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The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2005,11:56   

This topic came up during the LUCA thread, and I thought it deserved its own space.

  Western Civilisation is in deep trouble. In addition to an aging population, we are experiencing historically low reproduction rates - below replacement level, in fact. What to do? Most governments turn to immigration for an answer. The immigrants, they reason, provide the cheap labor that allows for economic expansion, while their consumption fuels the growth of service-sector industries. The enriched tax base allows us to maintain the social services and trust funds that cushion retirement accounts. And this does not even account for the cultural enrichment the newcomers also provide.
  There's only problem - the economy doesn't exist in a vacuum. Whatever affects the economy affects the wider society, especially when the agents of change add their own culture to the mix. Now, if that culture is sound and flexible, no real damage is done. But if they bring a diseased culture along with their possessions, everyone suffers. The immigrants don't assimilate, enrich, or even work - and thus new problems join the old. Politicians scramble for a solution. Perhaps Western society itself must change? Crime rises, liberties wither, and resentments build. This, of course, leads to yet more crime and even more Draconian laws to fix the rising tide of chaos. Civilisation ultimately collapses. Is there a way out of this mess? Yes - but I'll give my solution later.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Wonderpants



Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2005,12:16   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Nov. 13 2005,17:56)
Is there a way out of this mess? Yes - but I'll give my solution later.

Why do I suspect that the answer will involve establishing a fundamentalist Christian theocracy in some shape or form?  ???

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Fundamentalism in a nutshell:
"There are a lot of things I have concluded to be wrong, without studying them in-depth. Evolution is one of them. The fact that I don't know that much about it does not bother me in the least."

  
Swoosh



Posts: 42
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2005,14:25   

I don't see the problem as a clash of cultures or ideology or ethical relativism or anything of the sort.  Its a simple biological problem rooted in ordinary physics.

There are too many people.  We're approaching the point of no return wrt the globes carrying capacity.  Human effort is both reorganizing and releasing more energy into the system than the system can process.  Technology is a double blade here.  One the one hand, its brought us this far.  On the other, we've overextended ourselves through careless application.  There is coming a point when our technological scaffolding will no longer support the vast and ill-constrained platforms upon which industrial civilization  operates.  A population crash is in the works, and there is  nothing we want to do about it.  Or maybe, there is nothing we can do.  Its just plain physics.

With small groups of people, it doesn't matter how differently the worldviews or approaches to life manifest themselves.  The world is a big place and if nothing else we can just ignore the people over there and get on with our own lives.  But communities are no longer explicable that way, and respectful avoidance isn't an option.  The village no longer exists.  They've all consolidated into gigantic nations.  Everybody rubs elbows with everyone else, and friction ensues.  Its a global mosh pit out there.

Ultimately, the differences between cultures isn't what will take us down.  Our downfall will be the result of failing to address the physical impossibility of infinite growth.  The answer is simple.  Either we take intentional, predictable steps to reverse our growth in the world, or the world will do it for us.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1402
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 13 2005,21:20   

Mr Ghost of Paley. I felt a few minor corrections were needed in your oped
Quote
There's only problem - the economy doesn't exist in a vacuum. Whatever affects the economy affects the wider society, especially when the agents of change add their own culture to the mix. Now, if that culture is sound and flexible, no real damage is done. But if they bring a diseased different culture along with their possessions, everyone suffers. The immigrants don't aren't permitted to assimilate, enrich, or even work - and thus new problems join the old. Politicians scramble for a solution. Perhaps Western society itself must change? Crime rises, liberties wither, and resentments build. This, of course, leads to yet more crime and even more Draconian laws to fix the rising tide of chaos. Civilisation ultimately collapses may degenerate. Is there a way out of this mess? Yes - but I'll give my solution opinion later.


Are you sure you'll have time to work on your solutionopinion piece whilst preparing your paper and working on your theory of geocentrism.

Come on, admit it. You are parodying. No-one can be (apparently) this lucid and yet so completely irrational.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,04:07   

Quote
Are you sure you'll have time to work on your solutionopinion piece whilst preparing your paper and working on your theory of geocentrism.

 Your concern is touching..... but relax, Foxy. I may not be good at much, but I can multitask like crazy.

Quote
Come on, admit it. You are parodying. No-one can be (apparently) this lucid and yet so completely irrational.

 Oh, how the imams must be laughing at your clueless ass. How are my opinions irrational? Remember, this is an American board, so you can't get Big Bro to shut me up - you'll have to support your diatribes with logic n' evidence. Good luck, Monsieur - it's all you can rely on, apparently.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,06:11   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Nov. 13 2005,17:56)
This topic came up during the LUCA thread, and I thought it deserved its own space.

Wow…I hope I'm not getting blamed for the decline and fall of Western civilization merely because I'm not having children. :-)

Anyway, a couple of observations:

Quote
The immigrants don't assimilate, enrich, or even work…


Well, not exactly. As a resident of California, I'm well aware of the fact that if it were not for illegal immigrants, the state economy would collapse. Agriculture is utterly dependent on immigration, for one thing. And the hospitality industry would be in trouble without it, too.

Quote
Western Civilisation is in deep trouble.


Well, maybe (although so far I don't see any obvious signs of its demise). But the health of the planet is definitely in deep trouble, and in some ways Western civilization is the cause of the trouble.

The United States comprises ~5% of the world population, but uses ~25% of the world's resources. The problem is, if we want the rest of the world to enjoy our standard of living (and I'm assuming, Bill, that in some ways that's your goal, provided it goes along with Western civilization's values), we're going to need quite a few more earths to do it. Let's be ridiculous and assume China can assume First-World standards of living in the next 50 years. Well, China's got four times the population of the United States, which means all by itself China would use 100% of the world's resources to attain the same standard of living.

Obviously, something's got to give somewhere. Our benighted vice-president's opinions aside, conservation is going to be a matter of survival. But with America's profligate consumption of natural resources, and evident disregard for the state of the environment, it's going to be hard to take the moral high road on this issue.

Is it beginning to become a little more clear why I don't necessarily agree that a high birth rate in the developed world is a solution to any problem?

Evolve, or die. Those seem to be our choices as a civilization.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Hyperion



Posts: 31
Joined: June 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,07:44   

Two major logical fallacies from the Ghost:

1.  He implies that the economy is a zero sum game.  It is most certainly not, as any competent economist will tell you.  What I mean by this, for those not familiar with game theory, is that in economics, you do not necessarily have to rob from Peter to give to Paul.  It is in fact possible for everyone to gain.

Here's an example, with regards to immigration.  The economy in one country has collapsed, and unemployment is high.  In the country next door, however, the economy is booming and the only concern is inflation and lack of labor.  So people migrate from country A, which now has less unemployment to deal with, to country B, which now has a larger pool of workers who are willing to perform manual labor at low cost.  Thus, the problems in both countries are now solved, and most people are happy.

2.  The Ghost appears to believe that immigration, and possible globalization as well, are new phenomena.  This is patently false.  There have been many waves of immigration and globalization before.  The most recent major wave was from ~1875-1914.  I don't believe that I need to mention the significance of the end date on that one.

It was during that period that the US received a huge population boost.  Many of my ancestors came to the US during that time, for instance.  In fact, presuming that most of you are not Iroquois or Cherokee or some such, most of your ancestors probably came to this country at that time.  There was also a previous immigration wave during the 1840's from Ireland during their potato famine, which was when many of the Irish immigrants came to America.

Funny how none of the other immigration waves caused a "collapse of civilization."

Besides,you know what Gandhi said about Western civilization.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,08:28   

I was thinking along the same lines as your point 2.  The UK, for instance, has been suffering waves of immigration for about 2,000 years, and the US for about 300.

One wonders if GoP's (how like the GOP  :D) thoughts are that immigration of non-European types is somehow different to immigration of European types.  :D

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If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,08:51   

Wow, you guys are sumpin'. When I make a complete argument, I get....

<chirpchirpchirpchirp>

 ......but let me make an abbreviated one, and the bloodhounds come a' bayin'. Note to self: Suspense + Politically Incorrect Thinking = Deluge (in relative terms at least).  :D

Quote
Two major logical fallacies from the Ghost:

 Shazam! An actual argument!
Quote
1.  He implies that the economy is a zero sum game.

Really? I thought that phrases like this:
Quote
There's only problem - the economy doesn't exist in a vacuum. Whatever affects the economy affects the wider society, especially when the agents of change add their own culture to the mix. Now, if that culture is sound and flexible, no real damage is done.

imply otherwise, especially since I made no attempt to address the economic argument. I'm fully aware that free trade can produce benefits for both partners, even if one nation is more efficient in producing and distributing goods. The culture can still suffer, however, regardless of the economic gain.
Quote
2.  The Ghost appears to believe that immigration, and possible globalization as well, are new phenomena.  This is patently false.  There have been many waves of immigration and globalization before.  The most recent major wave was from ~1875-1914.  I don't believe that I need to mention the significance of the end date on that one.

 Uhhhhh....no. Since the vast majority of these newcomers came from Europe, the cultural differences, although substantial, were manageable. Unless Ireland and Lithuania were Muslim countries at the time, which is doubtful (if currently taught, no doubt).
Quote
One wonders if GoP's (how like the GOP  ) thoughts are that immigration of non-European types is somehow different to immigration of European types.  

 <Beeep-Beeeep-Beeeeep-Beeeep>
 Possible thoughtcrime in progress! All guards to Sector B! This is not a drill! Repeat: All guards to sector B!
Chill, M.V., it will all be explained.......later.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1402
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,10:41   

Mr The Ghost of Paley inquires
Quote
How are my opinions irrational?


Geocentism is not rational, gene transfer by ingestion in multicellular animals is not rational. But your analysis of problems that can arise from rapid immigration of culturally different groups seemed quite lucid. I am curious as to your solution and why you think we in the poster's graveyard need to know this. Jacques Chirac, Ariel Sharon, and other national leaders would surely benefit more from your opinions and be able to put them into practice.

Mr The Ghost of Paley adds
Quote
Remember, this is an American board, so you can't get Big Bro to shut me up - you'll have to support your diatribes with logic n' evidence.


American... Eh alors?

You have this board confused with Dr Dembski's blogsite, perhaps. No arbitrary censorship here. Not even for being boring.

Diatribes, moi? I'm not the one espousing crazy ideas in a parody of a crank pseudo-scientist.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,12:02   

Quote
Geocentism is not rational, gene transfer by ingestion in multicellular animals is not rational. But your analysis of problems that can arise from rapid immigration of culturally different groups seemed quite lucid.

 My mistake. I thought you were saying that my stance on immigration was irrational. But if you find it wrong-headed, I would certainly love to hear your reasons why. Or you can wait for the full post.
Quote
American... Eh alors?

You have this board confused with Dr Dembski's blogsite, perhaps. No arbitrary censorship here. Not even for being boring.

 Ummm....Mr. Fox, you do realise I was praising this board for allowing free speech, n'est-ce pas? The slam was directed at France's speech codes. Remember the Bardot affair? Or is your media even more controlled than I feared?
Quote
Diatribes, moi? I'm not the one espousing crazy ideas in a parody of a crank pseudo-scientist.

 Why is everyone so obsessed with my motivations? I mean, I know I can get ornery at times, but at least I attempt to address other people's arguments. Even if they're French. :D

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,15:48   

Quote
I am curious as to your solution and why you think we in the poster's graveyard need to know this. Jacques Chirac, Ariel Sharon, and other national leaders would surely benefit more from your opinions and be able to put them into practice.

 Yes. The solution. Where was I? Oh yes.
   Now, as several posters have asserted, immigration can certainly benefit society. The question becomes: How can we maximize these gains while reducing cultural friction? The answer, of course, has been staring us in the face all along: by using the scientific method.
   Society's elites assume that all immigrants are interchangable, and minus prejudice from the blue-eyed devil (from now on, BED), should assimilate fairly uniformly throughout the workforce and produce roughly equal outcomes. In fact, this assumption underwrites the laws mandating affirmative action, at least in the U.S. But is this reasonable?
   On the face of it, this truism is highly questionable. First, cultural values differ. Some prize individuality, others emphasize group harmony. Some are intellectually inclined, others are more spiritual. Of course, these values exist on a continuum - all societies embrace the core human values to some extent - but small differences become huge when the groups are forced to compete.
   And that's where statistics come in. Unless competing groups are precisely equal, their achievement will produce different averages and variances. Is this a problem? After all, aren't we judged as individuals? Yes, but the individuals given most weight are the famous ones, the "movers and shakers". Those are the individuals that define a group. Einstein. Newton. Shakespeare. Ramanujan. Lady Murasaki. And so on.
   What does this mean? First, these individuals have one thing in common: their abilities lie on the extreme right tail of the talent curve. In addition, they existed in cultures that nurtured their particular talents. Shakespeare's reputation as a giant rests partly on the historical circumstances of his time; an era when the English language was just being standardized, when the ability to compose verse was highly prized, and a developing middle class that could provide an education and supplement an artist's income. He certainly deserves his lofty reputation, but at the time he was merely the brightest star in an already crowded firmament.
   Perhaps the assumption of group equality can be salvaged by the evidence? A counterintuitive hypothesis need not be wrong; common sense is often a poor guide. Here is where we turn to history. And history delivers a cold verdict indeed: small group differences do not disappear when societies collide - they magnify. So much, in fact, that many are forced to avert their eyes from the glare.
   In fact, a cursory inspection of modern immigration history quickly identifies the groups that blend most seamlessly into the Western fabric: Europeans, Northeast Asians, and Jews (No surprise, since these groups helped create the Western identity in the first place). Now, a lot of ink has been spilled trying to identify the precise cause of this; but for our purpose the reason is immaterial. I don't care why these groups are so beneficial to Western societies, I just know that they are, and as a pragmatist, I would like to use that fact.
   Better yet, the record is clear on who to avoid, and the results dovetail nicely with common sense: those people who hate our guts, and want to destroy the culture we have so painstakingly crafted. And why not? Our culture is not theirs:

James Baldwin:
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"The most illiterate among [the Swiss villagers] is related, in a way that I am not, to Dante, Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Aeschylus, da Vinci, Rembrandt and Racine; the cathedral at Chartres says something to them which it cannot say to me, as indeed would New York's Empire State Building, should anyone here ever see it. Out of their hymns and dances come Beethoven and Bach. Go back a few centuries and they are in their full glory -- but I am in Africa, watching the conquerors arrive."

   There is much truth to this. If I shared his history, I too would see a conqueror's energy in a bust, a hiss of menace in a sonnet. Certainly I can empathise with such sentiments, but this provides little comfort as I watch Paris burn.
 And Paris need not burn. Yes, Westerners have caused much evil and suffering. Perhaps we have so damaged the environment that it cannot be fixed. Perhaps severe adjustments must be made. But why should we stand by listlessly while people who consider us infidels, BEDs, and colonialists wreck the beauty that we have created? How does this solve anything? Wouldn't it be better to consolidate, rather than dissipate, our energy?
   So here's the solution:
 1) Restrict immigration to those nations who respect our culture.
 2) Buy out those immigrants who don't, and send them back to their countries of origin (where they won't be held back by the BEDs who torment them so). Perhaps an average bribe of $5000/yr for every year spent in the host country (up to 10 years), plus all their liquified assets of course
 3) Let freedom of commerce and association ring through the land. Abolish minimum wage, race laws, and any other useless, government-bloating, liberty-crushing machinations on the citizen. Let people pay what they want, live with whom they want, and say what they want.
 What are the advantages of this model? I'll fill in the details later.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Hyperion



Posts: 31
Joined: June 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,17:02   

Your posts are well written, but your logic is so fallacious that I don't even know where to begin.

Europeans are all of the same culture?  So I suppose you'd like to go to downtown Derry and wave the Union Jack.  Go ahead, see how long you survive.

Similarly, I seem to remember two World Wars, plus countless skirmishes in places like Alsace-Lorraine where two countries interact.  ####, do you know how many languages they speak in Europe?  Yes, right now Europe is fairly unified, but it was not always so, even a generation ago.

Your second fallacy is this line:

Quote
In fact, a cursory inspection of modern immigration history quickly identifies the groups that blend most seamlessly into the Western fabric: Europeans, Northeast Asians, and Jews


Again, at this moment in history, these groups appear well assimilated in Western culture.  But please, read up about Berlin in 1939 and tell me that us Jews were blended seamlessly into the Western fabric.  Sheesh.  Now you might respond with "but that's not America."  Ok, go read some of Henry Ford's writings.  See how well he thought that Jews had assimilated.  As for Northeast Asians, clearly you are not from the West Coast, else you would have read some of the history of how Chinese and Japanese immigrants were treated there.

Now to your points:

Quote
1) Restrict immigration to those nations who respect our culture.


Nations don't respect anything, they don't have emotions, people do.  Clearly the people trying to come to our shores respect our culture, otherwise they would go somewhere else.  How many immigrants do you actually know?

Quote
 2) Buy out those immigrants who don't, and send them back to their countries of origin (where they won't be held back by the BEDs who torment them so). Perhaps an average bribe of $5000/yr for every year spent in the host country (up to 10 years), plus all their liquified assets of course


How the #### would you do this without resorting to Gestapo tactics?  What do you do if the host country won't take them back?  What if the host country will imprison, torture, or kill them?  What if they refuse to go?  What if they have families here, and their children don't even speak the language of the old country?

Quote
3) Let freedom of commerce and association ring through the land. Abolish minimum wage, race laws, and any other useless, government-bloating, liberty-crushing machinations on the citizen. Let people pay what they want, live with whom they want, and say what they want.


Pointless mental masturbation.  Go take a poli sci class or two...even better, you could go get a degree in that subject, like I did.  But you know what, if you want to abolish these laws, go right ahead and write to your congressman, it's your right.  I wouldn't hold my breath.  Since neither congress nor the President would do that, how would you accomplish it?  

And right now you are completely free to say whatever you want, as you're doing right now.  And I have the right to inform you that if you don't want to be treated like a racist, you might want to write something that less resembles Mein Kampf.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1402
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2005,21:07   

Quote
you might want to write something that less resembles Mein Kampf.


Seconded.

Mr Ghost of Paley, you cannot be serious.

BTW French TV can be rather deferential to government, which is why I have satellite for BBC UK.

There's nothing wrong intrinsically in offering assistance to immigrants who wish to return to their home country; this has been done in the UK with refugees from the Bosnian conflict, for example. Resources are finite and limiting immigration to a level that matches those resources seems perfectly reasonable. Pulling the rug out from under immigrants who have been allowed to settle, by the use of compulsion or economic pressure does hint at a "final solution".

Where I fundamentally disagree with you is
Quote
3) Let freedom of commerce and association ring through the land. Abolish minimum wage, race laws, and any other useless, government-bloating, liberty-crushing machinations on the citizen. Let people pay what they want, live with whom they want, and say what they want.


One man's freedom is another's oppression. One rôle of government is to ensure there are checks and balances so that there is an equal amount of freedom for all its citizens. The unbridled free market is a carte blanche for exploitation and corruption.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,04:14   

Actually, GOP has a good point here.  We should send all immigrants home who don't have respect and sympathy with the Native American Culture, and don't agree to abide by its basic tenets.  That could be very interesting.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,05:53   

Quote
Your posts are well written, but your logic is so fallacious that I don't even know where to begin.

 Uhhhh..... thanks, I guess.
Quote
Europeans are all of the same culture?  So I suppose you'd like to go to downtown Derry and wave the Union Jack.  Go ahead, see how long you survive.

 Obviously you've been taking correspondence courses from the Cogzoid Shool of Reading Comprehension, for your posts so badly distort what I've written that I don't know where to begin. But here's a good place to start:
Quote
Since the vast majority of these newcomers came from Europe, the cultural differences, although substantial, were manageable.

So where did you get the idea that I believe that European culture is all of a piece? By the way, one of the European languages I'm learning is Irish Gaelic, so I'm well aware of the cultural differences within the not - so - United Kingdom.
Quote
Again, at this moment in history, these groups appear well assimilated in Western culture.  But please, read up about Berlin in 1939 and tell me that us Jews were blended seamlessly into the Western fabric.  Sheesh.  Now you might respond with "but that's not America."  Ok, go read some of Henry Ford's writings.  See how well he thought that Jews had assimilated.  As for Northeast Asians, clearly you are not from the West Coast, else you would have read some of the history of how Chinese and Japanese immigrants were treated there.

 Judas Priest, Hyperion, you do realise you're talking to a fellow Amurican? The public schools here won't let you escape until they fill your head chock full of the sins of the BED. Yes, Henry Ford's antisemitism was lingeringly and lovingly covered, as was Chucky Lindbergh's Nazi sympathies, the founding fathers's slaves, Japanese concentration camps, coolie labor and the Chinese Exclusion act, our broken treaties with the Indians, and on and on and on and on.......so what's your point? That I'm stupid for not having my brain sufficiently washed?
   In any case, you make my point for me. The German Jews were abominably treated, as were many NE Asians in Amurica. But what happened? Did they riot, loot, rape, and set our elderly on fire? No, for the most part, they assimilated. Wow, imagine that.
Quote

Quote  
2) Buy out those immigrants who don't, and send them back to their countries of origin (where they won't be held back by the BEDs who torment them so). Perhaps an average bribe of $5000/yr for every year spent in the host country (up to 10 years), plus all their liquified assets of course


How the #### would you do this without resorting to Gestapo tactics?  What do you do if the host country won't take them back?  What if the host country will imprison, torture, or kill them?  What if they refuse to go?  What if they have families here, and their children don't even speak the language of the old country?

 By the way, would you like to know where I got this idea? Hint: Google "Elon plan" and see what comes up. And no, my policy would not forcibly deport anyone. It would present a nice dilemma for those immigrants who so love to bitch about our country: leave, or admit that their native cultures are so dysfunctional that they couldn't be paid to live there. But I think many would go for this carrot, especially given the stick mentioned in part 3 of my plan. Even if they don't, the point will have been made.
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And right now you are completely free to say whatever you want, as you're doing right now.  And I have the right to inform you that if you don't want to be treated like a racist, you might want to write something that less resembles Mein Kampf.

 You really should make a date with Mr. Google (per my request) before making these accusations. I'll deal with the rest of your post later.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,05:57   

Hey Midnight, I don't have any reservations about Native American culture. In fact, I even like casinos... can I stay?

  
Rilke's Granddaughter



Posts: 311
Joined: Jan. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,07:06   

By the way, Mr. Paley's Ectoplasmic self, sir - the Elon plan calls for forcible deportation of undesirables.  The United States has been doing this for some two hundred years - so now we have NA casinos.

It's facist.  Deal.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,07:34   

Quote
By the way, Mr. Paley's Ectoplasmic self, sir - the Elon plan calls for forcible deportation of undesirables.  The United States has been doing this for some two hundred years - so now we have NA casinos.

 Now, now, no doing Hyperion's homework for him. :D
By the way, I didn't say my plan was equivalent or even similar to the Elon plan, only inspired by it. And by the way, the country that came up with this idea (shhhhh...no telling, please!;)) has also used variations of my plan in the past. In fact, recent events may have been inspired by this model. But let's see what Hyperion has to say.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,07:51   

Quote
It's facist.  Deal.

 I'll be sure to pass your brilliant argument along to the heads of our mystery nation. By the way, which delightful American public school did you attend?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Hyperion



Posts: 31
Joined: June 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,08:49   

Mr. Paley is clearly trying to make a comparison to the government of Israel.  I'm not going to get into a discussion of Middle-East politics here, it is far to complicated and requires a decent knowledge of the languages, cultures, and history of the region, which is why most Westerners encounter so many problems when they try to involve themselves in the region.

When Mexico and Canada are armed to the teeth, call for our destruction, and try to invade several times, then one could compare the policies of America and Israel.  Until then, please stop playing word games and simply say what you mean.  The line between being disingenuous and outright lying is a very thin one, and you are getting very close.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,10:19   

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Mr. Paley is clearly trying to make a comparison to the government of Israel.

 Very good. So you see the irony, then: Comparing my plan to the Nazis is just a little suspect when same plan is derived from a much harsher strategy formulated by the Nazi's victims. Now, you might say that America and Europe's situation is considerably different from Israel's, and I would agree. This is one (among many) reasons that my plan does not call for the forceful deportation of American citizens.
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When Mexico and Canada are armed to the teeth, call for our destruction, and try to invade several times, then one could compare the policies of America and Israel.  Until then, please stop playing word games and simply say what you mean.  The line between being disingenuous and outright lying is a very thin one, and you are getting very close.

 I really don't understand what you're getting at. Uncle Paley doesn't speak in code - he says what he means. Not that this stops people from misunderstanding me. But on to your point.
   True, Mexico and Canada are no military threat to us, but this doesn't render immigration benign. Immigrants can drive law-abiding citizens out of certain regions merely by targeting them for crime, by rioting, and by soaking up social services. And some want a whole lot more. To be sure, extremists can be found in any group, but the behavior of many of our newcomers adds legitimacy to these concerns.
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3) Let freedom of commerce and association ring through the land. Abolish minimum wage, race laws, and any other useless, government-bloating, liberty-crushing machinations on the citizen. Let people pay what they want, live with whom they want, and say what they want.


Pointless mental masturbation.  Go take a poli sci class or two...even better, you could go get a degree in that subject, like I did.  But you know what, if you want to abolish these laws, go right ahead and write to your congressman, it's your right.  I wouldn't hold my breath.  Since neither congress nor the President would do that, how would you accomplish it?  

 How do you think many of these laws got established in the first place? By a selective, and unjust, interpretation of this law. But what is done may be undone, especially if the foundation was based on a lie.
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In fact, Democratic Senator Hubert Humphrey, a sponsor of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, vigorously denied charges that the act would lead to the categorization by race and the use of quotas.

He even promised to eat the paper on which the bill was printed if it led to equality of results.

Responding to charges that the act would lead to categorization and thus decision making by race, Humphrey stated on the Senate floor "In fact, the opposite is true. Title VII prohibits discrimination. In effect, it says that race, religion, and national origin are not to be used as the basis for hiring and firing."

But through a fairly rapid process of bureaucratic manipulation and court decisions, equality of opportunity was rejected as inadequate and replaced with equality of outcomes.

Fourteen years after the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun, signaling the postmortem to Humphrey’s non-discriminatory law, wrote in the famous Bakke decision, "I suspect that it would be impossible to arrange an affirmative action program in a race neutral way . . . In order to get beyond racism, we must first take account of race . . . In order to treat some persons equally, we must treat them differently."

Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, who made the case for a colorblind constitution as a lawyer for the NAACP, reportedly told his fellow Justice William O. Douglass, who commented upon the discriminatory nature of affirmative action, "You guys have been practicing discrimination for years. Now it’s our turn."

Let me repeat that last bit:
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Now it’s our turn.

 Wow. No racial animus there.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,15:57   

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The line between being disingenuous and outright lying is a very thin one, and you are getting very close.

 By the way, can anyone decipher this? I still don't know what this refers to. Hyperion? MidnightVoice? R's Grandkid? Anyone?

<chirpchirpchirpchirp>


Oh well:

Poi ch'èi posato un poco il corpo lasso,
ripresi via per la piaggia diserta,
sì che 'l piè fermo sempre era 'l più basso.

  Part three: closing the circle.

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3) Let freedom of commerce and association ring through the land. Abolish minimum wage, race laws, and any other useless, government-bloating, liberty-crushing machinations on the citizen. Let people pay what they want, live with whom they want, and say what they want.
What are the advantages of this model? I'll fill in the details later.

 Yes, details. Why do this in the first place? Consider: How does a wise man solve a problem? Answer: He steps aside to let the problem solve itself.
  Like it or not, all cultures compete with each other. Immigration, in fact, is nothing more than citizens flocking to the victor, which is why America has an "immigrant" problem, while Liberia doesn't (it does, admittedly, have an "electricity" problem, a "transportation" problem, or a "please God let me keep my head attached to my shoulders for just one more %#$%! day!" problem, which might account for its lack of our problems). Thing is, once people enter a wealthy, secure nation, that nation can subsidize whatever fool habits they might have had, and even cultivate a couple of new ones in the bargain (America being the world's leading exporter in this area).
  This, frankly, will not work. We need cultures that can help us solve our problems, because our bonehead decisions affect the rest of the world. We also need a way to try out those bonehead ideas before thrusting them on the world. But how? Easy: let the communities decide.
 You want to live in a community in which strangers have sex in the bathrooms? Great, you do that, and I'll live in a community that waits for marriage. Let's run a race and see who wins. The life of a gangsta sound appealing? Go for it, just keep it away from me. Want to relive the good ol' days in Nazi-ville? Swell - I'll live with the Jews and we'll compare notes later. Sure, many communities will abuse their new freedoms. That's O.K.; they'll pay the price soon enough.
  What will happen, of course, is that the world will notice a trend. The communities that follow truth will miraculously be the only ones worth living in. Stable, productive, spiritual communities will flourish. People will crane their necks at the emerging miracle, and ask, "How can they do this? And how can we have what they have?" "I don't want to live a bitter life where neighbors eye each other warily, where gunshots are heard every day, where people have given up! Paley oh Paley let me join in your fellowship!" And I take them by the hand, and lead them to a world they never imagined.

 Can you handle the truth?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Hyperion



Posts: 31
Joined: June 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,18:43   

Ok, if you have a problem with the government of Israel, perhaps the place to vent such concerns would be on an Israeli board.  Good luck, though, as the Hebrew language contains no vowels and is incredibly difficult to learn.

In case you have not noticed, this is not a foreign policy board.  Furthermore, if you are interested in foreign policy or in the domestic policies of foreign countries, that you actually read more about them first.  Reading local newspapers for that country, or contacting the Council on Foreign Relations or the US State Department should give you some ideas for where to look if you wish to conduct further research.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1402
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2005,21:02   

Mr Ghost of Paley

Your Danté quote seems quite appropriate. Lost in Héll and unable to climb out.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,02:42   

GoP,

Might I suggest that you go to South Carolina?

Christian Exodus

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,05:01   

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Ok, if you have a problem with the government of Israel, perhaps the place to vent such concerns would be on an Israeli board.  Good luck, though, as the Hebrew language contains no vowels and is incredibly difficult to learn.

Meh - Hyperion, you are hopeless. I'm trying my best to follow your increasingly lunatic parsings of my posts, and coming up short. Another academic poisoned by postmodernism, I guess. I just hope that when your Mentos Moment © arrives, you can be coaxed down from the watertower before any damage is done. And yes, Foxy, I hold your philosophers responsible for this.
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Mr Ghost of Paley

Your Danté quote seems quite appropriate. Lost in Héll and unable to climb out.

 Yes. You're righter than you'll ever know. Well, in a generation you will. Don't worry, when Uncle Paley hears your little fists hammering on the gates, he'll let you in. :)
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GoP,

Might I suggest that you go to South Carolina?


 Ahhhh....but what happens when the community flourishes (as it will)? The feds will just force us to open up our paradise to a bunch a surly, evo-loving Starbucks cult members. That's why my plan must be implemented first. Get on your knees, then we'll talk.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,06:36   

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In case you have not noticed, this is not a foreign policy board.  Furthermore, if you are interested in foreign policy or in the domestic policies of foreign countries, that you actually read more about them first.

While cheerfully ignoring and forgiving the gratuitous insult, let me explain the relevance to evolution. In my nation, local communities will dictate what gets taught and what doesn't. Once again, a natural selection of ideas will prevail. Can evolution handle the free-market, non-government funded competition? Ya'll have to raid your slush fund, that's for sure, and the cheerleaders might have to provide their own blow, but mainly, you'll have to adapt to the new intellectual standards if you want to survive. No circular reasoning, no ducking arguments, no ad homs. Mano a mano with the Wizard and Master, Queensbury style. We'll even provide the wheelbarrows for your prize hitters.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,07:12   

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Mano a mano with the Wizard and Master, Queensbury style.


Mano a mano with "Goddidit".....How will we survive?

  
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,07:27   

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...a natural selection of ideas will prevail. Can evolution handle the free-market, non-government funded competition?

Classic, just classic. Hmm, can Natural Selection survive natural selection? According to Paley, here is us be lamenting in the near future: "Oh noes, our beloved theory of Natural Selection has just been undone by... natural selection, Natural Selection is dead!"

  
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