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deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,12:17   

This is the †"FL PEANUT GALLERY" Thread


Here, people can make comments or raise issues †concerning the tentatively-agreed-on "FL Debate"

Anyone wishing to take part in the "FL Debate" thread can check here for relevant points that can be included in any posts.


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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,12:18   

FL's been around a while. This could be interesting.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,12:20   

I've seen several of these threads attempting to lure Creationists here for debates. Does it EVER work?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,12:24   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 09 2009,18:20)
I've seen several of these threads attempting to lure Creationists here for debates. Does it EVER work?

Not to my knowledge. Mind you, you've got to heave a lot of bricks before you hit a duck.

Louis

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Bye.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,12:41   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 09 2009,12:20)
I've seen several of these threads attempting to lure Creationists here for debates. Does it EVER work?

It might, this time, but yeah. Read the response I got here: http://pandasthumb.org/archive....-panels

Who knows.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,16:30   

But why would somebody want to hit a duck? That sounds daffy.

  
paragwinn



Posts: 409
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,18:06   

How 'ard could it be? Don' ald answer at once, for the day, see, is long. :p

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,20:45   

No, it won't be interesting at all.

FL is what I would label a "fucking moron."

Totally ignorant about science, history, biblical scholarship, math, geometry and, well, any subject.

He'll present the same stuff over and over and over.

Me:  2 + 3 = 5

FL:  No, 2 + 3 = 6.  Go read Dembski's book.  Read Behe's book.  Read every book in the Universe.  It's right there in print!

FL makes FtK look like ERV.  Seriously.

  
paragwinn



Posts: 409
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,21:22   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Sep. 09 2009,20:45)
FL makes FtK look like ERV. †Seriously.

Have the tard reserves expanded by an order of magnitude or two recently?

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2009,21:43   

Oops!  Sorry, Deadman, but I violated all your rules in a single posting.

However, "debate" with FL is a lost cause.  Been there, suffered through that.  Go out to the Kansas Citizens for Science Education blog for the Best of FL.

2 + 3 is still 6 I assure you!  And always will be, by God!

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,01:12   

Doc: Since FL hasn't bothered to make an appearance (despite some mighty strong words about willingness to debate), I hardly think it matters.   :O I'm *shocked*, though!

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,05:33   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Sep. 10 2009,02:45)
No, it won't be interesting at all.

FL is what I would label a "fucking moron."

Totally ignorant about science, history, biblical scholarship, math, geometry and, well, any subject.

He'll present the same stuff over and over and over.

Me: †2 + 3 = 5

FL: †No, 2 + 3 = 6. †Go read Dembski's book. †Read Behe's book. †Read every book in the Universe. †It's right there in print!

FL makes FtK look like ERV. †Seriously.

Oh I agree with you. I should have perhaps specified what I meant (and commonly mean) by my use of the word "interesting" in contexts such as this.

"Interesting" meaning an opportunity to be faced once again with a creationist exhibiting wilful, obdurate ignorance and stupidity and thus to ponder the nature of mental illness, how frighteningly common it is, all the while developing new and exciting insults.

Personally, I am so jaded by my experiences with specific types of creationist and other species of denialist moron that my enormous cynicism regarding communicating with them is unlikely to be easily overcome. However, I always leave room for hope. One day, one of them might be vaguely useful.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Dan



Posts: 77
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,06:19   

FL claims, on another thread, that he wants to use this forum to address the topic of whether

Evolution is Incompatible with Christianity

Since FL is posting claims not arguments, let me help him out with a very simple argument:

1. The Pope is a Christian.

2. The Pope holds that evolution happens.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_fa....en.html

3. Therefore, Evolution is compatible with Christianity.

A simple three-line proof.

FL now has only five options:

A. Contend that statement 1 is false.

B. Contend that statement 2 is false.

C. Contend that the reasoning deriving statement 3 from statements 1 and 2 is wrong.

D. Accept that statement 3 is true.

OR

E. Change the subject by saying something irrelevant like "Some of you boys have already experienced either the LOSS of your Christian faith, or at least a SERIOUS EROSION of your Christian faith. And your slide (your back-slide, that is) is partly or indirectly due to the impact of evolution-claims on your own beliefs."

Which will it be, FL?

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,06:24   

Oooh, ooh! *waves hand wildly* "E?"

Wait, wait, no..."A" AND "E"?

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,06:35   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 10 2009,07:12)
Doc: Since FL hasn't bothered to make an appearance (despite some mighty strong words about willingness to debate), I hardly think it matters. † :O I'm *shocked*, though!

Shocked and quite possible appalled?

Louis

P.S. Flabbergasted?

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Bye.

  
fusilier



Posts: 215
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,06:55   

Quote (Dan @ Sep. 10 2009,07:19)
FL claims, on another thread, that he wants to use this forum to address the topic of whether

Evolution is Incompatible with Christianity

Since FL is posting claims not arguments, let me help him out with a very simple argument:

1. The Pope is a Christian.

2. The Pope holds that evolution happens.

{snip}

Over on CARM, FL posts as "mellotron,"  where his most recent tactic has been to imply* he is black, and assert he knows "Darwinism => racism" when he sniffs it.

Most often, he says that the Pope really isn't a Christian - although some Catholics he knows might be.

Second, he will play word games to make it appear that Pius XII, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI didn't really say what we know they said.

Third, he will ignore multiple citations and links in order to repeat, after a few months, the same things, in the hope that other posters simply don't notice.





*Please note he's never actually said he is black, he just sets everyone up for the inference.

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,07:07   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 10 2009,06:35)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 10 2009,07:12)
Doc: Since FL hasn't bothered to make an appearance (despite some mighty strong words about willingness to debate), I hardly think it matters. † :O I'm *shocked*, though!

Shocked and quite possible appalled?

Louis

P.S. Flabbergasted?

Bewildered, befuddled, bewitched, bamboozled and bemused. By golly. Also gabberflasted

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 554
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,07:51   

Quote (fusilier @ Sep. 10 2009,07:55)
Quote (Dan @ Sep. 10 2009,07:19)
FL claims, on another thread, that he wants to use this forum to address the topic of whether

Evolution is Incompatible with Christianity

Since FL is posting claims not arguments, let me help him out with a very simple argument:

1. The Pope is a Christian.

2. The Pope holds that evolution happens.

{snip}

Over on CARM, FL posts as "mellotron," †where his most recent tactic has been to imply* he is black, and assert he knows "Darwinism => racism" when he sniffs it.

Most often, he says that the Pope really isn't a Christian - although some Catholics he knows might be.

While the Pope is clearly Christian, I would argue that he's no true Scotsman.

--------------
"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 554
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,07:53   

Quote (Dan @ Sep. 10 2009,07:19)
FL claims, on another thread, that he wants to use this forum to address the topic of whether

Evolution is Incompatible with Christianity

Since FL is posting claims not arguments, let me help him out with a very simple argument:

1. The Pope is a Christian.

2. The Pope holds that evolution happens.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_fa....en.html

3. Therefore, Evolution is compatible with Christianity.

A simple three-line proof.

FL now has only five options:

A. Contend that statement 1 is false.

B. Contend that statement 2 is false.

C. Contend that the reasoning deriving statement 3 from statements 1 and 2 is wrong.

D. Accept that statement 3 is true.

OR

E. Change the subject by saying something irrelevant like "Some of you boys have already experienced either the LOSS of your Christian faith, or at least a SERIOUS EROSION of your Christian faith. And your slide (your back-slide, that is) is partly or indirectly due to the impact of evolution-claims on your own beliefs."

Which will it be, FL?

Obviously you do not realize that FL, and only FL, shall determine who is a Christian and who is not.  What were you thinking?

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"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,10:24   

Quote (Dan @ Sep. 10 2009,12:19)
FL claims, on another thread, that he wants to use this forum to address the topic of whether

Evolution is Incompatible with Christianity

Since FL is posting claims not arguments, let me help him out with a very simple argument:

1. The Pope is a Christian.

2. The Pope holds that evolution happens.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_fa....en.html

3. Therefore, Evolution is compatible with Christianity.

A simple three-line proof.

FL now has only five options:

A. Contend that statement 1 is false.

B. Contend that statement 2 is false.

C. Contend that the reasoning deriving statement 3 from statements 1 and 2 is wrong.

D. Accept that statement 3 is true.

OR

E. Change the subject by saying something irrelevant like "Some of you boys have already experienced either the LOSS of your Christian faith, or at least a SERIOUS EROSION of your Christian faith. And your slide (your back-slide, that is) is partly or indirectly due to the impact of evolution-claims on your own beliefs."

Which will it be, FL?

I'd ask for definitions of three of the five words in the proposition "evolution is incompatible with christianity" before I even ventured an answer.

Possible answers include:

1) Yes

2) Some individuals seem to manage the cognitive dissonance just fine.

3) No

All depends on what you mean by "evolution", or "incompatible", or "christianity". I've yet to see many serious attempts at resolving this (or the large question of science being incompatible with religion) which don't equivocate on terms. In fact most of them equivocate so horrendously as to be vomit worthy.

Louis

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Bye.

  
paragwinn



Posts: 409
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,10:53   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 10 2009,10:24)
vomit worthy.

sig worthy?

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,11:31   

wow y'all be hatin on a brutha that don't even show up

deadman your link to comments went to the first page.  as there were 6, at least, I didn't read them all to find the pertinent one.  i just cant bear to come across some more blitherblather about ken miller and who so and so knows from high school or the  8th floor library mens bathroom.  

what did FL say?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,14:01   

Ras: on pg. 6 of that thread, "FL" said he'd start posting  here on Sunday Sept. 13. Can't blame you for not reading through it.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 554
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,15:41   

It's going to be AFDave Lite. †At best.

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"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
JohnK



Posts: 13
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,15:57   

Quote (Dan @ Sep. 10 2009,06:19)
FL now has only five options:
E. Change the subject by saying something irrelevant

FL's SOP.
With sometimes more than a dozen people replying, he can get away with it.
I suggest this thread be renamed the Peanut Gallery, but in addition to snark and asides, everyone post their serious responses here.
Then †create a "FL vs. AtBC debate" thread where one or a few people, deadman/eric/etc, condense the best responses and post once.
I.e. a single AtBC Borg collective response -- evasions pointedly noted. A thread one can link to later.

Quote (fusilier @ September 10)
FL will ignore multiple citations and links in order to repeat, after a few months, the same things, in the hope that other posters simply don't notice.

That's why a focused thread would be best, where his usual stunts are manifest and not lost in piles of clutter.
In fact, I suggest all serious AtBC creationists be treated this way.
†  
Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Sep. 10 2009,15:41)
It's going to be AFDave Lite.

A thread that went for 167 pages, which may never be read by anyone in its entirety again.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,16:03   

Quote (JohnK @ Sep. 10 2009,21:57)
Quote (Dan @ Sep. 10 2009,06:19)
FL now has only five options:
E. Change the subject by saying something irrelevant

FL's SOP.
With sometimes more than a dozen people replying, he can get away with it.
I suggest this thread be renamed the Peanut Gallery, but in addition to snark and asides, everyone post their serious responses here.
Then †create a "FL vs. AtBC debate" thread where one or a few people, deadman/eric/etc, condense the best responses and post once.
I.e. a single AtBC Borg collective response -- evasions pointedly noted. A thread one can link to later.

Quote (fusilier @ September 10)
FL will ignore multiple citations and links in order to repeat, after a few months, the same things, in the hope that other posters simply don't notice.

That's why a focused thread would be best, where his usual stunts are manifest and not lost in piles of clutter.
In fact, I suggest all serious AtBC creationists be treated this way.
† †  
Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Sep. 10 2009,15:41)
It's going to be AFDave Lite.

A thread that went for 167 pages, which may never be read by anyone in its entirety again.

Seconded. It'll make a nice change.

We'd need a thread moderator with either power to port posts or access to someone with that power.

And the willingness and time to do so of course.

Louis

ETA: I've yet to meet a serious creationist. They all eventually rely on the standard mendacity or mystery that typifies their mentality.

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Bye.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,16:47   

FL sings Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered.

Take it away FL!



After one whole thread of tard
Like a heat rash I return
With no more education
I've got lots of time to burn

Evolution's just a wet dream
It's enough to make me puke
Even though I'm fucking clueless
There's nothing I can't rebuke

REFRAIN

I'm back again
The same again
A simpering, whimpering tard again
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered am I

Couldn't learn
Wouldn't learn
But there's not a Darwinist book I wouldn't burn
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered am I

Lost my mind but what of it?
It doesn't make a diff
Go ahead, have a laugh
It just makes me stiff

A shill I am
But still I am
Batshit crazy and in love with Ham
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered
Am I

Vexed I am
Perplexed I am
I really want to have sex with Ham
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered
Am I

Wise at last (Kurt)
Eyes at last (Ham)
I'm cutting Darwin down to size at last
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered no more

Am I


(applause!)

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1056
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,17:14   

Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Sep. 10 2009,15:41)
It's going to be AFDave Lite. †At best.

Same great TARD taste.  Only half the brain damage?

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,17:23   

Bleh. Okay, I'm going to assume FL = male.

I'm responsible for inviting "FL" without having any real knowledge of †his track record at PT or CARM or wherever. I just saw him posting at PT and disrupting a thread I was interested in. I didn't know it was a "regular" irritant there and my intent was to find a decent chew-toy. I don't think this is it, but it might at least serve the purpose of keeping FL busy for a while. Maybe. I'm having real second thoughts after having read some of his claims and tactics.

My bad.

I agree on the "AFDave xtra-lite" assessment from OT (Occam's). It might still be possible to make this into an occasional diversion -- something vaguely interesting -- whenever people feel like whacking the mole.

I'll reiterate John and †Louis' †comments above: "FL" uses the usual cherry-picking response ploy -- preferring to respond to less-relevant questions/comments and refusing to deal with more †germane ones. I expect a Gish Gallop, and the full bag o' tricks creos usually bring: diversion, snark, irrelevancies and especially fallacy/illogic. Everyone's seen this shit before. †

So, the fewer "opposing posts" the better (preferably †a maximum of 2-3 per day? 1? ) There's a month to deal with this, by FL's "plan," so, that's plenty of time to simply pick through claims. I don't expect any real surprises; i.e. no real meat, but a lot of standard creo-gamesmanship.

Whoever posts TO FL should probably see if there's any interesting "peanut gallery " comments/points first, then put them together into as concise and compact a package as possible.

I don't think we can impose on Kristine or LouFCD to moderate much, so ...ahem...it's up to everyone to try to cooperate in using the Peanut Gallery and only post in the actual FL thread when you're sufficiently irritated or drunk, or have a killing thrust you want to personally apply.

I'm going to use a modified "Febble-Eric" approach with any FL posts I make: bullet points and stick to narrow crippling topics, forcing exploration of those finely-delimited points as much as possible. The syllogistic example of Dan's is a good starting point.

-----------------------------------

I can post at 10 AM PST daily. I'll take that responsibility, since I blame me for this potential (okay, certain) debacle, and so should everyone else. I'll still ask for comments and suggestions until the circus commences. After that, please get your comments/points in the PG (peanut Gallery) thread before 10 AM PST daily. Thanks and

Cheers!

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,17:55   

K, I just sent Lou a request to change this thread title to "FL debate Peanut Gallery." He's not feeling well , so I don't expect that  change to happen immediately.

I'll start up a "FL Debate Thread" on Sat., before FL posts on Sunday.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5379
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,19:42   

It's been changed. You're right about moderating though. I'm back in school for the semester, and I just won't have the time.

Plus, I'm not really interested in reading FL's nonsense. He's been posting the same lying bullshit at PT since I've been there (several years now), and I don't really have any interest in reading any more of it than I already have.

Though I've retired from full moderator status here, I still have the Buttůn de la Emeritus, and if someone sends me a PM I can move a comment to the BW if necessary on my next visit. Pick one person to be responsible for that. I'll move comments based on PMs from that one person.

I don't necessarily get to come here every day, so please be patient. School has to take priority, of course.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,19:56   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 10 2009,17:23)
Bleh. Okay, I'm going to assume FL = male.


Reasonable assumption, seems like.

† †  
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 10 2009,17:23)
I'm responsible for inviting "FL" without having any real knowledge of †his track record at PT or CARM or wherever. I just saw him posting at PT and disrupting a thread I was interested in. I didn't know it was a "regular" irritant there and my intent was to find a decent chew-toy.

FL at KCFS

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,20:44   

Oi, this is not good. I tended to avoid the whole Kansas thing since it wasn't my state, but I donated through the ACLU as I've been doing for a while.

CARM...Hah, I never joined up there because I met Matt Slick on Yahoo chat eons ago and he really, really didn't like me. The feeling was mutual, so I didn't bother -- but I did watch CARM morph into the creature it is. I just didn't read it after a while.

And PT...I have a bad habit of not reading a lot of comments, so I just didn't see "FL" much. I also mentally blot out creo posts when I do see them, most of the time.

It's like a perfect storm of stupid on my part. Oh, well.

All of FL's KCFS posts are here, if you want to lose neurons: http://www.kcfs.org/forums....art=525† (thank you, csadams).

I need a time machine. This is indeed an odious critter.

LouFCD: no worries, I'll make a point of not bugging you at all, classes are way more important.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,21:36   

Well, we are talking about somebody who "defends" Christianity by announcing that it's incompatable with a strongly-supported evidence based conclusion about how nature works. May nobody see fit to "defend" me in such a manner.

Henry

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1014
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,21:37   

When I follow the link to KCFS I get "No topics or posts met your search criteria"

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2009,21:48   

afarensis: damn, yeah. I thought my link worked, but †when I dumped my cache, it linked to what you stated. Let's see if this works: †http://www.kcfs.org/forums/search.php?search_author=FL

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
fusilier



Posts: 215
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,06:49   

Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Sep. 10 2009,08:51)
{snip}
While the Pope is clearly Christian, I would argue that he's no true Scotsman.

<churchlady voice>
Of course not, the current one is German, the previous one was Polish, and before that they were pretty much all Italian.
</voice>
Dunno whether any of 'em liked oatmeal for breakfast, though.

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 554
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,07:32   

Quote (fusilier @ Sep. 11 2009,07:49)
 
Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Sep. 10 2009,08:51)
{snip}
While the Pope is clearly Christian, I would argue that he's no true Scotsman.

<churchlady voice>
Of course not, the current one is German, the previous one was Polish, and before that they were pretty much all Italian.
</voice>
Dunno whether any of 'em liked oatmeal for breakfast, though.

And does the Pope wear underwear under his kilt dress?

--------------
"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,08:33   

"FL" also posts on numerous boards as "Mellotron".

He supposedly has a background in journalism, but if you are familiar with his antics, it seems more of a FOX news type of yarn-spinning ideologue.

He has a tendency to hunt the net to find a single person who has written something that he can construe as supporting his position and then presents this person's ideas as the ultimate truth on the matter, and no matter how much evidence is presented overturning his claims, he will not yield.

He has, for example, taken an out of context quote from Jon Oro that he uses to imply that biological evolution INCLUDES abiogenesis.  When it is pointed out that Oro was referring to the CONCEPT of evolution (change over time), not the theory of evolution, he simply restates his original claims and claims victory.

In short, he is a hero-worshipping, ignorant, obstinate, classic Dunning-Kruger poster boy, YEC dimwit hack.

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,09:29   

I've been wondering, having been involved in discussions on PT with FL whether the moniker stands for Fringe Lunatic. Seriously...he is one odd thinking soul.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Jasper



Posts: 76
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,10:23   

"FL" are the initials of "Floyd A. Lee," a resident of Topeka, Kansas. He outed himself years ago on PT.

Interestingly, here's an old article from the Topeka Capitol Journal written by someone named Floyd Lee. †I wonder if it was the same FL?

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,10:24   

Quote (SLP @ Sep. 11 2009,09:33)
"FL" also posts on numerous boards as "Mellotron".

He supposedly has a background in journalism, but if you are familiar with his antics, it seems more of a FOX news type of yarn-spinning ideologue.

He has a tendency to hunt the net to find a single person who has written something that he can construe as supporting his position and then presents this person's ideas as the ultimate truth on the matter, and no matter how much evidence is presented overturning his claims, he will not yield.

He has, for example, taken an out of context quote from Jon Oro that he uses to imply that biological evolution INCLUDES abiogenesis. †When it is pointed out that Oro was referring to the CONCEPT of evolution (change over time), not the theory of evolution, he simply restates his original claims and claims victory.

In short, he is a hero-worshipping, ignorant, obstinate, classic Dunning-Kruger poster boy, YEC dimwit hack.

that's quite a string!  I am impressed.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
mammuthus



Posts: 13
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,10:38   

Quote (SLP @ Sep. 11 2009,08:33)
"FL" also posts on numerous boards as "Mellotron".

Yes, see this brief discussion with Per Ahlberg on the subject of tetrapod evolution that I instigated:

http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?p=205071#post205071

  
JohnW



Posts: 2293
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,11:35   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 10 2009,19:36)
Well, we are talking about somebody who "defends" Christianity by announcing that it's incompatable with a strongly-supported evidence based conclusion about how nature works. May nobody see fit to "defend" me in such a manner.

Henry

I was thinking the same thing myself.  I suppose if you can demonstrate that your religion is incompatible with reality, you've shown that your faith is really, really strong.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,11:56   

Quote (Jasper @ Sep. 11 2009,10:23)
"FL" are the initials of "Floyd A. Lee," a resident of Topeka, Kansas. He outed himself years ago on PT.

Interestingly, here's an old article from the Topeka Capitol Journal written by someone named Floyd Lee. †I wonder if it was the same FL?

And a list of his articles:

http://findarticles.com/p....Journal


I wonder if they know how much of a dishonest dork he is there in Toe -PEEEK -uh....

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,12:18   

Quote (mammuthus @ Sep. 11 2009,10:38)
Quote (SLP @ Sep. 11 2009,08:33)
"FL" also posts on numerous boards as "Mellotron".

Yes, see this brief discussion with Per Ahlberg on the subject of tetrapod evolution that I instigated:

http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?p=205071#post205071

Ah, dammit, I recall reading that thread. Hell, I put in a meaningless "humorous" post in it, but completely erased (or utterly ignored) the link of Mellotron with FL.

I'd completely forgotten that "Fastnet" moniker, too. I plead senility or something.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,13:29   

Quote (Jasper @ Sep. 11 2009,10:23)
"FL" are the initials of "Floyd A. Lee," a resident of Topeka, Kansas. He outed himself years ago on PT.

Interestingly, here's an old article from the Topeka Capitol Journal written by someone named Floyd Lee. †I wonder if it was the same FL?

Yes, I was being facetious. I knew he identified himself at one point, but couldn't remember his name. Still, you have to admit that  "Fringe Lunatic"  fits.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,13:59   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 10 2009,17:42)
Though I've retired from full moderator status here,

If you've retired & Teve Tory is MIA, who's wielding the power of life & death here now? Kristine?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:02   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 11 2009,19:59)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 10 2009,17:42)
Though I've retired from full moderator status here,

If you've retired & Teve Tory is MIA, who's wielding the power of life & death here now? Kristine?

Angling for a promotion?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:16   

If I am chosen as moderator, my first act will be to ban Louis. My second act will be to disemvowel all K.E.'s posts, on the theory that they should then make much more sense. Having done that, I will immediately resign.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:23   

Moderatley good moderators:

RBIll
Bob O
Zach
Alan Fox
Oleg
lose Von Kannon
Deadman932
sasanfrancis

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JohnW



Posts: 2293
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:37   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 11 2009,12:23)
Moderatley good moderators:

RBIll
Bob O
Zach
Alan Fox
Oleg
lose Von Kannon
Deadman932
sasanfrancis

Isn't there some guy in Texas with a floating command centre?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:38   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 11 2009,14:23)
Moderatley good moderators:

RBIll
Bob O
Zach
Alan Fox
Oleg
lose Von Kannon
Deadman932
sasanfrancis


Yesss, YESSsss, my pretties. Place my name in consideration for king universal overlord moderator.

I promise that you'd not be disappointed by my reign -- for I would rule with an IRON FIST

BWAHAHAHA!!shift1!!

P.S. I'd refuse because I dislike moderating.  It's too much work, and a thankless task. Plus I'd have to put up with you lot, which wouldn't last too damn long, let me tell you.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:39   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 11 2009,14:37)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 11 2009,12:23)
Moderatley good moderators:

RBIll
Bob O
Zach
Alan Fox
Oleg
lose Von Kannon
Deadman932
sasanfrancis

Isn't there some guy in Texas with a floating command centre?



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:39   

Evilutionists arguing over moderation? WATERLOO!!!11!!

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:41   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 11 2009,14:38)
P.S. I'd refuse because of the above tendency towards absolute monarchy. Plus I dislike moderating.

I only put you on the list as the token HOMO/mincer candidate.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,14:52   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 11 2009,14:41)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 11 2009,14:38)
P.S. I'd refuse because of the above tendency towards absolute monarchy. Plus I dislike moderating.

I only put you on the list as the token HOMO/mincer candidate.

HAHA, I changed my post, now don't you look silly.



--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,15:01   

Oh, so instead of Waterloo, it's Doom's Day?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,15:03   

HAR HAR THIS IS YOU:



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Jasper



Posts: 76
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,15:11   

Quote (Robin @ Sep. 11 2009,14:29)
 
Quote (Jasper @ Sep. 11 2009,10:23)
"FL" are the initials of "Floyd A. Lee," a resident of Topeka, Kansas. He outed himself years ago on PT.

Interestingly, here's an old article from the Topeka Capitol Journal written by someone named Floyd Lee. †I wonder if it was the same FL?

Yes, I was being facetious. I knew he identified himself at one point, but couldn't remember his name. Still, you have to admit that †"Fringe Lunatic" †fits.

IMO, he has also earned the moniker "Flagrant Liar."

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,15:42   

just for gits and shiggles here is a nearly equally stupid comment on the very same thread

tard

I've almost quit reading the comments at PT over that doosh

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,17:56   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 11 2009,15:42)
just for gits and shiggles here is a nearly equally stupid comment on the very same thread

tard

I've almost quit reading the comments at PT over that doosh

FL gets absolutely nailed (esp. by csadams and Dan) making blatantly false claims.

The weird, hilarious, and possibly creepy thing is that this doesn't phase FL in the least.

Personally, I can't imagine saying (1) "this book says 'X' and makes no mention of 'Y,' " then (2) getting that proven false...and then (3) sauntering back in the thread as if nothing happened.

That would be completely outside of my ethical/moral ken to even engage in (1) without good certainty based on closely reading the actual text. †And yet, FL doesn't even blink an eye, metaphorically speaking. It's AFDave, jr.

Day-um.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1014
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,19:18   

After wading through some of the threads on FL that y'all have linked to, I vote that we send Richardthugs 'round to give deadman 932 a good spankin' or something.  :p

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,19:49   

Quote (afarensis @ Sep. 11 2009,19:18)
After wading through some of the threads on FL that y'all have linked to, I vote that we send Richardthugs 'round to give deadman 932 a good spankin' or something. †:p



Seriously, though: It's not really my fault. I didn't know and if I did, I didn't mean to. Plus there were extenuating circumstances. Society. Uh, I felt unloved as a child. I was possessed by spirits. Aliens. Yeah, that's it. Space demons. Satanic space demons controlled my brain.

Anyway, <Homer> sure I'm flattered, maybe even a little curious. But the answer is no!</Homer>

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,19:58   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 11 2009,17:56)
The weird, hilarious, and possibly creepy thing is that this doesn't phase FL in the least.

Personally, I can't imagine saying (1) "this book says 'X' and makes no mention of 'Y,' " then (2) getting that proven false...and then (3) sauntering back in the thread as if nothing happened.

The dissonance seems to be SOP for those who are so used to denying reality.

As far as spanking deadman goes . . . um, why are you wanting to reward him? †:p

--------------
Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1014
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,20:21   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 11 2009,19:49)
Quote (afarensis @ Sep. 11 2009,19:18)
After wading through some of the threads on FL that y'all have linked to, I vote that we send Richardthugs 'round to give deadman 932 a good spankin' or something. †:p



Seriously, though: It's not really my fault. I didn't know and if I did, I didn't mean to. Plus there were extenuating circumstances. Society. Uh, I felt unloved as a child. I was possessed by spirits. Aliens. Yeah, that's it. Space demons. Satanic space demons controlled my brain.

Anyway, <Homer> sure I'm flattered, maybe even a little curious. But the answer is no!</Homer>

You have been forgetting to wear your tinfoil hat again haven't you?

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,21:47   

Quote
You have been forgetting to wear your tinfoil hat again haven't you?

Well, at least he wasn't foiled again?

Henry

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2009,22:17   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 11 2009,21:47)
 
Quote
You have been forgetting to wear your tinfoil hat again haven't you?

Well, at least he wasn't foiled again?

Henry

Reminds me of the famous detective Gully Foyle, who was once investigating the mysterious suicide of a philosophy grad student.

Oddly, it seemed the young man had literally choked to death -- by eating pages of a class text he'd been reading.

It was Gully's faithful assistant, Guido, who reached a prying finger into the dead man's throat, dug out a chewed page and discovered the awful truth:

"All Hume in 'im, Foyle," he said.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
jswilkins



Posts: 50
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2009,00:31   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 12 2009,13:17)
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 11 2009,21:47)
†  
Quote
You have been forgetting to wear your tinfoil hat again haven't you?

Well, at least he wasn't foiled again?

Henry

Reminds me of the famous detective Gully Foyle, who was once investigating the mysterious suicide of a philosophy grad student.

Oddly, it seemed the young man had literally choked to death -- by eating pages of a class text he'd been reading.

It was Gully's faithful assistant, Guido, who reached a prying finger into the dead man's throat, dug out a chewed page and discovered the awful truth:

"All Hume in 'im, Foyle," he said.

"All Hume in ee-im, Foyle"...

--------------
Boldly staying where no man has stayed before.

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2009,00:41   

Furriners & †their language abuse.

I was tyred and didn't have "look up variant pronunciations" on my shed-duel.

Y'all should learn up on real American, dammit. And don't you try and start in on me, Louis, you Lobsterback. I'll sic the colonials on you.

Edit: my lousy attempt at humor aside -- does anyone know where the final "i" sound in "al-u-min-i-um" disappeared to in American english "alu-min-um" ?

Can we buy a vowel back? I'll haved to consult H.L. Mencken.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2009,16:50   

Quote
The different American spelling of what British English spells 'aluminium' sometimes cause puzzlement as to how it could have come about. This article tells that story.


--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein †(H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1014
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2009,17:31   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Sep. 12 2009,16:50)
Quote
The different American spelling of what British English spells 'aluminium' sometimes cause puzzlement as to how it could have come about. This article tells that story.

I prefer Darwin's explanation.
Quote
Rudimentary organs may be compared with the letters in a word, still retained in the spelling, but become useless in the pronunciation, but which serve as a clue in seeking for its derivation.


Which, if I understand him correctly, means that the British insert extra letters into words because they have rudimentary organs*



* The possibility that I may have misinterpreted Darwin should be kept in mind. I doubt it, but anything is possible.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2009,22:21   

Oi, this ("debate" crap)  has all the makings of a debacle. I should learn to keep me big mouth shut.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2009,23:08   

Three pages? This is like a weekend-long birthday party for someone who never shows up.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1014
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,00:08   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 12 2009,22:21)
Oi, this ("debate" crap) †has all the makings of a debacle. I should learn to keep me big mouth shut.

Tard pimp, you're doing it wrong* :p


* If that was on a LoL cat this thread could die a happy death...

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,00:31   

So, about that biblical perspective on biology:

How many legs does an insect have?

Does a rabbit (or close relative of such) chew a cud?

Do bats have feathers?

Do snakes talk?

Do donkeys talk?

Can a dove find a fresh grown leaf in an area that's been under water for many months?

Can a large sea creature swallow somebody without digesting them?

  
Quack



Posts: 1784
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,04:33   

I am afraid you have painted yourself into a corner you can't get out of without, well, you know what I mean.

I agree with what was said here, but I had been hoping that there would be some agreement about eligible topics. My chin dropped however at reading † † † † †
Quote
Sincere thanks to all who provided input regarding topics.

Is this what you wanted?

ETA: At my "fairest in the land" ritual, my mirror gasped "as fair as ever, but what in the world happened to your jaw?"

--------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself ‚ÄĒ and you are the easiest person to fool.
¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†         Richard Feynman

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5379
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,07:56   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 12 2009,23:21)
Oi, this ("debate" crap) †has all the makings of a debacle. I should learn to keep me big mouth shut.

While the argument with the lying dirtbag holds no interest for me whatever, I'd be interested to know about your original motivation. What was the point of this?

(I apologize if that sounds in any way harsh or hostile, it's not meant to be. I'm genuinely curious.)

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Keelyn



Posts: 40
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,12:29   

He (FL) probably will not even reply, anyway. Nine months from now he will post an explanation (lie) or an excuse (lie) of how he was distracted or too busy or forgot. If so, I will be a little disappointed - I sort of enjoy seeing FL get kicked around like a soccer ball.

--------------
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. -- Wolfgang Pauli

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. -- Mark Twain

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,15:24   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 13 2009,07:56)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 12 2009,23:21)
Oi, this ("debate" crap) †has all the makings of a debacle. I should learn to keep me big mouth shut.

While the argument with the lying dirtbag holds no interest for me whatever, I'd be interested to know about your original motivation. What was the point of this?

(I apologize if that sounds in any way harsh or hostile, it's not meant to be. I'm genuinely curious.)

Lou: I'd already written a semi-"explanation" (mea culpa) earlier in this thread ;
 
Quote
Bleh. Okay, I'm going to assume FL = male.

I'm responsible for inviting "FL" without having any real knowledge of his track record at PT or CARM or wherever. I just saw him posting at PT and disrupting a thread I was interested in. I didn't know it was a "regular" irritant there and my intent was to find a decent chew-toy. †I don't think this is it, but it might at least serve the purpose of keeping FL busy for a while. Maybe. I'm having real second thoughts after having read some of his claims and tactics. †(from here )


On reflection, I'd imagine that part of what puzzles you is that you already have a good working knowledge of "FL" from the Kansas episode, PT, or both and more.

I didn't really have that same prior knowledge that you do. I was reading the comments here on RBH's write-up regarding the "bloggingheads' faux pas. I normally don't bother reading comments at PT.

I saw a troll and pointed out that there's a whole forum for the kind of "debate" it was engaging in. That's really the sum of it.
--------------------

The thing is that there's a LOT of trolls everywhere, on every anti-creo or pro-science forum I read stuff at. I generally don't read a lot of comments at EVERY site, and I tend to filter out trolls. Hell, I'd seen FL as "Mellotron " at Talk Rat and even posted in the same thread it was infesting...and had no clue it was "FL."

Let's use Pharyngula as example. Lots of people read it, but in different ways. I rarely read through the comments -- but that's where the trolls dwell. Regular readers/posters ("regs") might *know* who the trolls are and might know/remember many of their names. I don't.    

Similarly, I could easily imagine someone encountering "smooth operator" at Talk Rat and saying "hey why don't you debate that crap in the proper setting?" Or AFDave. Or Ray Martinez. They're not all exactly equivalent trolls, but they are all trolls, just the same. If you didn't know their track record and M.O. you'd find yourself in the same embarassing position I'm in.

What I learned out of this was to not be so quick to "invite" and to check the track record first.

I can understand a genuine perplexity on your part (as a mod or "reg") when you KNOW the troll in question. I just didn't do my homework and as I said in another post, this was a "perfect storm of stupid on my part."

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,15:37   

So does this mean we can go back to drinking heavily and mocking the Arden/RTH/Carlson menage a horse?

If so: Excellent!

I propose vodka shots for every "HAR HAR this is you" and skulling a full beer for every LOLCat.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,15:48   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 13 2009,15:37)
So does this mean we can go back to drinking heavily and mocking the Arden/RTH/Carlson menage a horse?

If so: Excellent!

I propose vodka shots for every "HAR HAR this is you" and skulling a full beer for every LOLCat.

Louis

HA HA, THIS IS U †:


--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1006
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,17:36   

There is no debate.

There is only mock.

The fact that FL can generate 3 pages of mocking WITHOUT EVEN FUCKING SHOWING UP is BRILLIANT.

(that took a lot of caps-on/caps-off work so appreciate it, please!)

I hear Louis is buying vodka shots.  I'm in.  Srsly.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5379
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,17:58   

Gotcha, Deadman. I didn't catch the whole lack of background thing, though I probably should have.

Carry on with the vodka shots!

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5379
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,18:02   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Sep. 13 2009,18:36)
There is no debate.

There is only mock.

Indeed, though lately I'm pretty much over even that. I only have time for the one-fingered salute with a hearty "Fuck off, TARD". On a patient day, I might add, "Read a book, moron."

Patient days are coming fewer and farther between, however.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,20:46   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 13 2009,13:48)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 13 2009,15:37)
So does this mean we can go back to drinking heavily and mocking the Arden/RTH/Carlson menage a horse?

If so: Excellent!

I propose vodka shots for every "HAR HAR this is you" and skulling a full beer for every LOLCat.

Louis

HA HA, THIS IS U †:

Let me fix that:

HAR HAR THIS IS LOUIS:



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,21:36   

Arden : You heartless bastard. Louis is my FRIEND, I'll have you know.

As such, I demand grateful recognition of his unsurpassed amateur mycological skillz, which he is obviously employing in that very photo -- as he combs the soil intently for new fungal-based antibiotic cures to benefit all mankind !!1!moldy!11!!

How DARE you, sir.

ETA:  

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2009,22:35   

And all of this has what to do with the serious debate for which this thread was intelligently designed?

What?

Oh.

Never mind.

Henry

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,01:15   

Well, hello there!  My apologies; it's 12:35 am CST, and I'd meant to be logged in at least an hour or two ago.  

So this is the legendary AtBC, hmm!  Looks like a most interesting saloon in which to conduct a gunfight....

And sincere thanks to Deadman for setting this up.

***

Brief recap:  From tonite through Sun Nov 1, I will be explaining and defending the overall topic "Evolution Is Incompatible With Christianity" (including an emphasis on "the biblical perspective on biology").
followed afterwards by explaining and defending the overall topic "The ID Hypothesis is Science and should therefore be taught in Public School Science Classrooms.".  

Mostly I'll be posting and responding at night, but sometimes in the daytime too.  By Nov. 1, my intention is to be finished discussing both topics.  

Btw, I couldn't help but smile at Doc Bill's comment:

Quote
The fact that FL can generate 3 pages of mocking WITHOUT EVEN FUCKING SHOWING UP is BRILLIANT.


Sounds like we all gonna have some fun up in here!  

:)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,02:24   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 14 2009,03:36)
[SNIP]

...as he combs the soil intently for new fungal-based antibiotic cures to benefit all mankind !!1!moldy!11!!

[/SNIP]

Well at least THAT is true.

It just so happens I am checking for useful secondary metabolite producing soil organisms whilst pissed as a mattress?

Multitasking: I can does it.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,02:26   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 14 2009,00:02)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Sep. 13 2009,18:36)
There is no debate.

There is only mock.

Indeed, though lately I'm pretty much over even that. I only have time for the one-fingered salute with a hearty "Fuck off, TARD". On a patient day, I might add, "Read a book, moron."

Patient days are coming fewer and farther between, however.

I've noticed the same tendency in myself. Are we getting old?

Anyway, back to the reason for the season....

{Hands round vodka shots}

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,02:30   

Hi Floyd. †Let me be the first to welcome you to teh swamp. †As you can probably tell, you've wandered in to the bar across the street from the debate hall. †The clientele have mostly passed out on the floor, and won't be awake to nurse their hangovers until about noon or so.
†Deadman has set up a proper forum for you here, and will try to keep the riffraff out, or at least up in the peanut gallery/nosebleed seats.
†Don't let the occasional "YOU LIE!!!!111!!!" from the ruffians in the peanut gallery throw you off script.
†Let the showww begin!

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein †(H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,02:31   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,07:15)
Well, hello there! †My apologies; it's 12:35 am CST, and I'd meant to be logged in at least an hour or two ago. †

So this is the legendary AtBC, hmm! †Looks like a most interesting saloon in which to conduct a gunfight....

And sincere thanks to Deadman for setting this up.

***

Brief recap: †From tonite through Sun Nov 1, I will be explaining and defending the overall topic "Evolution Is Incompatible With Christianity" (including an emphasis on "the biblical perspective on biology").
followed afterwards by explaining and defending the overall topic "The ID Hypothesis is Science and should therefore be taught in Public School Science Classrooms.". †

Mostly I'll be posting and responding at night, but sometimes in the daytime too. †By Nov. 1, my intention is to be finished discussing both topics. †

Btw, I couldn't help but smile at Doc Bill's comment:

Quote
The fact that FL can generate 3 pages of mocking WITHOUT EVEN FUCKING SHOWING UP is BRILLIANT.


Sounds like we all gonna have some fun up in here! †

:)

Welcome FL, if you are who you say you are.

After all, if creationist internet posters didn't exist it would be necessary to invent them.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,02:31   

So, why should we start off with an honest, extended discussion/debate of "Evolution Is Incompatible With Christianity"?

Because, first and foremost, that's the truth, as we shall see. †

Secondly, because of the damage that evolution is doing to the faith of Christians (in some cases, former faith, as it has already been lost). †
Evolution erodes and corrodes Christian faith. †Poisonously so. †Daniel Dennett was right: evolution is "The Universal Acid."

No, evolution is not always the entire gig of why people lose their faith (after all, you're talking about an entire constellation of causes there).

But evolution clearly seems to grease that overall slide downward. †It's a contributing corrosive factor, and it keeps on popping up in various personal testimonies. †Here's two examples.

† † †  
Quote
"As were many persons from Alabama, I was a born-again Christian. †When I was fifteen, I entered the Southern Baptist Church with great fervor and interest in the fundamentalist religion. †I left at seventeen when I got to the University of Alabama and heard about evolutionary theory."

---E.O. Wilson, The Humanist magazine, Sept. 1982


† † †  
Quote
"Evolution played an even more central role in torpedoing (Richard) Dawkins' Anglican when he was 15. †Dawkins says he had always assumed that the intricacy of living things meant God must have designed them, just as the English philosopher William Paley argued in his 1802 book "Natural Theology."

Then Dawkins began to learn about evolution, and he realized that biology could explain life's apparent design without the need for a deity.

"So finally it was Darwinism that did it for my religious faith," Dawkins said in an interview at Oxford University.

---Jeremy Manier, "The New Theology,", Chicago Tribune Online, Jan. 20, 2008


By the way, Manier's article also contains the sad story of Christian college professor (and theistic evolutionist) †Howard Van Till's fall from Christianity. †Might as well check that horror story out too:

† † †  
Quote
"If your faith requires supernaturalism, or a God who wields overpowering control over nature, then yes, evolution will challenge that," says Van Till, who took early retirement from Calvin College in 1999.


So since belief in the biblical Jesus automatically entails belief in supernaturalism (you know, supernatural miracles, including "overpowering control" of stormy winds and waves, and little things like, umm, rising from the dead), Van Till is effectively denying what the Bible clearly and foundationally said about Jesus himself. † †

At that point, you droppin' out of Christianity, folks. †You takin' the A-train straight to Eternal Hell-Fire on your Eternal Butt, and meanwhile thinkin' that you all enlightened, all scientific, and all cool on the tracks.
You gotta be kidding. †All you're doing is proving that Evolution is NOT compatible with Christianity.

And then there's the ultimate tragic back-sliding evolution example, Big Daddy Chuck Darwin himself, your patron saint.

† † † † †
Quote
"That evolution erodes religious belief seems almost too obvious to require argument.

It destroyed the faith of Darwin himself, who moved from Christianity to agnosticism as a result of his discoveries and was immediately recognized as a huge threat by his reverent contemporaries."

---Jacob Weisberg, Slate.com, Aug. 10, 2005


The details of evolution's tragic erosion and destruction of Charles Darwin's faith can be found here:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/darwin.html

******

So people we gotta get serious, I don't care what label you wear or don't wear. †Evolutionists from Eugenie Scott and her NCSE gang to the Freeman-Herron evolutionary biology textbook Evolutionary Analysis 4th edition are busy trying to sell you the snake-oiled scam that evolution is somehow compatible with Christianity, even though you can clearly see from the above examples that it is simply NOT compatible.

So that's why we have to talk about it. †Some of YOU, sitting right there, already know that evolution has done some serious corroding and eroding on YOUR personal or former Christian beliefs too. †In fact, some of you used to be Christians but now are NO longer Christians---and evolution is a factor in there somewhere. †
Shoot, every time some of you stick your evolutionist nose close to your keyboards, you keep getting faint whiffs of sulphur and brimstone. †Get a clue baby!!

This is a tragedy. †This is an emergency. †And it's happening to science-loving, God-loving youth and young adults right now. †We gotta at least talk about it, assuming you got the cajones for such discussion.

My next post will offer a short list of the primary reasons why evolution is not compatible with Christianity.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,02:53   

Ooooh are we going to be saved? I haven't been saved in ages.

I'm even mildly looking forward to the forthcoming crapfest. My, my, is that the sound of my hard bitten (and hard won!) cynicism regarding creationists cracking mildly?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,02:53   

Quote
This is a tragedy. †This is an emergency. †And it's happening to science-loving, God-loving youth and young adults right now. †We gotta at least talk about it, assuming you got the cajones for such discussion.

Even if we accept that is the case, what then?

What do you propose replacing "Evolution" with exactly?

Sure, provide reasons why you claim your religion is incompatible with evolution. Knock yourself out.

However, what's the point unless you specify what you'd replace it with that would be compatible with both the physical evidence and your religion.

As it seems to me the logical position to take (and one that many people have taken as you yourself note) is that if your particular religion and evolution are incompatible then your religion, not evolution, is wrong.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,03:18   

Quote
Ooooh are we going to be saved? I haven't been saved in ages.


Oh no no, don't get me wrong dude. †I didn't come here to save anybody. †You wanna be Old Scratch's next piece of Pitchfork Shish-Ka-Bobbed Rump-Roast, I'm not gonna git in your way at all!

Shoot, if savin' you guys were my intention up in here, I'd be all polite and circumspect in my choice of words within this peanut thread. †Heh!

Nope, my intention here is simply to execute the two stated discussion/debate topics to the best of my ability by Nov 1. †The opportunity was graciously extended and so I'm here.

Now I have promised to be civil, respectful and circumspect about it all in the main debate thread, and I will very seriously keep that promise. †
I do value respectfulness and civility and my two favorite discussion forums (CARM and TCJ, btw), are quite seriously (and evenhandedly) moderated for precisely those two qualities.

However, in this AtBC peanut thread, I might loosen up and go freestyle a bit, have a little fun, stick some ants in your evo-pants. †(Preferably solenopsis invicta, yes?)

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,03:46   

Quote

So, why should we start off with an honest, extended discussion/debate of "Evolution Is Incompatible With Christianity"?


It seems pretty pointless to me. FL has his opinion, and he will not be persuaded otherwise, as years of interaction have shown. Others have different opinions, despite the various arguments and, more commonly, simple reiteration deployed by FL over those same years.

Lenny Flank's questions would be apropos here, it seems.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,04:26   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 14 2009,09:46)
Quote

So, why should we start off with an honest, extended discussion/debate of "Evolution Is Incompatible With Christianity"?


It seems pretty pointless to me. FL has his opinion, and he will not be persuaded otherwise, as years of interaction have shown. Others have different opinions, despite the various arguments and, more commonly, simple reiteration deployed by FL over those same years.

Lenny Flank's questions would be apropos here, it seems.

Lenny's questions, at least on this matter, are ALWAYS apropos.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,04:33   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,09:18)
 
Quote
Ooooh are we going to be saved? I haven't been saved in ages.


Oh no no, don't get me wrong dude. †I didn't come here to save anybody. †You wanna be Old Scratch's next piece of Pitchfork Shish-Ka-Bobbed Rump-Roast, I'm not gonna git in your way at all!

[SNIP]

Ladies and Gentlemen the first, Loving Christian ô, Threat of Hell ô.

Believe as I do or die. Thank you Loving Christian ô, for all those options.

FL, true to form, is delivering in spades.

I'd say this is going to be fun. I'd be wrong if I did. This is, as predicted, going to be "interesting" as defined above.

Louis

ETA: Why do I get the impression that FL's presence here is the internet's equivalent of AtBC catching syphilis? I chose that disease deliberately, it has specific effects on the nervous system...

--------------
Bye.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,05:36   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 14 2009,03:46)
Quote

So, why should we start off with an honest, extended discussion/debate of "Evolution Is Incompatible With Christianity"?


It seems pretty pointless to me. FL has his opinion, and he will not be persuaded otherwise, as years of interaction have shown. Others have different opinions, despite the various arguments and, more commonly, simple reiteration deployed by FL over those same years.

Lenny Flank's questions would be apropos here, it seems.

It does seem pointless. If I'd have been smarter, I'd have bothered to check on who he was. Instead -- in my ignorance -- I did precisely the wrong thing. However, now that he's accepted my stupid invitation, I have only bad choices as to how to handle it, and I apologize for the entire thing.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,05:38   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,04:33)
I chose that disease deliberately, it has specific effects on the nervous system...

I will feed him and groom him and take him out for walks, and I will call him "Twitchy."

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,06:27   

Enough with the mea culpa's, Squirrel Boy! I for one Deadman am perfectly happy with what you did. We haven't had a creationist chum for a while here. Granted, new, exciting, less wilfully stupid and obstinate creationist chums are always preferred to old, dull, arse-quakingly reliant on quote mining, and stubbornly unintelligent creationist chums, but hey, when life gives you stupid fucking lemons, you make stupid fucking lemonade.

I'm sorry. I know FL is a human being, a wonderful, unique snowflake and thus deserving of my kindness and civility, and I shall struggle to elevate my curmudgeonly self to appropriate levels of such. But dammit wilful, active ignorance and stupidity piss me off. Disagreement I can handle, I *LIKE* disagreement. It makes for fun debate and discussion, which is after all what I came here for many moons ago. (By "here" I mean Teh Intertubez not just the wonderful drunken debauchery and never ending series of puns and mum jokes that is AtBC). But, tragically, there does come a point when you realise that you are trying to have a rational debate with people that are simply incapable of it. Then the misanthropy sets is.

I wonder how Wes maintains his cheery demeanour in the face of staggering mendignostupitude*. He's been at the forefront of this for a long old while. I'm guessing massive amounts of drugs.

Louis

*Neologisms, not my strong point. Mendignostupitude is a specific combination of mendacity, stupidity and ignorance that is actively maintained, even claimed to be desirable. The maintenance of such traits must be done openly, wilfully, and stubbornly. Mere native stupidity is not required, the person can be very intelligent, but they must be actively TRYING to be stupid. The combination must be displayed with an attitude of perfect righteousness. People exhibiting this quality habitually fall back on false accusations of tu quoque, appeals to mystery, personal ignorance, persecution and most importantly conspiracy. Mendignostupitude is a hallmark of all species of denialist.

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,06:28   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 14 2009,11:38)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,04:33)
I chose that disease deliberately, it has specific effects on the nervous system...

I will feed him and groom him and take him out for walks, and I will call him "Twitchy."

Is his Native American name* not more appropriate?

Louis

*Dribbles With Ignorance?

ETA: DAMN! That little personal promise lasted all of ten seconds. I am a bad person and deserve to be spanked. I shall call up Mistress Spanky McDiscipline immediately for appropriate punishment. I promise that I have been a very bad boy and will in no way enjoy myself.

--------------
Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,07:00   

Who cares if evolution is incompatible with Christianity (or Islam, or Zoroastrianism, or Pastafarianism, for that matter)? It is compatible with the evidence.

This whole thing is a argumentum ad consequentiam. FL doesn't like the consequences of reality. It makes his interpretation of non-reality difficult. Big deal. Why should we care if he can't deal with reality?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
† † † † † † † † † † † † - Pattiann Rogers

   
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 554
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,07:02   

Quote
Believe as I do or die

That's getting off easy. †Everyone dies; FL's loving god would have you tortured infinitely, forever, for your crime of coming to your own conclusions about how the universe works.

Don't blame FL though, he's been held captive by Jebus for so long that he's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

--------------
"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,08:25   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,06:27)
Enough with the mea culpa's, Squirrel Boy! I for one Deadman am perfectly happy with what you did. We haven't had a creationist chum for a while here. Granted, new, exciting, less wilfully stupid and obstinate creationist chums are always preferred to old, dull, arse-quakingly reliant on quote mining, and stubbornly unintelligent creationist chums, but hey, when life gives you stupid fucking lemons, you make stupid fucking lemonade.

I second what Louis said,  - Don't apologize - and give a huge "Whew"... That could be me dammit, if BA^77 had accepted the challenge a couple of weeks ago - and we could use another Creo For Christ to play with.  

I wonder if FL can flounce out as good as FTK?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,08:41   

Came across this while perusing some of Floyd's past forays:

*********************

Please read the following passage and answer the question that follows:

In the mid-1800s, Darwin showed how the concept of evolution by natural selection applies to living systems. But evolution also operates in the inanimate world, not only Earth but the universe as a whole, including all cosmic bodies (galaxies, stars, circumstellar and interstellar clouds, interstellar molecules, planetary systems, planets, comets, asteroids, meteorites) and all chemical elements. Comets transported organic molecules and water to the primitive Earth early in the planet's history, presumably over a period of several hundred million years. In the oceans that then formed, both cometary and terrestrial (those synthesized directly in the environment) organic molecules evolved by natural selection, ultimately giving rise to life - possibly in the "warm little pond" that Darwin envisioned in his famous letter to Joseph Hooker (see chapter 3). The linkage from cosmic elements to cometary molecules to primitive Earth to biological evolution ties cosmochemical evolution to the origin of life.

Does the above passage indicate to you that:

1. The author sees evolution by natural selection as a 'basic' phenomenon/concept that has applications to biology, cosmology; both animate/living and inanimate/non-living things and thus as a concept, 'evolution' ties all all these areas together



2. The author is indicating that abiogenesis/cosmochemical evolution are part of the Theory of Evolution as put forth by Darwin
*********************

The question is asked because Floyd likes to take snippets from that quote to claim that evolution (as such) definitley includes abiogenesis, and we all know that if you can find problems with abiogenesis, therefore, you've found problems with evolution:

***************

He's referring to his fantasy wherein Oro's quote (Mello only ever quotes this part: "...organic molecules evolved by natural selection, ultimately giving rise to life - possibly in the "warm little pond" that Darwin envisioned in his famous letter to Joseph Hooker (see chapter 3)." except that he leaves off the ellipses in the beginning and capitalizes Organic) really means that abiogenesis is part and parcel of Biological evolution and thus if he can carry on about a bunch of 'problems' with abiogenesis, he has thus refuted evolution as well.

He insists that he is interpeteing Oro correctly when he comes to that conclusion.
***************

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,08:53   

Oooo - that one musta hurt, eh Floyd?

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,09:10   

Quote (SLP @ Sep. 14 2009,08:53)
Oooo - that one musta hurt, eh Floyd?

Yep... Cherryl pretty much hands FL his ass, and we have the smoking gun proof of FL's Lots Of Lying For Jesus.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,10:02   

Quote (SLP @ Sep. 14 2009,08:53)
Oooo - that one musta hurt, eh Floyd?



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. †We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,10:17   

Not that it will matter, of course.   If you are familiar with FL/Mellotron's antics re: the Oro quote, you wil know that neither context nor common sense will deter his invincible ignorance.

  
JohnK



Posts: 13
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,10:30   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,02:31)
Manier's article also contains the sad story of Christian college professor (and theistic evolutionist) †Howard Van Till's fall from Christianity. †
Might as well check that horror story out too.

As anyone can see (Jeremy Manier, "The New Theology", Chicago Tribune, Jan. 20, 2008), Manier's article also contains the views of christian theistic evolutionists Francis Collins, Simon Conway Morris, John Haught, Ken Miller, Thomas Berry, etc.
Even in his very first debate post, FL couldn't restrain from his standard practice of selective quotations and cherrypicking, rewriting his own horror story over and over.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,10:34   

"Speaking  to  a  group  of  Italian  priests  ..."

Good post Deadman. Why you wanted a new chewtoy is beyond me, but you did promise to clean up after him.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,11:10   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 14 2009,08:00)
Who cares if evolution is incompatible with Christianity (or Islam, or Zoroastrianism, or Pastafarianism, for that matter)? It is compatible with the evidence.

This whole thing is a argumentum ad consequentiam. FL doesn't like the consequences of reality. It makes his interpretation of non-reality difficult. Big deal. Why should we care if he can't deal with reality?

he seems to be oblivious to the fact that religious claims don't make contact with empirical reality and therefore can be contorted to fit whatever facts there may be available.

poor sap pobby thinks the 10 commandments were really written in stone

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Keelyn



Posts: 40
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,12:11   

FL said:

ďÖEvolution Is Incompatible With Christianity?

Because, first and foremost, that's the truth, as we shall see.Ē

No, as has been demonstrated to the point of ad nauseam, that is not the truth. That is lie number one (you are off to an unsurprising start). It is only true for you and other Sunday fundies who happen to share your particular interpretation of Christianity Ė hardly a universal truth. But, simply for the sake of argument, even if it was true, so what? Evolutionary biology is a science (whether you wish to acknowledge that fact or not is irrelevant) supported by volumes of facts and evidence, i.e., reality. It doesnít matter whether it conflicts (even universally) with Christian dogma or not. ToE is no more, or less, contradictory to your beliefs than quantum theory or Lambda CDM\Big Bang theory. In any of the cases mentioned, so what? Scientific facts and evidence are just that Ė facts and evidence (again, reality). What you are apparently advocating is that reality be dismissed in favor of centuries old religious dogma. Are you totally oblivious to how patently stupid that is? I canít attribute that kind of inane thought processing to ignorance; on the contrary, it falls squarely at the high end of the stupid spectrum. I have to assume that your particular belief system is the result of intense childhood indoctrination and not something you acquired in the midst of adulthood.

Having been raised by ultra-liberal, reality oriented, but god believing parents, my brother and I were spared being spoon-fed any of your fundamentalist garbage. I canít personally speak for my younger brother, he died too young to have formulated a serious opinion, but I have no doubt that my own devout, apathetic agnosticism is a direct result of my parents telling me the real truth about things I questioned Ė and for that I thank them. Which leads me to your second lie:

ďEvolution erodes and corrodes Christian faith. Poisonously so. Daniel Dennett was right: evolution is "The Universal Acid."Ē

Wrong. It obviously hasnít corroded your faith or others who fervently believe as you do. As for most other people, they do not see a conflict between evolution and their faith to begin with, therefore your statement doesnít even apply. As for those who may have abandoned fundamentalist nonsense in favor of reality Öwonderful. Thatís not an erosion, itís blessing! Itís called enlightenment to the truths of the Universe. It also means that there is one less self-appointed, self-righteous moralist standing on self-anointed high ground, hell bent to deny equal opportunities and benefits to people like me. If all of Christendom evaporated into oblivion this afternoon, who (other than you and your ilk) would really care? It would simply be the demise of an institution that has, for centuries, caused more harm, divisiveness, and strife then any appreciable benefit.

The rest of your biblical babble rant you have posted a thousand times before Ė itís all ridiculous and no more relevant now then it was before. Nonsense about supernatural miracles that have absolutely no compelling evidence of support, childish scare tactics about hell, stupid remarks like Darwin being a patron saint (I donít worship dead people Ė even ones who have made monumental contributions to science and humanity Ė I admire and respect them Öworshiping dead people is something you do), and the imagined tragedy and emergency to todayís youth being corrupted by real science (it hasnít corrupted me). And the only time I get a whiff of sulfur is when my grandfather lights a match for his pipe. So, why donít you get a clue and drop the ďincompatibility argumentĒ (you are merely voicing a personal opinion that is no more valid than any other opinion) and just move on to the ďID is scienceĒ nonsense. At least that would be somewhat more Öinteresting. No more compelling, but maybe a little more interesting (or not). Any chance?

--------------
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. -- Wolfgang Pauli

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. -- Mark Twain

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,12:25   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,02:31)
So, why should we start off with an honest, extended discussion/debate of "Evolution Is Incompatible With Christianity"?

Because, first and foremost, that's the truth, as we shall see... †

I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions. Personally I self-identified as a Christian when first entering these debates. What I saw was that the people defending evolution where far more honest than the creationists that where attacking it. I saw science's defenders use evidence and reasoning while your side used deception and bullshit.

Now I self-identify as an agnostic. You think it was evolution that caused me to change my opinion, when in actuality it was the behaviour of your ilk. If you can't be honest about things that are easy to check, do you really expect me to trust you on things that aren't?

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,12:55   

While it would be perfectly valid for you to say "evolution is incompatible with my version of Christianity", the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong, since all that's required to falsify that statement is for a single Christian to disagree with it (e.g. the Pope), and your only recourse seems to be the "No True Scotsman" fallacy (the Pope's not a "True Christiantm").
†I'm surprised that you next plan to argue that "ID is science". †Seems like first you must answer the question "Is ID compatible with Christianity", since †by your apparent definition of Christianity, it would seem that the answer is "No". †Even Baptist Dembski and Catholic Behe argue that ID is compatible with the science of evolution. †Where does that leave you?

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein †(H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,12:58   

Quote
FL has his opinion, and he will not be persuaded otherwise, as years of interaction have shown.


And I can say the exact same thing about you, Dr. Elsberry, based on reading your PT posts for years likewise. †

In fact, I would be very highly surprised if anybody in this forum confessed at all to being "persuaded otherwise" from their current position, after being presented with the facts and reasonings that I intend to offer, as well as the counter-responses from Deadman and other posters.

You see, this debate--though intended to "persuade" as all debates are intended to--is not based on anybody promising to be "persuaded otherwise" or confess such, even if their POV does happen to quietly change. †Most public debates--online or offline--don't come with any guarantees or expectations in that direction. †

The idea is simply that each side rationally presents their case the best they can, also rationally responding to their opponent's case the best they can, and then both sides let the chips fall where they may. †That's it.

As I suggested, I'm NOT here looking for converts. †I'm NOT going to conduct any "Sawdust Trail Altar Calls" after this debate is over to see if anybody's ready to repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior, or ready to accept the historicity and trustworthiness of Genesis, or ready to accept whatever whatever. †That's simply not the issue here.

All I wanna do is honor the gracious invitation that was given, and do my best on the topics given. †
Hopefully the end result will be that an informative and vigorous discussion/debate will have taken place and provide much food for thought, for all your readers and lurkers.

******

There is one other thing, however. †My understanding from previous posts of the past, is that you yourself profess to be a Christian, Dr. Elsberry. †
So one of the things that I am particularly interested in is hearing the views and responses of the AtBC posters who claim to be Christians as well as evolutionists, in light of the very heavy incompatibilities I'll be presenting and documenting later today.

So I hope you will make time in your busy schedule to respond to some or all of them, as time permits for you. †This particular request is extended not only to Dr. Elsberry but to all Christian (and non-Christian) evolutionists who may be reading this post. †Thanks in advance!

FloydLee

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:05   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 14 2009,18:25)
Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,02:31)
So, why should we start off with an honest, extended discussion/debate of "Evolution Is Incompatible With Christianity"?

Because, first and foremost, that's the truth, as we shall see... †

I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions. Personally I self-identified as a Christian when first entering these debates. What I saw was that the people defending evolution where far more honest than the creationists that where attacking it. I saw science's defenders use evidence and reasoning while your side used deception and bullshit.

Now I self-identify as an agnostic. You think it was evolution that caused me to change my opinion, when in actuality it was the behaviour of your ilk. If you can't be honest about things that are easy to check, do you really expect me to trust you on things that aren't?

Welcome back Steve BTW. Are you well?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:09   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58)
in light of the very heavy incompatibilities I'll be presenting and documenting later today.

FloydLee,

A simple question.

Is it only Christianity that evolution is incompatible with?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:12   

prediction:  FL will use this thread as an excuse to avoid or ignore the other one.  looking forward to straw scotsmen!

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:13   

Quote
....the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong


Is it so obviously wrong? †Is it really, Sledgehammer?

You know, over at CARM, I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with.

Been asking them for years, quite literally. †I sincerely want to hear about and critically examine this alleged alternative version of Christianity.

But they can't deliver the goods. †Every time, they wind up having to back off. †(Seems the Bible just won't co-operate with them or something.)

That's one reason why I'm happy to have this opportunity within this forum. †In the course of this debate, I intend to ask you guys and gals the same sincere request, both the resident Christians and the resident non-Christians. †

Maybe I'll have more luck this time, with you guys and gals. †We'll see. †(PS....I don't believe in luck.)

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:40   

Quote
Is it only Christianity that evolution is incompatible with?


I don't know. †Honestly haven't done a survey of world religions on that particular question. †

However, evolution IS compatible with the religion of deism (and I'll be discussing that a little more in today's response to Deadman within the main debate thread), but what you evolutionists are publicly trying to sell to everybody is the claim that evolution is compatible with Christianity, specifically. †Not deism, but Christianity.

So debunking that particular evo-claim of "compatibility" is an emergency priority. †

After all, one cannot maintain good health by drinking battery acid---in fact it will have the opposite effect. †Likewise, American Christianity cannot maintain its health by drinking "The Universal Acid" -- evolution. †We are all seeing the said opposite effect taking place even now within American Christianity. †

******

† † † † †
Quote
prediction: †FL will use this thread as an excuse to avoid or ignore the other one.


You wish I would baby, but all yo' little wishin's are in vain. †The field is in play and now your choices are to step up, step off, or just plain git run over anyway! †

Just make sure YOU don't disappear on ME, either in this thread or the main debate thread. †I'll be listening for your considered responses Erasmus.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:40   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 14 2009,13:09)
 
Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58)
in light of the very heavy incompatibilities I'll be presenting and documenting later today.

FloydLee,

A simple question.

Is it only Christianity that evolution is incompatible with?

??

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:40   

FL;
Evolution may indeed be incompatible with your understanding of Christianity based on your interpretation of the Bible. †So what! †Other Christians disagree, obviously. †

As has been pointed out to you many times by many others, the validity of evolutionary theory is not affected by your views on Christianity. †I personally am not interested in discussions on theology. †I prefer sticking with the science.

--------------
"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:43   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58)

Quote
Quote
FL has his opinion, and he will not be persuaded otherwise, as years of interaction have shown.


And I can say the exact same thing about you, Dr. Elsberry, based on reading your PT posts for years likewise.  


You presuppose that the material you've presented has merit and is worthy of being considered in-depth.

Your 'argument' style is absolutely child-like - you have your heroes who can do no wrogn, you have your choice (often doctored or otherwise inaccurate) quotes form individuals that you then claim are the ultimate experts/authorities, and you refuse to yield an inch when shown that you should be a mile back.

That the Dunning-Kruger dogma in you.

Quote

In fact, I would be very highly surprised if anybody in this forum confessed at all to being "persuaded otherwise" from their current position, after being presented with the facts and reasonings that I intend to offer, as well as the counter-responses from Deadman and other posters.


I would, too, considering the quality of your arguments.

I have personally had the opportunity to delve into your position statements, quote mongering, hero worship, and repetitious regurgiposting, and I have that you are immune to acknowledging error.

You simply ignore refutations of your position, wait  few weeks or months, then make the same claims all over again.


Frankly, I don't care if evolution is incompatible with your version of Christianity. I would imagine that there are any number of real-life phenomena that are.  Of course, being incompatible with Branze-Age mythology is not rationale to dismiss evidence, unless, of course, one is not actually interested in the truth.

  
fusilier



Posts: 215
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:44   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,14:13)
Quote
....the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong


Is it so obviously wrong? †Is it really, Sledgehammer?

You know, over at CARM, I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with.

Been asking them for years, quite literally. †I sincerely want to hear about and critically examine this alleged alternative version of Christianity.

But they can't deliver the goods. †Every time, they wind up having to back off. †(Seems the Bible just won't co-operate with them or something.)

That's one reason why I'm happy to have this opportunity within this forum. †In the course of this debate, I intend to ask you guys and gals the same sincere request, both the resident Christians and the resident non-Christians. †

Maybe I'll have more luck this time, with you guys and gals. †We'll see. †(PS....I don't believe in luck.)

And, contrary to your lying claim, many of us (ergaster, ah_mini, glad_to_be_saved, omar)* and I have presented you with such.  Thing is, you have a prooftext mentality, and your personal, idiosyncratic literalist interpretation is unable to cope with those demonstrations.

Hell, if Jesus His Very Self were to come and tell you that Descent with Modification is how Hedidit, you'd deny Him three times before the cock crowed.


OBTW, are you really black, or do you just post argumentum per bolds, phony hip-hop slang, and ~weird punctuation~ in order to make yourself look cool for the youth ministry**?







*all CARM screen-names

**ht to SLP for the conclusion

--------------
fusilier
James 2:24

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:46   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,14:13)
Quote
....the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong


Is it so obviously wrong? †Is it really, Sledgehammer?

You know, over at CARM, I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with.

Been asking them for years, quite literally. †I sincerely want to hear about and critically examine this alleged alternative version of Christianity.

But they can't deliver the goods. †Every time, they wind up having to back off. †(Seems the Bible just won't co-operate with them or something.)

That's one reason why I'm happy to have this opportunity within this forum. †In the course of this debate, I intend to ask you guys and gals the same sincere request, both the resident Christians and the resident non-Christians. †

Maybe I'll have more luck this time, with you guys and gals. †We'll see. †(PS....I don't believe in luck.)

so far i am correct!

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,13:50   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 14 2009,14:40)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 14 2009,13:09)
Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58)
in light of the very heavy incompatibilities I'll be presenting and documenting later today.

FloydLee,

A simple question.

Is it only Christianity that evolution is incompatible with?

??

yes or no.  all you have to know is one example to say No.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,14:05   

FloydLee,

Quote
You know, over at CARM, I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with.


You are, it seems to me, taking the opposite if incompatible to be "supports". It is not. The manual for my 2003 Honda Element is compatible with evolutionary theory and with the bible. (One is tempted, then, to invoke transitivity.)

I am curious: how do you reconcile your fear that evolution can destroy saving faith (I am assuming that is an accurate rephrasing of what you wroteócorrect me if not) with passages such as:

Quote
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (John 10:29)


and

Quote
because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. (1 John 4:4)


(Just to take a couple) If evolution can threaten the faith of a believer, then a believer can be snatched, contra John 10:29, and something is greater than he who is withinósince, after all, he has promised that none will be snatched.

I'm guessing I could never agree with your interpretation of the bible. You are too much of a liberal for my tastes.

--------
EDIT: MOAT (mother of all typos)

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Leftfield



Posts: 100
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,14:07   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,13:13)
.... I keep on asking the resident evolutionists to please offer me a Bible-supported, and rationally-supported, version of "Christianity" that evolution as currently taught is clearly compatible with.
...
But they can't deliver the goods.


Shocking. And has anyone been able to provide a "rationally-supported" version of Christianity of some other sort?

--------------
Speaking for myself, I have long been confused . . .-Denyse O'Leary

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,14:41   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,13:05)
Welcome back Steve BTW. Are you well?

Louis

Cheers Louis,
I went away from this site for a fair while due to being sick.




Sick to fuckin death of creationist lying. Been lurking for a few months now. I see you have had a fair few changes recently. Congrats! You look tired, have a seat. :D

The sad thing about this debate is that I am pretty sure that all the regulars here can predict how it is going to proceed with remarkable accuracy. A fair few already have.

We fired our truths and the creo's kept a'comin.
There was just as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down to the places where the truth just wouldn't go.


Apologies.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,14:58   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Sep. 14 2009,12:55)
†I'm surprised that you next plan to argue that "ID is science". †Seems like first you must answer the question "Is ID compatible with Christianity", since †by your apparent definition of Christianity, it would seem that the answer is "No". †Even Baptist Dembski and Catholic Behe argue that ID is compatible with the science of evolution. †Where does that leave you?

FL stated that "Evolution is incompatible with Christianity." Period. No qualifiers.

Given that Behe and Dembski both accept that differing degrees of evolutionary change have already occurred, that would seem to indicate that both are also not Christians.

Yet they would (and do) say otherwise.

Interesting point, or as interesting as it gets in this dismal little exercise.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:24   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 14 2009,15:05)
The manual for my 2003 Honda Element...<snip>

Okay, totally OT, but I have to pipe up that my dogshowmobile is also a 2003 Element. †Love that ugly box. †:)

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Jasper



Posts: 76
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:28   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 14 2009,15:05)
 
Quote
I'm guessing I could never agree with your interpretation of the bible. You are too much of a liberal for my tastes.

Now, that is funny. † :D

  
JohnK



Posts: 13
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:29   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 14 2009,13:13)
† †
Quote
....the generalization "evolution is incompatible with all forms of Christianity" is so obviously wrong

I sincerely want to hear about and critically examine this alleged alternative version of Christianity.
(Seems the Bible just won't co-operate with them or something.)

There it is - not even one "alternate version" of christianity, only FL's version.
No alternate interpretations of the Bible, only FL's One True Interpretation.
Although some suspected FL would be more coy, the debate ends quickly.
But after years of discussion with fuselier et al on CARM, and well aware of entire books by Miller, Haught, Conway Morris, Collins, etc. -- everyone does have to admit that FL's "I sincerely want to hear..." is the nicest touch of utterly phony bullshit.

  
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:34   

Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible. †The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord. †:)



Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 14 2009,19:48

--------------
"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:38   

Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:34)
Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible. †The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord. †:)

POTW*

You win the thread.

Louis

*For at least 45 mins.

--------------
Bye.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:49   

Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,15:34)
Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible. †The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord. †:)

Whoa, whoa, whoa...Heddle drives a Honda? What, is he some kinda COMMIE?

You're damn close to gettin' your NASCAR card revoked, mister.

pps:  POTW (for an hour) seconded.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:53   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 14 2009,20:41)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,13:05)
Welcome back Steve BTW. Are you well?

Louis

Cheers Louis,
I went away from this site for a fair while due to being sick.




Sick to fuckin death of creationist lying. Been lurking for a few months now. I see you have had a fair few changes recently. Congrats! You look tired, have a seat. :D

The sad thing about this debate is that I am pretty sure that all the regulars here can predict how it is going to proceed with remarkable accuracy. A fair few already have.

We fired our truths and the creo's kept a'comin.
There was just as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down to the places where the truth just wouldn't go.


Apologies.

Thanks Steve. Knackered doesn't even begin to describe it!

Yeah, this "debate" will go the standard route. I think the only thing of genuine interest is the book on when and how specific classic elements of the debate will turn up, and the ensuing drinking games and exchange of monies.

Since the threats of hell came up earlier than even I expected, I'm going for our new chum to do a post #10 invocation of appeal to mystery, a post #40 flounce out and a return 3 weeks afterwards. Any dissent?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,15:59   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,16:38)
 
Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:34)
Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible. †The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord. †:)

POTW*

You win the thread.

Louis

*For at least 45 mins.

My very first POTW, and I get it with a very old and very lame joke. †Mom will be so proud! :D

--------------
"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:02   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,15:53)
Since the threats of hell came up earlier than even I expected, I'm going for our new chum to do a post #10 invocation of appeal to mystery, a post #40 flounce out and a return 3 weeks afterwards. Any dissent?

Louis

Tease. You know there can be no dissent within the EvoBorg.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Dan



Posts: 77
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:07   

My thoughts on FL's first post:

There are many reasons one might be a Christian -- here are a few I though of right off hand:  for social interactions, for the purity of one's soul, to support good works, to expand the good part of one's own personality, to attend confession, to make friends, to make business connections, to insure the immortality of one's soul, to insure that you will meet your deceased spouse in the afterlife, in expectation of answered prayer, to provide a moor of stability during difficult times, to make sure you have a place for a nice church wedding, to explain the laws of physics, to explain the origin of life, to explain the diversity of living things, to find a sanctuary of calm in a turbulent world, to support great art, to feed one's feeling of the spiritual, to support environmental stewardship, to oppose war, to support social justice, to connect with one's personal history, to connect with one's national heritage, to connect with a world heritage, to be part of a group supporting something larger than one's self.

A knowledge of evolution removes, at very most, only one of those reasons: "to explain the diversity of living things".

I imagine that for most people this is a non-reason or very minor reason for being a Christian.  Suppose you handed out a survey to Christians listing all these reasons and more.  How many do you think would check: "I am a Christian because I want to explain the diversity of living things"?

I have not done this, but I can't imagine that more than 0.2% of all Christians hold their faith because they want their faith to explain the diversity of living things.  If my hunch is correct, then only 0.2% of all Christians are at risk of losing their faith due to knowledge of evolution.  Perhaps that's why, even with all his distortions, FL could find only four examples of "loss of faith due to evolution".

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:13   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 14 2009,14:41)
Cheers Louis,
I went away from this site for a fair while due to being sick.




Sick to fuckin death of creationist lying.

Agreed. †There seems to come a point at which the anti-evolutionists' lies and quote-mines and serpentine syllogisms just saturate my soul and begins to suck it down into a black hole. †That (and the question of theodicy) form the acid which corrodes faith.

Sadly, the actions of some of those who call themselves Christians have caused 3 teenagers I know of to declare themselves atheist or agnostic. †Evolution had nothing to do with it, according to them! †Try as I might to persuade the kids that these extremists aren't representative of the rank-and-file, they're sickened at the mendacity and manipulation they see practiced by these so-called leaders of faith.

Even more tragically, I see first-hand the results of kids ignoring reality, when they think their bodies are immune to the laws of physics so they don't need to bother wearing their seatbelts. †Do they think that God will protect them from being ejected from the vehicle? †Did they ever think that maybe, just maybe, God might have been that still small voice in the seat belt designer's ear?

So Floyd, the only factor I've personally witnessed corroding bodies and souls is one you unfortunately exhibit: †distorting reality in the name of 'faith.'

The really good news is that the proportion of Christian clergy who support evolution (that is, those who've signed on to the Clergy Letter Project) is 2600 times greater than the proportion of biologists who reject evolution.

The 11,000 signees of the Clergy Letter Project represent about 3% of the ministers in the U.S.

About 104 biologists from the U.S. - of a possible 955,300 - signed the "Dissent from Darwinism" statement; an impressively underwhelming 0.01%.

What does it mean when evolution has more support among clergy than it has dissent among biologists?

--------------
Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:21   

Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:59)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,16:38)
†  
Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:34)
Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible. †The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord. †:)

POTW*

You win the thread.

Louis

*For at least 45 mins.

My very first POTW, and I get it with a very old and very lame joke. †Mom will be so proud! :D

Get away with an old lame joke? Sorry but have you seen any new, non-lame jokes around here? Old and lame jokes are what we pride ourselves upon dammit!

Speaking of old and lame, {insert AtBC member of choice's name}, it's time for Matlock.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:22   

Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,15:34)
Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible. †The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord. †:)

POTW -- that is hilarious!

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,16:22   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 14 2009,22:02)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,15:53)
Since the threats of hell came up earlier than even I expected, I'm going for our new chum to do a post #10 invocation of appeal to mystery, a post #40 flounce out and a return 3 weeks afterwards. Any dissent?

Louis

Tease. You know there can be no dissent within the EvoBorg.

One of us. One of us. One of us....

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2293
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,17:03   

Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,13:59)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,16:38)
†  
Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,21:34)
Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible. †The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord. †:)

POTW*

You win the thread.

Louis

*For at least 45 mins.

My very first POTW, and I get it with a very old and very lame joke. †Mom will be so proud! :D

Given the amount of sleep Louis is getting, I thought it was pretty good.*




* Which is exactly what Arden's mum said.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
Reed



Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,17:24   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 14 2009,12:58)
FL stated that "Evolution is incompatible with Christianity." Period. No qualifiers.

Given that Behe and Dembski both accept that differing degrees of evolutionary change have already occurred, that would seem to indicate that both are also not Christians.

Yet they would (and do) say otherwise.

Interesting point, or as interesting as it gets in this dismal little exercise.

Even most of the loony YECs admit to "microevolution". In fact many (Ken Ham for example) have evolution from the original "kinds" on the ark to present diversity happening unrealistically fast. If you can go from original "canid kind" to dogs, wolves, coyotes and foxes (!) in 4000 years, it's hard to see what the objection would be to an original hominid "kind" diverging into chimps and humans over a period more than a thousand times longer.

ETA:
If FL were actually interested dialog (yeah right), he'd do well to define what he means by evolution and christian up front.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,17:28   

Quote (csadams @ Sep. 14 2009,16:13)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 14 2009,14:41)
Cheers Louis,
I went away from this site for a fair while due to being sick.




Sick to fuckin death of creationist lying.

Agreed. †There seems to come a point at which the anti-evolutionists' lies and quote-mines and serpentine syllogisms just saturate my soul and begins to suck it down into a black hole. †That (and the question of theodicy) form the acid which corrodes faith.

1)Sadly, the actions of some of those who call themselves Christians have caused 3 teenagers I know of to declare themselves atheist or agnostic.
†Evolution had nothing to do with it, according to them! †Try as I might to persuade the kids that these extremists aren't representative of the rank-and-file, they're sickened at the mendacity and manipulation they see practiced by these so-called leaders of faith.

2)Even more tragically, I see first-hand the results of kids ignoring reality, when they think their bodies are immune to the laws of physics so they don't need to bother wearing their seatbelts.
†Do they think that God will protect them from being ejected from the vehicle? †Did they ever think that maybe, just maybe, God might have been that still small voice in the seat belt designer's ear?...

Hi,
I am curious.

1) Why does that sadden you.

But with

2) I think that is pretty normal. I can remember feeling that way. As a youth I felt "invulnerable". I don't think the same way now.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1056
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,18:02   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 14 2009,06:27)
Enough with the mea culpa's, Squirrel Boy! I for one Deadman am perfectly happy with what you did. We haven't had a creationist chum for a while here. Granted, new, exciting, less wilfully stupid and obstinate creationist chums are always preferred to old, dull, arse-quakingly reliant on quote mining, and stubbornly unintelligent creationist chums, but hey, when life gives you stupid fucking lemons, you make stupid fucking lemonade.

Ah the Holy Grail of in the search for creationist chums.  Sadly, I believe it is as hard to find as working cold fusion, Bigfoot, cars that fly, and Dembski's honor.  But I guess we can dream...

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
someotherguy



Posts: 367
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,19:01   

In order for this debate to have even the smallest hope of becoming a productive conversation, we're going to need to reach some sort of agreement on a working definition of Christianity, along with the minimum set of beliefs that one must hold to be legitimately considered a Christian.  Otherwise, this isn't going to work.

--------------
Evolander in training

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,19:32   

Quote (ppb @ Sep. 14 2009,13:34)
Sorry Heddle, but your Honda Element is clearly incompatible with the Bible. †The Scriptures clearly state that the disciples were together in one Accord. †:)


See here.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,19:35   

Quote
Quote
 
Quote
*For at least 45 mins.

My very first POTW, and I get it with a very old and very lame joke. †Mom will be so proud! :D

Given the amount of sleep Louis is getting, I thought it was pretty good.*




* Which is exactly what Arden's mum said.

Actually, Louis's wife hasn't been getting much sleep either, but that's mostly my fault.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Stanton



Posts: 266
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,19:36   

Quote (someotherguy @ Sep. 14 2009,19:01)
In order for this debate to have even the smallest hope of becoming a productive conversation, we're going to need to reach some sort of agreement on a working definition of Christianity, along with the minimum set of beliefs that one must hold to be legitimately considered a Christian. †Otherwise, this isn't going to work.

You mean, as in, a Christian being anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as being their (spiritual) Lord and Savior, the one who will bring him/her salvation?

  
someotherguy



Posts: 367
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,19:41   

Quote (Stanton @ Sep. 14 2009,19:36)
Quote (someotherguy @ Sep. 14 2009,19:01)
In order for this debate to have even the smallest hope of becoming a productive conversation, we're going to need to reach some sort of agreement on a working definition of Christianity, along with the minimum set of beliefs that one must hold to be legitimately considered a Christian. †Otherwise, this isn't going to work.

You mean, as in, a Christian being anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as being their (spiritual) Lord and Savior, the one who will bring him/her salvation?

Yeah, something like that. †Sort of what CS Lewis was trying to with Mere Christianity--pairing what it means to be a Christian down to a minimal set of tenets--except with, hopefully, less apologetics.

ETA:  I realize what I'm suggesting is a rather difficult task (understatement!), I just think it's a necessary condition to be able to have this particular discussion.

--------------
Evolander in training

  
Dan



Posts: 77
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,20:02   

Quote (someotherguy @ Sep. 14 2009,19:41)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Sep. 14 2009,19:36)
   
Quote (someotherguy @ Sep. 14 2009,19:01)
In order for this debate to have even the smallest hope of becoming a productive conversation, we're going to need to reach some sort of agreement on a working definition of Christianity, along with the minimum set of beliefs that one must hold to be legitimately considered a Christian.  Otherwise, this isn't going to work.

You mean, as in, a Christian being anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as being their (spiritual) Lord and Savior, the one who will bring him/her salvation?

Yeah, something like that.  Sort of what CS Lewis was trying to with Mere Christianity--pairing what it means to be a Christian down to a minimal set of tenets--except with, hopefully, less apologetics.

ETA:  I realize what I'm suggesting is a rather difficult task (understatement!), I just think it's a necessary condition to be able to have this particular discussion.

A Christian is one who attempts to life his or her life according to St. Francis's Prayer:

   Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
   where there is hatred, let me sow love;
   where there is injury, pardon;
   where there is doubt, faith;
   where there is despair, hope;
   where there is darkness, light;
   and where there is sadness, joy.

NOTE: Historically, this prayer was not written by St. Francis.  But that's irrelevant to the ideal it portrays.

  
nmgirl



Posts: 92
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,20:31   

I am new to PT and atbc and I want to say how glad I am to find you.  I have been involved in an ongoing thread about ID on a local site and have gotten very frustrated about trying to communicate with people like FL.  It feels really good to not be alone.  

Now to this discussion:  FL's first assertion is that Evolution is not compatible with Christianity.

Wrong.  I am a Christian, ie, I believe Jesus Christ is my personal savior.  I also believe in evolution.

Do I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, NO.

Do I believe that FL and his ilk have the right to judge if I am the RIGHT kind of christian, NO.

A lot of the stuff you guys discuss I don't understand.  It's been more than 30 years since I studied geology and more than 20 since I stopped working in the field.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,20:53   

The funny thing is that evangelicals like FL are so quick to tell all manner of Christians that unless they think the same as he thinks, they aren't 'real Christians', and yet, when they want to argue that America is an overwhelmingly 'Christian Nation', they're happy to include everyone who calls themselves a Christian, just to keep the percentage as high as possible. So they're inclusive when it's politically convenient, and exclusionary when that's politically convenient.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,21:00   

finally tarden shows up with some sauce.  you been phoning them in for too long.  i hadn't considered that this makes FL's dishonesty even more patronizing.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
someotherguy



Posts: 367
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,21:06   

Quote (nmgirl @ Sep. 14 2009,20:31)
I am new to PT and atbc and I want to say how glad I am to find you. †I have been involved in an ongoing thread about ID on a local site and have gotten very frustrated about trying to communicate with people like FL. †It feels really good to not be alone. †

Now to this discussion: †FL's first assertion is that Evolution is not compatible with Christianity.

Wrong. †I am a Christian, ie, I believe Jesus Christ is my personal savior. †I also believe in evolution.

Do I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, NO.

Do I believe that FL and his ilk have the right to judge if I am the RIGHT kind of christian, NO.

A lot of the stuff you guys discuss I don't understand. †It's been more than 30 years since I studied geology and more than 20 since I stopped working in the field.

Welcome!  And don't worry if you don't understand what we're talking about.  Half the things said here are inside jokes referencing things that happened on obscure websites several years ago.  The other half consists mostly of bathroom humor.   :D

--------------
Evolander in training

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,21:39   

Quote (someotherguy @ Sep. 14 2009,21:06)
Quote (nmgirl @ Sep. 14 2009,20:31)
I am new to PT and atbc and I want to say how glad I am to find you. †I have been involved in an ongoing thread about ID on a local site and have gotten very frustrated about trying to communicate with people like FL. †It feels really good to not be alone. †

Now to this discussion: †FL's first assertion is that Evolution is not compatible with Christianity.

Wrong. †I am a Christian, ie, I believe Jesus Christ is my personal savior. †I also believe in evolution.

Do I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, NO.

Do I believe that FL and his ilk have the right to judge if I am the RIGHT kind of christian, NO.

A lot of the stuff you guys discuss I don't understand. †It's been more than 30 years since I studied geology and more than 20 since I stopped working in the field.

Welcome! †And don't worry if you don't understand what we're talking about. †Half the things said here are inside jokes referencing things that happened on obscure websites several years ago. †The other half consists mostly of bathroom humor. † :D

Ah... but the third half* might actually help you and be worthwhile, and we actually do have some pretty darned smart and experienced ID / Creo Warriors here.  So ask away, and welcome.**


* Using ID Maths first advanced by New York Prof Y. Berra @ 1959.

** You DO like LOL Cats, and can use them to advance / win arguments right?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1014
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,22:18   

Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 14 2009,21:39)
Quote (someotherguy @ Sep. 14 2009,21:06)
Quote (nmgirl @ Sep. 14 2009,20:31)
I am new to PT and atbc and I want to say how glad I am to find you. †I have been involved in an ongoing thread about ID on a local site and have gotten very frustrated about trying to communicate with people like FL. †It feels really good to not be alone. †

Now to this discussion: †FL's first assertion is that Evolution is not compatible with Christianity.

Wrong. †I am a Christian, ie, I believe Jesus Christ is my personal savior. †I also believe in evolution.

Do I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, NO.

Do I believe that FL and his ilk have the right to judge if I am the RIGHT kind of christian, NO.

A lot of the stuff you guys discuss I don't understand. †It's been more than 30 years since I studied geology and more than 20 since I stopped working in the field.

Welcome! †And don't worry if you don't understand what we're talking about. †Half the things said here are inside jokes referencing things that happened on obscure websites several years ago. †The other half consists mostly of bathroom humor. † :D

Ah... but the third half* might actually help you and be worthwhile, and we actually do have some pretty darned smart and experienced ID / Creo Warriors here. †So ask away, and welcome.**


* Using ID Maths first advanced by New York Prof Y. Berra @ 1959.

** You DO like LOL Cats, and can use them to advance / win arguments right?

Then there is the half where we are trying to figure out which one of us has a sock named Jerry and who should PM Erasmus about it...

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,22:29   

i'm waiting!

FL, since you are avoiding your own thread, perhaps you will tell us how you know jerry?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 14 2009,23:00   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 14 2009,19:00)
finally tarden shows up with some sauce. †you been phoning them in for too long. †

Actually, it's just that I make a point of dumbing down my posts when you're around. I thought you'd find it helpful.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1966
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,01:43   

Quote (nmgirl @ Sep. 14 2009,18:31)


Do I believe that FL and his ilk have the right to judge if I am the RIGHT kind of christian, NO.

Howdy, nmgirl.

You wrote, "I am a Christian, ie, I believe Jesus Christ is my personal savior."

The thing that always gets me is the notion that most Christians have that 1) there is a universal need to be "saved" and that 2) salvation is trivial- just say "Sorry Jesus." They seem to have missed

Matthew 7:
21.   "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22.   "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23.   "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Or as it is more clearly said,
Luke 6
46.   "Why do you call Me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Lying for Jeebus aint the way to Heaven. Fl seems to have missed the message.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Keelyn



Posts: 40
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,01:46   

FL misses everything  :)

--------------
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. -- Wolfgang Pauli

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. -- Mark Twain

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,03:04   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 15 2009,01:35)
Quote
†  
Quote
Quote
*For at least 45 mins.

My very first POTW, and I get it with a very old and very lame joke. †Mom will be so proud! :D

Given the amount of sleep Louis is getting, I thought it was pretty good.*




* Which is exactly what Arden's mum said.

Actually, Louis's wife hasn't been getting much sleep either, but that's mostly my fault.

You're my son? I knew this reincarnation/possession thing was weird but.....wow!

Do you think you could stop whining and shitting yourself, I'm trying to get some work done!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
KCdgw



Posts: 368
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,05:05   

Quote
A Christian is one who attempts to life his or her life according to St. Francis's Prayer:

  Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
  where there is hatred, let me sow love;
  where there is injury, pardon;
  where there is doubt, faith;
  where there is despair, hope;
  where there is darkness, light;
  and where there is sadness, joy.


Note how telling the truth isn't mentioned.

KC

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
Quack



Posts: 1784
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,05:26   

Quote
Okay, I think I get it now. †There's a "FL debate thread" AND an "FL peanut gallery thread." †(Good grief!!)

Well, I've already started posting on the peanut gallery thread, (and probably will do some more posting there too, btw!), but I will use this thread for the main focus and debate. †

In this main debate thread, I will focus on civility and such. †In the peanut thread, I reserve the right to go freestyle and say inflammatory and impolite (but non-profane and not-too-insulting) statements on occasion.

FL †(Floyd Lee, aka Mellotron)

I donít think I will bother with the ďdebateĒ on the FL thread. Theology takes far too much time and effort, and Christian literalismís 2000 years history have set an incomparable precedent. Funny how many words Christians have spent on convincing the world of the bibleís truth, literal or not.

I however expect to take a peek sometimes, and maybe even make a comment, but I think Iíll use the gallery only.

But FL, I have a plea:

Please stick to your ďownĒ thread. I donít see any reason for you to have some sort of sanctuary of profanity here in the gallery for you to offer ďinflammatory and impoliteĒ statements. The sort of statements that I presume soon would get you silenced on most creationist forums like ARN, Uncommon Descent, or Telic Thoughts. I hope you as a self-declared Christian understand why I find your wish to use the gallery in the way you have indicated a rather hypocritical behaviour.

It has been my experience that creationists, i.e. Christian apologetics most often refuse to meet at fora like AtBC, or talk.origins. As expressed at TT by another Christian, Salvador Cordova: AtBC is a cesspool.

Seems Christians are afraid of becoming contaminated.

What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

--------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself ‚ÄĒ and you are the easiest person to fool.
¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†         Richard Feynman

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,09:49   

Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,05:26)
What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Let's see...Louis, Arden, Carlson and 'Ras, respectively? Interesting. They've been around longer than I thought! I bet they were also from the People's Front of Judea, the bastards.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,10:34   

Christianity can be a defined in a number of ways too. I am a buddhist/christian/atheist. I see them all as compatible. I somehow think this is about biblical inerrancy. Is it? Otherwise, what is it about?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,10:42   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,15:49)
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,05:26)
What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Let's see...Louis, Arden, Carlson and 'Ras, respectively? Interesting. They've been around longer than I thought! I bet they were also from the People's Front of Judea, the bastards.

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA!

*I'm* not the drunkard? Your information is grossly wrong. Wrong enough to border on libel, damn you! I shall not take such defamation lying down*, my Second will call upon you shortly.

God's blood, such calumny cannot be easily borne etc.

Louis

*Unlike, I understand, all your male and female relatives and acquaintances, who take many things lying down with a willingness that skirts close to obscenity.

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,10:55   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,08:42)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,15:49)
 
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,05:26)
What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Let's see...Louis, Arden, Carlson and 'Ras, respectively? Interesting. They've been around longer than I thought! I bet they were also from the People's Front of Judea, the bastards.

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA!

*I'm* not the drunkard? Your information is grossly wrong. Wrong enough to border on libel, damn you! I shall not take such defamation lying down*, my Second will call upon you shortly.

Yeah, can Louis and I switch places? I like the sound of 'glutton'.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,11:04   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,10:42)
 
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,15:49)
†  
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,05:26)
What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Let's see...Louis, Arden, Carlson and 'Ras, respectively? Interesting. They've been around longer than I thought! I bet they were also from the People's Front of Judea, the bastards.

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA!

*I'm* not the drunkard? Your information is grossly wrong. Wrong enough to border on libel, damn you! I shall not take such defamation lying down*, my Second will call upon you shortly.

God's blood, such calumny cannot be easily borne etc.

Louis

*Unlike, I understand, all your male and female relatives and acquaintances, who take many things lying down with a willingness that skirts close to obscenity.

You misread. Jesus is the one being labeled as a glutton and drunkard. I assume you are not claiming to be Jesus--so the passage makes no statement regarding your degree †of inebriation--so your outrage is misplaced.

It says taxpayers and sinners are claimed to be among his friends. In a Venn diagram sense, "taxpayers and sinners" is similar to "wombats and animals" but never the mind.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,11:27   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,09:04)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,10:42)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,15:49)
† †
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,05:26)
What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Let's see...Louis, Arden, Carlson and 'Ras, respectively? Interesting. They've been around longer than I thought! I bet they were also from the People's Front of Judea, the bastards.

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA!

*I'm* not the drunkard? Your information is grossly wrong. Wrong enough to border on libel, damn you! I shall not take such defamation lying down*, my Second will call upon you shortly.

God's blood, such calumny cannot be easily borne etc.

Louis

*Unlike, I understand, all your male and female relatives and acquaintances, who take many things lying down with a willingness that skirts close to obscenity.

You misread. Jesus is the one being labeled as a glutton and drunkard. I assume you are not claiming to be Jesus--so the passage makes no statement regarding your degree †of inebriation--so your outrage is misplaced.

It says taxpayers and sinners are claimed to be among his friends. In a Venn diagram sense, "taxpayers and sinners" is similar to "wombats and animals" but never the mind.

can I still be a drunkard and a glutton?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,11:34   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 15 2009,10:55)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,08:42)
†  
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,15:49)
† †  
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,05:26)
What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Let's see...Louis, Arden, Carlson and 'Ras, respectively? Interesting. They've been around longer than I thought! I bet they were also from the People's Front of Judea, the bastards.

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA!

*I'm* not the drunkard? [snip interminable ranting]

Yeah, can Louis and I switch places? I like the sound of 'glutton'.



 
Quote (BWE @ Sep. 15 2009,11:27)
can I still be a drunkard and a glutton?


-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sirs/Madams:

Western civilization itself is in peril. Chaos and confusion would ensue if people were allowed to change casting willy-nilly. While some of you are accustomed to "switching positions" faster than a Whitehall hooker, if one is allowed, then everyone will want follow.

"Oh, I don't like being Judas, can't I be Simon?" "If I'm Cartaphilus, does that mean I have to keep wandering even after the shooting is over? If so, I want to be Moses; at least his wandering ended at some point "

Look, people, we all have our roles and we're just going to have to suck it up (See Louis' mum for notes on that ) and do our jobs, at least until we wrap or The Rapture -- whichever comes first.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Quack



Posts: 1784
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,11:48   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 15 2009,10:34)
Christianity can be a defined in a number of ways too. I am a buddhist/christian/atheist. I see them all as compatible. I somehow think this is about biblical inerrancy. Is it? Otherwise, what is it about?

To me, †it is not just about inerrancy; it is also about sects, cults and denominations, and a plethora of interpretations.

--------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself ‚ÄĒ and you are the easiest person to fool.
¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†         Richard Feynman

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,12:28   

To me the best working definition of Christian* is one who accepts the historic creeds, e.g., the Nicene creed. It says nothing about when or how or over how long a period God created, only that he did. It says nothing about the end times beyond the fact that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead (which probably includes Louis.)

Anyway, FWIW, that's how I define my circle of orthodoxy--and I believe its radius is fairly large.

-----------
*Since the technical definition: one who is made presentable to God through the righteousness of Jesus is theologically correct and unambiguous, but of little value in a practical sense.

-----------
EDIT: weird typo.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,12:39   

I'll admit that my definition of Christian is not at all mainstream, but here it is:

One who understands and finds grounding in the history and culture of the Jewish faith and people at the time a rabbi by the name of Yeshua bin Yoseph showed up and why some began to preach a different message about the Law according to the Torah.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,12:46   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,17:04)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,10:42)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,15:49)
† †
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,05:26)
What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Let's see...Louis, Arden, Carlson and 'Ras, respectively? Interesting. They've been around longer than I thought! I bet they were also from the People's Front of Judea, the bastards.

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA!

*I'm* not the drunkard? Your information is grossly wrong. Wrong enough to border on libel, damn you! I shall not take such defamation lying down*, my Second will call upon you shortly.

God's blood, such calumny cannot be easily borne etc.

Louis

*Unlike, I understand, all your male and female relatives and acquaintances, who take many things lying down with a willingness that skirts close to obscenity.

You misread. Jesus is the one being labeled as a glutton and drunkard. I assume you are not claiming to be Jesus--so the passage makes no statement regarding your degree †of inebriation--so your outrage is misplaced.

It says taxpayers and sinners are claimed to be among his friends. In a Venn diagram sense, "taxpayers and sinners" is similar to "wombats and animals" but never the mind.

Don't blame me, this is Deadman's mess. ;-)

Louis

P.S. I am not Jesus. I checked. Who knew that all along it was actually *ME* who had the direct access to god and all the absolutely 100% correct religious views etc. Lenny will be so pleased. My pizza boy positively worships me, but he's a bit weird so don't take that too seriously.

P.P.S. I am only counted among the living up until about 8pm on a Friday night. At about 12pm Saturday I am definitely one of the dead. Sunday is spent in limbo. If Jesus El Saviour Chryst is going to judge me at the weekend please can he do so quietly and with alka seltzer or a spare liver.

*Disclaimer: Exaggeration of drinking frequency and general alcholism may have occurred during the making of this post. Actual drinking may not match that shown on the packaging, which is merely a depiction of a drinking suggestion. Anything that Steve Elliot says about me getting him wasted a couple of years ago is almost certainly a lie. Honest.*

--------------
Bye.

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,13:33   

This is, like, the. worst. debate. ever. Not nearly as exciting as Richard Hughes debating Tina Yothers on whether "Gauss' Law" is an acceptable alternative to "Gauss's Law".

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,13:37   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,12:46)
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,17:04)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,10:42)
† †
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,15:49)
† † †
Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,05:26)
What company this man kept:
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Let's see...Louis, Arden, Carlson and 'Ras, respectively? Interesting. They've been around longer than I thought! I bet they were also from the People's Front of Judea, the bastards.

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA!

*I'm* not the drunkard? Your information is grossly wrong. Wrong enough to border on libel, damn you! I shall not take such defamation lying down*, my Second will call upon you shortly.

God's blood, such calumny cannot be easily borne etc.

Louis

*Unlike, I understand, all your male and female relatives and acquaintances, who take many things lying down with a willingness that skirts close to obscenity.

You misread. Jesus is the one being labeled as a glutton and drunkard. I assume you are not claiming to be Jesus--so the passage makes no statement regarding your degree †of inebriation--so your outrage is misplaced.

It says taxpayers and sinners are claimed to be among his friends. In a Venn diagram sense, "taxpayers and sinners" is similar to "wombats and animals" but never the mind.

Don't blame me, this is Deadman's mess. ;-)

Louis

ONLOOKERS!

Once again, notice how the sweet waters of reason have been befouled by Louis poisoning the well. He then gathers the red herrings that float up, to squeeze out †the oil of ad hominem with which he doused a strawman and set it alight, clouding the air with choking black smoke meant to obscure, distract and cause chaos and panic in a hyperbolic, hysterical assault on YOUR senses, dear reader.

Who will you trust? Me, a pious, holy man who has -- Lo, these many years used your tithings to feed thousands of starving crippled orphans -- Or Louis, a troublemaking heathen evildoer and known philatelist??

The choice is clear! Follow your conscience and that loving God that has sent me to guide you.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Stanton



Posts: 266
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,13:42   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,11:04)
You misread. Jesus is the one being labeled as a glutton and drunkard. I assume you are not claiming to be Jesus--so the passage makes no statement regarding your degree †of inebriation--so your outrage is misplaced.

Are you sure that they aren't arguing over being like Jesus, rather than arguing over being Jesus?

  
Stanton



Posts: 266
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,13:49   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,13:33)
This is, like, the. worst. debate. ever. Not nearly as exciting as Richard Hughes debating Tina Yothers on whether "Gauss' Law" is an acceptable alternative to "Gauss's Law".

This is not the worst debate ever:  The worst debate ever was the time this one guy attempted to convince me that the Bible was right because 1) no one could have ever survived an explosion as big as the Big Bang, and 2) recent scientific discoveries (which the gentleman never bothered to specify) were proving the accuracy of the Bible left and right.

Either that, or when this other guy told me that God was going to send me to Hell to suffer for all eternity because I apparently didn't think like him, or because I offered to tutor him when he was whining about how hard the Biology professor was.

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,13:52   

Quote (Stanton @ Sep. 15 2009,13:42)
†  
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,11:04)
You misread. Jesus is the one being labeled as a glutton and drunkard. I assume you are not claiming to be Jesus--so the passage makes no statement regarding your degree †of inebriation--so your outrage is misplaced.

Are you sure that they aren't arguing over being like Jesus, rather than arguing over being Jesus?

They can not be arguing over being like Jesus; at most they argue over being like what Jesus was accused of being, er, like, which is, like, altogether different. That is, while there is ample evidence that Jesus enjoyed a good meal and a glass of wine, as did Calvin and Luther, there is no evidence that he was, in fact, a glutton †and/or a drunkard. With Luther--well let's not go there.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,14:09   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,19:37)
[SNIP]

...known philatelist??

[SNIP]

Those photos of what I was doing with those stamps were doctored. It's a lie I tell you. Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury I ask you, is this the face of a stampophile?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,14:11   

Wait. We're having an awful debate and you are the ones discussing the semantics of a deliberately and obviously frivolous exchange of mild abuse?

Mr Kettle should meet Mr Pot methinks.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 235
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,15:29   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,13:09)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,19:37)
[SNIP]

...known philatelist??

[SNIP]

Those photos of what I was doing with those stamps were doctored. It's a lie I tell you. Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury I ask you, is this the face of a stampophile?

Louis



--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,15:40   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,14:11)
Wait. We're having an awful debate and you are the ones discussing the semantics of a deliberately and obviously frivolous exchange of mild abuse?

Mr Kettle should meet Mr Pot methinks.

Louis

Leave Heddle alone. It's not his fault he hates America so much that he drives a Honda. Then he said English people smell like feet.

P.S. No need to thank me, Heddle. Louis shocked me by claiming American physicists since Feynman are all stupid weenies. His words exactly. He also belongs to the People's Front of Judea, you know.



--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,16:06   

deadman_932

Quote
Leave Heddle alone. It's not his fault he hates America so much that he drives a Honda


WhoaóIím a super patriot. Me and Mrs. Calvinist each have a Honda, and Hondas are made in Ohio and Alabama. Thus we support the Great American Worker, not the capitalist pig-dogs who own the U.S. Car Companies (or is that the government?) †Now, yes, Fords are made in the USóbut way up there in the Maple Leaf State (Canada), and I do not consider Canadians real Americans, because if they were there would be a top-tier NASCAR race in that state. †And Chevyís, if they are still made at all, are made in Mexico or some other net importer to the U.S. (which doesnít narrow it down much.) So donít question my patriotism! Just go ahead and lay your hands on this Pittsburgh Steelers fan!

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Quack



Posts: 1784
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,16:26   

Quote
Keep it Clean!

I just love you guys how clean you keep it as long as no creationist rears his head to stir you up and arouse the kind hearts and loveliness you hide so well...

--------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself ‚ÄĒ and you are the easiest person to fool.
¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†         Richard Feynman

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,16:27   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,16:06)
deadman_932

Quote
Leave Heddle alone. It's not his fault he hates America so much that he drives a Honda


WhoaóIím a super patriot. Me and Mrs. Calvinist each have a Honda, and Hondas are made in Ohio and Alabama. Thus we support the Great American Worker, not the capitalist pig-dogs who own the U.S. Car Companies (or is that the government?) †Now, yes, Fords are made in the USóbut way up there in the Maple Leaf State (Canada), and I do not consider Canadians real Americans, because if they were there would be a top-tier NASCAR race in that state. †And Chevyís, if they are still made at all, are made in Mexico or some other net importer to the U.S. (which doesnít narrow it down much.) So donít question my patriotism! Just go ahead and lay your hands on this Pittsburgh Steelers fan!

American cars are shoite, though.

I have a ickle soft spot for the old GT-40s, but that's about it.



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JohnW



Posts: 2293
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,17:05   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,14:06)
Just go ahead and lay your hands on this Pittsburgh Steelers fan!

I think this went to the wrong forum, Heddle.  This is ATBC.  Sara Palin doesn't post here.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,17:08   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 15 2009,17:05)
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,14:06)
Just go ahead and lay your hands on this Pittsburgh Steelers fan!

I think this went to the wrong forum, Heddle. †This is ATBC. †Sara Palin doesn't post here.

But she might. I'm waiting. Once, on TV, she winked at me!

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,17:14   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 15 2009,16:27)
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,16:06)
deadman_932

† †
Quote
Leave Heddle alone. It's not his fault he hates America so much that he drives a Honda


WhoaóIím a super patriot. Me and Mrs. Calvinist each have a Honda, and Hondas are made in Ohio and Alabama. Thus we support the Great American Worker, not the capitalist pig-dogs who own the U.S. Car Companies (or is that the government?) †Now, yes, Fords are made in the USóbut way up there in the Maple Leaf State (Canada), and I do not consider Canadians real Americans, because if they were there would be a top-tier NASCAR race in that state. †And Chevyís, if they are still made at all, are made in Mexico or some other net importer to the U.S. (which doesnít narrow it down much.) So donít question my patriotism! Just go ahead and lay your hands on this Pittsburgh Steelers fan!

American cars are shoite, though.

I have a ickle soft spot for the old GT-40s, but that's about it.


And I have a soft spot for the old cars of the English. Of course it has to be the old cars since they don't make any new cars. Who owns Jaguar? who owns Land Rover? India? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Chad?

Disgraceful!

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
someotherguy



Posts: 367
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,17:56   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,17:08)
Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 15 2009,17:05)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,14:06)
Just go ahead and lay your hands on this Pittsburgh Steelers fan!

I think this went to the wrong forum, Heddle. †This is ATBC. †Sara Palin doesn't post here.

But she might. I'm waiting. Once, on TV, she winked at me!

I'm experiencing starbusts just at the thought of it!

--------------
Evolander in training

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,18:16   

Quote (dheddle @ Sep. 15 2009,23:14)
[SNIP]

And I have a soft spot for the old cars of the English. Of course it has to be the old cars since they don't make any new cars. Who owns Jaguar? who owns Land Rover? India? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Chad?

Disgraceful!

Morgan? Noble?

Louis

P.S. I would have said Lotus and TVR in years gone by, but alas, no more. Either way, our manufacturing economy has been thoroughly buggered.

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,18:18   

Quote (Quack @ Sep. 15 2009,22:26)
Quote
Keep it Clean!

I just love you guys how clean you keep it as long as no creationist rears his head to stir you up and arouse the kind hearts and loveliness you hide so well...

Thank you....wait....you take that back! ;-)

Louis

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Bye.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,18:26   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,12:46)
Anything that Steve Elliot says about me getting him wasted a couple of years ago is almost certainly a lie. Honest.*

Agreed! You did not get me wasted. The tequila did that. All you did was to buy a few doubles and persuade this idiot to drink them.

F-Kin chemists!

  
nmgirl



Posts: 92
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,18:51   

Hey, I logged in here for FL's great debate.  Where is his indisputible proof that christianity and evilution are incompatible.  Enquiring minds want to know!

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,19:07   

Quote (nmgirl @ Sep. 15 2009,18:51)
Hey, I logged in here for FL's great debate. †Where is his indisputible proof that christianity and evilution are incompatible. †Enquiring minds want to know!

Welcome nmgirl †

You will never see a great debate here between creationism and science. Creationists tend to be too scared to post outside of a rigorously moderated site. Not all, just most.

  
Stanton



Posts: 266
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,20:15   

Quote (nmgirl @ Sep. 15 2009,18:51)
Hey, I logged in here for FL's great debate. †Where is his indisputible proof that christianity and evilution are incompatible. †Enquiring minds want to know!

Cthullhu will awaken, have itself a glass of warm something or other, then go back to sleep, or worse yet, Carol Burnett will finally admit she isn't a natural redhead before FL will actually produce evidence for the incompatibility between Christianity and evilution.

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,20:38   

Quote
Hey, I logged in here for FL's great debate.  Where is his indisputible proof that christianity and evilution are incompatible.  Enquiring minds want to know!

Don't worry about it. Once somebody points out that Christianity includes a huge number of sects with widely divergent opinions on the details, and that proving that one of those sects is inconsistent with something doesn't prove it for the rest of them, the debate is pretty much over at that point.

Henry

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,21:42   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 15 2009,18:26)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,12:46)
Anything that Steve Elliot says about me getting him wasted a couple of years ago is almost certainly a lie. Honest.*

Agreed! You did not get me wasted. The tequila did that. All you did was to buy a few doubles and persuade this idiot to drink them.

F-Kin chemists!

One word, Steve: "roofies."

NEVER trust a chemist -- preverts to a man.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Keelyn



Posts: 40
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,22:57   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 15 2009,21:38)
Quote
Hey, I logged in here for FL's great debate. †Where is his indisputible proof that christianity and evilution are incompatible. †Enquiring minds want to know!

Don't worry about it. Once somebody points out that Christianity includes a huge number of sects with widely divergent opinions on the details, and that proving that one of those sects is inconsistent with something doesn't prove it for the rest of them, the debate is pretty much over at that point.

Henry


You are being reasonable, Henry. I don't think reason is enough to stop FL.

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This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. -- Wolfgang Pauli

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. -- Mark Twain

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,23:39   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Sep. 15 2009,22:42)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 15 2009,18:26)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 15 2009,12:46)
Anything that Steve Elliot says about me getting him wasted a couple of years ago is almost certainly a lie. Honest.*

Agreed! You did not get me wasted. The tequila did that. All you did was to buy a few doubles and persuade this idiot to drink them.

F-Kin chemists!

One word, Steve: "roofies."

NEVER trust a chemist -- preverts to a man.

yeah if loose can't be perverted to a man he'll be perverted to a goat or a shop vac.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2009,23:45   

ONLOOKERS.

1. HEDDLE:=>



HAR HAR THIS IS YOUR 'CAR'. USA! USA!

2. HEDDLE: =>



all together now:

Oh you'll never get to heaven
(Oh you'll never get to heaven)
In Heddle's car
(In Heddle's car)
'cause Heddle's car
('cause Heddle's car)
Wont go that far.
(Wont go that far.)

Happy-clappy Christians, take note. 'my god is an awesome god' is the worst song ever. If I was god, I obviously wouldn't have a hell, because RichardTHughes *is* love, but for folks that make shoite songs like that about me there would be something unsavoury, like a menage a trios with Tarden and Carlson.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,00:52   

sigh

cover that space on the bingo card.

Quote
Tard
Most importantly, as we've already seen, people ARE slipping through the cracks, losing their faith because evolution is incompatible with Christianity---and if you lose your Christian faith, if like Darwin you can't even believe in Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the Cross anymore, what will happen to you after you die???

So, we must needs continue examining this issue.  Too much at stake, honestly.  After all, you and I can't hide behind Asa Gray's skirts on Judgment Day!



compare that with


 
Quote
Tard
Oh no no, don't get me wrong dude. †I didn't come here to save anybody. †You wanna be Old Scratch's next piece of Pitchfork Shish-Ka-Bobbed Rump-Roast, I'm not gonna git in your way at all!

Shoot, if savin' you guys were my intention up in here, I'd be all polite and circumspect in my choice of words within this peanut thread. †Heh!




Silly Tard. †

what makes your "religious beliefs"... ah fuck it.

Floyd Lee is the Herbert Kornfeld of IDC.

and any grown up not in a period costume at a civil war reenactment has no business saying "Old Scratch". †you give Poe a bad name

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,01:09   

Quote
And now, let's start off with FOUR very serious, very documented, reasons why evolution is incompatible with Christianity.

1.  In biblical Christianity, God is the REQUIRED explanation for the origins and existence of all biological objects (plants, animals, humans, etc) on earth, and He is the REQUIRED explanation for the origins and existence of the stars, the planets, the sun, the moon, and all other cosmological objects -- indeed, the entire universe.  The Bible is very clear on this point.

(See Genesis 1:1, Genesis chapters 1 and 2, and see Colossians 1:16, for example.  Also see John chapter 1:3 ---  "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.")

In contrast, evolution specifically denies that God is the REQUIRED explanation for said origins.


Psst, Hey Floyd.  Someone should tell you how babies are made.  There ain't no God in it.  Unless your god is a penis or a vagina etc.  If that is the sort of explanation REQUIRED by the bible then the bible REQUIRES FAIL.  I'd be happy to explain this to you via PM if you have never had a chance to see how it works first hand.  I think Arden's mom has a video.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,01:15   

you know what else doesn't have a goal, Floyd?

oatmeal.

that's right.

yet it exists. †

thus you disprove evilution.

For anyone not blinded by the tard, does
Quote
But evolutionary theory does not admit anticipation of the future (i.e. conscious forethought), either in the process of evolution of an adaptive characteristic or in the development of or behavior of an individual organism."


somehow equal

Quote
the process of evolution that resulted in the origination of the first humans on Earth DOES NOT ADMIT any conscious forethought, any purposefulness or any goal-directedness at ANY point of said evolutionary process, including the point where humans appear. †NO EXCEPTIONS.


?

Answer: †No, hell no only someone who despises truth says such things. †

Begorrah.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,01:40   

Quote
Do you see this, people? †DO you? †
This is a direct head-on CRASH

That's for sure.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,03:50   

Quote
Who cares if evolution is incompatible with Christianity (or Islam, or Zoroastrianism, or Pastafarianism, for that matter)?


Go visit Eugenie Scott's NCSE website when you get a chance to, Albatrossity.

Or go visit the National Academy of Science's website and read their latest edition of Science, Evolution, and Creationism. †Use the following link:

http://books.nap.edu/html/11876/SECbrochure.pdf

Or take a look at Freeman and Herron's evolutionary biology textbook Evolutionary Analysis 4th edition.

All these evolutionists, and many more, are trying very VERY hard to sell people on the (demonstrably false) notion that evolution is somehow compatible with Christianity. †
You can find clear examples of this sales effort, within each of those sources I mentioned.

So when you ask "Who cares....", take a good hard look at your own evolutionist side of the fence and ask why your own comrades care so much. †After all, they clearly do!!

FloydLee

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,04:01   

Quote
There it is - not even one "alternate version" of christianity, only FL's version.
No alternate interpretations of the Bible, only FL's One True Interpretation.


In this forum, you are free to provide everybody with your own "interpretation", presumably one in which biblical Christianity can be demonstrated to be compatible with evolution, particularly with macroevolution (see the definitions I supplied in the main debate thread.)

Just relax, sit down, and type out your alternate interpretation. †Then we can go to the Bible together in this debate forum and see how well the Scriptural data, the biblical texts and their contexts, supports the "alternate interpretation" that you currently subscribe to.

That's certainly a rational approach, and it can be equally and even-handedly applied to both "my interpretation" and "your interpretation." †

Do you wish to give it a try? †Is there an "alternate interpretation" you've got that, in light of the biblical data, reconciles evolution and Christianity?

FloydLee

  
Quack



Posts: 1784
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,04:09   

Iíve already expressed my misgivings regarding this Ďventureí and it is turning out even worse than feared.

I donít find much of this:
† † † † † †  
Quote
(1.) †First, Iím going to combine ďEvolution is incompatible with ChristianityĒ and ďThe Biblical Perspective on BiologyĒ and write about BOTH items under the overall topic ďEvolution is Incompatible with Christianity.Ē

in this:

 
Quote
Won't lie to you, Dan---Mr. Darwin AIN'T my patron saint, and you should not look for me to speak reverently of him at all times, not even in this main debate thread where I'm committed to civility. †
Besides, the promised civility applies to you and all the posters/readers here. † Didn't promise anything to Darwin.

Now, I won't do any blatant insults on him, but for me "Big Daddy Chuck Darwin" is within the boundaries. †
I do not owe him any reverence---and quite frankly, given what he said about black folks in The Descent Of Man, I honestly think I'm being too lenient on his butt anyway.

Darwin has been dead for quite some time and I canít see how whatever ideas most white people had about black people 150 years ago are relevant wrt evolution vs. Christianity.

But, if thatís the way it is going to be, I presume the genocidial maniac Yahweh of the OT is fair game too. He certainly is incompatible with my Christianity.

I wonít even repeat FLís stupid and childish words about Darwin and parts of his anatomy ĖĖ but they tell me a lot about FL. In any case they are entirely off topic, but from what Iíve seen of FL so far, that is not much of a concern with him.
† †  
Quote
Now I have promised to be civil, respectful and circumspect about it all in the main debate thread, and I will very seriously keep that promise.

I consider Darwin a part of 'it allí but I see that FL has his own definition of it all.

Circumspect: watchful and discreet; cautious; prudent. The DELETE button on my keyboard often has saved me from making a bigger fool of myself than I already am.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself ‚ÄĒ and you are the easiest person to fool.
¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†         Richard Feynman

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,04:11   

empty for now

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Cubist



Posts: 352
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,05:16   

Quote (FloydLee @ Sep. 16 2009,04:01)
 
Quote
There it is - not even one "alternate version" of christianity, only FL's version.
No alternate interpretations of the Bible, only FL's One True Interpretation.
Is there an "alternate interpretation" you've got that, in light of the biblical data, reconciles evolution and Christianity?
I don't happen to have such an interpretation myself... but then, I'm also not a Believer, so I think it would be unfair to expect that of me. So please allow me to cite a very definitely Christian gent named Glenn Morton, who
does have such an interpretation. Perhaps you might be good enough to check out Morton's harmonization of science with Christianity, and identify any errors Morton may have committed?

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007