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JohnW



Posts: 2296
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,16:50   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 30 2011,14:16)
Also find it interesting that you take into consideration "(complex) cultural, tribal and historical precedents" when discussing this issue, but when I state the same considerations when making my case that God is not immoral because of instances in ancient Israel where He commanded battle between tribes, you toss them off as not particularly relevant.

We're not the ones arguing that morality is invariant and comes from God, F.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
the_ignored



Posts: 50
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,17:04   

Also, we know that those tribes didn't have any god to help take care of their needs.  You people supposedly did.  So if not, why didn't he help them out to provide resources to help take care of say, the infants of the people their "god" told them to kill.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3592
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,17:10   

Quote
because of instances in ancient Israel where He commanded battle between tribes...


= genocide.

Men, women, children dogs, cats, baby bunnies, human fetuses, the whole nine yards.

Not because the Israelites had been wronged, or because they owned the real estate and had it stolen from them, but because they wanted it.

Like fucking bank robbers who rob banks because that's where the money is.

Now this was probably rather common at the time. people don't build walled cities because they admire the architecture.

The modern crime is to claim that this was actually ordered by god. Even worse, as some at UD claim, nothing is right or wrong until god says so.

So not only is "absolute" morality dependent on the changing and unpredictable whims of god, but it is dependent on the word of warlords and priests telling us what today's god talking points are.

And we know generals and  priests wouldn't ever lie.

--------------
Ēletís not make a joke of ourselves.Ē

Pat Robertson

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1058
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,17:19   

Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 30 2011,16:50)
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 30 2011,14:16)
Also find it interesting that you take into consideration "(complex) cultural, tribal and historical precedents" when discussing this issue, but when I state the same considerations when making my case that God is not immoral because of instances in ancient Israel where He commanded battle between tribes, you toss them off as not particularly relevant.

We're not the ones arguing that morality is invariant and comes from God, F.

But you see, poor Yahweh was a product of the culture that raised Him.  His parents taught him to keep slaves and order his creations to commit genocide.  It's society's fault.

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,17:44   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Aug. 31 2011,08:19)
Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 30 2011,16:50)
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 30 2011,14:16)
Also find it interesting that you take into consideration "(complex) cultural, tribal and historical precedents" when discussing this issue, but when I state the same considerations when making my case that God is not immoral because of instances in ancient Israel where He commanded battle between tribes, you toss them off as not particularly relevant.

We're not the ones arguing that morality is invariant and comes from God, F.

But you see, poor Yahweh was a product of the culture that raised Him. †His parents taught him to keep slaves and order his creations to commit genocide. †It's society's fault.

Exactly, the Jews were behaving pretty much the way everybody else was behaving at the time. King David was a cross between a Mafia boss and a mercenary.
You'd think if they were his chosen people, Yaweh would have at least taught them at least one thing that wasn't known by anybody else at the time.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2296
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,18:11   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Aug. 30 2011,15:44)
You'd think if they were his chosen people, Yaweh would have at least taught them at least one thing that wasn't known by anybody else at the time.

Well, he did tell them there'd been a global flood.  It came and went without anyone else even noticing.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,18:54   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 30 2011,22:16)
Quote
You are trying to pretend that homosexuality leads to paedophilia AGAIN.


Not sure what exactly you're alluding to in the first sentence. †If you are suggesting that I am stating that the specific acceptance of homosexuality alone will lead people to move on to pedophilia because it's in some way linked, then that is absolutely not the case I'm making. †There are many other sexually immoral acts that are not accepted that would strive for acceptance as well. †I'm throwing pedophilia out as an example. †Open the door, in other words....

 
Quote
False FTK. Sorry. If you don't believe this, then tour around Aegean sea of the times you mention and look at Sapphic worship, or the differences between Athenian and Spartan cultures. Or how homosexuality was treated in Persia. Your link, as usual misses the mark. It wasn't the simple fact of homosexuality (or its tolerance) that dictated the practises of that time and place, rather a series of (complex) cultural, tribal and historical precedents.



Also find it interesting that you take into consideration "(complex) cultural, tribal and historical precedents" when discussing this issue, but when I state the same considerations when making my case that God is not immoral because of instances in ancient Israel where He commanded battle between tribes, you toss them off as not particularly relevant.

1) Oh dear sainted trousers of Bunsen the Blessed. FTK you contradict yourself in one paragraph!

This:

Quote
If you are suggesting that I am stating that the specific acceptance of homosexuality alone will lead people to move on to pedophilia because it's in some way linked, then that is absolutely not the case I'm making.


Is contradicted by this:

Quote
I'm throwing pedophilia out as an example.  Open the door, in other words....


You are absolutely saying that IF we "open the door" to homosexuality (a sexually immoral act by your claim, as yet unproven, question evaded AGAIN), THEN this would lead to "opening the door" to "other sexually immoral acts" like paedophilia. This is not only untrue, it's logically fallacious (slippery slopes and all). But I digress.

This is an explicit claim by you that the acceptance of homosexuality leads to an acceptance of paedophilia. AGAIN.

You're also confusing both claims "acceptance of X leads to Y" and "X leads to Y". You're making two shitty arguments and switching between them as necessary.

As for snipping a line of mine out of context FTK, nice try, no dice. Read back, look at (for example) the post before it where I said:

Quote
Equating homosexuality with paedophilia, or putting homosexuality on some slippery sexual slope to "other sexual practises" like paedophilia, this is an absolute expression of hatred/homophobia. You are running together the consensual acts of adult homosexuals with the sexual exploitation/abuse of non-consenting (by definition), pre-pubescent minors.


Not sure what I'm alluding to? Are you actually serious? How can I be more explicit with you short of tattooing this to your face or perhaps flying a plane with a banner around your house.

2) Don't accuse ME of what OTHER people are doing. I haven't made any claim regarding the morality of your fictional deity. Nor have I claimed anything like culture being irrelevant to the conglomeration of illiterate Bronze Age sheepherder scribblings you venerate.

Au contraire, I happen to think the culture of the age is incredibly relevant, and interestingly one of the main reasons why your tawdry tome is so utterly IRRELEVANT today as anything resembling a major source of moral/ethical enlightenment. It is precisely a product of its times, FTK. THAT is the problem. Times, ethics, and morals have changed precisely because they are fluid and not fixed as you are attempting to claim.

Does it hurt when you metaphorically punch yourself in the face this much? Seriously, with enemies like you I have no need of friends.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,19:05   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,22:21)
Quote
Bullshit. †Ever read the Illiad? †The Oddesy? †The moral lessons in the Greek myths? † How about the viking myths? †No? †I'm not surprised.


Quite familiar with all. †Forgot to add this link earlier.

Carm?  Carm?  Seriously?  The earlier link to the tortured apologetics that redefined slavery was bad enough, but this...wow.  Carm is up there with AIG in terms of reality (hint - they ain't near it).  Why not link to some serious scholarship - you know, people who are interested in the truth, rather than making the facts fit their beliefs?

Oh, yeah.  I forgot.

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
JohnW



Posts: 2296
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,19:17   

Quote (Louis @ Aug. 30 2011,16:54)
Not sure what I'm alluding to? Are you actually serious? How can I be more explicit with you short of tattooing this to your face or perhaps flying a plane with a banner around your house.

Oooooh!

How much of a whip-round do you suppose we'd need to make this happen?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,19:19   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Aug. 30 2011,17:44)
Quote (Texas Teach @ Aug. 31 2011,08:19)
Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 30 2011,16:50)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 30 2011,14:16)
Also find it interesting that you take into consideration "(complex) cultural, tribal and historical precedents" when discussing this issue, but when I state the same considerations when making my case that God is not immoral because of instances in ancient Israel where He commanded battle between tribes, you toss them off as not particularly relevant.

We're not the ones arguing that morality is invariant and comes from God, F.

But you see, poor Yahweh was a product of the culture that raised Him. †His parents taught him to keep slaves and order his creations to commit genocide. †It's society's fault.

Exactly, the Jews were behaving pretty much the way everybody else was behaving at the time. King David was a cross between a Mafia boss and a mercenary.
You'd think if they were his chosen people, Yaweh would have at least taught them at least one thing that wasn't known by anybody else at the time.

But, Yahweh had to act that way (and command those acts) because he had to be able to act differently when Jesus came, so that people would know the real way...

seriously, I have heard this one.  Usually it is followed by the argument that YHVH couldn't do it earlier, that people weren't ready to accept Jesus yet (why not, weren't they taught the right way...ooops), or some similar rationalization.

re: morals written out in texts - of course, FTK ignores the corpus of Greek (as mentioned above), Egyptian, Sumerian (etc - Babylonian, Persian, Hittite, Ugaritic, etc), as well as all of the Eastern lands -Hindu and Buddhist texts (and philosophical schools), all the Chinese works, etc.  Claiming that the Bible, which utilizes similar themes found the world over, as the preeminent book of moral teachings is ludicrous (except for using it as a guide of what not to do).

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,19:24   

Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 30 2011,18:11)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Aug. 30 2011,15:44)
You'd think if they were his chosen people, Yaweh would have at least taught them at least one thing that wasn't known by anybody else at the time.

Well, he did tell them there'd been a global flood. †It came and went without anyone else even noticing.

Is that why the Egyptians built their pyramids while they were drowning in the Flood (and conveniently forgot to record it) - Yahweh didn't tell them it happened?

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,19:28   

Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 30 2011,19:17)
Quote (Louis @ Aug. 30 2011,16:54)
Not sure what I'm alluding to? Are you actually serious? How can I be more explicit with you short of tattooing this to your face or perhaps flying a plane with a banner around your house.

Oooooh!

How much of a whip-round do you suppose we'd need to make this happen?

We could pass the collection plate... :D

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,19:31   

Do you have more homosexual friends than I do, FTK? †And does that matter?

Once again you prove that you are completely incapable of analyzing a single thought, yours or anyone else's. †That you think you are a tolerant person in no way makes you a tolerant person.

You will know them by their acts....

Come on, luv, simple stuff.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,23:54   

Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 30 2011,19:28)
Quote (JohnW @ Aug. 30 2011,19:17)
Quote (Louis @ Aug. 30 2011,16:54)
Not sure what I'm alluding to? Are you actually serious? How can I be more explicit with you short of tattooing this to your face or perhaps flying a plane with a banner around your house.

Oooooh!

How much of a whip-round do you suppose we'd need to make this happen?

We could pass the collection plate... :D

I'll volunteer to deliver the banner; it's not out of my way.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Quack



Posts: 1788
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,02:56   

Isn't the history of Israel the history of semitic tribes/clans/families; nomads without a land to call their own, banding together as conquistadors, with a priesthood creating the appropriate myths?

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself ‚ÄĒ and you are the easiest person to fool.
¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†         Richard Feynman

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,07:10   

Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 31 2011,10:05)
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,22:21)
Quote
Bullshit. †Ever read the Illiad? †The Oddesy? †The moral lessons in the Greek myths? † How about the viking myths? †No? †I'm not surprised.


Quite familiar with all. †Forgot to add this link earlier.

Carm? †Carm? †Seriously? †The earlier link to the tortured apologetics that redefined slavery was bad enough, but this...wow. †Carm is up there with AIG in terms of reality (hint - they ain't near it). †Why not link to some serious scholarship - you know, people who are interested in the truth, rather than making the facts fit their beliefs?

Oh, yeah. †I forgot.

Wow I actually read that. What dishonest piece of wombat pooh.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,07:26   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Aug. 31 2011,07:10)
Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 31 2011,10:05)
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,22:21)
 
Quote
Bullshit. †Ever read the Illiad? †The Oddesy? †The moral lessons in the Greek myths? † How about the viking myths? †No? †I'm not surprised.


Quite familiar with all. †Forgot to add this link earlier.

Carm? †Carm? †Seriously? †The earlier link to the tortured apologetics that redefined slavery was bad enough, but this...wow. †Carm is up there with AIG in terms of reality (hint - they ain't near it). †Why not link to some serious scholarship - you know, people who are interested in the truth, rather than making the facts fit their beliefs?

Oh, yeah. †I forgot.

Wow I actually read that. What dishonest piece of wombat pooh.

Please provide evidence that the information in that link is incorrect.  I didn't originally find that at CARM.  It's standard knowledge.  CARM came up first in my search.  

Please provide evidence that it's a "dishonest piece of wombat pooh", or retract.  Thank you.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,07:50   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 31 2011,13:26)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Aug. 31 2011,07:10)
Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 31 2011,10:05)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,22:21)
Quote
Bullshit. †Ever read the Illiad? †The Oddesy? †The moral lessons in the Greek myths? † How about the viking myths? †No? †I'm not surprised.


Quite familiar with all. †Forgot to add this link earlier.

Carm? †Carm? †Seriously? †The earlier link to the tortured apologetics that redefined slavery was bad enough, but this...wow. †Carm is up there with AIG in terms of reality (hint - they ain't near it). †Why not link to some serious scholarship - you know, people who are interested in the truth, rather than making the facts fit their beliefs?

Oh, yeah. †I forgot.

Wow I actually read that. What dishonest piece of wombat pooh.

Please provide evidence that the information in that link is incorrect. †I didn't originally find that at CARM. †It's standard knowledge. †CARM came up first in my search. †

Please provide evidence that it's a "dishonest piece of wombat pooh", or retract. †Thank you.

<Announcement on the PA>

It's Wednesday, it's lunchtime, it's time for mockery!

</Announcement on the PA>

Awwwwwww isn't it cute when she imitates people with brains? Goooood fundy. Have a biscuit.

Now, who's up for seeing if she can be made to learn more complex tricks like "reading for basic comprehension", "internally consistent reasoning" and "intellectual honesty".

Louis

P.S. But seriously...standard knowledge? WTFROFLMAOBBQ and so on and so forth. I would point out that you appear to be using very different versions of "standard" and "knowledge" from what anyone with even a basic education would understand by those words. You wouldn't be, you know, frenetically googling nonsense to back up your prejudices now would you? No no. How churlish of me to even suggest it! Naughty naughty Louis etc. I'm off for my spanking.

P.P.S. Serious face: Familiarise yourself with the work of Hector Avalos, FTK. Just as a staring point. You may be amazed how nice he is.

--------------
Bye.

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,08:23   

Quote (Louis @ Aug. 31 2011,07:50)
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 31 2011,13:26)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Aug. 31 2011,07:10)
 
Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 31 2011,10:05)
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,22:21)
†  
Quote
Bullshit. †Ever read the Illiad? †The Oddesy? †The moral lessons in the Greek myths? † How about the viking myths? †No? †I'm not surprised.


Quite familiar with all. †Forgot to add this link earlier.

Carm? †Carm? †Seriously? †The earlier link to the tortured apologetics that redefined slavery was bad enough, but this...wow. †Carm is up there with AIG in terms of reality (hint - they ain't near it). †Why not link to some serious scholarship - you know, people who are interested in the truth, rather than making the facts fit their beliefs?

Oh, yeah. †I forgot.

Wow I actually read that. What dishonest piece of wombat pooh.

Please provide evidence that the information in that link is incorrect. †I didn't originally find that at CARM. †It's standard knowledge. †CARM came up first in my search. †

Please provide evidence that it's a "dishonest piece of wombat pooh", or retract. †Thank you.

<Announcement on the PA>

It's Wednesday, it's lunchtime, it's time for mockery!

</Announcement on the PA>

Awwwwwww isn't it cute when she imitates people with brains? Goooood fundy. Have a biscuit.

Now, who's up for seeing if she can be made to learn more complex tricks like "reading for basic comprehension", "internally consistent reasoning" and "intellectual honesty".

Louis

P.S. But seriously...standard knowledge? WTFROFLMAOBBQ and so on and so forth. I would point out that you appear to be using very different versions of "standard" and "knowledge" from what anyone with even a basic education would understand by those words. You wouldn't be, you know, frenetically googling nonsense to back up your prejudices now would you? No no. How churlish of me to even suggest it! Naughty naughty Louis etc. I'm off for my spanking.

P.P.S. Serious face: Familiarise yourself with the work of Hector Avalos, FTK. Just as a staring point. You may be amazed how nice he is.

I'm quite familiar with Hector.  Got a hold of one of his books a year or so ago.  He also visited my blog for a short time.  He can't refute the link I provided from CARM, as it's standard knowledge as I stated.

Find something I don't know about refuting it.  I'd be interested.  Thanks.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2153
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,08:41   

I wonder how many copies of Danielle Steele's novels are around. I bet they all agree with each other too.

Yawn.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,08:50   

OK, FtK, let's go

Quote
The New Testament is constantly under attack and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics.  But, if the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer.


Oh but wait, there's a major difference between the documents in these two sentences.  Can you guess what it is?

Hint: The new Testament is listed as a book, while the others are listed as authors.

Why don't you tell us all who wrote the Gospel According to John?  Oh wait, you can't because no one has a clue.

Quote
This is because the New Testament documents are better-preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writings.


Really, so Egyptian hieroglyphics should be even more reliable than biblical manuscripts.  There are certainly more of them and they are carved in stone, not wimpy ass papyrus.  Oh, and they are internally consistent too.

Quote
Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy... and they are very consistent.


There's another massively wrong statement (actually two) right there.

They COULD be cross-checked for accuracy.  But no one has successfully done so.  The books of the New Testament cannot be corroborated with other historical documents of the time.

While it is impossible to corroborate much of the things that happened because no one kept track of Jesus of Nazareth and Matthew and Titus and all those people, the major historical figures of the time can be matched up...

and the Bible fails miserably.  For example, Pontius Pilate was a complete and utter asshole, at least according to Josephus.  He offended everyone of any religion, he brutally suppressed a Samaritan uprising, etc, etc.  That really doesn't match the kind of cowardly lion version from the gospels.  

Likewise, the Roman census and such.  Placing the census of Quirinius (Luke 2:1) at the time of Herod (Matthew 2:1, Luke 1:5) is a just stupid.  

Josephus recorded the execution of forty-two people who had staged an unsuccessful revolt against the Idumean. Josephus recorded an eclipse of the moon that occurred during the night of this execution. This allows for precise astronomical calculations which sets the date of execution as March 13th 4 BCE. Now we are told that Herod died a few days after this execution, which makes his death around the second half of March 4 BCE.  (Craveri, The Life of Jesus: p61-63)

Josephus clearly states that the census took place thirty seven years after Caesar defeated Antony at Actium, which was fought on September 2, 31 BCE (another precise dating based on astronomy) based on our present system of reckoning. This means that census under Quirinius took place in the year AD6. We also know, from Roman sources, that Quirinius was legate (or governor) of Syria between Volusius Saturninus and Caecilius Creticus Silonus, which makes his tenure last for six years, from 6 to 12 CE. These dates are therefore consistent with Josephus' reckoning. (Guignebert, Jesus: p97-100)

So, within the New Testament there are massive contradictions with all other recorded history.  Yes, there are things that are correct.  Herod and Pilate did exist and they were in the positions claimed at the time.

This does NOT automatically make everything in the Bible 100% correct (as shown above).

Further: http://www.infidels.org/library....ns.html

This covers a huge list of contradictions ranging from simply who is Joseph's father to the simple FACT that Jesus (by God's previous decree) cannot be the messiah (Jesus is a 10th generation Moabite, who are forbidden to enter the temple by God).

I could go on and on.

In the first paragraph of your 'source' I found two major, fundamental errors (consistency and external accuracy) and a host of claims that don't mean a hill of beans to the accuracy of the New Testament.  We also see several fallacious arguments regarding this.

Hey FtK, if a million lemmings jumped off the bridge, would you do it to?  L. Ron Hubbards Dianetics has sold millions of copies, does that make it as accurate as the Bible?

Of course not, argument by numbers... same as the argument of the number of manuscripts of the New Testament.  If there was only ONE copy extant, but it is could be corroborated with other historical documents, then it would be more accurate than 5600 copies of documents that cannot be corroborated with other historical documents.

There you go.  I have little hope for the rest of the article, given the huge problems with the first paragraph.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,09:55   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 31 2011,14:23)
[SNIP]

I'm quite familiar with Hector. †Got a hold of one of his books a year or so ago. †He also visited my blog for a short time. †He can't refute the link I provided from CARM, as it's standard knowledge as I stated.

Find something I don't know about refuting it. †I'd be interested. †Thanks.

Really? Ah well you a) are bloviating as per usual you can't understand your own claims, let alone Avalos' ones I'm willing to bet, b) want us to do your homework for you as per usual (and Ogre has kindly started, enjoy!) and c) are ignoring the questions asked of your earlier in order to merrily Gish Gallop away to comfort zones about magic books.

If you haven't, by now, learned about the internal contradictions of the bible, why on earth would you listen to my repeating the work of relevant scholars on the matter? You don't listen or try to understand when it comes other, more scientific, topics (pause for your excuses to flood in) or even try to engage honestly, and they're far closer to my actual area of expertise. For the love of all that's pink and fluffy you can't even reason adequately. The stuff on CARM isn't even relevant to your claims, even if it IS true. You're arguing at the level of "Harry Potter mentions King's Cross Station. Kings Cross Station is real, therefore wizards are real".

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,11:11   

To Louis's point, and my earlier point, and the points of oldman, ogre, hermagoras, zachriel, and many others:

Ftk, now would be a good time to pick one (perhaps 2) of ogre's points from above and make a counter-argument.  As you have demonstrated an complete lack of understanding of these things, I'll help.

You could start with hieroglyphics.  Your claim, quoted by Ogre was that the NT is better preserved than any other ancient writings.  He countered this with the example of hieroglyphics.  You would need to address his specific concern and counter it with a relevant argument: there aren't that many hieroglyphics, hieroglyphics aren't well preserved, or even better, something that was true.

You should not ignore his entire post and then ramble about something unrelated.

Good luck.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,11:19   

Quote (blipey @ Aug. 31 2011,17:11)
To Louis's point, and my earlier point, and the points of oldman, ogre, hermagoras, zachriel, and many others:

Ftk, now would be a good time to pick one (perhaps 2) of ogre's points from above and make a counter-argument. †As you have demonstrated an complete lack of understanding of these things, I'll help.

You could start with hieroglyphics. †Your claim, quoted by Ogre was that the NT is better preserved than any other ancient writings. †He countered this with the example of hieroglyphics. †You would need to address his specific concern and counter it with a relevant argument: there aren't that many hieroglyphics, hieroglyphics aren't well preserved, or even better, something that was true.

You should not ignore his entire post and then ramble about something unrelated.

Good luck.

Oh Blipey! Why on earth would she do that? That would be an attempt at genuine intellectual endeavour and we all know that's not happening. After all who knows where that might take her?*

Louis

*Folsom Street Fair?** "Oh it's disgusting! It's perverted! Do it again!" {clutch pearls clutch pearls}.

**Because we all know that understanding, say, evolutionary biology, means that you will tolerate gays, then accept them, then become gay, and then it's a slippery slope from there to molesting kids and marrying horses.***

***Isn't FTK from the more rural areas of the USA where (if certain {cough} "reliable" news publications are to be believed) this happens all the time?

--------------
Bye.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,11:38   

Well, to be sure, Eastern Central Kansas is not a place one would like to be stuck forever, I should not totally vilify it* as I live a mere one hour drive away**.

*but I will

**albeit in Missouri, and an urban area where we only marry horses*** occasionally

***and only those of us who don't know**** that horses are one of 7 acceptable meats as revealed by Xenu

****is Scientology wrong?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,11:40   

Quote (blipey @ Aug. 31 2011,11:11)
To Louis's point, and my earlier point, and the points of oldman, ogre, hermagoras, zachriel, and many others:

Ftk, now would be a good time to pick one (perhaps 2) of ogre's points from above and make a counter-argument. †As you have demonstrated an complete lack of understanding of these things, I'll help.

You could start with hieroglyphics. †Your claim, quoted by Ogre was that the NT is better preserved than any other ancient writings. †He countered this with the example of hieroglyphics. †You would need to address his specific concern and counter it with a relevant argument: there aren't that many hieroglyphics, hieroglyphics aren't well preserved, or even better, something that was true.

You should not ignore his entire post and then ramble about something unrelated.

Good luck.

That's an excellent idea Blipey.

You claimed that no one could refute your linked to article.  I refuted the main point in about 4 paragraphs, with references.

It is now up to you to support your side of the article's arguments.  You can provide source (summarize please, not just links) that support the contentions of the article.

To summarize, here are the main points of the article and the points that I refuted, pick one or two and let's go.

1) Numbers of extant copies of ancient works are meaningful to verifying accuracy and validity (I claim, using an example and logic that this is not so).

2) The Bible is internally consistent (I claim, using examples and a link to many, many more that this is not so).

3) The Bible is corroborated by other historical documents (I claim that this is partially true, in that some things can be corroborated, but the majority (especially the major points) cannot and, indeed, are refuted by historical documents, examples and references given.)

Your turn.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,11:50   

My favorite insult in ancient Egyptian:

Snefo n srente n hooni.

Lit: Baboon's dick hair!

I used to be a hierogramat, in my younger days...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3335
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,11:56   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 31 2011,11:50)
My favorite insult in ancient Egyptian:

Snefo n srente n hooni.

Lit: Baboon's dick hair!

I used to be a hierogramat, in my younger days...

If you tell me you have a medical degree in neuroscience, I'm going to start calling you "Bukaroo"... and politely ask for a ride in the jet car.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,11:58   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 31 2011,17:56)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Aug. 31 2011,11:50)
My favorite insult in ancient Egyptian:

Snefo n srente n hooni.

Lit: Baboon's dick hair!

I used to be a hierogramat, in my younger days...

If you tell me you have a medical degree in neuroscience, I'm going to start calling you "Bukaroo"... and politely ask for a ride in the jet car.

Bwahahaha!!!

Buckaroo FTW!

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,12:03   

Quote (blipey @ Aug. 31 2011,17:38)
Well, to be sure, Eastern Central Kansas is not a place one would like to be stuck forever, I should not totally vilify it* as I live a mere one hour drive away**.

*but I will

**albeit in Missouri, and an urban area where we only marry horses*** occasionally

***and only those of us who don't know**** that horses are one of 7 acceptable meats as revealed by Xenu

****is Scientology wrong?

***** A triumph (The Daily Mash)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
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