gerbil.

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2010,20:34   

There is a new Luskin Gem up on Discovery Institute that has been linked to by bornagain77 on Hunter's blog.

I'm bored enough to start dissecting it. My initial scan indicates its a Gish Gallop.

I will start at the with the first set of papers in bullet #1. Is there anyone interested in helping me with other bullets?

Does Intelligent Design Help Science Generate New Knowledge?

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2010,23:10   

Bullet #1
Quote
- ID has inspired scientists to do research which has detected high levels of complex and specified information in biology in the form of fine-tuning of protein sequences. This has practical implications not just for explaining biological origins but also for engineering enzymes and anticipating / fighting the future evolution of diseases.
All the papers are from Douglas Axe who was named in the infamous Wedge Document. The first two papers were among a list of 菟eer-reviewed papers which supposedly supported Intelligent Design. These two papers have been thoroughly reviewed by ID critics (e.g. link). In short, the best case scenario for Axe is that he made a weak negative argument saying life is too complex and didn稚 even acknowledge the possibility of an ID or design alternative.

In the third paper, the title says it all The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds. It concludes with
Quote
Whichever way the matter is ultimately resolved, everyone with a genuine interest in science should agree that there is a scientific case against the neo-Darwinian explanation of biological origins, the arguments put forward here representing only a part of that case. Like all scientific cases, this one will be judged by the evidence, and the diversity of opinion as to the outcome is, on the whole, a good thing for science. For those who continue to think that protein origins can be explained within a broadly Darwinian framework, it should now be clear what lines of evidence stand in the way of that for the rest of us.
Ho Hum, just another ID argument claiming to have made 典HE case against Darwinian Evolution. There is nothing here to 妬nspire scientists. There are no suggestions for other avenues to explore. This is clearly a creationist argument against evolution.

The only 菟ractical implications of these three papers, especially the last one, is to suggest scientists are wasting their time. What should they do? Go to church and pray for answers?

Bullet #2
Quote
- ID has inspired scientists to seek and find instances of fine-tuning of the laws and constants of physics to allow for life, leading to a variety of fine-tuning arguments including the Galactic Habitable Zone. This has huge implications for proper cosmological models of the universe, hints at proper avenues for successful "theories of everything" which must accommodate fine-tuning, and other implications for theoretical physics.
The first paper, Refuges for Life in a Hostile Universe is a Scientific American article tailored to the mass market. A more directly applicable paper would be The Galactic Habitable Zone I. Galactic Chemical Evolution Guillermo Gonzalez, Donald Brownlee, Peter Ward 2001

It's no mystery as to why Luskin didn't reference it. If the title alone wasn't enough; it includes "In this paper we examine the dependence of the GHZ on Galactic chemical evolution."

The other paper referenced appears to be some engineers rediscovering what Newton and Kepler discovered long ago.

At best, any "inspiration" on this point is irrelevent to ID and/or is nothing new.

Bullet #3  
Quote
ID has inspired scientists to understand intelligence as a scientifically studyable cause of biological complexity, and to understand the types of information it generates.
The papers referenced are from ID loyalists making second-law-of-thermodynamics creationist arguments. McIntosh is reported to have "...repeatedly said the world is only 6,000 years old." link

Creation Scientists argued essencially the same this-is-science assertion in Edwards v. Aguillard, the Supreme Court didn't buy it. Without a doubt, this is probably the best argument creationists have, but it is still primarily a negative attack on evolution.

More inspiration for scientists to go to church for their answers?

Bullet #4
Quote
ID has inspired both experimental and theoretical research into how limitations on the ability of Darwinian evolution to evolve traits that require multiple mutations to function.

The Behe and Snoke paper says nothing at all in support of Intelligent Design.  Even so, the paper's assumptions and conclusion have been rebutted (Lynch 2005).

Ann K Gauger, Stephanie Ebnet, Pamela F Fahey, Ralph Seelke, "Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking Simple Adaptive Paths to High Fitness," Bio-Complexity, Vol. 2010).

-------

Blech, this is hard work. Having to read through all the junk and cross checking everything. I started to write a book and realize this is only one bullet so then I had to condense it. No wonder you guys can be so grouchy at times.

BTW, I found Gishlick, Matzke, and Elsberry's Meyer's Hopeless Monster which I thought was very well written. It included short summaries of Axe's paper.

I also liked Brayton's More DI Lies About Axe's Research

EDIT- Back to the grindstone (hate leaving things half finished) working on bullet #4

I'm going to need help or a lot of time for this one.

Ann K Gauger, Stephanie Ebnet, Pamela F Fahey, Ralph Seelke, "Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking," Bio-Complexity, Vol. 2010).

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3281
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2010,10:06   

Found this today.  You guys have probably read it, but here's the link:

Irreducible Incoherence

This is a well written article that describes exactly how Behe et. al. shift between definitions of IC to confuse the issue and prevent criticism.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2010,12:51   

"Whichever way the matter is ultimately resolved, everyone with a genuine interest in science should agree that there is a scientific case against the neo-Darwinian explanation of biological origins, the arguments put forward here representing only a part of that case. "

Reminds me of that arrogant nonsense in the ReMine/Sanford 'MA' paper - what was it?  'Any reasonable person will conclude that our model falsifies neo-darwinism' or words to that effect....

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2010,15:13   

Well slap me silly and call me Sally...I just discovered that the Disco Tute has an office right down the road from me! No joke. Here's a pic. At least this is the street view that corresponds to the address on their contact page.

Nice to see they clean your clothes while they dirty up your mind...

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2108
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 30 2010,21:09   

Quote (Robin @ Nov. 30 2010,13:13)
Well slap me silly and call me Sally...I just discovered that the Disco Tute has an office right down the road from me! No joke. Here's a pic. At least this is the street view that corresponds to the address on their contact page.

Nice to see they clean your clothes while they dirty up your mind...

3213 or 3216? That strip mall is 3216; 3213 would be across the street by the Baja Mexican Grill.

Edit map reading skills.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,08:59   

[quote=fnxtr,Nov. 30 2010,21:09][/quote]
Quote
Quote (Robin @ Nov. 30 2010,13:13)
Well slap me silly and call me Sally...I just discovered that the Disco Tute has an office right down the road from me! No joke. Here's a pic. At least this is the street view that corresponds to the address on their contact page.

Nice to see they clean your clothes while they dirty up your mind...

3213 or 3216? That strip mall is 3216; 3213 would be across the street by the Baja Mexican Grill.

Edit map reading skills.


The addy on the contact page is 3213, suite 812. I'll see if I can swing the camera around.


--------

Edit:

Not the best shot, but here it is. It's somewhere behind the tree, which for some reason seems appropriate to me.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,10:19   

So we have addresses. Good.

Campaign of bombing? Anyone? No?

{Mutter, grumble}

I hate being the "good guys".

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
MadPanda, FCD



Posts: 267
Joined: Nov. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,11:30   

Leaflet bombing.  Demotivational posters.  Bumper stickers and tee shirts.  And if those doesn't work, we pull out the stops and surround them en masse singing Imagine off key to the plunking of improperly tuned guitars.

No?

Nuts.


The MadPanda, FCD

--------------
"No matter how ridiculous the internet tough guy, a thorough mocking is more effective than a swift kick to the gentleman vegetables with a hobnailed boot" --Louis

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3281
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,11:36   

Quote (Louis @ Dec. 01 2010,10:19)
So we have addresses. Good.

Campaign of bombing? Anyone? No?

{Mutter, grumble}

I hate being the "good guys".

Louis

That is an ironic post...

I suggest just finding the nearest billboard and putting up a sign that says something like

"Science works, bitch.  Why don't you ID people do any?"

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,11:50   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 01 2010,17:36)
Quote (Louis @ Dec. 01 2010,10:19)
So we have addresses. Good.

Campaign of bombing? Anyone? No?

{Mutter, grumble}

I hate being the "good guys".

Louis

That is an ironic post...

I suggest just finding the nearest billboard and putting up a sign that says something like

"Science works, bitch. Why don't you ID people do any?"

Can't we just ban creationists of all stripes from benefitting from scientifically derived items?

At the very least it will make the internet a nicer place.

Louis (Tongue firmly in cheek)

--------------
Bye.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,16:14   

Quote (Louis @ Dec. 01 2010,09:50)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 01 2010,17:36)

That is an ironic post...

I suggest just finding the nearest billboard and putting up a sign that says something like

"Science works, bitch. Why don't you ID people do any?"

Can't we just ban creationists of all stripes from benefitting from scientifically derived items?

At the very least it will make the internet a nicer place.

Louis (Tongue firmly in cheek)

But I don't know what I'd do without my daily dose of mock.

ETA: That is a noun, innit?  If not, it should be.

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,17:22   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Dec. 01 2010,22:14)
Quote (Louis @ Dec. 01 2010,09:50)
 
Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 01 2010,17:36)

That is an ironic post...

I suggest just finding the nearest billboard and putting up a sign that says something like

"Science works, bitch. Why don't you ID people do any?"

Can't we just ban creationists of all stripes from benefitting from scientifically derived items?

At the very least it will make the internet a nicer place.

Louis (Tongue firmly in cheek)

But I don't know what I'd do without my daily dose of mock.

ETA: That is a noun, innit? If not, it should be.

You make a good point, but were I to answer the question for myself, particularly applicable to today, the answer would be "more work". Today has not been a good day.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2225
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2010,17:35   

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Dec. 01 2010,09:30)
Leaflet bombing. Demotivational posters. Bumper stickers and tee shirts. And if those doesn't work, we pull out the stops and surround them en masse singing Imagine off key to the plunking of improperly tuned guitars.

No?

Nuts.


The MadPanda, FCD

Can we test the hypothesis that I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
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