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BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2011,22:30   

There is no way I am letting this one go. Blind faith, fundamentalism and hate speech are always good targets for mockery.

Kristine, I'm sorry about your friend. His head got too big for his brain. Redemption requires apology and taking responsibility for the attitudes he created.

PZ is Dembski.

In before Louis' "No u."

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
George



Posts: 312
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,03:40   

Quote (Badger3k @ Nov. 27 2011,14:00)
Well, I think mockery has it's place - but it depends on what you want to achieve (do you want to change someone's mind, "convert" them, or just do it for the lawlz).

Absolutely, and that's what I've been trying to say.  Not that religion is special and shouldn't be subjected to teh mean.  I'm querying the usefulness of that approach in most situations.  In the post BWE refers to at the beginning, PZ spends a little time on the ice cream guy's apology, but much more berating other bloggers for suggesting honey be used rather than vinegar.  It seems mockery is more important for him than changing people's minds.  

The point isn't "PZ is teh mean" the point is "what are the results of teh meanness?"  He seems to be happy with a cheering choir at the expense of real engagement.

  
George



Posts: 312
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,03:43   

Quote (BWE @ Nov. 27 2011,22:30)
PZ is Dembski.

Not really.  Dembski is slippery and devious, never says what he means, and gets others to do his dirty work.  PZ is always up front with what he says.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,03:56   

Quote
He seems to be happy with a cheering choir at the expense of real engagement.


Not so much at the moment (cf Bunnygate)...


ETA: I think PZ has redeemed himself a bit in the Bunny Incident by directly challenging the most extreme views his sycophants try to champion. For this alone he's gone back up a bit in my opinion.

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,08:44   

Quote (BWE @ Nov. 27 2011,22:30)
There is no way I am letting this one go. Blind faith, fundamentalism and hate speech are always good targets for mockery.

Kristine, I'm sorry about your friend. His head got too big for his brain. Redemption requires apology and taking responsibility for the attitudes he created.

PZ is Dembski.

In before Louis' "No u."

I think that comparing PZ to Dembski is a tad off-the-mark. PZ forms his opinions on reality, I do not think he is deliberately misleading people.

While I accept that PZ has the right to formulate and express the opinions he has. IMO, the ice-cream guy seems like a fairly decent bloke who reacted in a way he genuinely regrets. Demanding an apology by >100 million Christians before accepting that individual's apology looks like a school-yard rant to me.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,09:17   

You're my friend too, BWE.

Well, if "PZ is Dembski," then Madalyn Murray-O'Hair definitely was, too. I stayed away from joining any atheist groups largely because of her. Now she's dead, but atheism is still alive. So, I do not know what "post atheism" means. This is not called the Post PZ thread.

Of course people can do stupid things in the name of atheism. The creation of abstract thought itself gave rise to the ability to fight over abstractions.

This is why I keep saying that being an atheist is the least important thing about me. It is not a worldview in the sense that being a believer in a certain religion is. There is no less than an infinite number of things that I don't believe in - and that is true for everyone, atheists and believers alike. I live with many uncertainties and "gaps" in my "worldview."

To be perfectly frank, I don't know why I or Lou cannot also be considered atheist spokespeople. Both of us went back to school for a mid-life career change, yes, so some of us are late bloomers but we both intend to make our mark.

Will Dembski's and Behe's followers (and followers they are) likewise strike out on their own, or just continue to wave Intelligent Design and Darwin's Black Box like tracts?

ID advocates who called me a "Dawkins follower" also made me laugh.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,09:25   

Quote
ID advocates who called me a "Dawkins follower" also made me laugh.


Oh, c'mon! You followed him [citation needed] all the way to Galapagos!

Murray-O'Hair was the one who sued the Apollo IX crew for reading Genesis 1:1 on Christmas day while orbiting the moon, right? Because I still think to this day it was a richard move on her part.


ETA: ok, it was Apollo VIII...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10063
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,09:31   



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1005
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,09:38   

In reading through this thread and the other one regarding feminism, it occurs to me that there has never, to my knowledge, been a significant social movement that wasn't created and to some extent sustained by "radicals."  Large-scale social change happens because of noisy people who refuse to shut up, and who invariably offend some people who might be sympathetic in general.

The current complaint about PZ is typical and predictable.  It's helpful in such cases to look at the cumulative effects of the hyperbole (which is what the gelato man business is), rather than getting excited about individual instances.

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,09:48   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,09:38)
In reading through this thread and the other one regarding feminism, it occurs to me that there has never, to my knowledge, been a significant social movement that wasn't created and to some extent sustained by "radicals." †Large-scale social change happens because of noisy people who refuse to shut up, and who invariably offend some people who might be sympathetic in general.

The current complaint about PZ is typical and predictable. †It's helpful in such cases to look at the cumulative effects of the hyperbole (which is what the gelato man business is), rather than getting excited about individual instances.

Isn't that approaching an "end justifies the means" argument? Is it OK to vilify an individual for the greater good? It seems like a scapegoat/set-an-example thing to me and I am uncomfortable about that.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,09:49   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 28 2011,16:31)

This deserves at least a tip of the hat, if not a POtW...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,10:02   

Well, until PZ states otherwise, I see no reason to differentiate between the statements of his followers and those of him. And they have made it quite clear that it is unacceptable to accept anything less than changing the beliefs of {insert target of thoughtcrime},

PZ may not be dishonest like dembski yet, but as soon as being right takes precedence over being decent, the rest of the road is about the same. If he is willing to defend and rationalize one act of intolerance and bigotry, then as it gets more difficult to justify, he will use dishonest tactics.

Narcissism is well trodden territory. No one is strong enough to walk as far in as PZ has and not become dishonest if they decide to stay. If he finds a dose of humility, perhaps he can avoid the pitfall, but morton's demon is cruel to it's victims.

And, by the way, in terms of civil rights violations, you all know that there wasn't one, right? Also, in the unit where I use Letter From the Birmingham Jail, I also use this:
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-k....ech.php

It adds an important dimension to the concept.

ETA: Thank you Kristine. I don't see this as a black and white issue even though I am aware it looks that way. I am back at work today with a real computer and real internet access so I will attempt to compose something with a bit more nuance today.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,10:10   

Quote
Well, until PZ states otherwise, I see no reason to differentiate between the statements of his followers and those of him. And they have made it quite clear that it is unacceptable to accept anything less than changing the beliefs of {insert target of thoughtcrime},


I have to disagree with that statement. You cannot condemn PZ for the vileness of his comenntariat. Well, not directly. Non-refutal is not endorsment. Else, Abbie, for exemple, would be totaly guilty and accountable for every posts at her place (including Byron's!!!), and we, as rational beings, can't have that!

Oh, wait...

Ok, I guess I see your point.

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1005
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,10:11   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 28 2011,09:48)
Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,09:38)
In reading through this thread and the other one regarding feminism, it occurs to me that there has never, to my knowledge, been a significant social movement that wasn't created and to some extent sustained by "radicals." †Large-scale social change happens because of noisy people who refuse to shut up, and who invariably offend some people who might be sympathetic in general.

The current complaint about PZ is typical and predictable. †It's helpful in such cases to look at the cumulative effects of the hyperbole (which is what the gelato man business is), rather than getting excited about individual instances.

Isn't that approaching an "end justifies the means" argument? Is it OK to vilify an individual for the greater good? It seems like a scapegoat/set-an-example thing to me and I am uncomfortable about that.

I made an observation regarding the historical role of radical thinkers/speakers in social change. Such observation doesn't imply endorsement of any particular method or action.  In the present case I don't think that anyone has been harmed, or will be harmed, by PZ calling a bigot a bigot.

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,10:55   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 28 2011,08:10)
Quote
Well, until PZ states otherwise, I see no reason to differentiate between the statements of his followers and those of him. And they have made it quite clear that it is unacceptable to accept anything less than changing the beliefs of {insert target of thoughtcrime},


I have to disagree with that statement. You cannot condemn PZ for the vileness of his comenntariat. Well, not directly. Non-refutal is not endorsment. Else, Abbie, for exemple, would be totaly guilty and accountable for every posts at her place (including Byron's!!!), and we, as rational beings, can't have that!

Oh, wait...

Ok, I guess I see your point.

I directly asked PZ to take responsibility for them or make it clear he would not. He chose the first in a direct reply to me.

ETA: among the sanctioned posts, janine wrote:
All I want for Andy is that he is so deeply shamed that he rethinks what he believes.

Um..

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,11:13   

I'm with Louis pretty much all the way on this one. If you want to show Pharyngula is a cult, cough up the evidence. So far, nothing. This is basically a tone troll argument.

And there is no such thing as an atheist fundamentalist. Reading that phrase used seriously makes me want to dismiss out of hand everything the writer says. The attempt to equate the dictionary to a religious text is beyond silly - almost as silly as comparing Pharyngula to Uncommon Descent.

I don't comment on Pharyngula much. I have no dog in this fight. But where there's a consensus there among the regular commentariat that's a pretty good sign there's something in it. No fanboyism here, no cult-worship - just standing back and examining substance rather than tone.

  
Robin



Posts: 1427
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,11:16   

Quote (Louis @ Nov. 24 2011,20:16)
However that sign came about I hope we'd both agree that it's a pretty clear example of a discriminatory sign. The sign that this chap put up, for whatever reason, took the same form. The sentiments expressed in the sign are explicitly discriminatory however they came about.

Sure the guy reacted hotheadedly and poorly, and whatever reaction people have to that is theirs to have, let them have it, but it doesn't detract from the fact that his sign, his act was one of discrimination.

This act didn't occur in a vacuum, the greater social context genuinely matters. This guy felt perfectly entitled to exclude people from his business for their difference from him. He wasn't attacked IN his business, he wasn't attacked personally, he wasn't actually attacked at all. He simply exists in a society where the questioning of people's religion and the religious privilege (tax breaks etc, the standard stuff) that exists is frowned upon. It is socially awkward. Go and read the MLK quote I posted above, it's not like this is a new or unique problem. The form that every minority group challenging every majority group follows is roughly this one. None of this is a surprise.

Again, as mentioned above, there exists in the USA a culture where atheists are discriminated against. Granted that discrimination is usually not that serious and certainly not as serious as that that previous and current minority groups experience. Imagine if this guy had noticed the speaker that so offended him was black, or gay, or a woman, and put up a sign saying "black/gay/female Skepticon people are not welcome in my Christian shop". I don't think he'd have got away with THAT so lightly! And rightly so.

There were times when similar signs put in doors (no Blacks, no dogs, no Irish). This was socially accepted, part of normal society. People felt entitled to do this. As rash as this guy was, this guy felt entitled to do it. I doubt he would have felt entitled to make the analogous signs above that I mentioned (even if they had been relevant). The reason being is that those sorts of signs are now less socially acceptable. Sure, they're probably acceptable somewhere, but I'd guess an urban environment isn't one of them. Open discrimination against atheists is still tolerated in the USA (and elsewhere). It's socially acceptable by and large. This hotheaded act would have been vastly less likely in a society where such an act was beyond the pale.

Louis

I disagree with you on this one Louis. I see this incident completely different I guess.

My problem with PZ's (and other folks' for that matter) assessment is that I really don't see Gelatoguy's action as discriminatory. Given the facts, no one was actually discriminated against. Further, I don't even get the impression the guy knew Skepticon was specifically an atheistic event; rather it seems to me he reacted to a perception of personal rudeness and in a heat of passion wanted to prevent rude people from entering his shop. He even noted how appreciative he was of all the "polite" people from the conference who came by.

I'm in no position to read the man's heart and determine if the guy is actually a Christian bigot or anti-atheism or whathaveyou. All I can go on are the facts as presented. Nothing in the actual facts demonstrates any kind of actual discrimination to me from Gelatoguy. On the contrary, the only person I see engaging in discrimination is PZ by refusing to accept the guy's apology based PZ's perception of the guy's Christian Privilege. That just smacks of irony to me.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,11:24   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13)
I'm with Louis pretty much all the way on this one. If you want to show Pharyngula is a cult, cough up the evidence. So far, nothing. This is basically a tone troll argument.

And there is no such thing as an atheist fundamentalist. Reading that phrase used seriously makes me want to dismiss out of hand everything the writer says. The attempt to equate the dictionary to a religious text is beyond silly - almost as silly as comparing Pharyngula to Uncommon Descent.

I don't comment on Pharyngula much. I have no dog in this fight. But where there's a consensus there among the regular commentariat that's a pretty good sign there's something in it. No fanboyism here, no cult-worship - just standing back and examining substance rather than tone.

Roland: just go check what's going on at Bunnygate. See people first cheering PZ for his postion, then all of a sudden make a 180į turn because some regular points something they have missed that endangers the "dogma". Even PZ is getting tired of this, it seems...


ETA: this is, of course, not fundamentalist atheism, but fundamentalist/radical feminism, which IMO has nothing to do with skepticism or atheism. That's another battle. Read Marcotte, and then cry...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,11:52   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 28 2011,11:24)
Roland: just go check what's going on at Bunnygate. See people first cheering PZ for his postion, then all of a sudden make a 180į turn because some regular points something they have missed that endangers the "dogma". Even PZ is getting tired of this, it seems...


ETA: this is, of course, not fundamentalist atheism, but fundamentalist/radical feminism, which IMO has nothing to do with skepticism or atheism. That's another battle. Read Marcotte, and then cry...

I've read a fair bit of Bunnygate and I can't see cultish behaviour I'm afraid. Point something specific out and tell me why it's cultish. In so doing you will need to address the substance of what's being said, as I need hardly add that if what someone is saying is true and can be backed up by evidence, then this is a good defence against accusations of cultishness.

Fundamentalist feminism eh? Sorry, you'll need to back that one up too. Unless you can point to someone arguing furiously that X is true because Simone de Beauvoir said X and not providing any other justification - and furthermore being supported by the rest of the commentariat who try to silence everyone else -  then I'm afraid it's not going to fly.

Why do you dislike what you see as "fundamentalist feminism"? If you're interested in pursuing this line, give me some examples of what you mean and why you don't like it - from Pharyngula if you like. I'm curious as to your reasoning. Feel free to ignore me if you like though :-)

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,12:01   

Roland: I will admit to being a bit tired to do the research work for you, but this small exemple by Tis'Himself should help you understand what I mean:

Quote
Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isnít sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, youíre all so sure itís not sexist, so give us some evidence itís pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege?


Now, what do you think is wrong with this comment? Because, "Roland" you are having a very sexist attitude right now, what with you being named "Roland". This is not pro-women at all!

I do acknowledge that we have diferences in our views, I do acknoweldge that I'm wrong on many things, but one thing I'm not wrong about is the crazy dogmatic view of the FFTB regulars. Do your research!

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,12:08   

"Fundamentalism" does not necessarily equal fanaticism. Fundamentalist Christianity referred to a presumed return to the "fundamentals" of that faith as set out by John Nelson Darby. Now, of course that set up a cognitive dissonance within the minds of believers as they confronted the scientific evidence for evolution, and that gave rise to their fanaticism.

When Stephen Jay Gould accused Dawkins of being a fundamentalist atheist, he was referring to fanaticism. I think that Gould was wrong, but I am not inclined to dismiss, given my definition above, the existence of a fundamentalist atheism - I'm just wondering what it would look like.

I write best when the discussion is grounded in concrete data/examples - the Bunnygate, Elevatorgate, and other blow-ups are abstract gobbledygook and excruciatingly pettifoggic quibbling to me. It reminds me of the discussion on morality that Rev. Barky and I tried to have with a humanist (although this was much more civil) - said humanist defined each abstraction in terms of other abstractions and I just could not follow him. I am an intelligent adult and yet I cannot get through Paul Kurtz's latest writings. I am not a philosopher, at least, not in the sense of having opinions in a vacuum. I try not to have opinions without evidence.

If the reliance upon concrete examples/data/case studies is a fundamental of atheism, then I am a "fundamentalist atheist." I need a discussion to be grounded in facts. When people ask me what I believe, I feel like pulling out my hair. I try not to have beliefs (but then you get the predictable, "You mean you don't believe in anything?" in a shocked voice - no, no, no, I am trying to be precise). What's the point of having an opinion? It's like screaming when you're scared - what good does it do? (I'm not a screamer.) :)

What is happening at Pharyngula is not so different than the unbelievably vociferous discussions that I have seen at Black Dahlia message boards or any online discussion involving Casey Anthony. It just enrages people when I say that, "Well, she could have killed her daughter, and she probably did, but she was acquitted so I must act as if she is [just as I presumed her to be] innocent." Rationality is a process, not an opinion. Dare I say that it is (or should be) a fundamental? (And of what?) ;)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,12:43   

Ok, "fanatic" then. Remember ---> english not first language. But the message is there, right?

Right?

Where's that bloody muso thread again? At least that's a place I can contribute without stepping on my own fingers...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,13:44   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 28 2011,12:43)
Ok, "fanatic" then. Remember ---> english not first language. But the message is there, right?

Right?

Where's that bloody muso thread again? At least that's a place I can contribute without stepping on my own fingers...

No, no, I'm not picking on you! :D Just thinking out loud. Forgivez-moi. ;)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,14:19   

Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 28 2011,20:44)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 28 2011,12:43)
Ok, "fanatic" then. Remember ---> english not first language. But the message is there, right?

Right?

Where's that bloody muso thread again? At least that's a place I can contribute without stepping on my own fingers...

No, no, I'm not picking on you! :D Just thinking out loud. Forgivez-moi. ;)

Sorry, have to lulz on the "forgivez moi".

There, it's done. One of the sweetest things I've seen on this thread so far.

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,14:48   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 28 2011,12:01)
Roland: I will admit to being a bit tired to do the research work for you, but this small exemple by Tis'Himself should help you understand what I mean:

Quote
Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isnít sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, youíre all so sure itís not sexist, so give us some evidence itís pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege?


Now, what do you think is wrong with this comment? Because, "Roland" you are having a very sexist attitude right now, what with you being named "Roland". This is not pro-women at all!

I do acknowledge that we have diferences in our views, I do acknoweldge that I'm wrong on many things, but one thing I'm not wrong about is the crazy dogmatic view of the FFTB regulars. Do your research!

You're the one who's asserting Pharyngula has been taken over by fundamentalist feminists - I was thinking you might have done the research yourself before making the assertion. And if that's the best evidence you can come up with even at a cursory glance then I'm sorry I'm not convinced.

I don't think your point that I have a man's name is terribly relevant.

Again, I didn't assert that the FTB regulars' view is crazy and dogmatic, you did. So you do the research. Convince me. I am perfectly ready to be convinced.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,15:00   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 28 2011,21:48)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 28 2011,12:01)
Roland: I will admit to being a bit tired to do the research work for you, but this small exemple by Tis'Himself should help you understand what I mean:

 
Quote
Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isnít sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, youíre all so sure itís not sexist, so give us some evidence itís pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege?


Now, what do you think is wrong with this comment? Because, "Roland" you are having a very sexist attitude right now, what with you being named "Roland". This is not pro-women at all!

I do acknowledge that we have diferences in our views, I do acknoweldge that I'm wrong on many things, but one thing I'm not wrong about is the crazy dogmatic view of the FFTB regulars. Do your research!

You're the one who's asserting Pharyngula has been taken over by fundamentalist feminists - I was thinking you might have done the research yourself before making the assertion. And if that's the best evidence you can come up with even at a cursory glance then I'm sorry I'm not convinced.

I don't think your point that I have a man's name is terribly relevant.

Again, I didn't assert that the FTB regulars' view is crazy and dogmatic, you did. So you do the research. Convince me. I am perfectly ready to be convinced.

Reading comprehension much? I never said you asserted anything.

I DO assert that Pharyngula has been taken over by radical feminists. Yep, I totaly own up to that. Whatever PZ does about it is his own problem. Want to go check what Skeptifem (one of PZ and Watson's "allies") has to say about feminism?

Quote
"Q: Do you hate men?

A: Most of them, because of what most men do. Most men watch pornography (like ninety effing percent). Men are the vast majority of violent criminals (including rapists), johns, and world ruining politicians. Men are the vast majority of religious figures who teach things like male supremacy and obedience to husbands. Men are the vast majority of gropers, flashers, and cat callers. It isn't that I blame men who don't do this stuff for the actions of men who do, but most men don't seem to see anything wrong with it. The vast majority think that the milder behaviors in this list are totally acceptable and in effect endorse the shitty behavior of other men by not speaking up about it.

Almost all men are brought up to idealize violent masculine dudes (He-Man, Rambo, football players, the punisher, superman, etc). A rare man can stop listening to the cultural programming and act decent, but I assume a man is a sexist jerk until he proves otherwise. It is for my own personal safety and sanity. "


Or Marcotte (another of their allies)?

Quote
I've been sort of casually listening to CNN blaring throughout the waiting area and good fucking god is that channel pure evil. For awhile, I had to listen to how the poor dear lacrosse players at Duke are being persecuted just because they held someone down and fucked her against her willónot rape, of course, because the charges have been thrown out. Canít a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it? So unfair.


To note: the plaintif in the Lacrosse case was lying all along...

Shall we continue with PZ's allies?

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,15:19   

And a quick one before this thread degenerates:

I don't care personaly who PZ teams up with. His choices. But if THAT's supposed to be "atheism", count me out!

Atheism is the lack of belief in a superior being, end of story. I might be left, you may be right, maybe the opposite, I don(t give a fuck!

Clear enough?

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,15:51   

Quote
"Q: Do you hate men?

A: Most of them, because of what most men do. Most men watch pornography (like ninety effing percent). Men are the vast majority of violent criminals (including rapists), johns, and world ruining politicians. Men are the vast majority of religious figures who teach things like male supremacy and obedience to husbands. Men are the vast majority of gropers, flashers, and cat callers. It isn't that I blame men who don't do this stuff for the actions of men who do, but most men don't seem to see anything wrong with it. The vast majority think that the milder behaviors in this list are totally acceptable and in effect endorse the shitty behavior of other men by not speaking up about it.

Almost all men are brought up to idealize violent masculine dudes (He-Man, Rambo, football players, the punisher, superman, etc). A rare man can stop listening to the cultural programming and act decent, but I assume a man is a sexist jerk until he proves otherwise. It is for my own personal safety and sanity. "


Holy wow! †Hope that woman is a lesbian. †Gotta check out her blog...sheesh. †That's some crazy, right there.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,15:56   

Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 28 2011,22:51)
Quote
"Q: Do you hate men?

A: Most of them, because of what most men do. Most men watch pornography (like ninety effing percent). Men are the vast majority of violent criminals (including rapists), johns, and world ruining politicians. Men are the vast majority of religious figures who teach things like male supremacy and obedience to husbands. Men are the vast majority of gropers, flashers, and cat callers. It isn't that I blame men who don't do this stuff for the actions of men who do, but most men don't seem to see anything wrong with it. The vast majority think that the milder behaviors in this list are totally acceptable and in effect endorse the shitty behavior of other men by not speaking up about it.

Almost all men are brought up to idealize violent masculine dudes (He-Man, Rambo, football players, the punisher, superman, etc). A rare man can stop listening to the cultural programming and act decent, but I assume a man is a sexist jerk until he proves otherwise. It is for my own personal safety and sanity. "


Holy wow! †Hope that woman is a lesbian. †Gotta check out her blog...sheesh. †That's some crazy, right there.

Nope, seems she has a boyfriend...

And when FTK and I concure, there is quantum fuck up already!

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2011,17:39   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,10:11)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 28 2011,09:48)
†  
Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 28 2011,09:38)
In reading through this thread and the other one regarding feminism, it occurs to me that there has never, to my knowledge, been a significant social movement that wasn't created and to some extent sustained by "radicals." †Large-scale social change happens because of noisy people who refuse to shut up, and who invariably offend some people who might be sympathetic in general.

The current complaint about PZ is typical and predictable. †It's helpful in such cases to look at the cumulative effects of the hyperbole (which is what the gelato man business is), rather than getting excited about individual instances.

Isn't that approaching an "end justifies the means" argument? Is it OK to vilify an individual for the greater good? It seems like a scapegoat/set-an-example thing to me and I am uncomfortable about that.

I made an observation regarding the historical role of radical thinkers/speakers in social change. Such observation doesn't imply endorsement of any particular method or action. †In the present case I don't think that anyone has been harmed, or will be harmed, by PZ calling a bigot a bigot.

Gelato guy a bigot? Seriously, I do not see it that way. In what way (assuming you mean him) is he a bigot?

  
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