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carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:15   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)
Here's the paragraph I didn't quote:

Quote
I work in manufacturing, which, as you might expect, is a male dominated field.  However, throughout my career, I have seen many successful women. I've had the pleasure to work for some, and the honor of promoting the careers of others.  And what was their formula for success?  Well, they didn't spend their time complaining about the patriarchal subtext of the Successories prints that littered the corridor walls.  No, sir. They just put on their big girl pants and got shit done.  Who do you suppose is making a better case for equality?


Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:16   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,18:05)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,10:55)
Since I'm a very kind and patient man, I'll try to parse this.

   
Quote
This is a derail. I asked you what *you* don't like about it, not what I do or don't like about it. You are consistently trying to dodge the question.


I answered: "For me, someone endorsing that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent is just, well, WRONG!"

Problem?



   
Quote
I am not saying everything on Pharyngula is wonderful, or that everyone there is right or wrong or anything. I am asking you to 1) back up your statement that fundamentalist feminists post there, and 2) whether or not there is any fundamentalist feminism going on there or anywhere, what it is you don't like about the posts you quote.


Again with the Tis'Himself quote, never challenged by any regulars.

Problem?

   
Quote
Also, please produce a quotation from someone on Pharyngula asserting that most men are rapist-wannabes or that any male accused of rape is guilty until proven innocent. Note that you will also need to show that these quotations, once you produce them, were generally approved of by the regular commentariat in order to ascribe these opinions to "Pharyngula" as a whole.


Have you ever been to Pharyngula before?!?

You're saying that the quote from 'Tis Himself, which I understand is this one:

 
Quote
Would one of you guys pretending the cartoon isn’t sexist please show how it supports women? Come on, you’re all so sure it’s not sexist, so give us some evidence it’s pro-women. Or are you all too intellectually dishonest to deny your male privilege?


means "most men are wannabe rapists and any male accused of rape is guilty till proven innocent"?

Please can you explain your reasoning?

Once again, I don't feel my question has been answered. It's because you said the thing you don't like about Pharygula is that people there say most men are wannabe rapists and any male accused of rape is guilty till proven innocent, and that's wrong. Well saying that is wrong, so I'd like you to show me where the Pharyngulites say this and are supported in so doing.

Mmmmhhh... Where have I said that?

Ah OK sorry I misread you. You said that the 'Tis Himself quote was fundamentalist feminist - apologies.

Can you explain the reasoning there then? This is really what I'm trying to get at.

You still haven't come up with anything from Pharyngula saying men are mostly wannabe rapists, guilty till proven innocent etc

  
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:17   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)
Here's the paragraph I didn't quote:

 
Quote
I work in manufacturing, which, as you might expect, is a male dominated field.  However, throughout my career, I have seen many successful women. I've had the pleasure to work for some, and the honor of promoting the careers of others.  And what was their formula for success?  Well, they didn't spend their time complaining about the patriarchal subtext of the Successories prints that littered the corridor walls.  No, sir. They just put on their big girl pants and got shit done.  Who do you suppose is making a better case for equality?


Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:21   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:17)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)

Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

So, how does one determine which cultural depiction of an unsympathetic female is sexist and which isn't?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:28   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:17)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
 
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)

Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

So, how does one determine which cultural depiction of an unsympathetic female is sexist and which isn't?

Listen to women?

  
Robin



Posts: 1427
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:32   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,10:38)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,06:18)
[

 
Quote
 
Quote
 
Quote

     
Quote

   Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:
   28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm

   Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.

   So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat?

The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article.

OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance.

Maybe, maybe not.  It could be homoerotic.  Your hetero-normative bias is showing.

The issue, Roland, at least for me, isn't whether a cartoon with a stuffed bunny is a tool of gender oppression, but rather that there are people who spend entirely too much time looking at stuffed bunnies for things to be offended about.


Or rather that when a piece of minor but nevertheless real belittling of women's abilities takes place and this is pointed out, the shouting down of the pointing out totally drowns out everything else?

I'm just curious why there are those people who assume the bunny in the dress is a women. I mean really...it could be a transgendered bunny or a transvestite bunny. I mean...how small-minded and arrogant of you to assume that the bunny in the dress isn't just a regular ol' masculine man who likes dresses! I'm just amazed that no one has pointed out that the figures are bunnies and thus obviously representative of objectified sex.

Seems to me that any speculation about the social-sexual implication of the bunny depiction is just plain inane as it just demonstrates that some people willfully look for ways to completely miss a point and get a chuckle.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:32   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:28)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:17)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
 
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)

Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

So, how does one determine which cultural depiction of an unsympathetic female is sexist and which isn't?

Listen to women?

So, all women hold exactly the same opinion on this?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:35   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:32)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:28)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)
 
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:17)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
   
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)

Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

So, how does one determine which cultural depiction of an unsympathetic female is sexist and which isn't?

Listen to women?

So, all women hold exactly the same opinion on this?

Have you tried listening to them to find out?

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:36   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:35)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:32)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:28)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)
 
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:17)
   
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
   
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)

Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

So, how does one determine which cultural depiction of an unsympathetic female is sexist and which isn't?

Listen to women?

So, all women hold exactly the same opinion on this?

Have you tried listening to them to find out?

Have you?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Robin



Posts: 1427
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:37   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:01)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,10:38)
Or rather that when a piece of minor but nevertheless real belittling of women's abilities takes place and this is pointed out, the shouting down of the pointing out totally drowns out everything else?

What exactly are you after?  Every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture must necessarily be male?  Or would you rather that all cartoon characters be Shmoos?

   [quote]

Clearly not...a shmoo is just an anthropomorphized phallic symbol! Totally sexist and misogynistic! How dare you even post such a thing you sexist pig!


/sarcasm off

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:38   

Sorry, not playing anymore. "Roland" is boring.

FYI, "Roland", yes, we've listened to women. Ok, maybe women who have lost their vagina-card, but still women nontheless.

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:41   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,11:38)
Sorry, not playing anymore. "Roland" is boring.

FYI, "Roland", yes, we've listened to women. Ok, maybe women who have lost their vagina-card, but still women nontheless.

OK I'll draw my own conclusions.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:43   

Quote (Robin @ Nov. 29 2011,11:37)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:01)
   
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,10:38)
Or rather that when a piece of minor but nevertheless real belittling of women's abilities takes place and this is pointed out, the shouting down of the pointing out totally drowns out everything else?

What exactly are you after?  Every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture must necessarily be male?  Or would you rather that all cartoon characters be Shmoos?

   
Quote

Clearly not...a shmoo is just an anthropomorphized phallic symbol! Totally sexist and misogynistic! How dare you even post such a thing you sexist pig!


/sarcasm off

Yes and no.  You obviously don't understand what a Shmoo is. I quote:
 
Quote
The Shmoo first appeared in the strip in August 1948. According to Shmoo legend, the lovable creature laid eggs, gave milk and died of sheer esctasy when looked at with hunger.

Clearly, the shmoo is female.
 
Quote
Ironically, the lovable and selfless Shmoos ultimately brought misery to humankind because people with a limitless supply of self-sacrificing Shmoos stopped working and society broke down. Seen at first as a boon to humankind, they were ultimately hunted down and exterminated to preserve the status quo.

But, you are correct that the Shmoo story is inherently misogynistic. Virulently so.

EDIT: Fixed a broken quote and a poorly worded sentence.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Roland Anderson



Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:44   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:36)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:35)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:32)
 
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:28)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)
   
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:17)
   
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
     
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)

Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

So, how does one determine which cultural depiction of an unsympathetic female is sexist and which isn't?

Listen to women?

So, all women hold exactly the same opinion on this?

Have you tried listening to them to find out?

Have you?

Yes, and some of them said that minor though this is, it's still sexist and it's still worth pointing out. I'm not the one making a big issue out of this! The big issue is the incredible amount of energy expended by people who want to deny that this sort of sexism is worth any attention at all.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:46   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:44)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:36)
 
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:35)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:32)
   
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:28)
   
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)
     
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:17)
     
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
       
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)

Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

So, how does one determine which cultural depiction of an unsympathetic female is sexist and which isn't?

Listen to women?

So, all women hold exactly the same opinion on this?

Have you tried listening to them to find out?

Have you?

Yes, and some of them said that minor though this is, it's still sexist and it's still worth pointing out. I'm not the one making a big issue out of this! The big issue is the incredible amount of energy expended by people who want to deny that this sort of sexism is worth any attention at all.

What was your sample size? Never mind that.  

What then, would be an unsexist depiction of an unintelligent female cartoon character?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Robin



Posts: 1427
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:49   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:28)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:21)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:17)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:15)
 
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)

Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Must every depiction of an unsympathetic character in popular culture necessarily be male?

No. Should every instance of pointing out of minor sexism be shouted down?

So, how does one determine which cultural depiction of an unsympathetic female is sexist and which isn't?

Listen to women?

That's silly when you're talking about something subjective like a posed bunny cartoon. I mean really...no one - man or woman - actually knows the sex of either of those two bunnies. And you know what? It's because they are fake and aren't actually sexual beings at all!

Your argument is no different than that of the IDers who insist they see design "out there", but they have no way to measure it. Buying into the idea that one should listen to only those people who are sensitive to a given perception is no different than endorsing ESP and tarot card readings.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:53   

Quote (Robin @ Nov. 29 2011,10:08)
Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,09:39)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13)
So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.

And, what should I find 3 comments in?
   
Quote

   Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:
   28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm

   Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.

   So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat?


The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article.

Just for the record on this...my opinion (not that it matters).  I think the Brownback team should have just ignored this completely, or maybe Brownback could have talked to the girl himself privately without any public attention given.

But, if this had been my kid and he wrote something that rude, and it was brought to my attention as well as the whole country, I'd have suggested he get his fanny back on that tweet and offer an apology for the way it was stated.  Then he could politely voice his opinions as to why he didn't back Brownback.  I'd do that even if it were PZ he was slamming.  Children should be taught respect...we all turn into ass holes soon enough.  Gotta at least try to instill them with some kind of morals.

When I read or hear declaration like, "children should be taught respect" my immediate reaction is, "why?" More precisely, who exactly is entitled to respect in the absence of behavior that earns respect.

I'll say here and now, I do NOT respect institutions or titles. I respect people who earn respect through their actions. Brownbeck is not worthy of any respect as far as I can tell, but I found the actions of Emma Sullivan more than admirable. I respect her (see what I did there?) for her critical thinking skills and for standing up for her actual rights. Brownbeck could actually learn a thing or two from Ms. Sullivan.

I believe children raised without learning respect will have a hard time in the work force as well as life in general unless they are being raised to be a shock jock or a PZ Myers.  I also think that Emma, her Mother and even you don't really think this is appropriate behavior if you stop for a minute and really analyze the situation.

I can't imagine her talking to Brownback like that in person, and if she did, she'd be looked down upon by even those who back her.  It's the disrespectful words she used...the tone in that tweet.  Lots of people don't agree with their bosses...may even dislike them, but you show respect.  You don't see the Presidential candidates using that tone/verbiage  when debating their opponents.  It doesn't work in the real world.  People must show respect even for those they completely disagree with.

Flip the card...if my son tweeted that to a liberal or shared his views on homosexuality, but used nasty adjectives, people would be appalled as well...even you.  

That's what is so interesting about this PZ issue you're all talking about.  PZ is blatantly disrespectfully, nasty and hateful to anyone who disagrees with him.  I have no idea what that shop owner heard at that meeting, but if it was anything even remotely similar to the stuff that is found on PZ's blog, I'm sure the man was probably shocked beyond belief.  

What's funny is that the shop owner was making a stand against what he thought was wrong. He obviously didn't want those type of people with their views and anger visiting his shop.  By closing shop to them, shouldn't PZ be applauding him?  ..showing blatant disrespect for a group of people he believes are WRONG.  That's the kind of thing PZ preaches daily.  This shop owner actually does it, but since the shoe is on the other foot, PZ demonizes him.  

Personally, I think there may be something mentally wrong with PZ that he can't see his horrific hypocrisy.

Interestingly, Brownback et. al apologized to Emma.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/28/emma-sullivan-receives-ap_n_1116945.html

Personally, like I said above, the whole thing was probably blown out of proportion, but still...we DO need to teach our children respect and how they should treat others regardless as to whether they agree with them or not.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:56   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,11:08)
       
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:01)


   I work in manufacturing, which, as you might expect, is a male dominated field.  However, throughout my career, I have seen many successful women. I've had the pleasure to work for some, and the honor of promoting the careers of others.  And what was their formula for success?  Well, they didn't spend their time complaining about the patriarchal subtext of the Successories prints that littered the corridor walls.  No, sir. They just put on their big girl pants and got shit done.  Who do you suppose is making a better case for equality?


Can you explain why that means that pointing out when something is minorly sexist means you should be shouted down? Hint: it doesn't.

Are you certain that you haven't just made your opinion up and are only looking for evidence you think supports it? I think that may be the case.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out sexist comments. There would be something wrong if you exclusively did that while being paid to do something else.

BTW, who said anything about shouting down complainants?

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,11:56   

Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,11:53)
Personally, like I said above, the whole thing was probably blown out of proportion, but still...we DO need to teach our children respect and how they should treat others regardless as to whether they agree with them or not.

Hey, FTK, as long as you are here, what do you think of the bunny cartoon?  I would guess it probably offends you as a religious person, but does it also offend you as a female?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,12:11   

Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 28 2011,16:51)
Quote
"Q: Do you hate men?

A: Most of them, because of what most men do. Most men watch pornography (like ninety effing percent). Men are the vast majority of violent criminals (including rapists), johns, and world ruining politicians. Men are the vast majority of religious figures who teach things like male supremacy and obedience to husbands. Men are the vast majority of gropers, flashers, and cat callers. It isn't that I blame men who don't do this stuff for the actions of men who do, but most men don't seem to see anything wrong with it. The vast majority think that the milder behaviors in this list are totally acceptable and in effect endorse the shitty behavior of other men by not speaking up about it.

Almost all men are brought up to idealize violent masculine dudes (He-Man, Rambo, football players, the punisher, superman, etc). A rare man can stop listening to the cultural programming and act decent, but I assume a man is a sexist jerk until he proves otherwise. It is for my own personal safety and sanity. "


Holy wow!  Hope that woman is a lesbian.  Gotta check out her blog...sheesh.  That's some crazy, right there.

thou shalt not covet, trollop

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,12:12   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,11:56)
Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,11:53)
Personally, like I said above, the whole thing was probably blown out of proportion, but still...we DO need to teach our children respect and how they should treat others regardless as to whether they agree with them or not.

Hey, FTK, as long as you are here, what do you think of the bunny cartoon?  I would guess it probably offends you as a religious person, but does it offend you as a female?

You're talking to the wrong person, Carlson.  There isn't a feminist bone in my body.  I think all that shit is so totally overblown.  Guys are guys..they think like guys (ie, everything comes back to sex).  Just the way life is.  Yes, of course, they should keep a handle on their comments, etc., but chicks should just take that crap with a grain of salt.

The bunnygate thing?  ridiculous, imho.  

As far as respect in the work place?  I think women get plenty of respect.  I've worked in many places, and have never seen any blatant disrespect for women.  I've seen some off color comments...have heard of some messed up affairs where women have been promoted after "sleeping with the boss"...course, that's a two way street.  

If a man is wanting "favors" for advancement, all you need to do is go to the top, tell them to put a stop to it.  Then go to the guy in question and tell him to "fuck off" and be done with it.  

My husband knew my boss (at one time) was attempting to "get cozy" with me (very subtly of course) before I even did.  He noticed it when we were all together, and the boss did have a history of that kind of thing.  I just ignored it completely...never became a problem.  Little did I know that my husband had gone to him once and told him to back the fuck off...lol.  Basically, women...just handle it.  It's not that big a deal, imho.

Course, otoh, I don't women taking over the world, either.  I prefer men be in charge.  Sue me.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5373
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,12:15   

Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 28 2011,10:17)
To be perfectly frank, I don't know why I or Lou cannot also be considered atheist spokespeople. Both of us went back to school for a mid-life career change, yes, so some of us are late bloomers but we both intend to make our mark.

Actually, by founding the UNCW affiliate of the Secular Student Alliance, I feel like I've already made my mark and can now go gentle into that good night.

I jest of course, but if I never do another thing worth mentioning, I will have left UNCW a better place than I found it. That alone was worth the (rather large) price of admission.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,12:17   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 29 2011,12:15)
Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 28 2011,10:17)
To be perfectly frank, I don't know why I or Lou cannot also be considered atheist spokespeople. Both of us went back to school for a mid-life career change, yes, so some of us are late bloomers but we both intend to make our mark.

Actually, by founding the UNCW affiliate of the Secular Student Alliance, I feel like I've already made my mark and can now go gentle into that good night.

I jest of course, but if I never do another thing worth mentioning, I will have left UNCW a better place than I found it. That alone was worth the (rather large) price of admission.

You offend Ceiling Cat!!!!



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,12:19   

Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,12:12)
You're talking to the wrong person, Carlson.  

Actually, you are exactly the right person.   Thank you for answering.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Robin



Posts: 1427
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,12:24   

Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,11:53)
 
Quote (Robin @ Nov. 29 2011,10:08)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,09:39)
   
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 28 2011,18:13)
So, I wandered over to Pharyngula to see if Bunnygate had reached it's denouement, when what should I spy on the front page but a post about the controversy in Kansas where Governor Brownback came down on a high school student who tweeted unfavorably out him, Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.

And, what should I find 3 comments in?
       
Quote

   Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:
   28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm

   Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.

   So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat?


The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article.

Just for the record on this...my opinion (not that it matters).  I think the Brownback team should have just ignored this completely, or maybe Brownback could have talked to the girl himself privately without any public attention given.

But, if this had been my kid and he wrote something that rude, and it was brought to my attention as well as the whole country, I'd have suggested he get his fanny back on that tweet and offer an apology for the way it was stated.  Then he could politely voice his opinions as to why he didn't back Brownback.  I'd do that even if it were PZ he was slamming.  Children should be taught respect...we all turn into ass holes soon enough.  Gotta at least try to instill them with some kind of morals.

When I read or hear declaration like, "children should be taught respect" my immediate reaction is, "why?" More precisely, who exactly is entitled to respect in the absence of behavior that earns respect.

I'll say here and now, I do NOT respect institutions or titles. I respect people who earn respect through their actions. Brownbeck is not worthy of any respect as far as I can tell, but I found the actions of Emma Sullivan more than admirable. I respect her (see what I did there?) for her critical thinking skills and for standing up for her actual rights. Brownbeck could actually learn a thing or two from Ms. Sullivan.

 
Quote
I believe children raised without learning respect will have a hard time in the work force as well as life in general unless they are being raised to be a shock jock or a PZ Myers.  I also think that Emma, her Mother and even you don't really think this is appropriate behavior if you stop for a minute and really analyze the situation.


The problem with belief is that it does not necessarily match reality. What you believe about children raised without learning respect is irrelevant to me. What you know about it would be of interest to me, but I don't think you've actually studied the subject. The fact is, children raised to think critically do just fine in the working world without having the concept of respect for institutions or titles drilled into them.

As for whether I think Ms. Sullivan's behavior was appropriate - that's rather irrelevant considering the circumstances. Expressing one's opinion to one's peers in a (supposedly) private tweet is highly appropriate. Standing up for one's right to freely express such an opinion to one's friends is also appropriate. Do I agree with her choice of words? Not really, but then I'm not a tone troll. My opinion regarding her words makes zero difference given the bigger issue.

 
Quote
I can't imagine her talking to Brownback like that in person, and if she did, she'd be looked down upon by even those who back her.  It's the disrespectful words she used...the tone in that tweet.  Lots of people don't agree with their bosses...may even dislike them, but you show respect.  You don't see the Presidential candidates using that tone/verbiage  when debating their opponents.  It doesn't work in the real world.  People must show respect even for those they completely disagree with.


See above. She wasn't tweeting Brownbeck; she was expressing her opinion to her 60 followers. That Brownbeck's staff spent energy spying on her tweets is their problem with respect, not hers.

As for respecting bosses simply because they are bosses...pass. I have no qualms about letting someone know when I think he or she is making a bad decision or just being dumb. I don't care if it's my boss or not.

 
Quote
Flip the card...if my son tweeted that to a liberal or shared his views on homosexuality, but used nasty adjectives, people would be appalled as well...even you.


Once again for reading comprehension - Ms. Sullivan did not send the tweet to Brownbeck; she was tweeting for her friends.

Further, I'll bet your son has said some nasty things about people to his friends. Know what? I could care less. I think he should be able to do so and if someone intentionally eavesdrops and gets offended, that's the eavesdroppers problem.

 
Quote
That's what is so interesting about this PZ issue you're all talking about.  PZ is blatantly disrespectfully, nasty and hateful to anyone who disagrees with him.  I have no idea what that shop owner heard at that meeting, but if it was anything even remotely similar to the stuff that is found on PZ's blog, I'm sure the man was probably shocked beyond belief.

What's funny is that the shop owner was making a stand against what he thought was wrong. He obviously didn't want those type of people with their views and anger visiting his shop.  By closing shop to them, shouldn't PZ be applauding him?  ..showing blatant disrespect for a group of people he believes are WRONG.  That's the kind of thing PZ preaches daily.  This shop owner actually does it, but since the shoe is on the other foot, PZ demonizes him.  


I fully agree. Further, I happen to respect the man for his actions and apology and I disagree with PZ Myers view on the subject.

 
Quote
Personally, I think there may be something mentally wrong with PZ that he can't see his horrific hypocrisy.


Don't know, but I'm betting not. I think he's just very passionate about his opinions given the behavior he's encountered on the other side of the fence.

 
Quote
Interestingly, Brownback et. al apologized to Emma.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/28/emma-sullivan-receives-ap_n_1116945.html


True, but unlike the shop owner, Brownbeck apologized after seeing the firestorm that his staff created. I find his apology hollow.

 
Quote
Personally, like I said above, the whole thing was probably blown out of proportion, but still...we DO need to teach our children respect and how they should treat others regardless as to whether they agree with them or not.


As my posts above indicate, I disagree.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,12:34   

Quote
he fact is, children raised to think critically do just fine in the working world without having the concept of respect for institutions or titles drilled into them.


Critical thinking and respect are not one in the same.  This position makes no sense.  You can be taught tremendous respect, apply that respect, and also be an extremely critical thinker.

As for the rest of it....her tweets were public, not private...anyone could get a hold of them.  They are open for discussion on the topic.  

Yes, my boys say things that make me absolutely cringe.  Course, I say things that make them cringe as well...lol.  Then we correct each other....we make a point of saying...dude/mom, that is messed up.  We're not perfect, but we do recognize how people should treat others.  It's an ongoing process...trying to be kind even when you think someone doesn't deserve it.  I still think it's best to *try* your hardest to respect others regardless of their views.  Definitely voice your opinion, but TRY really, really hard to be respectful and add as much supporting content to your views as possible.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Robin



Posts: 1427
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,13:05   

Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,12:34)
 
Quote
he fact is, children raised to think critically do just fine in the working world without having the concept of respect for institutions or titles drilled into them.

Critical thinking and respect are not one in the same.  This position makes no sense.  You can be taught tremendous respect, apply that respect, and also be an extremely critical thinker.

Quite true. Hence the reason that one can be taught critical thinking, not taught to respect folks just because, and still do just fine in the working world. However the reverse is not as statistically true. People who are only taught respect without being taught critical thinking don't tend to do as well in the working world.

 
Quote
As for the rest of it....her tweets were public, not private...anyone could get a hold of them.  They are open for discussion on the topic.  


Her tweets were public for anyone subscribed to her. They were not broadcast publicly, and specifically, not sent to Brownbeck. She used an "@" tweet...essentially an email to her friends. They can still be intercepted, which is what happened in this case. The news reports on this make that very plain.

 
Quote
Yes, my boys say things that make me absolutely cringe.  Course, I say things that make them cringe as well...lol.  Then we correct each other....we make a point of saying...dude/mom, that is messed up.  We're not perfect, but we do recognize how people should treat others.  It's an ongoing process...trying to be kind even when you think someone doesn't deserve it.  I still think it's best to *try* your hardest to respect others regardless of their views.  Definitely voice your opinion, but TRY really, really hard to be respectful and add as much supporting content to your views as possible.


There's a difference in my mind between politeness and respect. I can have no respect for someone and dismiss that person's opinions and requests while being perfectly polite. I certainly believe in being polite in most cases, but I respect, as far as I'm concerned, must be earned.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,13:43   

Quote (Ftk @ Nov. 29 2011,10:39)
 Children should be taught respect...we all turn into ass holes soon enough.  Gotta at least try to instill them with some kind of morals.

I hear that they will really learn these moral lessons if you pump the kids full of some "this world was made fer us by our sky daddy" manifest destiny horseshit, then hand them a couple pump action pellet guns and turn them loose on the local migratory waterfowl population

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,13:44   

Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,18:41)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 29 2011,11:38)
Sorry, not playing anymore. "Roland" is boring.

FYI, "Roland", yes, we've listened to women. Ok, maybe women who have lost their vagina-card, but still women nontheless.

OK I'll draw my own conclusions.

Beautifuly rational. Well played, partner!

Very relevant, that's why!

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 29 2011,13:48   

Quote (Robin @ Nov. 29 2011,12:32)
Quote (Roland Anderson @ Nov. 29 2011,10:38)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Nov. 29 2011,06:18)
[

   
Quote
   
Quote
   
Quote

       
Quote

   Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM, says:
   28 November 2011 at 2:05 pm

   Sam Brownback: #heblowsalot.

   So, homophobic imagery is alright as long as it goes against a wannabe theocrat?

The first thing that came to mind was this Onion article.

OK, so is the imagery homophobic? What do you think? Substance, remember, substance.

Maybe, maybe not.  It could be homoerotic.  Your hetero-normative bias is showing.

The issue, Roland, at least for me, isn't whether a cartoon with a stuffed bunny is a tool of gender oppression, but rather that there are people who spend entirely too much time looking at stuffed bunnies for things to be offended about.


Or rather that when a piece of minor but nevertheless real belittling of women's abilities takes place and this is pointed out, the shouting down of the pointing out totally drowns out everything else?

I'm just curious why there are those people who assume the bunny in the dress is a women. I mean really...it could be a transgendered bunny or a transvestite bunny. I mean...how small-minded and arrogant of you to assume that the bunny in the dress isn't just a regular ol' masculine man who likes dresses! I'm just amazed that no one has pointed out that the figures are bunnies and thus obviously representative of objectified sex.

Seems to me that any speculation about the social-sexual implication of the bunny depiction is just plain inane as it just demonstrates that some people willfully look for ways to completely miss a point and get a chuckle.

i think one of them has a penis and a vagina and the other one has a penis where the vagina used to be and a vagina where it's anus used to be and it's anus where it's mouth used to be and instead of a mouth now it just has a little pad of feelers

so what the fuck do you call that?

i still can't believe people are so bugfuck as to pretend they give a shit about the hypothetical imaginary gender of a goddam internet toon character that doesn't HAVE gender in any fucking sense of the word the way it is used anywhere but the squid choir

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
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