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phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,19:27   

Ah! too bad we aren't Intelligent Design Detectives. We'd have spotted design in Dembski's imbecility long ago.

You look like a fool!
"Erp, meant to do that."

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
cdesign proponentsist



Posts: 16
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,19:31   

Dembski is having another "street theatre" moment over his recent Darwin quote at UD, Link here.

Let me first say that I was totally confused when he turned to Darwin to provide a current evolutionary understanding of the human race and even more confused when he acted as if somehow science had injected the idea of racism into society rather than the other way around. (I would personally recommend Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man" as a more up-to-date scientific take-down of racism.) I'm not surprised that Darwin had faults, and I'm not wrapped up in protecting him from all criticism because his evolutionary theory does not stand based on his authority. But the religious projection of the IDists is so transparent that it's funny, and I can just imagine them believing that if they just win this Darwin vs. Jesus fight, they'll have biology on its knees.
But he was so eager to slime Darwin he couldn't be bothered to get the context of the quote right. To explain why he did this he applies that "critical thinking" that's made him a darling of ID critics everywhere.

 
Quote
I was well aware of the context. But if I make the context clear, PvM and his fellows will find something else to attack. Better to give them what appears a minor slip-up, let them attack that, and then show how they’re acting in bad faith because they have ignored the gist.


What a clever feint! Who ever accused him of trying to obfuscate in his writing?

But I think the most important part of the post is the clue to the evolution of ID and their future plans of the world domination. Most people were joking when they said it involved more tard, but apparently, the joke is on us.

 
Quote
Believe it or not, it really helps that the other side thinks we’re such morons.


In light of this strategy, I really must say I don't know how they could be doing a better job.

Edit- Darn, I was beat out by two posters. Oh well, this really did deserve its place in Dembski's highlighted words of wisdom.

--------------
"Believe it or not, it really helps that the other side thinks we’re such morons." -Dembski

The ID epiphany: Nothing in ID makes sense until you accept they're trying to look stupid.

  
stevestory



Posts: 8880
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,20:00   

If us thinking they're morons is part of their secret plan, then I must say, they've got us right where they want us.

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,20:07   

Quote
Believe it or not, it really helps that the other side..we’re such morons



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 8880
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,20:12   

By the way, there's a lot of juvenile sniping at the Intelligent Design people here, and I don't make any apologies for that because dishonest jerks like this don't deserve any better, but if anyone wants to take some time and write some serious, thoughtful analyses on the subject of evolution and/or intelligent design, contact me or Wes. The site is more than just this forum, and Wes is looking to add some fresh material to it.

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,21:13   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 25 2007,03:00)
If us thinking they're morons is part of their secret plan, then I must say, they've got us right where they want us.

Hah I'm already onto their stupid plan, an unintelligent design if ever there was one.

We could make Dembski look as though he is the smartest member of the ID morons which would further help his 'cunning stunt' by pointing out the more moronic they appear the better it is for them AND if they are stupid enough to play along with this ......Q.E.D.

This should be achieved with ones tongue firmly planted in ones cheek because it would make evolutionists look 'smart' by comparison and by further measurement with all IDers Dembski would then be considered an evolutionist. Thus unraveling his double secret super ninja spell to claim the anti-elites, 'values centric' contra-intellectual moral middle ground (or some other bullshitty Orwellian double speak).

Way to go Bill you know it's right ...right? Because you can feel it in your gut and that’s always right...right?

Hand that man a paper bag so he has something to wear over his head when he appears in public.

Pathetic.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2595
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,21:34   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 24 2007,19:00)
If us thinking they're morons is part of their secret plan, then I must say, they've got us right where they want us.

I might be a little old-fashioned, but I always thought the purpose of publishing was to convince your peers that you might have a valid point, not that you are a moron. Silly me.

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Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
hooligans



Posts: 114
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,21:44   

Let the betting begin . . . how long before OilBoy's comments dissapear? I'm saying they are gone before 12:00. You must remember no person can speak low, or question, the great double-reverse secret agent, known as Dr. Dr. Dembski. The great one who plays mind games with us peons has shown everyone up.

I must admit he had me totally fooled. Now I realize Darwin is evil and ID is the real deal. He is just too smart for any Darwinist.
   
Quote
7
OilBoy
03/24/2007
9:26 pm
To: russ

Perhaps, but I think there may be a simpler explanation.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2007,23:29   

Whoopsey outraged UD Tards:

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archive....omments

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1967
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,04:05   

Ah, the gentle irony!  I haven't been posting at UD (even if I had wanted to) because I changed computer a couple of months back, and tried to log in with what I thought was my username, and wasn't recognised.

Today I had to get a file from my old computer, so thought I'd use the opportunity to check my UD username.  So, I come here to find a link to UD, and see that Dembski's chuntering on about 19th Century Irish racism.  I go to UD, see a bit more about the same subject, and then find my username.  

Finally, we come to the irony.  Over here my username is Bob O'H (I'm too lazy to type the extra 'ara'), but UD doesn't like apostrophes, that common staple of Irish surnames.  It won't even let me escape it.  What have they got against the Irish?

Bob
P.S. Someone else can have fun with Dense O'Lry's "I can't be bothered to read what I'm criticising" post.  I can't be bothered to criticise what I'm reading.

--------------
ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,04:12   

This is my favorite post ( other than Dembski's ) on the "Proving my point at the Panda’s Thumb" thread at UD:
 
Quote
I think Bill was referring to the tactic of having your opponents “misunderestimate” you (as Bush made the statement famous), which allows you to raise above their expectations constantly. If they have no expectations of you, you can always rise to the challenge


Oh yeah. Jason the Greek "explanatizing" Billy's smooth move while claiming direct similarity to *snort* George Bush's shrewdness..because it allows one to rise above the expectation of idiocy when challenged.

Oh, yeah...set those standards HIGH, Jase -- it's all a cunning ruse. Good thing you play it so close to the vest, otherwise people might just think you're all brilliant academicians. You've got them all fooled!

Oh, and Jason? That Norwegian Blue parrot Billy just sold you is merely "resting his eyes."

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1967
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,04:15   

Something else has struck me: periodically, stevestory says that he's getting bored with UD, because it's not amusing or interesting any more.  Then, within a week or so, they bring up a new pile of superior quality tard from the mines.  This seems to have happened too often to be a coincidence.

Steve: they're doing all this just for you!

Bob

--------------
ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
stevestory



Posts: 8880
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,05:55   

Does it feel to anyone else that ID is now mostly an historical event?

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 1967
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,07:40   

I know what you mean, Steve, and you're probably right.  It certainly doesn't seem to have any intellectual vitality.  Isn't Behe meant to be publishing a new book?  If that doesn't contain any new ideas, then ID will have to wait for the Biologic Institute to start producing results.

It might recover, possibly under another name, but it doesn't look good.

Incidentally, I'm curious to know why money has been poured into efforts to promote ID and creationism in Europe.  What with the Truthiness in Science people in the UK sending schools lots of free material, and Harun Yahya sending his tome to European scientist (including the editor of the Journal of Evolutionary Biology.  It gave people in his department a laugh, anyway), a lot of money has obviously been thrown at us.  I just want t know who from, and can I have some?

Bob

--------------
ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,07:49   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 25 2007,12:55)
Does it feel to anyone else that ID is now mostly an historical event?

Or a used and abused tacky cheap blow up doll brought to a wild party as a joke passed around for its 15 minutes of glory and now in a corner still with the same sloppy open mouthed gawk it had new but now with the empties half covering it and a slow puncture?

When the last loser ID barnicle figures out that it's no longer 'hip and cool' they may just remember to turn out the lights which by coincidence are very untrendy incandescent ocean warmers.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2595
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,08:39   

Joseph                      
Quote
It is funny to see how many people misunderstand natural selection.

No! Don't do it! Don't respond to Joseph without the requisite training and equipment!

jasper                      
Quote
Yes, that is funny, especially since you managed to do so in your post.

Argh!! Too late! Too late.

   
Quote
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'



'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

Joseph doesn't know what "random" means or "pattern". He uses words in his own manner without regard to their accepted definitions and repudiates contingent definitions for the purpose of furthering discussion.

Random, 2 a: relating to, having, or being elements or events with definite probability of occurrence b: being or relating to a set or to an element of a set each of whose elements has equal probability of occurrence ; also : characterized by procedures designed to obtain such sets or elements

The term randomness is often used in statistics to signify well defined statistical properties, such as lack of bias or correlation. Random is different from arbitrary, because to say that a variable is random means that the variable follows a probability distribution; arbitrary, on the other hand, implies that there is no such determinable probability distribution for the variable.

Joseph                      
Quote
Variation is random. Differential survival is random. And heredity is random.

No, Joseph. Heredity is non-random. According to the Human Genome Project, heredity is the handing down of certain traits from parents to their offspring, and almost all (99.9%) nucleotide bases are exactly the same in all people. That means the vast majority of an offspring's genome (and morphological characteristics) can be predicted with great accuracy by examining a parent's genome (or morphological characteristics), even in sexually reproducing species. There are just a relatively few traits that are subject to random sexual recombination, but even these are often linked to other traits.

The environment is non-random, e.g. gravity has specific, predictable consequences.

Joseph                      
Quote
Finding a mate, mating successfully, and passing on your beneficial trait are all left to chance.

Frankly, the claim that mate selection is random is just bizarre. It very much depends on the organism. Consider deer bucks competing for a harem, or a high school dance. Joseph needs to get out more.

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Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,10:10   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 25 2007,04:55)
Does it feel to anyone else that ID is now mostly an historical event?

*Raises hand*

I posted about 'The golden age of tard' a few months ago. Looks like I owe me a bottle of single malt scotch.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1967
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,10:33   

True, Richard.  But it's only appropriate that you don't pay up.

Bob

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ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
steve_h



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,10:42   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Mar. 25 2007,10:05)
P.S. Someone else can have fun with Dense O'Lry's "I can't be bothered to read what I'm criticising" post.  I can't be bothered to criticise what I'm reading.

You are right. She doesn't seem to have followed the link to redstaterabble] where Dembski's "mistake" was  dealt with.    
Quote

Before we decide, let's do what Dembski and his readers didn't. Let's read the passage in context. Here's a link to the Project Gutenburg online text of Descent of Man.

As you can see, the first sentence cited by Dembski (The reckless, degraded...) is Darwin summarizing the views of Greg and Galton. The rest of the paragraph is Darwin quoting Greg.

Does Darwin do this because he agrees with Greg and Galton? No. He cites their arguments in order to refute them. They argue that if evolution were true, the Irish would "multiply like rabbits" and the good frugal Scots would, by their habit of marrying late, become extinct. In effect, Greg and Galton are making a powerful argument against evolution in man.
and she certainly did not follow the link to the original Darwin Text.

Instead she argues that Darwin must have been a racist because he was a British Toff, which is racist in itself. But if all "British Toffs" were racist as she claims, why single out Darwin for special treatment?


edit: Bob O''H,  did you try escaping the apostrophe with a second apostrophe?  Databases don't usually escape with backslashes.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,10:43   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 24 2007,19:12)
By the way, there's a lot of juvenile sniping at the Intelligent Design people here, and I don't make any apologies for that because dishonest jerks like this don't deserve any better, but if anyone wants to take some time and write some serious, thoughtful analyses on the subject of evolution and/or intelligent design, contact me or Wes. The site is more than just this forum, and Wes is looking to add some fresh material to it.

There are bazillions of pages of material at:

http://www.geocities.com/lflank

Feel free to use any of it you like.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,10:58   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 25 2007,04:55)
Does it feel to anyone else that ID is now mostly an historical event?

ID became a historical event in the wake of their utter disaster at the Kansas Kangaroo Kourt (when a political movement can't make itself be taken seriously *even if the other side refuses to show up*, you know the end is nigh).  The Dover Dolts then pounded the nails into the coffin of the already-dead corpse, and Kansas and Ohio covered the grave with fresh dirt.

ID has been dead for years.  The best the IDers can do now is keep walking the rotted corpse around, a la Weekend at Bernie's, and try to convince everyone that it's not really dead.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,11:13   

Quote (steve_h @ Mar. 25 2007,09:42)
Instead she argues that Darwin must have been a racist because he was a British Toff, which is racist in itself. But if all "British Toffs" were racist as she claims, why single out Darwin for special treatment?

There's been a lot of coverage on the 200th anniversary of the UK abolition of slavery in the last week or so. Apparently Erasmus Darwin, Charles grandfather, was one of the leading figures in the abolitionist movement.

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,12:04   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 25 2007,04:55)
Does it feel to anyone else that ID is now mostly an historical event?

Pretty much. Dead as a threat to science education anyway. I expect it will stay around for a while yet though as a way to fleece people of their cash by selling ill-informed books and similar stuff.

Unlike Lenny though I think it was Dover that was the turning point rather than Kansas (although Kansas was a heavy blow). Surely most of us was worried in the run-up to Dover? They had a (aparently) dream choice of Judge. It was only after the trial comenced that their stupidity started becoming obvious. Not just the rubes either, but Dembski fleeing and the Behe moment etcetera were all priceless.

Think back to the pre-trial confidence of ID once Judge Jones was anounced as the person to hear the case. I can certainly remember being a tad nervous.

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2595
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,12:36   

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 25 2007,04:55)
Does it feel to anyone else that ID is now mostly an historical event?

Intelligent Design is not a scientific research program, but a political movement (primarily American) that has used the language of science to persuade a lay-public to institute various societal changes, and is just one battle in a larger, cyclical social conflict. Its relegation to history is consistent with the general retreat as non reality-based philosophy founders on the rocks of reality.

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Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
N.Wells



Posts: 801
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,12:41   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 24 2007,19:07)
 
Quote
Believe it or not, it really helps that the other side..we’re such morons


Richard, I think that needs a little more trimming to be perfect.

Given the demonstrated willingness of Dr. Dr. Dembski and his fellow extremist ideologues such as Salvador to quote-mine and pubjack and to claim that there is nothing wrong with such actions, I think it only fair that to note that at 5:07 PM on 24 March 2007, in comment #4 on the UD thread, http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwini....-102717
William Dembski said,  
Quote
we’re such morons.




Also, HodorH has a response on that thread that probably won't last very long:  
Quote


   
Quote
"Believe it or not, it really helps that the other side thinks we’re such morons."


This strategy has been especially successful in court cases and recent school board elections.

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2595
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,12:57   

JasonTheGreek
Quote
Courts have ruled, in the past, that blacks aren’t full people, that segregation was constitutional, and that men could be held as slaves.

Actually, two of those three were established by custom, republican government, and the U.S. Constitution (well before Darwin published his Theory of Evolution).

--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
N.Wells



Posts: 801
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,13:13   

In a new post at http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....omments , Gil explands on his "wasted life" comments, but demonstrates that he really really doesn't get paleontologists.  He says,
 
Quote
What paleontologist would want to admit that he invested his life’s work in looking for transitional intermediates that never existed?

Although paleontologists are thrilled to find transitionals, and are happy to have a theory that offers a satisfactory explanation for the history of life, no paleontologists of my experience are driven by a desire to support a particular theory or worldview.  They do want understanding & scientific knowledge, but most seem driven by a love of finding and extracting fossils and by a glimpse into ancient times and lost worlds.  Without the ToE, I think most of the paleontologists I know would be no less driven to find fossils than the many avid fossil collectors from pre-ToE times.  

Also, it bears repeating that most biologists and paleontologists would jump at the chance to replace the ToE with a theory with their own name on it, as long as they had the evidence to back it up and not come off looking like an uniformed and gullible ignoramus.  After all, that how you reach the pinnacle of being a Darwin, an Einstein, or a Newton.

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2595
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,13:25   

     
Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 25 2007,11:41)
         
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 24 2007,19:07)
           
Quote
Believe it or not, it really helps that the other side..we’re such morons


Richard, I think that needs a little more trimming to be perfect.

Given the demonstrated willingness of Dr. Dr. Dembski and his fellow ideologues such as Salvador to quote-mine and pubjack and to claim that there is nothing wrong with such actions, I think it only fair that to note that at 5:07 PM on 24 March 2007, in comment #4 on the UD thread, http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwini....-102717
William Dembski said,            
Quote
we’re such morons.

I strongly disagree.  

Dembski          
Quote
...we’re such morons.

The ellipsis gives you complete deniability concerning an accusation of quote-mining (as long as you can keep a straight face (like I am right now)).

Dembski    
Quote
It’s not a strategy. It’s a fact, one that can be exploited.

Exploited for what purpose? What could possibly be your goal if not to convince your peers of the rightness of your position?

--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,13:34   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 25 2007,11:04)
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 25 2007,04:55)
Does it feel to anyone else that ID is now mostly an historical event?

Pretty much. Dead as a threat to science education anyway.

Until the next smokescreen for getting fundamentalist Christianity into science classes pops up.

Pure creationism is dead in the water, and ID may be too. But as long as someone can convince people that they're standing up for Jesus, then they'll get the funds to "teach the controversy!"

--------------
Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2007,13:37   

Quote (Wonderpants @ Mar. 25 2007,12:34)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 25 2007,11:04)
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 25 2007,04:55)
Does it feel to anyone else that ID is now mostly an historical event?

Pretty much. Dead as a threat to science education anyway.

Until the next smokescreen for getting fundamentalist Christianity into science classes pops up.

Pure creationism is dead in the water, and ID may be too. But as long as someone can convince people that they're standing up for Jesus, then they'll get the funds to "teach the controversy!"

But what they also need is the political power to do so.  They used to get that from the Republicrats.  Given the results of the last elections, I wouldn't count on that anymore.

Without the political influence of the Republicrat Party, the IDers are just a sewing circle, no more influential than the flat-earthers or geocentrists are.

Indeed, that is true of the fundamentalist movement as a whole --- and it is in serious trouble.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
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