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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 2, general discussion of Dembski's site< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
mitschlag



Posts: 235
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,06:40   

Tucked behind the Christmas tree:

Steve Fuller joins the Tardfest!

:D

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"You can establish any “rule” you like if you start with the rule and then interpret the evidence accordingly." - George Gaylord Simpson (1902-1984)

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,06:45   

Kairosfocus is still consumed with the unfairness of it all:
Quote
1 –> If we use brief summaries [which inherently cannot stand by themselves and are easily subjected to nit-picking objections], they are twisted into strawmen and occasions to dismiss and even disdain the case being made.

2 –> If we use such summaries and link to external longer discussions, that is also ignored/dismissed or even met with the demand to “show us here and now,” joined to the same sort of strawmen as at 1.

3 –> If we make comments of sufficient length and development of points to even initially deal with the issue and likely objections, that becoems “too long” to address and/or is dismissed as mere empty verbosity.

That sounds uncommonly like: “heads we win, tails you lose, sides — you lose yet again.”

In the end, my position is to [perhaps with the able assistance of folks like SB!] make summaries for decision-makers, backed up with adequate discussions when these show up as necessary, and trust the many onlookers [FYI: by far and away most of these are NOT banned, AE folks . . . ] to across time see who is seriously engaging evidence and issues, and who is in the end playing rhetorical games.

[Let us never forget that that rather ungainly and rhetorically less than scintillatingly brilliant figure, Paul of Tarsus, was literally laughed out of court in Athens in Ac 17. But, at length, he it was who built the future.]

G’day all . . .

GEM of TKI

Laugh while you can, heathens -- KF is building the future (with the able assistance of lesser folk like SB and other "decision-makers").

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,06:50   

Quote (mitschlag @ Dec. 29 2008,04:40)
Tucked behind the Christmas tree:

Steve Fuller joins the Tardfest!

That's gonna be sweet.  He brings a real potential for some Dembski-like meltdowns.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1663
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,07:03   

Could somebody refresh my memory?  Who is Steve Fuller?

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Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,07:20   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Dec. 29 2008,05:03)
Could somebody refresh my memory?  Who is Steve Fuller?

He's a sociologist of science at the University of Warwick who testified on behalf of the defense at the Dover trial.  Infamous for suggesting that there should be a kind of "affirmative action" program for ID.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,07:55   

Fuller's 2009 to-do list for ID is very promising:
Quote
In particular, my comments will focus on two general lines of thought that have also been featured in two books I have written relating to the debate over the past couple of years. Science vs. Religion? Intelligent Design and the Problem of Evolution and Dissent over Descent: Intelligent Design’s Challenge to Darwinism
1. Darwinism is an undead 19th century social theory.
2. ID needs to confront the ‘Pastafarian’ Argument.

Water or decaff only, Steve. :p

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If you are not:
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please Logout »

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,08:39   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 29 2008,00:49)
Quote (keiths @ Dec. 29 2008,01:05)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 28 2008,20:58)
...and we saw one of the ducks (i think) with the little poof on it's head...

Goddidit!

You know it my friend. Obviously the mutation is not evolution because

1 It's just microevolution
2 It's just the destruction of the information "how not to have a poof on your head"
3 You didn't personally witness that the mutation's cause was random
etc etc probably several more dumb things.

I'm glad I'm not kairosfocus. Conveying the above information would have taken him a post the size of a New Yorker article on the comprehensive history of China.

I don't think that these originated in Florida; you can see them all over the world. Here's one from California.



More pics here

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4238
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,08:53   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 29 2008,09:39)

And here I thought the labradoodle was a weird idea.

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1956
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,09:08   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Dec. 29 2008,05:03)
Could somebody refresh my memory?  Who is Steve Fuller?

One of the more amusing moments reading the Kitzmiller decision was when Jones cites Steve Fuller's testimony as support for the plaintiffs.

Edited by Dr.GH on Dec. 29 2008,07:08

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,09:12   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 29 2008,09:53)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 29 2008,09:39)

And here I thought the labradoodle was a weird idea.

Google or Wikipedia "crested duck" for more info. Apparently a point mutation, well known to breeders.

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,09:18   

Quote (mitschlag @ Dec. 29 2008,07:40)
Tucked behind the Christmas tree:

Steve Fuller joins the Tardfest!

:D

and he starts out so well...

Gravity, shorn of it's scientific scaffolding, is just a 17th Century social theory...

Steve, that's a great explanation of why everyone focuses on the power of the scientific scaffolding and leaves the 19th Century social theory to historians of science.

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1969
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,09:22   

Quote (mitschlag @ Dec. 29 2008,06:40)
Tucked behind the Christmas tree:

Steve Fuller joins the Tardfest!

:D

Yay!  has he just sold his remaining academic credibility, just to take the piss out of UDers?  His point about having to say something about the designer is blatantly obvious, but they've spent years trying to deny it.  This could be fun, when someone realises that he's off-message.

Oh, and notice the  "buy my book(s)" motif too.

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ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,11:01   

Oh, Sallyann, it was nice knowing you.

Hmmmm?
Quote
Stripped of its current scientific scaffolding does intelligent design become a 21st century social theory?
Only asking


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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,11:06   

Tribune wades in...but decides he's afraid of water.

A decided lack of follow-through.

Quote
That’s a point, but the best way to address it is to simply say that belief in the FSM (or Chutulu, or Zeus or whatever imaginary deity they throw at us) is infinitely more rational and logically consistent than atheistic materialism.

And it is. And it is not hard to show it.


But I'm not going to get into it here...or ever?

Quote
Also, we have to remember that ID can’t show you the FSM to be false. Other means — which include logic using axioms — are required.


Um?  Are those axioms that actively choose to use logic?  Or, are they axioms that require the use of logic by those who apply them?  Or...more coffee.

Tribune, apply some logic to the FSM problem; you may be surprised at your conclusions.  I know I will be if you ever choose to share them.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,11:07   

Quote (mitschlag @ Dec. 29 2008,06:40)
Tucked behind the Christmas tree:

Steve Fuller joins the Tardfest!

:D

And it starts strong with sallyann
Quote
Stripped of its current scientific scaffolding does intelligent design become a 21st century social theory?


Stripped of its current scientific scaffolding, ID is unchanged in any measurable way.  Rather like stripping Davey of his intellectual integrity.

  
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,11:20   

Quote (Maya @ Dec. 29 2008,11:07)
Quote (mitschlag @ Dec. 29 2008,06:40)
Tucked behind the Christmas tree:

Steve Fuller joins the Tardfest!

:D

And it starts strong with sallyann
Quote
Stripped of its current scientific scaffolding does intelligent design become a 21st century social theory?


Stripped of its current scientific scaffolding, ID is unchanged in any measurable way.  Rather like stripping Davey of his intellectual integrity.

Reality is optional for pmobl
Quote
Darwinism prospered prior to presentation of compelling scientific evidence. Clearly other things propelled it early on, e.g., the rise of secularism and Modern naturalism. Similarly, I think Design will prevail now, not because it enjoys scientific confirmation but because it fits nicely into new paradigms that happen to be ascendant, in part for other than scientific reasons.

  
stevestory



Posts: 8896
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,11:32   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 29 2008,09:39)
I don't think that these originated in Florida; you can see them all over the world. Here's one from California.

I don't know where they came from. And "mutant lakeland ducks" etc didn't return much on google. I'll have to get GF to find out more and mail me some info.

   
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,11:54   

I'm looking forward to a discussion of why God always chooses design methods that look just like undirected evolution.

Clearly she wants to be left alone -- a sort of divine Greta Garbo -- but the IDers can't take a hint.  You'd have thought that Dover would have been a clue, or Dembski's traumatic banishment from the Baylor cafeteria, but no -- they keep pestering her.

If this goes on I think they're in for some serious smiting in 2009.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,12:31   

Will there be more ID predictions from Dr Dembski for 2009?
     
Quote
Touchstone: Where is the ID movement going in the next ten years? What new issues will it be exploring, and what new challenges will it be offering Darwinism?

Dembski:
In the next five years, molecular Darwinism — the idea that Darwinian processes can produce complex molecular structures at the subcellular level — will be dead. When that happens, evolutionary biology will experience a crisis of confidence because evolutionary biology hinges on the evolution of the right molecules. I therefore foresee a Taliban-style collapse of Darwinism in the next ten years. Intelligent design will of course profit greatly from this. For ID to win the day, however, will require talented new researchers able to move this research program forward, showing how intelligent design provides better insights into biological systems than the dying Darwinian paradigm.

So, if that was in 2004 then molecular Darwinism — the idea that Darwinian processes can produce complex molecular structures at the subcellular level — will be dead in just over a years time?
Link Link Link
Will Dembski remember to gloat in a years time? Will there be a new odour related flash animation perhaps?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3558
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,12:37   

Quote
I may be wrong, but I personally believe that ID needs to split into rival schools, with competing models of the Designer’s modus operandi and objectives, before it can make headway scientifically, and get “runs on the board,” so to speak.


http://www.uncommondescent.com/evoluti....-300947

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,12:43   



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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4362
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,12:44   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Dec. 29 2008,12:31)
Will there be more ID predictions from Dr Dembski for 2009?
       
Quote
Touchstone: Where is the ID movement going in the next ten years? What new issues will it be exploring, and what new challenges will it be offering Darwinism?

Dembski:
In the next five years, molecular Darwinism — the idea that Darwinian processes can produce complex molecular structures at the subcellular level — will be dead. When that happens, evolutionary biology will experience a crisis of confidence because evolutionary biology hinges on the evolution of the right molecules. I therefore foresee a Taliban-style collapse of Darwinism in the next ten years. Intelligent design will of course profit greatly from this. For ID to win the day, however, will require talented new researchers able to move this research program forward, showing how intelligent design provides better insights into biological systems than the dying Darwinian paradigm.

So, if that was in 2004 then molecular Darwinism — the idea that Darwinian processes can produce complex molecular structures at the subcellular level — will be dead in just over a years time?
Link Link Link
Will Dembski remember to gloat in a years time? Will there be a new odour related flash animation perhaps?

Outstanding catch, shoot and score!  Looks like Santa brought you a memory upgrade for Christymas!

I hope you're not waiting for that single-malt bottle of scotch that Dembski always wagers - always loses - and never pays off with.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,12:48   

Dembski in 2004  
Quote
showing how intelligent design provides better insights into biological systems than the dying Darwinian paradigm.

William J. Murray 2008  
Quote
Fuller says: “After all, what good is a theory of ‘intelligent design’ if it has nothing to say about the nature of the designer? ”

Uh .. it will make testable predictions and will lead to better working understandings of features of the universe and life than the non-foresighted, non-designed model? It will lead to an easier and faster understanding of phenomena, instead of trying to shoehorn everything into the non-foresighted model?

Link
So, four years ago Dembski notes he expects "better insights" from an ID viewpoint, four years later the fans at UD are still talking about these "insights" in the future tense.

ID will lead to an easier and faster understanding of phenomena?

When?  :D

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,12:54   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 29 2008,08:39)

Poof on the head?  Poof on the head?!  I'll show you fecking poof on the fecking head.




Never send a duck to do a chicken's job.

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,13:30   

Thanks to Fuller, the big tent is coming apart:    
Quote

19
Upright BiPed
12/29/2008
2:11 pm

Steve Fuller,

Quote
After all, what good is a theory of ‘intelligent design’ if it has nothing to say about the nature of the designer?


I couldn’t disagree with you more. Going down this road is a fool’s choice. The answer to your question is simple: The nature of the Designer is not a scientific question. Forcing it into the conversation will eliminate ID from the debate.

[...]

Before you saddle up your dinosaur, I strongly suggest you take these remnants of wisdom to heart.


20
allanius
12/29/2008
2:14 pm

My G-d, someone at UD finally came right out and said it. Thought we would never see the day.

Accommodationists—what you desire will never come to pass. You will never be taken seriously by the Big Science establishment because Darwinism is a belief system, linked to identity. You can play all sorts of semantic games about your intentions, a la Casey Luskin, but none of it will matter. They will never let you in the club; worse, in your eagerness to play nice with them you will forfeit the high ground you gain gratis through the self-evident nature of ID, which becomes more obvious with each passing day.

IDers who claim to be agnostic—your position is as untenable as it is tedious. There is no intelligence in nature and no capacity for design. Those who think there can be are indulging in a sophisticated form of the pathetic fallacy. One thing Plato said that is undeniably true is “Nothing comes from nothing.” A complex organ represents a preexisting idea, a plan. To attempt to substitute vast periods of time for the required plan is to commit the same sin against logic and common sense as Lucretius.

[...]


21
William J. Murray
12/29/2008
2:24 pm


#19: Exactly.
#20: And so the internal war begins.



--------------
If you are not:
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please Logout »

  
stevestory



Posts: 8896
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,13:50   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 29 2008,12:32)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 29 2008,09:39)
I don't think that these originated in Florida; you can see them all over the world. Here's one from California.

I don't know where they came from. And "mutant lakeland ducks" etc didn't return much on google. I'll have to get GF to find out more and mail me some info.

GF says I got mixed up. Crested ducks -- which we saw and were cute -- are not what originated in Lakeland. What originated in Lakeland was some kind of grey swan. Again, I can't find anything on google, but I'll post more when i know more.

   
someotherguy



Posts: 367
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,13:57   

Oh noes!  D'OL is concerned that Obama's pick for director of the White House Office of Science and Technology is a "crank."  Truly, irony is dead.

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Evolander in training

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,14:06   

Quote (someotherguy @ Dec. 29 2008,14:57)
Oh noes!  D'OL is [URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/science/intelligent-design-and-popular-culture-population-crank-is-now-us-science-and-technology-p

olicy-director/]concerned[/URL] that Obama's pick for director of the White House Office of Science and Technology is a "crank."  Truly, irony is dead.

Serious tard:

Quote
Note: My Salvo 6 column on the ongoing stem cell scam is now online. If you got money for Christmas, take the opportunity to subscribe to Salvo. There you will find out about still more amazing establishment science scams - and many other fascinating details of the collapse of popular materialist culture)


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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,14:08   

Quote (keiths @ Dec. 29 2008,09:06)
Kairosfocus is still smarting from the charges of windbaggery:
Quote
Onlookers, how many even basic proofs in Geometry can effectively be presented in 200 words in a context where challenge is likely? As noted previously, that is the length of a synopsis that needs immediately present backup, not a serious case. Or, why do corporate presentations not simply stop at the Executive Summary? or, why is it often said that "the devil is in the details"?

KF, it's not just the length of your comments.  It's the absurdly low ratio of useful content to bulk.  People might be willing to wade through your verbal hemorrhages if they packed a rhetorical punch or delivered novel information and insights, but all that readers get for their efforts are repetitive arguments and verbal preening.

For example, what purpose does the following sentence serve that isn't purely masturbatory?
Quote
The effect in the end of the substance of 156 (as, in the end, a capstone to several substantial comments and one outstanding one at 21) — whatever real or perceived defects one may find in style or length — speaks for itself.

The reason people hate your long comments, KF, is that they feel cheated after reading them.

The best thing about KF is that we must have all run into a KF in our lives. He is the guy at meetings who insists on a 2 hour presentation with 50 powerpoint slides on some point that could be dealt with in 5 minutes.

  
dmso74



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 29 2008,14:31   

Quote
fff

  
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