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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 2, general discussion of Dembski's site< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,09:50   

Quote (Missing Shade of Blue @ Dec. 20 2008,05:56)
[SNIP]

The level of discourse at UD is distressingly juvenile (that's also often true of the discourse here, but at least you guys do it intentionally).

[SNIP]

Guilty as charged, Sah! Huzzah and God Save the Queen! Etc.

Anyway:

Welcome! Well you've made an excellent start thus far, so welcome again. It's nice to have intelligent people to debate with.

Having read through your posts, I have a couple of comments which there is no longer any point in making because Bill, Keiths and others have made them for me.

I'll join in if and when they miss something (highly unlikely) or if I feel I have a novel slant.

Again, welcome.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 8956
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,09:54   

I started a Missing Shade of Blue thread for MSB's specific questions.

   
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,10:16   

Quote (Missing Shade of Blue @ Dec. 20 2008,04:34)
Something constrained the evolution of inductive preferences to ones that have worked fairly consistently.

Yes, something resulted in reproductive success based on feedback from the environment.
Quote
It couldn't have been natural selection

That's exactly what it was, by definition.
Quote
, because given he environment up to time t, there is a literally infinite choice among predicates that agree up to t, but disagree later.

There is only one set of predicates that actually happened, though.  If the life forms currently extant hadn't been well adapted to those predicates, they wouldn't be here.
Quote
Somehow the predicates chosen for us at t have worked all the way up to t + 5*10^6 yrs.

And if those predicates change significantly enough, existing life will either adapt or die.  It has happened in the past and will no doubt happen in the future.
Quote
This is mysterious to me.

Your sense of mystery seems influenced by the implicit assumption that humans are the pinnacle of evolution.  We're just another lucky chimp.

  
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,10:28   

Quote (keiths @ Dec. 19 2008,20:21)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 19 2008,17:12)
I do agree with Barry that "Keith," whoever he is, did a fine job representing a non-dualist position, and correcting Denyse's and Barry's ridiculous misrepresentations.

Thanks, Bill.  I was 'Keith'.  Still am, actually.

Keith,

Did anyone touch on why UD prohibits open discussion, no matter how politely disagreements are worded?  I'd love to hear the same people who complain about being "expelled" defending their own censorship.

Maya

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,10:59   

Quote (Maya @ Dec. 20 2008,08:28)
 
Quote (keiths @ Dec. 19 2008,20:21)
 
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 19 2008,17:12)
I do agree with Barry that "Keith," whoever he is, did a fine job representing a non-dualist position, and correcting Denyse's and Barry's ridiculous misrepresentations.

Thanks, Bill.  I was 'Keith'.  Still am, actually.

Keith,

Did anyone touch on why UD prohibits open discussion, no matter how politely disagreements are worded?  I'd love to hear the same people who complain about being "expelled" defending their own censorship.

Maya

I had planned to bring that up as a parting comment, but I only found out during the last commercial break that I wasn't going to get a chance to speak on the air after the break was over.

Bummer.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4244
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,11:10   

Quote (keiths @ Dec. 20 2008,11:59)
   
Quote (Maya @ Dec. 20 2008,08:28)
     
Quote (keiths @ Dec. 19 2008,20:21)
       
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 19 2008,17:12)
I do agree with Barry that "Keith," whoever he is, did a fine job representing a non-dualist position, and correcting Denyse's and Barry's ridiculous misrepresentations.

Thanks, Bill.  I was 'Keith'.  Still am, actually.

Keith,

Did anyone touch on why UD prohibits open discussion, no matter how politely disagreements are worded?  I'd love to hear the same people who complain about being "expelled" defending their own censorship.

Maya

I had planned to bring that up as a parting comment, but I only found out during the last commercial break that I wasn't going to get a chance to speak on the air after the break was over.

Bummer.

That suppression of your opportunity for a final comment was painfully obvious during the broadcast. Even in realtime it felt biased and underhanded.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2598
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,11:56   

Quote
DonaldM: Today, I had the privilege to have lunch with a research scientist who works in the area of bio-pharmaceuticals for a pharmaceutical company.

DonaldM wants to make an appeal to authority, but the authority is unnamed.

Quote
DonaldM: To clarify, I said, “so the heuristic value of evolutionary theory to your biological research is….” and he answered “Nil!”.

The Theory of Evolution is essential in developing drug cocktails for HIV/AIDS, malaria and bacterial infections, as well as vaccines for influenza and devising effective strategies against pandemics. Many diseases are hereditary, and understanding their evolutionary history is often important to diagnosis and treatment. Indeed, pathogens often evolve to jump to humans from other animals. Furthermore, drugs (and procedures) are often tested on organisms that are closely related to humans by common descent, including (from near to far) apes, monkeys, mice, even sea urchins.

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Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 1981
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,11:58   

It looks like we can't listen to it now.  :-(  I wanted to hear what Barry and Mr. s. sound like (I already know what Denyse sounds like).

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4244
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,12:01   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Dec. 20 2008,12:58)
It looks like we can't listen to it now.  :-(  I wanted to hear what Barry and Mr. s. sound like (I already know what Denyse sounds like).

Barry actually has a quite natural, sort of bubbly and friendly radio presence. I was expecting a crystalline example of fatuous umbrage.

Keiths sounds straight out of SciFri. Calm, patient, articulate.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,12:16   

Quote (Zachriel @ Dec. 20 2008,17:56)
Quote
DonaldM: Today, I had the privilege to have lunch with a research scientist who works in the area of bio-pharmaceuticals for a pharmaceutical company.

DonaldM wants to make an appeal to authority, but the authority is unnamed.

Quote
DonaldM: To clarify, I said, “so the heuristic value of evolutionary theory to your biological research is….” and he answered “Nil!”.

The Theory of Evolution is essential in developing drug cocktails for HIV/AIDS, malaria and bacterial infections, as well as vaccines for influenza and devising effective strategies against pandemics. Many diseases are hereditary, and understanding their evolutionary history is often important to diagnosis and treatment. Indeed, pathogens often evolve to jump to humans from other animals. Furthermore, drugs (and procedures) are often tested on organisms that are closely related to humans by common descent, including (from near to far) apes, monkeys, mice, even sea urchins.

Speaking in my capacity as an authority in the pharmaceutical industry the esteemed colleague quoted by DonaldM is talking through his sweetly puckering arsehole. This anonymous chum of DonaldM's needs to quietly wander over to the biology dept in his company. Those chaps will put him right.

Oh sorry, you don't want to play duelling anonymous authorities? You want some evidence? I think Zachriel has supplied sufficient, thanks.

Please move along. Next moron please.

Louis

P.S. For the sensitive flowers amongst us, when the eternally benighted and drivelling hoardes of UD and their ideological ilk stop making poopy in the punchbowl, I'll play nice. Sound fair?

--------------
Bye.

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 235
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,12:45   

Quote (Louis @ Dec. 20 2008,08:50)
I'll join in if and when they miss something (highly unlikely) or if I feel I have a novel slant.

Louis

Would that be a slant to the left or the right?

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

  
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,12:51   

Denyse writes a post in defense of amateur science.  She mentions Forrest Mims as a great amateur success story (which he certainly is) and says
Quote
So, if you want a career in science, but don’t want to punch a clock for The Man, consider these folks your friends.

This is unnecessarily divisive.  Forrest Mims himself replies to Denyse:
Quote
A few Ph.D.s, as you may have noticed, are infected with an arrogance syndrome for which amateur science is a wonderful antidote. Some of these Ph.D.s have spent a career never going beyond their Ph.D. work. Serious amateurs are always going beyond their academic preparation, which is often nil.

Fortunately, most Ph.D.s are very supportive of amateur scientists, which is why SCIENCE invited the essay I wrote. In my career doing science only rarely have I been asked my degree (B.A. in government with minors in history and English). All that has mattered is my peer-reviewed publications and the instruments I’ve designed.

That's the great thing about science: anyone can submit their paper to a science journal.  It doesn't matter whether you have a degree: if your paper makes sense, it'll see the light of day.  

And while I am sympathetic to amateur scientists, I don't think studying under one is a great idea.  University provides an infrastructure that an individual amateur scientist, no matter how successful, does not have.  You have a community of scientists specializing in different subfields and you can learn different subjects from them.  

In the comments, Gil cites the development of Linux as an example of amateurs succeeding in computer programming.  I don't think it's a good example.  Linus Torvalds wasn't exactly an amateur, he was a student at the University of Helsinki, graduating with a master's degree in computer science.  The title of his master's thesis was Linux: A Portable Operating System.  Sure, some Linux developers were amateurs, but lots of others were professional programmers and students of computerr science working in their spare time.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 235
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,12:57   

Much is the want that Dave could still post on global warming. Oh what enflamed and tardinous rage we might enjoy this holiday season...

Obama Appoints Climate Change Experts via NYT.

Ice melting across globe at accelerating rate, NASA says via CNN

Other than info found at Wikipedia, does anyone know much about Jane Lubchenco? With Holdren and Lubchenco, I'm sensing a comforting lean towards Harvard.

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2598
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,16:35   

Quote
gpuccio: “Free will”: A property of the conscious intelligent I which intervenes between the input and the output of information into and from the consciousness, producing an objectively observable result (the output is not strictly and deterministically determined by the input) and a subjective perception that the I is “acting” and “choosing”.

So, free will is defined as not deterministic.

Quote
gpuccio: So the question is: are those kind of choices {computer} an expression of free will, and therefore a proof of compatibilism (free will occurring together with absolute determinism)?

Therefore compatibilism is false.

That was easy. Just define it that way. Most people define "free will" as doing what they want, making choices without coercion. If they like chocolate, they get to eat chocolate. That doesn't mean there isn't a physiological basis for why they like chocolate.

--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,18:30   

Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Dec. 20 2008,18:45)
Quote (Louis @ Dec. 20 2008,08:50)
I'll join in if and when they miss something (highly unlikely) or if I feel I have a novel slant.

Louis

Would that be a slant to the left or the right?

I haven't decided yet. It seems, from the other thread, that epistemology may rear its ugly head any day now. Unless our new Blueish playmate decides chemistry has special inductive issues, I'm not sure I can be seriously bothered.

Apathy: today I has it.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,18:52   

I really can't believe UD is still going after all these years.
Quote
Now, this is a research facility that is carrying on a huge number of projects across a number of areas in cellular biology, bio-chemistry, hemotology, oncology and other related areas. He said that evolution plays no role whatsoever in their research and that evolutionary theory doesn’t make one whit of difference to the outcome of any of their research projects and never has.  To clarify, I said, “so the heuristic value of evolutionary theory to your biological research is….” and he answered “Nil!”.

Perhaps its time to reconsider Dobzhansky’s famous quote.  How about “Nearly everything in biology makes sense apart from evolution.”  At least, that seems to be the case for real scientists working in real labs doing all sorts of fruitful research.


Because of what one guy told you? (furrowed brow of concern)

Woudn't it make more sense to actually, er, you know...
EAC code s76-ff WtF.
link

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
stevestory



Posts: 8956
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,19:06   

Quote (BWE @ Dec. 20 2008,19:52)
I really can't believe UD is still going after all these years.
Quote
Now, this is a research facility that is carrying on a huge number of projects across a number of areas in cellular biology, bio-chemistry, hemotology, oncology and other related areas. He said that evolution plays no role whatsoever in their research and that evolutionary theory doesn’t make one whit of difference to the outcome of any of their research projects and never has.  To clarify, I said, “so the heuristic value of evolutionary theory to your biological research is….” and he answered “Nil!”.

Perhaps its time to reconsider Dobzhansky’s famous quote.  How about “Nearly everything in biology makes sense apart from evolution.”  At least, that seems to be the case for real scientists working in real labs doing all sorts of fruitful research.


Because of what one guy told you? (furrowed brow of concern)

Woudn't it make more sense to actually, er, you know...
EAC code s76-ff WtF.
link

you can also find an auto mechanic who doesn't know newton's laws or thermodynamics. BFD.

   
AmandaHuginKiss



Posts: 150
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,22:03   

Hi first post. First post as well at UD. Awaiting moderation:

"

mandy

12/20/2008

10:47 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Hi, longtime lurker for my first post. One thing confuses me about dualism. I am no theologian but I learnt at School (Our Lady of the Sacred Heart) that according to the Bible that the personality does belong with the brain. I learnt that ghosts and spirits are just pagan notions that got picked up along the way (kind of like Christmas Trees and Easter eggs). If you read the Bible and according to tradition Jesus went bodily up to heaven, so did Mary. The Rapture etc all involves real physical bodies not souls.
If I’m wrong can somebody point me to the part of the Bible that has the personality being able to exist separately to the body?
"

  
stevestory



Posts: 8956
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,22:24   

You'll be awaiting moderation at UD, but your comment will easily go through here. That's how we roll.

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10244
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,22:26   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 20 2008,22:24)
You'll be awaiting moderation at UD, but your comment will easily go through here. That's how we roll.



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
AmandaHuginKiss



Posts: 150
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,22:37   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 20 2008,22:24)
You'll be awaiting moderation at UD, but your comment will easily go through here. That's how we roll.

Sorry I couldn't resist the handle as it does contain my first name. I didn't want to use it at UD as I thought that they will eventually get the Simpson's references.

So no mother jokes as I am one (Although, is that your real photo Louis? Nice hmmm.)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,23:02   

Quote (AmandaHuginKiss @ Dec. 20 2008,20:37)
Although, is that your real photo Louis? Nice hmmm.

No, it was ascertained a while ago that this is the real Louis:



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
AmandaHuginKiss



Posts: 150
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,23:07   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 20 2008,23:02)
Quote (AmandaHuginKiss @ Dec. 20 2008,20:37)
Although, is that your real photo Louis? Nice hmmm.

No, it was ascertained a while ago that this is the real Louis:


Here is my picture if you want to meet up

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,23:08   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 20 2008,20:26)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 20 2008,22:24)
You'll be awaiting moderation at UD, but your comment will easily go through here. That's how we roll.




"Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in!"



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Seizure Salad



Posts: 60
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,00:11   

Quote (olegt @ Dec. 20 2008,12:51)
That's the great thing about science: anyone can submit their paper to a science journal.  It doesn't matter whether you have a degree: if your paper makes sense, it'll see the light of day.  

Noam Chomsky used to say that the seriousness of an academic discipline can be measured by how much of a fuss is made over credentials. In the hard sciences, nobody cares what letters are beside your name as long as you have a creative and well evidenced idea; he cites personal anecdotes of being invited to speak at mathematics conferences even though, as a linguist, he has no formal mathematics training. His linguistic systems nonetheless make use of different kinds of math, and that's all that matters to the mathematics community.

The social sciences, on the other hand, are some kind of meritocratic nightmare. I can say this because I'm sadly embroiled in them.

(Whoa. I haven't posted here for a long time. I saw a copy of The Spiritual Brain in a local book store and figured I'd better browse this thread in order to pacify myself. It boggles my mind that UD still exists.)

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 235
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,01:32   

Quote (Louis @ Dec. 20 2008,17:30)
   
Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Dec. 20 2008,18:45)
   
Quote (Louis @ Dec. 20 2008,08:50)
I'll join in if and when they miss something (highly unlikely) or if I feel I have a novel slant.

Louis

Would that be a slant to the left or the right?

I haven't decided yet. It seems, from the other thread, that epistemology may rear its ugly head any day now. Unless our new Blueish playmate decides chemistry has special inductive issues, I'm not sure I can be seriously bothered.

Apathy: today I has it.

Louis

Please excuse my inept reach for blue-shaded humour.

I did not mean "slant" in a political, philosophical or intellectual sense, but a more juvenile one.

Like the "slant" Arden's mum might notice when you stand in front of her.

BTW, even minus pithy words, it's nice to see the TARD Hat back.

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1981
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,03:26   

Update on PaV
Quote


7

PaV

12/20/2008

9:47 am

Update on “microevolution”:

Wouldn’t you expect that base transitions would be of equal probability if “chance” is involved? Of course. Well, what has been found? Depending on the phyla, you get different, non-random base transition values; that is, A->T is not the same as C->G, G->C is different from C->G, etc, and these values vary depending on the phyla. This is wildly opposite what “random” processes would produce

Of course, there's no reason why "chance" has to be equal for all 4 bases.  Indeed, a more random process would be one in which the rates of change themselves were random.

Oh, and this is an update.  But how long have we known about this?

Quote
Additionally, in studying certain bacterial cultures in the lab, they have found that the allele frequency say, for example, glucose-to-galactose metabolism, never goes to zero. IOW, there is always some bacteria retaining the glucose metabolism allele even in an environment where only galactose is found. This completely negates population genetics wherein they say that in such a population the gene frequency will go to zero in 2N generations.


Ah, this must be a different population genetics.  The one I learned told me that the frequency of bacteria would equal the mutation rate.  This is classical Modern Synthesis stuff, worked out by Haldane.

Quote
Both these findings are possible because of cheaper methods of analyzing genomes. What other surprises are lurking?

I don't know.  Something new, like that was discovered after 1980, perhaps?

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Aardvark



Posts: 134
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,05:14   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 20 2008,22:26)
.



  
Advocatus Diaboli



Posts: 197
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,05:25   

I, for one, applaud PaV's daring venture into the world of biology. Maybe in 2009 PaV will skip straight into what researchers discovered in the 90's. UD is slowly but uncertainly cathing up with the rest of the world.

--------------
I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong.

"I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot

"Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova

"UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,05:31   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 20 2008,22:26)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 20 2008,22:24)
You'll be awaiting moderation at UD, but your comment will easily go through here. That's how we roll.


I thought we were about to get something u^mber and ma^lodorous. But, alas, this is Richard (HA HA):



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
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