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  Topic: Frontloading--Dumbest Idea Evar?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,14:38   

btw, Steve:

how is what Vmartin does any different, functionaly, from him being a sockpuppet of JAD?

perhaps THAT was the real reason he got the boot originally?

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,16:40   

Quote
It's your conviction they have some purpose. I've only asked what.
I'm basing my assumption on the fact that the functional regions of the proteins have been conserved and they are expressed in the sponge, most noticably in cells that perform a sensory function. Similar to the way certain sensory proteins involved in vision and hearing in humans are used in different sensory capacities in sea urchins.
Quote
You know it reminds me little to mushroom coloration. There should be some cryptic or aposematic function of  mushroom coloration according darwinism - and yet nobody know to explain it.
Why should there be?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,20:36   

Quote (VMartin @ June 13 2007,14:22)
Quote

...do you and JAD share a prescription?


Let's call it using Bateson words: '...an unpacking of an original complex which contained within itself the whole range of diversity which living things present'.

More on John Davison opinion on the topic at:

http://www.iscid.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-f-6-t-000370-p-44.html

VMartin, how do you feel about Davison's belief that God has died?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 8877
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,20:42   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 13 2007,15:38)
btw, Steve:

how is what Vmartin does any different, functionaly, from him being a sockpuppet of JAD?

perhaps THAT was the real reason he got the boot originally?

Hmm, that's a good question. VMartin gets the same allowances everyone else gets. He might parrot JAD's ideas, but it's JAD's behavior which got him banned, not his ideas, and if VMartin wants to persue JAD's ideas that's not a strike against him. If he exhibits JAD's crazy behaviors, he'll be banned after a few months, but if he just wants to support JAD's ideas, we're pretty content-neutral, as the SCOTUS would say.

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,20:46   

but doesn't that violate what was said about banning those that essentially say:

"well, JAD said this..."

so far, I have yet to see Vmartin actually espouse even a correct version of JAD's PEH, he merely talks about him much like Sal speaks of Dembski.

see where I'm going?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,20:58   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 13 2007,20:46)
but doesn't that violate what was said about banning those that essentially say:

"well, JAD said this..."

so far, I have yet to see Vmartin actually espouse even a correct version of JAD's PEH, he merely talks about him much like Sal speaks of Dembski.

see where I'm going?

I can't imagine what you mean.






--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,21:02   

exxxxcellent, Smithers.

btw, I can't recall where this:

Die. Twerp. Die. Before the cat gets you. -DO'L

came from.

did you really get Densye to say that?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,21:32   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 13 2007,21:02)
exxxxcellent, Smithers.

btw, I can't recall where this:

Die. Twerp. Die. Before the cat gets you. -DO'L

came from.

did you really get Densye to say that?

She said it with no prompting from me at all. :O

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,21:46   

well, she did say she was overreacting...

ROFLMAO!

what a nutbag.

wtf does "before the cat gets you" mean?

speculations?

some Canadian saying of some kind?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4470
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,22:31   

Quote

some Canadian saying of some kind?


DOL seems to be fond of regional idiomatic speech... like "Er hat einen Vogel", perhaps.

Of course, I'm fond of that one, since it is literally true in my case.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,22:36   

My german's a bit rusty, but AFAICT, that translates to:

He has a bird.

so...

what's the slang usage?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4470
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,22:45   

Diane ran into that one in college when she took one of those intensive language courses in German. Students were encouraged to bring props and talk about their interests, so one day Diane comes into class with her cockatiel, points to it, and says, "Ich haba einen Vogel" (sp.? I didn't take the German class...). The instructor fell off his chair laughing, and went out of the room. He fetched another instructor back and asked her to repeat what she said, she did, and the other guy busted out laughing, too. Finally they revealed that in parts of Germany that's slang (in the third person) for "She/he is crazy". Diane having essentially said "I'm crazy" tickled those guys.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,23:02   

ahhh, something like calling someone a bird-brain, i would wager.

yes, that is exactly the kind of thing I am thinking explains the "before the cat gets you" phrase.

but I've been to BC, Toronto, and Montreal, and must have missed that expression somehow.

maybe it's a "small mind" type put down?

person is so "small" they have to worry about the cat getting them, or some such thing?

Now I'm genuinely curious.  she has no wit to speak of, so she had to have heard it somewhere.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,23:10   

just for kicks, I googled the phrase "before the cat gets you", and other than Densye, I only found one reference using it as a phrase, but the link

Quote
SD-1.net: We're Pretty Well Used To Batshit Crazy Around Here ...


was busted.

LOL

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2007,23:30   

ah, I think I've got it:

it's a twist on the "cat that swallowed the canary" thing.

maybe she is looking at the the canary being smug, cause it thinks it's safe in a cage and all.  Maybe she thinks of academics in ivory towers like canaries in cages??

maybe the usage from the original got twisted 180 somehow, since it is typically the cat that is thought to be smug and self-satisified?

wouldn't be the first time she got something 180 degrees backwards.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 14 2007,05:37   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 14 2007,05:31)
Quote

some Canadian saying of some kind?


DOL seems to be fond of regional idiomatic speech... like "Er hat einen Vogel", perhaps.

Of course, I'm fond of that one, since it is literally true in my case.

I have a copy of Vogel on my shelf too.

Oh wait, that's not what you meant is it? Damn, foiled again!

Louis

P.S. "Ich bin ein Berliner". Great diplomatic cock up "I am a Berlin cake (or doughnut)". Never say Ich bin warm (I am gay) or Ich bin heisse (I am horny) in Germany unless you really mean it. Never try to bum a fag off an American, entirely different prospect, and never name your car Nova in a Spanish speaking country.

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Bye.

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2007,14:02   

Quote

I'm basing my assumption on the fact that the functional regions of the proteins have been conserved and they are expressed in the sponge, most noticably in cells that perform a sensory function.


There might have been many independent creations and no common ancestor. I am not sure that sponge and a human has anything common. Their evolutionary ancestors might have been created independently and so no common ancestor of them ever existed.

It is often the case that new organisms showed up "abruptly" without predecessors. The origination of mammalian orders seems to be such a case. Then the evolution slows down and no new "body plan" evolves.
In such cases we can presume that an ancestor bear all genetic setup for further evolution. Subsequent evolution only unfolds front-loaded dispositions.

Btw - can you explain me your position? I suppose that also according darwinism life could arose many times in different places too. So maybe according darwinism sponge and human may have no common ancestor either?

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
SpaghettiSawUs



Posts: 77
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2007,14:30   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 14 2007,05:30)
ah, I think I've got it:

it's a twist on the "cat that swallowed the canary" thing.

maybe she is looking at the the canary being smug, cause it thinks it's safe in a cage and all.  Maybe she thinks of academics in ivory towers like canaries in cages??

Bingo.

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On June 23, 2007, 01:06 PM AFDave wrote: "How can we dismiss their theories without first reading their work?"

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2007,14:48   

[post scrapped]

I'm going to use Vmartin for the experiment I suggested instead.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2007,14:48   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 13 2007,22:45)
Diane ran into that one in college when she took one of those intensive language courses in German. Students were encouraged to bring props and talk about their interests, so one day Diane comes into class with her cockatiel, points to it, and says, "Ich haba einen Vogel" (sp.? I didn't take the German class...). The instructor fell off his chair laughing, and went out of the room. He fetched another instructor back and asked her to repeat what she said, she did, and the other guy busted out laughing, too. Finally they revealed that in parts of Germany that's slang (in the third person) for "She/he is crazy". Diane having essentially said "I'm crazy" tickled those guys.

Try "c'est la vie" in Cuba.

translates to "I see her woman parts."

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,02:20   

There is no answer to my latest post but never mind. It is better to discuss here some linguistic nonsense as usually. Darwinists like linguistic because origin of languages are as obscure as origin of species. Probably darwinists are able to discuss not only evolution of languages but also their origin (even though French Academy do not publish works at such obscure issues anymore).  


Neverthenless John Davison's opinion on frontloading is that it probably occured many times independently:

Quote

There may have literally been tens of thousands of either origins or, more likely, that many front loadings of a lesser number of original creations. The origin of life was a miracle, and thousands of miracles are no more miraculous than one. Miracles are like that don’t you know.


And John Davison's opinion of evolution of Orders:

Quote

It is perfectly possible that life originated as many times as there are Orders of animals and plants.


seems to be well supported by "abruptly" origin of many Orders. Mammals are very good example where darwinism have to resort to the curious explanation of this "abruptly" origin - Yucatan meteorite, empty niches or :


Modern orders of mammals that appeared abruptly on northern continents coincident with the global warming event marking the Paleocene-Eocene boundary are hypothesized to have originated on the Indian subcontinent, but no relevant paleontological information has been available to test this idea.


The article is from Geology, vol. 31, Issue 12, p.1097 Publication Date: 12/2003

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,03:18   

Quote (VMartin @ June 16 2007,02:20)
There is no answer to my latest post but never mind. It is better to discuss here some linguistic nonsense as usually.

Hi VMartin,
As a matter of fact I asked you a couple of questions in response to your earlier posts. Therefore it's disingenuous to claim that you had "no answer" when "no answer" is exactly what you have given me.

Carry on.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,03:20   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 11 2007,13:29)
Quote
Such an idea of front-loading seems to better explain evolution as darwinian mantras of random mutation and natural selection does.


Can you give us an example?

Quote
That these three different morphological structures of the same indivudal evolved gradually via random mutation&natural selection is probably another darwinian fancy.


You say probably. Is there some doubt in your mind then? What experiments could be conducted to remove that doubt?

like this one.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1365
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,05:46   

Quote
I am not sure that sponge and a human has anything common.


What about both being based on carbon, identical genetic code, chirality, etc.?

 
Quote
Hi VMartin,
As a matter of fact I asked you a couple of questions in response to your earlier posts. Therefore it's disingenuous to claim that you had "no answer" when "no answer" is exactly what you have given me.


Exactly, VMartin. You could try extending to others the same courtesy you expect from them.

PS Humour works well too :)

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,06:26   

oldmaninthesky....

Quote

You say probably. Is there some doubt in your mind then? What experiments could be conducted to remove that doubt?


There is no need to make experiments - we see that evolution is over. Former evolutionary forces are not taking place anymore. No mammalian Order evolved from Eocene - and probably even more. But it is up to you to make experiments and show how homo sapiens evolved gradually from an ancient fish. If you have no experiments that show such a nonsense to be correct and scientific - why do you adhere to darwinism? And why do you demand "contra" experiments?

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,06:49   

Quote
There is no need to make experiments - we see that evolution is over.

Where have you been looking? And over what timescales? You seem very sure.
 
Quote
Former evolutionary forces are not taking place anymore.

Again, what were they and why did they stop? Does the evolution of TB and other similar things count? If so, why not? If it does, then what are you talking about?
 
Quote
 No mammalian Order evolved from Eocene - and probably even more.

Bald assertions don't really cut the ice. Again, I notice the word probably. Is there doubt in your mind then? What could you do to remove this doubt? When people talk about evolution they don't say "Man evolved (probably evolved, but he *might* have been poofed into existence)". Well, not unless they are FTK and her ilk anyway.

What can you do to remove the probably? Are you really happy with a guess?
 
Quote

But it is up to you to make experiments and show how homo sapiens evolved gradually from an ancient fish.

Is it? Why thank you. So, what are transitional fossils then?
 
Quote

If you have no experiments that show such a nonsense to be correct and scientific - why do you adhere to darwinism?

If you have no experiments that show such that your position is correct why do you adhere to it?
 
Quote

And why do you demand "contra" experiments?

You can confirm and disconfirm. But I doubt you'll do either.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,09:53   

Quote

 
Quote
 
No mammalian Order evolved from Eocene - and probably even more.


Bald assertions don't really cut the ice. Again, I notice the word probably. Is there doubt in your mind then? What could you do to remove this doubt? When people talk about evolution they don't say "Man evolved (probably evolved, but he *might* have been poofed into existence)". Well, not unless they are FTK and her ilk anyway.

What can you do to remove the probably? Are you really happy with a guess?


Probably - again - you didn't read my previous post completely. There was a quotation of abstract from a scientific journal.  You probably din't make any own research to find out and disprove my "bald assertion" when mammalian orders evolved.


At least five lineages of placental mammals
arose more than 100 million years ago, and most of the modern orders seem to have diversified before the Cretaceous/Tertiary
extinction of the dinosaurs.


Amolecular timescale for vertebrate evolution
Sudhir Kumar & S. Blair Hedges
http://www.kumarlab.net/pdf_new/KumarHedges98.pdf

or have a look at the chart please:



http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Mammalian_Adaptive_Radiation.htm

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,10:28   

Quote (VMartin @ June 16 2007,09:53)
Quote

 
Quote
 
No mammalian Order evolved from Eocene - and probably even more.


Bald assertions don't really cut the ice. Again, I notice the word probably. Is there doubt in your mind then? What could you do to remove this doubt? When people talk about evolution they don't say "Man evolved (probably evolved, but he *might* have been poofed into existence)". Well, not unless they are FTK and her ilk anyway.

What can you do to remove the probably? Are you really happy with a guess?


Probably - again - you didn't read my previous post completely. There was a quotation of abstract from a scientific journal.  You probably din't make any own research to find out and disprove my "bald assertion" when mammalian orders evolved.


At least five lineages of placental mammals
arose more than 100 million years ago, and most of the modern orders seem to have diversified before the Cretaceous/Tertiary
extinction of the dinosaurs.


Amolecular timescale for vertebrate evolution
Sudhir Kumar & S. Blair Hedges
http://www.kumarlab.net/pdf_new/KumarHedges98.pdf

or have a look at the chart please:



http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Mammalian_Adaptive_Radiation.htm

so what's your point exactly?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
qetzal



Posts: 309
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,12:31   

Quote (VMartin @ June 16 2007,09:53)
Probably - again - you didn't read my previous post completely. There was a quotation of abstract from a scientific journal.  You probably din't make any own research to find out and disprove my "bald assertion" when mammalian orders evolved.


At least five lineages of placental mammals
arose more than 100 million years ago, and most of the modern orders seem to have diversified before the Cretaceous/Tertiary
extinction of the dinosaurs.


Amolecular timescale for vertebrate evolution
Sudhir Kumar & S. Blair Hedges
http://www.kumarlab.net/pdf_new/KumarHedges98.pdf

Probably you didn't read your own citation completely. This paper offers evidence that mammalian orders appeared less abruptly than previously thought. Here's their final paragraph (emphasis added):
Quote
Our molecular timescale for vertebrate evolution will be useful in calibrating local molecular clocks and in estimating intraordinal divergence times more reliably, especially in groups with poor fossil records. Molecular times also provide an independent measure of the tempo and mode of morphological change. For example, the sudden appearance (in the Early Tertiary fossil record) of mammalian and avian orders, which show large morphological differences, has been taken to imply rapid rates of morphological change at that time(14,24). Now, the possibility of 20–70Myr of prior evolutionary history relaxes that assumption and suggests a greater role for Earth history in the evolution of terrestrial vertebrates(12,25). An accurate knowledge of divergence times can help to direct the search for ‘missing’ fossils and test hypotheses of macroevolution.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 16 2007,12:46   

VMartin:

Speaking of not answering questions, here's one you've ignored twice: how do you feel about Davison's belief that God has died?

Also, here are two other questions you shouldn't ignore:

Quote
So, what are transitional fossils then?


If you have no experiments that show such that your position is correct why do you adhere to it?



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
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