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Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2011,17:23   

A recent post on Facebook (along with a link to creation.com) from a friendly acquaintance of mine in Canada regarding *shudder* Jerry Bergman.  This lady is very sweet but is one those who got out of an abusive relationship and overcompensated with religion.  She thinks that Ray Comfort is wonderful, just so's you know.

I weep for the next generation.

Quote

We got to listen to this guy for free today! It was a great opportunity to listen to an incredibly learned man, and for someone so educated, he was very down-to-earth and easy for my kids to understand. (I know, he has nine earned degrees, but since he's not an evolutionist that means he's an idiot. Sigh.) Neat stuff on Neanderthals.


As I said, she's very nice and takes my constant posts linking to RightWing Watch, NCSE, and various atheist groups with good humor so I forced myself to not make any comments.  Like the fact that you can be perfectly intelligent but still believe in really stupid things for no good reason.  And that a bunch of degrees does not necessarily equal intelligence.  Sigh.  I deserve a cookie.

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 15 2011,17:55   

Quote (Wolfhound @ Oct. 15 2011,18:23)
A recent post on Facebook (along with a link to creation.com) from a friendly acquaintance of mine in Canada regarding *shudder* Jerry Bergman.  This lady is very sweet but is one those who got out of an abusive relationship and overcompensated with religion.  She thinks that Ray Comfort is wonderful, just so's you know.

I weep for the next generation.

 
Quote

We got to listen to this guy for free today! It was a great opportunity to listen to an incredibly learned man, and for someone so educated, he was very down-to-earth and easy for my kids to understand. (I know, he has nine earned degrees, but since he's not an evolutionist that means he's an idiot. Sigh.) Neat stuff on Neanderthals.


As I said, she's very nice and takes my constant posts linking to RightWing Watch, NCSE, and various atheist groups with good humor so I forced myself to not make any comments.  Like the fact that you can be perfectly intelligent but still believe in really stupid things for no good reason.  And that a bunch of degrees does not necessarily equal intelligence.  Sigh.  I deserve a cookie.

I've dropped all creationists, anti-vax, ... including all of my idiot relatives.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,11:19   

Why?

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3304
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,11:38   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,11:19)
Why?

Probably because it's hard to be nice to someone who is both willfully ignorant and ignores reality in favor of their preferred delusion.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,13:17   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 16 2011,11:38)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,11:19)
Why?

Probably because it's hard to be nice to someone who is both willfully ignorant and ignores reality in favor of their preferred delusion.

People disagree about lots of things.  I don't know why you would reject their friendship merely because they don't align with your own.  Makes no sense.  Your defriending them isn't going to change their opinions, so what is the point?

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,14:22   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,13:17)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 16 2011,11:38)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,11:19)
Why?

Probably because it's hard to be nice to someone who is both willfully ignorant and ignores reality in favor of their preferred delusion.

People disagree about lots of things.  I don't know why you would reject their friendship merely because they don't align with your own.  Makes no sense.  Your defriending them isn't going to change their opinions, so what is the point?

Eaten any babies recently FTK? Had any conversations with any voices in your head telling you to chow down on an infant?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,14:54   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 16 2011,20:22)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,13:17)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 16 2011,11:38)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,11:19)
Why?

Probably because it's hard to be nice to someone who is both willfully ignorant and ignores reality in favor of their preferred delusion.

People disagree about lots of things.  I don't know why you would reject their friendship merely because they don't align with your own.  Makes no sense.  Your defriending them isn't going to change their opinions, so what is the point?

Eaten any babies recently FTK? Had any conversations with any voices in your head telling you to chow down on an infant?

You're missing the important point that FTK would eat a baby if commanded to, but she wouldn't defriend them.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Seversky



Posts: 415
Joined: June 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,15:49   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,13:17)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 16 2011,11:38)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,11:19)
Why?

Probably because it's hard to be nice to someone who is both willfully ignorant and ignores reality in favor of their preferred delusion.

People disagree about lots of things.  I don't know why you would reject their friendship merely because they don't align with your own.  Makes no sense.  Your defriending them isn't going to change their opinions, so what is the point?

She does have a point.  What's poisoning US politics at the moment is an excess of intransigence and intolerance.

There's no reason to stop communicating with people just because you have different religious or political views.  Of course, it depends on both sides being tolerant.  I have no problem talking with believers.  It could become one, though, if part of their beliefs held that atheists or agnostics are worse than pedophiles who should be stripped of their citizenship and expelled from the country.

The same applies to those atheists who regard the Westboro Baptist Church as being representative of all Christians, of course

  
khan



Posts: 1482
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,17:30   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,14:17)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 16 2011,11:38)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,11:19)
Why?

Probably because it's hard to be nice to someone who is both willfully ignorant and ignores reality in favor of their preferred delusion.

People disagree about lots of things.  I don't know why you would reject their friendship merely because they don't align with your own.  Makes no sense.  Your defriending them isn't going to change their opinions, so what is the point?

The point is that I know all the ignorance & lies & other shit they spew.
How can I have a 'friendship' with someone who tells me I am a murderer or thinks vaccines cause disease or thinks science is some some sort of elitist conspiracy?
BTW: not only anti-vax but also had all amalgam fillings removed; she's probably into chemtrails...

Why would I want a 'friendship' with people who are bugfuck?

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,18:30   

Quote (Seversky @ Oct. 17 2011,06:49)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,13:17)
 
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 16 2011,11:38)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,11:19)
Why?

Probably because it's hard to be nice to someone who is both willfully ignorant and ignores reality in favor of their preferred delusion.

People disagree about lots of things.  I don't know why you would reject their friendship merely because they don't align with your own.  Makes no sense.  Your defriending them isn't going to change their opinions, so what is the point?

She does have a point.  What's poisoning US politics at the moment is an excess of intransigence and intolerance.

There's no reason to stop communicating with people just because you have different religious or political views.  Of course, it depends on both sides being tolerant.  I have no problem talking with believers.  It could become one, though, if part of their beliefs held that atheists or agnostics are worse than pedophiles who should be stripped of their citizenship and expelled from the country.

The same applies to those atheists who regard the Westboro Baptist Church as being representative of all Christians, of course

Agreed. From what I have been reading the number one thing that has been turning people away from Christianity is the intolerance and the lies. Being a counterpoint to this can't do anything but help.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3304
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2011,19:46   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Oct. 16 2011,18:30)
Quote (Seversky @ Oct. 17 2011,06:49)
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,13:17)
 
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 16 2011,11:38)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 16 2011,11:19)
Why?

Probably because it's hard to be nice to someone who is both willfully ignorant and ignores reality in favor of their preferred delusion.

People disagree about lots of things.  I don't know why you would reject their friendship merely because they don't align with your own.  Makes no sense.  Your defriending them isn't going to change their opinions, so what is the point?

She does have a point.  What's poisoning US politics at the moment is an excess of intransigence and intolerance.

There's no reason to stop communicating with people just because you have different religious or political views.  Of course, it depends on both sides being tolerant.  I have no problem talking with believers.  It could become one, though, if part of their beliefs held that atheists or agnostics are worse than pedophiles who should be stripped of their citizenship and expelled from the country.

The same applies to those atheists who regard the Westboro Baptist Church as being representative of all Christians, of course

Agreed. From what I have been reading the number one thing that has been turning people away from Christianity is the intolerance and the lies. Being a counterpoint to this can't do anything but help.

I don't think it's an issue of being a 'counterpoint'.  It's an issue of only being able to be told that you are going to hell, a murderer, an elitist left-wing socialist, etc, so many times before you begin to really wonder if the person you're talking really is a friend.

I have a number of friends who are Christians.  I have had severe disagreements with them, but we are both able to say, "OK, that was a fun discussion.  Now what are we doing for the kid's birthdays next week."  The arguments never end with me being called an atheist heathen and her being called a Christian liar.

The problem is that both sides are not tolerant.  In fact, almost by definition, one side is totally intolerant.  If one is not intolerant, then one (again by definition) cannot actually be on that side.  It all stems from this set of rules that Christians insist is important, even though they don't follow them.

I have no problem having a discussion, but when one side does not discuss in good faith and instead preaches (right FtK?), then there can be no discussion.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,11:19   

Well, I friended an atheist and promptly hid him because he posted about every 2.5 seconds, and got unfriended by an atheist who did not like the fact that I objected to how former employees at an atheist org were allegedly treated.

Geez, it's nothing personal, and should not be. It's nick-named FakeBook for a reason: performance friending (the complement to performance parenting, of which FB is a major offender).

I mostly use it to keep up with contacts who are not active on Linked In. Otherwise, I do not have much time for it, and I wonder about all these "busy moms/dads" who apparently do. (WTF is Farmville? Don't tell me!;)

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3304
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,12:51   

This is about facebook?  Oh, I misunderstood, I thought this was about dropping real people and stopping being friends with them.

Meh, facebook, I maintain less than 100 'friends' and only because I hardly ever see any of them anymore.

I do not have most of my family and those that do, I regularly piss off with diatribes about the churches that they belong to.

Hmmph, you'd think that if someone was associated with an organization, that they would want to know if that organization was using their donations to support child molesters, stealing children from their mothers, supporting slavery, supporting the murder of homosexuals or other religions, etc. etc. etc.

But I guess ignorance really is bliss.  How about it FtK?  Is ignorance bliss?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,13:40   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 17 2011,12:51)
This is about facebook?  Oh, I misunderstood, I thought this was about dropping real people and stopping being friends with them.

Meh, facebook, I maintain less than 100 'friends' and only because I hardly ever see any of them anymore.

I do not have most of my family and those that do, I regularly piss off with diatribes about the churches that they belong to.

Hmmph, you'd think that if someone was associated with an organization, that they would want to know if that organization was using their donations to support child molesters, stealing children from their mothers, supporting slavery, supporting the murder of homosexuals or other religions, etc. etc. etc.

But I guess ignorance really is bliss.  How about it FtK?  Is ignorance bliss?

Curious what happened to you in your church at some point in your life.  Every church I've ever been involved in has it's little arguments over riduculous issues, but I've never known one that supports child molesters, steals from children/mothers, supported slavery, murdered homosexuals, etc.  

Every church I've been involved in helped the community as well as project overseas.  I'm lucky to be involved in a highly motivated church atm and they've put in numerous fress water wells overseas besides many other projects.  Last week we had a leader from the dominican republic Trash Mountain project come visit to let us know what our donations are sponsoring on that project.  Many of our church members have gone over on trips to help them physically as well.  He had a Spanish translator and it was a very interesting presentation.  He's a hard working dude...glad there are people like him in the world.  

Sadly, I give little anymore because of this damned economy, but hope that Im able to do more in the future.  Luckily, my church is fairly well to do, so we are able to sponsor many projects as well as do lots of stuff for our own community.

Churches really aren't that bad.  Even if you cannot accept the belief in God, there is much good in the church and it's great to be involved.  Our church would never turn away anyone...regardless of spiritual beliefs, sexual orientation, color, whatever.  

Sumthin' is off in regard to your hatred for church life.  Just sayin'.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3304
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,14:10   

So the Catholic church doesn't move child molesters from church to church in order to prevent police agencies from prosecuting priests.  So Buddhist monestaries don't do similar things?  So the Catholic church hasn't ever told a woman her baby had died, then sold that baby to a couple with money?

So Baptist churches in the US don't support Ugandan laws supporting jail and possibly death for homosexuals.  So the Baptist church didn't have, as a part of its charter, support of slavery until 1996?  

I think you are one of those that I'm talking about.  You have given your life and your money to some organization that you have never deeply investigated and you don't understand.  What percentage of funds is going to those things you talked about?  Can you prove it with accountant certified documentation?

Let me ask you, is it possible to do good works without churches?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,14:35   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 17 2011,14:10)
So the Catholic church doesn't move child molesters from church to church in order to prevent police agencies from prosecuting priests.  So Buddhist monestaries don't do similar things?  So the Catholic church hasn't ever told a woman her baby had died, then sold that baby to a couple with money?

So Baptist churches in the US don't support Ugandan laws supporting jail and possibly death for homosexuals.  So the Baptist church didn't have, as a part of its charter, support of slavery until 1996?  

I think you are one of those that I'm talking about.  You have given your life and your money to some organization that you have never deeply investigated and you don't understand.  What percentage of funds is going to those things you talked about?  Can you prove it with accountant certified documentation?

Let me ask you, is it possible to do good works without churches?

Ogre, listen up good here, bud.  There is evil *everwhere* including in various churches from time to time.  You'll find that overall...when you consider *EVERY* religious etablishments, these horrific instances occur very seldom.  

The really crazy shit on the 11pm news every day is rarely church related...lol.  You make it sound like evil is found only in the church.

Like I said, atm Im giving *very* little atm.  So, no need to rip out receipts, but yes we get itemized statements at the end of the year as to where our money went.  I really don't care if you believe them or not.  Im here, I watch them go out in the community.  We are given video presentations as well as our own members speaking about projects being done overseas.  Even had a couple skypes from Romanians explaining what our funds are doing in their coommunity.  So, yeah, it's really happening.  Our pastors don't drive Mercedes or live in mansions...I know where our Pastor lives...it's nice, but not as nice as our place.  Course, we were lucky cuz we built it ourselves for a song.  

Anywhooo...I digress.  Like I said, I don't know wth is going on in your community, but I'm quite confident any money I assign to a certain fund is going where it belongs.  I've seen the results.  

Tell me your story.....sumthin went way wrong.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3304
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,15:12   

This has nothing to do with my story of my church.  I just find it stunning that the majority of the people support organizations when they don't have a clue what's going on in them.

Yes, evil is everywhere.  And the church, which should be held to a higher moral standard, is no different than the general populace.  4% of priests in the US have had sexual contact with a minor, which is about the exact same as the general population.  So one must ask, what is the point of the church?

I'd like to point out that in the case of general society, there is a 'lone gunman' if you will.  A single person who is acting in an anti-social immoral fashion.  However, with  churches, you end up with a single person acting like this, and then a number of people who knowingly SUPPORT that individual's activities.  This can be lying to police and parents, moving the offender to a place that they cannot be prosecuted, quietly making some payments to victims in exchange for their silence.   If you include these accessories to illegal and immoral activities, the churches often have much higher rates than the general public.

I don't think you are Catholic, but do you find it surprising that some 2.5 billion dollars (1950-2009) has been paid out to victims and in related costs.  Where does the money to operate churches come from?  The parishioners.  So the people of the church are paying to support these activities.  I don't know what church organization you belong to, but you might investigate to see what (if any) of these things your church organization is paying for.

You didn't answer my question (heck, you hardly ever answer any of my questions, I don't know why I'm surprised).

Is it possible to be good and do good works without religion or the church?

So, with all that in mind, I'll ask again, what is the point of the church?

If you can do good works without the church and you can be a moral person without the church, then the church is pretty much reduced to worship of the deity.  Since there are multiple deities all of which claim to be the only deity and many of which are mutually contradictory...

why not skip the entire church and just do good stuff on your own?

Of course, we're digressing from the topic here... or maybe not... I think the topic was clueless religious people who don't get that saying someone is going to hell isn't exactly the trait of a friend.

Look, I freely admit that I hate churches.  I hate religion.  It makes otherwise nice people into idiots and it makes smart people stupid.  There is no benefit to society that religion does that cannot be done without religion.

There is no benefit to an individual that cannot be done outside of religion, except in the case where religion causes the individual stress in the first place.  

Yet, there is a lot of pain and suffering that is directly caused by religion and would only exist with religion (stoning of disobedient children, drowning of witches, the Spanish Inquisition, the holocaust, the bullying (unto suicide) of gay kids, etc. etc. etc).

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,15:26   

Why is it whenever FTK posts I get this thought enters my head?

She's baaaaaack!

Louis

P.S. I also see we have a humblebrag in our midst. It is good to see these things out in the wild.

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Bye.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,15:50   

Ogre, I'm not sure FTK has actually said this anywhere (it is hard to nail her down on anything even resembling specificity), but I think you're missing a fairly large point.

Sure, good works can be done outside of religion and a church--anything CAN be.  The question is what do people need in order to accomplish those good deeds?  It could be argued that many (most? depending on the demographic) people need the structure of religion in order to work the most good.

If that's true, then the comparison is actually between the good works that get done because of religion and those that get missed because of lack of religion.  FTK's point about churches doing good works is not a small one, even though I do think she has some tunnel vision about it.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,16:28   

Quote
Yes, evil is everywhere. And the church, which should be held to a higher moral standard, is no different than the general populace. 4% of priests in the US have had sexual contact with a minor, which is about the exact same as the general population. So one must ask, what is the point of the church?


I have no idea if you’re 4% is accurate or not.  But, I’ll repeat, I’m not Catholic, and I’ve not been in a church that had an issue with pedophilia among our leaders.  We have had other sexual issues...adultery, once a man got snagged for soliciting sex.  The thing you have to remember is that yes, we try to hold ourselves up to a higher standard, but people don’t go to church because they are saints, they go because they are sinners.  At least that is what I’ve always been led to believe.  I attend a non denominational church, btw.  Was brought up Lutheran.  What is the point of the church?  Um, I think I mentioned several earlier.  Our mutual beliefs (for the most part), our sense of community and support of one another in times of trouble.  Services projects for those in need.  The church is an excellent source of comfort and support.  

Quote
I'd like to point out that in the case of general society, there is a 'lone gunman' if you will. A single person who is acting in an anti-social immoral fashion. However, with churches, you end up with a single person acting like this, and then a number of people who knowingly SUPPORT that individual's activities. This can be lying to police and parents, moving the offender to a place that they cannot be prosecuted, quietly making some payments to victims in exchange for their silence. If you include these accessories to illegal and immoral activities, the churches often have much higher rates than the general public.


I think you’re stretching it here beyond belief.  You only see the bad apparently, the crap the media likes to highlight if at all possible to find.  I certainly would NOT support immoral activity, and  I’ve watched a few leaders asked to step down because of issues that may have occurred...usually adultery.  It happens...we’re not perfect in the church as I mentioned.  Were you Catholic?  You must have been involved in something to have such a horrible outlook. If you’ve had no church experience and feel this much anger, maybe you should get involved in a couple to see what is really going on?  

Quote
I don't think you are Catholic, but do you find it surprising that some 2.5 billion dollars (1950-2009) has been paid out to victims and in related costs. Where does the money to operate churches come from? The parishioners. So the people of the church are paying to support these activities. I don't know what church organization you belong to, but you might investigate to see what (if any) of these things your church organization is paying for.


Im not Catholic.  I think it’s ridiculous to demand that Priest’s not marry.  That is asking for trouble.  I can’t imagine why my own church would lend support monetarily or otherwise to help the Catholic church with their sexual issues...lol.  Like I said, Im confident as to where my money is going.  I see what is happening with my own eyes.  Im not really involved in a huge church establishment like the Catholic Church.  We’re non denominational...there is no hierarchy (ie Papacy) outside of our church that I’m aware of that oversees what we do.  We have our own checks and balances.

Quote
You didn't answer my question (heck, you hardly ever answer any of my questions, I don't know why I'm surprised).


I think I do a pretty good job of addressing your questions.  Let me know if I miss anything here.

Quote
Is it possible to be good and do good works without religion or the church?


Of course...without a doubt.  

Quote
So, with all that in mind, I'll ask again, what is the point of the church?


I’ve answered that several times today.

Quote
If you can do good works without the church and you can be a moral person without the church, then the church is pretty much reduced to worship of the deity. Since there are multiple deities all of which claim to be the only deity and many of which are mutually contradictory...

why not skip the entire church and just do good stuff on your own?


Organizations are far better than individuals to manage and keep “good works” going strong.  And, of course, our main reason for being at church is to worship God and learn from His word.  This is what keeps us striving to live a moral life.  Maybe you’re just much better than 99.9% of the population.  If I wasn’t a believer and didn’t attend church, I have no doubt I’d get into a lot of questionable stuff much easier than without that weekly reminder of how God wants me to live my life.  Maybe that’s why we sinners need church and you don’t.  

Quote
Of course, we're digressing from the topic here... or maybe not... I think the topic was clueless religious people who don't get that saying someone is going to hell isn't exactly the trait of a friend.


I wouldn’t know about that.  I’ve never told anyone they are going to hell.  Only God knows a person’s heart.  We’ve absolutely no room to judge in that particular respect.  

Quote
Look, I freely admit that I hate churches. I hate religion. It makes otherwise nice people into idiots and it makes smart people stupid. There is no benefit to society that religion does that cannot be done without religion.
 

It’s a shame you feel that way.  If you took away every religious establishment in the world, you’d lose billions upon billions of dollars that benefit others.  The Catholic church alone has established the grand majority of hospitals in the US.  Could go on and on here, but you’ve set your mind against seeing anything but the negative which is relatively insignificant in comparison to the good that occurs in the church.

Quote
There is no benefit to an individual that cannot be done outside of religion, except in the case where religion causes the individual stress in the first place.
 

Would hate to see that assumption put to test.  It would be a sad day for the world.

Were you brought up in a religious home or did you grown up hating religion without any warrant other than what you read?

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,16:38   

Christians, who purport to hold the bible dear. May I point you to Matthew 6? Kthanxbai.

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Ftk



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,17:01   

Can't win, can I Rich?  If my church didn't provide their parishoners with reports, videos, skype etc. of where our money is going, we'd have no way of knowing what is going.  OTOH, if they do, they are being unrighteous for not hiding their good works.  

Oh well.  Was trying to answer Ogre's questions, not "announce it with trumpets".  Sorry if it came across that way.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,17:21   



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OgreMkV



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,18:13   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 17 2011,16:28)
Quote
Yes, evil is everywhere. And the church, which should be held to a higher moral standard, is no different than the general populace. 4% of priests in the US have had sexual contact with a minor, which is about the exact same as the general population. So one must ask, what is the point of the church?


I have no idea if you’re 4% is accurate or not.
[/quote]

Then you haven't done any research into the subject at all and it's pretty much a waste of time arguing anything of any substance with you.

Quote


 But, I’ll repeat, I’m not Catholic, and I’ve not been in a church that had an issue with pedophilia among our leaders.  We have had other sexual issues...adultery, once a man got snagged for soliciting sex.

Interesting... and all this in a church.  With higher moral standards than the non-religious.

Quote


 The thing you have to remember is that yes, we try to hold ourselves up to a higher standard, but people don’t go to church because they are saints, they go because they are sinners.  At least that is what I’ve always been led to believe.

Why are we sinners?  Who decides?  Who decides what's a sin?

Remember, you're own Jesus supports slavery and the murder of disobedient children.  But since you don't, you actually have a higher moral standard than your own God.
Quote


 I attend a non denominational church, btw.  Was brought up Lutheran.  What is the point of the church?  Um, I think I mentioned several earlier.  Our mutual beliefs (for the most part), our sense of community and support of one another in times of trouble.  Services projects for those in need.  The church is an excellent source of comfort and support.  


That's exactly what I'm saying.  Why do you need the church for anything other than support of your mutual beliefs?  

Can no other reason for helping others exist?

I would much rather help someone because I wanted to rather than going to hell because I don't.  

Quote

Quote
I'd like to point out that in the case of general society, there is a 'lone gunman' if you will. A single person who is acting in an anti-social immoral fashion. However, with churches, you end up with a single person acting like this, and then a number of people who knowingly SUPPORT that individual's activities. This can be lying to police and parents, moving the offender to a place that they cannot be prosecuted, quietly making some payments to victims in exchange for their silence. If you include these accessories to illegal and immoral activities, the churches often have much higher rates than the general public.


I think you’re stretching it here beyond belief.  You only see the bad apparently, the crap the media likes to highlight if at all possible to find.  I certainly would NOT support immoral activity, and  I’ve watched a few leaders asked to step down because of issues that may have occurred...usually adultery.  It happens...we’re not perfect in the church as I mentioned.  Were you Catholic?  You must have been involved in something to have such a horrible outlook. If you’ve had no church experience and feel this much anger, maybe you should get involved in a couple to see what is really going on?  

Why do you keep harping on my experiences?  Does my experience change any of the above facts?

Would all of the above be OK if I was a Christian?

I have a horrible outlook because religion offends me.  It should offend everyone, but people are too weak to think critically.  For example, yourself.  I've quoted data here and you can't even be bothered to see if I'm right.

Quote


Quote
I don't think you are Catholic, but do you find it surprising that some 2.5 billion dollars (1950-2009) has been paid out to victims and in related costs. Where does the money to operate churches come from? The parishioners. So the people of the church are paying to support these activities. I don't know what church organization you belong to, but you might investigate to see what (if any) of these things your church organization is paying for.


Im not Catholic.  I think it’s ridiculous to demand that Priest’s not marry.  That is asking for trouble.  I can’t imagine why my own church would lend support monetarily or otherwise to help the Catholic church with their sexual issues...lol.

I'm not talking about your church. I'm talking about church as an organization.

As soon as you make an organization out of it, the whole thing goes to hell.  Literally.
Quote


 Like I said, Im confident as to where my money is going.  I see what is happening with my own eyes.  Im not really involved in a huge church establishment like the Catholic Church.  We’re non denominational...there is no hierarchy (ie Papacy) outside of our church that I’m aware of that oversees what we do.  We have our own checks and balances.

Quote
You didn't answer my question (heck, you hardly ever answer any of my questions, I don't know why I'm surprised).


I think I do a pretty good job of addressing your questions.  Let me know if I miss anything here.

Quote
Is it possible to be good and do good works without religion or the church?


Of course...without a doubt.  

Quote
So, with all that in mind, I'll ask again, what is the point of the church?


I’ve answered that several times today.


So mutual support of your beliefs is the only reason for church.  OK, I understand that now.

Why don't you follow the Bible then?  

Why?  because your moral standard is higher than that contained in the Bible.  Why is that>  Because you are a product of your society and culture more than your religion.

Quote

Quote
If you can do good works without the church and you can be a moral person without the church, then the church is pretty much reduced to worship of the deity. Since there are multiple deities all of which claim to be the only deity and many of which are mutually contradictory...

why not skip the entire church and just do good stuff on your own?


Organizations are far better than individuals to manage and keep “good works” going strong.  And, of course, our main reason for being at church is to worship God and learn from His word.  This is what keeps us striving to live a moral life.  Maybe you’re just much better than 99.9% of the population.  If I wasn’t a believer and didn’t attend church, I have no doubt I’d get into a lot of questionable stuff much easier than without that weekly reminder of how God wants me to live my life.  Maybe that’s why we sinners need church and you don’t.  


Who decides what the stuff you do is questionable?  Your religion does.  That's a catch-22 for you.  If you aren't religious, then won't be questioning 90% of what you do anymore.  Look at the ten (14) commandments.  How many are codified into laws of the land?  Only 3.

Would like to do something that your religion says is immoral?  OK, so do it, if it doesn't break the law of the land.  

You'll be much happier and feel a lot better about yourself if you don't tangle your modern morals and 2000-year-old rules.

Quote

Quote
Of course, we're digressing from the topic here... or maybe not... I think the topic was clueless religious people who don't get that saying someone is going to hell isn't exactly the trait of a friend.


I wouldn’t know about that.  I’ve never told anyone they are going to hell.  Only God knows a person’s heart.  We’ve absolutely no room to judge in that particular respect.  

Then you are a rare Christian... though I'm not sure I believe you.

There is no God and your heart doesn't have anything in it except muscle.
Quote


Quote
Look, I freely admit that I hate churches. I hate religion. It makes otherwise nice people into idiots and it makes smart people stupid. There is no benefit to society that religion does that cannot be done without religion.
 

It’s a shame you feel that way.  If you took away every religious establishment in the world, you’d lose billions upon billions of dollars that benefit others.

No you wouldn't.  You would gain all the money that goes to churches and put the majority to use by actual organizations that help people without requiring them to be saved before helping them.
Quote


 The Catholic church alone has established the grand majority of hospitals in the US.

And those hospitals have almost killed women because they refuse to perform medically necessary abortions.
Quote


 Could go on and on here, but you’ve set your mind against seeing anything but the negative which is relatively insignificant in comparison to the good that occurs in the church.


Yes, because, unlike you, I've actually researched the subject and not based it on a sample size of 1.

Quote

Quote
There is no benefit to an individual that cannot be done outside of religion, except in the case where religion causes the individual stress in the first place.
 

Would hate to see that assumption put to test.  It would be a sad day for the world.


Are you kidding, it would be a wonderful day for the world.

[quote]


Were you brought up in a religious home or did you grown up hating religion without any warrant other than what you read?

Again, what difference does it make?

Does me being raised in a religious home change any of the facts I've stated?

Does me being raised in an atheist home change any of the facts I've stated?

Nevermind.  You claim I'm the one that has blinders on, but you can't even be bothered to find out if I'm telling the truth in anything I've said.

A sad waste of breath.

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OgreMkV



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,18:15   

Quote (blipey @ Oct. 17 2011,15:50)
Ogre, I'm not sure FTK has actually said this anywhere (it is hard to nail her down on anything even resembling specificity), but I think you're missing a fairly large point.

Sure, good works can be done outside of religion and a church--anything CAN be.  The question is what do people need in order to accomplish those good deeds?  It could be argued that many (most? depending on the demographic) people need the structure of religion in order to work the most good.

If that's true, then the comparison is actually between the good works that get done because of religion and those that get missed because of lack of religion.  FTK's point about churches doing good works is not a small one, even though I do think she has some tunnel vision about it.

See, I still don't buy it.

If good works only get done by many people because their religion makes them, then humanity is in worse shape than even I thought.

This is basically saying that good works are being coerced out of people in return for fire insurance (keep from going to hell).

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Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2011,18:59   

We're getting all over OT on this thread, but:

You want to make an atheist wish for hell? Watch "The Eyes of Tammy Faye" (documentary available for streaming on Netflix).

I didn't know it at the time, but later on I knew that Jerry Falwell's take-over of PTL represented a fundamentalist coup of a charismatic empire which, unlike the fundies, had a satellite. However, I did not know that Falwell entrapped Jim Bakker into producing a list of demands, which he (and I remember this - we watched Falwell's Old Time Gospel Hour at home) then produced as evidence of Jim and Tammy's "materialism" and "corruption."

I did not buy Falwell's charges of Jim's supposed rape of little boys, but other people did. It is not lost on me that PTL, however much I loathed it, still reached out to gays and discussed AIDS before any other televised (or many non-televised) churches did.

MFP, what a POS Falwell was!

Religion is a rorschach: good people use it for good, rotten bastards use it to hurt people. But it can also be used to make good people do evil things.

But arguably, anything can be so twisted, too. That is why I believe in systems, such as peer review. Imagine if black churches had preached against the Prosperity movement and instead encouraged their members to buy laptops and wifi, for example, instead of homes. People would not be upside down in their homes furiously retooling themselves at the library, asking me how to upload their resumes. (You can't tell me that the unemployed are "lazy!")

-30- [Old journalism code for end of rant]

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oldmanintheskydidntdoit



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2011,06:07   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 17 2011,16:28)
I’ve never told anyone they are going to hell.

While that may be true you believe in a religion that says certain people are destined for hell. Despite the fact that was the way that god created them.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2011,09:35   

Actually, doesn't Matthew 6 strongly suggest not to go to Church at all, but to pray in one's home?

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OgreMkV



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2011,09:47   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)
Actually, doesn't Matthew 6 strongly suggest not to go to Church at all, but to pray in one's home?

Expecting a Christian to know the Bible.  You are SOOOO silly.

I mean, I bet she can't even identify a single prophecy of the messiah that Jesus fulfilled.  But that's not important.

The important part is she can go back to her church and claim that she's fighting the heathens on their own turf.  The fact that she constantly loses is never mentioned... I think there's a commandment about that, but we all know how rarely the religious follow their own rules.

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fnxtr



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2011,11:23   

Churches are like any other organization: unions, corporations, political parties, governments. The larger they are, the more susceptible they become to corruption and oligarchy/plutocracy, and the less they represent their constituents. Contrariwise and also, like any other organization, they can encourage team effort. Kudos to the well-diggers, I say.  Sure, they can believe some silly things, and act like... well, humans, and should most definitely be held accountable, but not every pastor is Fred Phelps.

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Robin



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2011,11:23   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)
Actually, doesn't Matthew 6 strongly suggest not to go to Church at all, but to pray in one's home?

I don't think it suggests not going to church. Rather it suggests not drawing attention to yourself for doing so or for doing any other righteous action.

If your going to give to others in the name of God, do so anonymously or at the very least, quietly.

When you pray, do so by yourself or at the very least, unobtrusively.

Put your love in things that exist in heaven so that the things you love will never wither, rot, or fade.

Etc...

In other words, do good things for God/yourself, not for other people's approval.

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 18 2011,15:27   

Quote (Robin @ Oct. 18 2011,11:23)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)
Actually, doesn't Matthew 6 strongly suggest not to go to Church at all, but to pray in one's home?

I don't think it suggests not going to church. Rather it suggests not drawing attention to yourself for doing so or for doing any other righteous action.

If your going to give to others in the name of God, do so anonymously or at the very least, quietly.

When you pray, do so by yourself or at the very least, unobtrusively.

Put your love in things that exist in heaven so that the things you love will never wither, rot, or fade.

Etc...

In other words, do good things for God/yourself, not for other people's approval.

Seems pretty clear to me:

Quote
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Emphasis mine. Of course you could go to church for, erm, not-praying.

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2011,06:02   

Oh good. Another FuckTheKids thread. We needed one more of those.

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oldmanintheskydidntdoit



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2011,06:21   

We're obviously the best friends 'she' has..

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
OgreMkV



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2011,07:04   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 19 2011,06:02)
Oh good. Another FuckTheKids thread. We needed one more of those.

I think it was actually a pretty good idea.  How to deal with 'friends' that (in reality) hate you.

I think it started out about facebook friends.  

What I found interesting is that the Christian people who I had as facebook friends would be the ones to drop or kick me as a friend than discuss or even acknowledge any of the anti-religious points I would tend to make.  

Much like FtK here.  The blinders that Christians have on their own pet notions is just as extensive as the blinders that ID proponents have.  

"Our idea is right and there is nothing anyone can say that will change that."

FtK is arguing based on her church... which, as an organization, is probably perfectly fine... except that sill sex thing that some of her fellow members like.  (It never fails to amaze me how a church can control the sex lives of people.)

But she, and the others, completely fail to miss the entire point... just like ID denizens.  They can point out individual things all the time, yet they cannot point to a greater good based on their pet notions.

Billy bob worked all day Saturday on Old Man Jack's house... wasn't that sweet?  

And yet, other the world, the religious are oppressing, controlling, creating hate, terror, and pain and suffering.  

Billy bob might have fixed the house without religion.  But a man who murders an abortion doctor because his pastor had a sermon about the evils of murder... that wouldn't have happened without religion.

Anyway, FtK (and the ID folks) are living in a fantasy land of their own making... where bad things don't happen, everything is evidence of ID (and therefore religion), and atheists are meanies who won't let them preach in public schools.

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Robin



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2011,08:17   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)

Seems pretty clear to me:

   
Quote
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Emphasis mine. Of course you could go to church for, erm, not-praying.

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

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MichaelJ



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2011,14:41   

Quote (Robin @ Oct. 19 2011,23:17)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)

Seems pretty clear to me:

   
Quote
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Emphasis mine. Of course you could go to church for, erm, not-praying.

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

But that is only if you are one of the liberal commie christians who worship Jesus. All of these guys worship Paul don't they?

  
Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2011,21:01   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 19 2011,06:02)
Oh good. Another FuckTheKids thread. We needed one more of those.

Yeah, I didn't exactly approve myself, but it's like a game of pickup basketball, so... ;)

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OgreMkV



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2011,07:34   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Oct. 19 2011,14:41)
Quote (Robin @ Oct. 19 2011,23:17)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)

Seems pretty clear to me:

     
Quote
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Emphasis mine. Of course you could go to church for, erm, not-praying.

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

But that is only if you are one of the liberal commie christians who worship Jesus. All of these guys worship Paul don't they?

They do.

Well... 50% Paul and 50% someone else (and no one knows who it is) who wrote the rest of "Paul's" letters.

... and they don't even know it.

Like I said, they have given their lives to something without understanding the least thing about it.

Taking children to church should be considered a form of mental and emotional abuse.  Children are too trusting.

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Kristine



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2011,07:37   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 20 2011,07:34)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Oct. 19 2011,14:41)
Quote (Robin @ Oct. 19 2011,23:17)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)

Seems pretty clear to me:

     
Quote
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Emphasis mine. Of course you could go to church for, erm, not-praying.

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

But that is only if you are one of the liberal commie christians who worship Jesus. All of these guys worship Paul don't they?

They do.

Well... 50% Paul and 50% someone else (and no one knows who it is) who wrote the rest of "Paul's" letters.

... and they don't even know it.

Like I said, they have given their lives to something without understanding the least thing about it.

Taking children to church should be considered a form of mental and emotional abuse.  Children are too trusting.

We should "teach the controversy" and let them make up their minds. ;)

--------------
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Robin



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2011,07:49   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Oct. 19 2011,14:41)
Quote (Robin @ Oct. 19 2011,23:17)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)

Seems pretty clear to me:

     
Quote
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Emphasis mine. Of course you could go to church for, erm, not-praying.

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

But that is only if you are one of the liberal commie christians who worship Jesus. All of these guys worship Paul don't they?

Shhhh!

That's not supposed to be mentioned out loud.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
OgreMkV



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2011,07:56   

Quote (Kristine @ Oct. 20 2011,07:37)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 20 2011,07:34)
Quote (MichaelJ @ Oct. 19 2011,14:41)
 
Quote (Robin @ Oct. 19 2011,23:17)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2011,09:35)

Seems pretty clear to me:

       
Quote
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Emphasis mine. Of course you could go to church for, erm, not-praying.

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

But that is only if you are one of the liberal commie christians who worship Jesus. All of these guys worship Paul don't they?

They do.

Well... 50% Paul and 50% someone else (and no one knows who it is) who wrote the rest of "Paul's" letters.

... and they don't even know it.

Like I said, they have given their lives to something without understanding the least thing about it.

Taking children to church should be considered a form of mental and emotional abuse.  Children are too trusting.

We should "teach the controversy" and let them make up their minds. ;)

Comeback of the month!

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
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