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Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4234
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2010,21:52   

Rest now, Harvey.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2010,23:48   

Has anyone read "The Handmaid's Tale"?

Thoughts?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2094
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,10:15   

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 14 2010,21:48)
Has anyone read "The Handmaid's Tale"?

Thoughts?

Scary dystopic scenario, boring writing.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2777
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,10:23   

Quote (fnxtr @ July 15 2010,10:15)
Quote (Richardthughes @ July 14 2010,21:48)
Has anyone read "The Handmaid's Tale"?

Thoughts?

Scary dystopic scenario, boring writing.

Couldn't have said it better. I've also tried to read other books by Margaret Atwood, and just can't seem to get into them, even though lots of people whose taste I respect say that they love the stuff. Not for me.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
† † † † † † † † † † † † - Pattiann Rogers

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4234
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,10:38   

I had the same reaction. Seems to me that it was made into an equally dreary movie starring Robert Duval.

OTOH, Duval's movie "The Apostle" (which he wrote and directed) is a wonderful portrait of a hellfire preacher gone astray.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2094
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,12:15   

There was a brief flurry of "what are you reading" on the local PT bathroom wall. I'll repeat my recommendation of anything by Iain (M.) Banks (science fiction like "The Algebraist" or "Against a Dark Background", or more reality-based stuff like "Espedair Street"), or Gregory Benford.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,16:17   

Quote (fnxtr @ July 15 2010,12:15)
There was a brief flurry of "what are you reading" on the local PT bathroom wall. I'll repeat my recommendation of anything by Iain (M.) Banks (science fiction like "The Algebraist" or "Against a Dark Background", or more reality-based stuff like "Espedair Street"), or Gregory Benford.

Aye, There's a cat here who posts a GCU Grey Area. "Use of weapons" - great twist!

Unlucky Handmaiden's tail, I'm not reading you.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,16:30   

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 16 2010,07:17)
Quote (fnxtr @ July 15 2010,12:15)
There was a brief flurry of "what are you reading" on the local PT bathroom wall. I'll repeat my recommendation of anything by Iain (M.) Banks (science fiction like "The Algebraist" or "Against a Dark Background", or more reality-based stuff like "Espedair Street"), or Gregory Benford.

Aye, There's a cat here who posts a GCU Grey Area. "Use of weapons" - great twist!

Unlucky Handmaiden's tail, I'm not reading you.

I actually enjoyed the handmaidens tail, but I read it a long time ago.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2094
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2010,18:20   

They've since shortened the title to The Handmaid's Tale.
;-)

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2010,04:08   

Re-reading Gould at the moment. I'm up to "The Mismeasure of Man". Just wow.

A real lesson in how (unintentionally?) shitty social prejudice can inform (social) science. Terrifying.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1000
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2010,07:43   

I started Valentine's "On the Origin of Phyla" about a month ago.

I'm on page vii.

Should be finished when there are no more phyla to observe.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2010,08:23   

Quote (Doc Bill @ July 16 2010,13:43)
I started Valentine's "On the Origin of Phyla" about a month ago.

I'm on page vii.

Should be finished when there are no more phyla to observe.

I felt that way about Gould's Brick the first time I read it. It took the first week of the holiday to get through the introduction. I sped up after then luckily but DAMN. I thought new species would pop into existence around me before I read the thing.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2094
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2010,13:02   

Quote (Louis @ July 16 2010,06:23)
Quote (Doc Bill @ July 16 2010,13:43)
I started Valentine's "On the Origin of Phyla" about a month ago.

I'm on page vii.

Should be finished when there are no more phyla to observe.

I felt that way about Gould's Brick the first time I read it. It took the first week of the holiday to get through the introduction. I sped up after then luckily but DAMN. I thought new species would pop into existence around me before I read the thing.

Louis

So the rest of the tome isn't as dense as the intro? That's encouraging, maybe I should take another stab at it...

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2010,14:01   

Quote (Louis @ July 16 2010,04:08)

Quote
Re-reading Gould at the moment. I'm up to "The Mismeasure of Man". Just wow.

A real lesson in how (unintentionally?) shitty social prejudice can inform (social) science. Terrifying.

Louis


I'm re-reading Bill Bryson's A Small History of Nearly Everything. It's one of the 'science made accessible' type books and it's just a fun read. Truly mind boggling when he presents some of the scales of things - like the actual size of our universe and the size of atoms.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2010,20:57   

i'm reading "Alone on Guadalcanal" by Martin Clemens.

one of the coast watchers in 1942.

of course he wasn't actually alone but still an interesting look at that part of history.

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1254
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2010,10:36   

I've just come back from the English bookshop next to our local university (where I bought "Eight Little Piggies"). Next to Dawkins and Darwin I spotted WAD's "Debating Design". The owner explained that it was the last one of a batch ordered by a professor for his class: "I would not dream of having this book in stock."

America, thanks a heap for exporting ID to Europe.

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2094
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2010,12:35   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ July 19 2010,08:36)
I've just come back from the English bookshop next to our local university (where I bought "Eight Little Piggies"). Next to Dawkins and Darwin I spotted WAD's "Debating Design". The owner explained that it was the last one of a batch ordered by a professor for his class: "I would not dream of having this book in stock."

America, thanks a heap for exporting ID to Europe.

"Edge of Evolution" (why does that sound like the title of a daytime drama to me?) is sitting next to "The Selfish Gene" and "Hens' Teeth and Horses' Toes" in our local library. I actually took it off the shelf and looked at the back, but just couldn't bring myself to sign it out.

Think I should?

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1254
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2010,14:03   

Quote (fnxtr @ July 19 2010,12:35)
"Edge of Evolution" (why does that sound like the title of a daytime drama to me?) is sitting next to "The Selfish Gene" and "Hens' Teeth and Horses' Toes" in our local library. I actually took it off the shelf and looked at the back, but just couldn't bring myself to sign it out.

Think I should?

Depends: Where I live they send you the bailiff if you forget to return a library book. Is it worth the sacrifice in order to protect future readers?

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2010,08:17   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ July 19 2010,14:03)
Quote (fnxtr @ July 19 2010,12:35)
"Edge of Evolution" (why does that sound like the title of a daytime drama to me?) is sitting next to "The Selfish Gene" and "Hens' Teeth and Horses' Toes" in our local library. I actually took it off the shelf and looked at the back, but just couldn't bring myself to sign it out.

Think I should?

Depends: Where I live they send you the bailiff if you forget to return a library book. Is it worth the sacrifice in order to protect future readers?

I suggest moving it to either the comedy, or religious section.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2010,09:48   

Quote (fnxtr @ July 16 2010,19:02)
Quote (Louis @ July 16 2010,06:23)
Quote (Doc Bill @ July 16 2010,13:43)
I started Valentine's "On the Origin of Phyla" about a month ago.

I'm on page vii.

Should be finished when there are no more phyla to observe.

I felt that way about Gould's Brick the first time I read it. It took the first week of the holiday to get through the introduction. I sped up after then luckily but DAMN. I thought new species would pop into existence around me before I read the thing.

Louis

So the rest of the tome isn't as dense as the intro? That's encouraging, maybe I should take another stab at it...

Less dense? Not really. I just made more effort!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Steviepinhead



Posts: 532
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2010,11:32   

Well, a pinhead is hardly the sharpest blade in the cutlery drawer, but I liked "Origin of Phyla" quite a lot, once I got going.

There is a certain amount of basic laying-out of terminology and methodology that has to be gotten out of the way early on, and if -- like me -- very little of that is familiar except in the broadest strokes, the plow does tend to stick in the soil.

But I learned a lot from the book, which combines fossil info, evo-devo, cladistics, mol-gen phylogenetics, and a massive literature review to repeatedly stun and enlighten.

The evo-devo stuff on how mollusks generate one foot or many was fascinating.

This was also one of my first rigorous introductions to "cladistic thinking," and that has given a tremendous boost to my efforts to wrap my little pinhead around current evolutionary research.

hth

  
afarensis



Posts: 1002
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2010,19:10   

I found the Origin of Phyla to be much more dense than Gould's book. Took me longer to read it too. As Steviepinhead says, the book is endlessly fascinating. Just stick with it.

Edit to add: I am currently reading two books. Phillips Tobias' The Brain in Human Evolution (which is fascinating although dated) and The Company of Strangers: A Natural History of Economic Life by Paul Seabright. The first third of Seabright's book (about human evolution) sucks, but after that it gets really interesting.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
fnxtr



Posts: 2094
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2010,22:22   

Quote (Louis @ July 20 2010,07:48)
Quote (fnxtr @ July 16 2010,19:02)
Quote (Louis @ July 16 2010,06:23)
 
Quote (Doc Bill @ July 16 2010,13:43)
I started Valentine's "On the Origin of Phyla" about a month ago.

I'm on page vii.

Should be finished when there are no more phyla to observe.

I felt that way about Gould's Brick the first time I read it. It took the first week of the holiday to get through the introduction. I sped up after then luckily but DAMN. I thought new species would pop into existence around me before I read the thing.

Louis

So the rest of the tome isn't as dense as the intro? That's encouraging, maybe I should take another stab at it...

Less dense? Not really. I just made more effort!

Louis

Well I signed it out again and started plowing. I guess I just expected to quick a return on my investment last time.  

Man he sure does a lot of prep work.  "I'm going to tell what these three things are. Later. But here's why the three things, which I will tell you about later, are important."

And I did move one IDC book to its proper place in the  religion section before, but I don't think it was E of E.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 27 2010,15:33   

Reading "Power, Sex, and Suicide" by Nick Lane. I's about mitochondria.

On the nook for airplane reading is "The Rational Optimist" by Mark Ridley. A book about man as a commercial animal, how trade is what differentiates us from all other animals, and what lets us enjoy an escape from Malthusian horror, in favor of exponential improvements. Full of happy factals (unfootnoted quotes) reminding us of how bad life used to be. (Oetzi the Ice Man died of violence and had the blood of four other men on him when he died. Paging Bones from the Afarensis Birfday thread!)

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1254
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2010,08:54   

So where did YECs get those 6,000 years from?

As Jack Repcheck explains in the second chapter of
The Man Who Found Time: James Hutton and the Discovery of the Earth's Antiquity,
not by meticulously adding lifespans mentioned in the Old Testament.
Quote
This belief came from a conflation of various revered nonbiblical writings and specific passages from the Bible. ... There was found the famous prophesy ascribed to the prophet Elijah that stated the world would exist for 6,000 years.

And Repcheck goes on to show how for 2,000 years Christian apologists frantically tried to cram history into those 6,000 years, squeezing the past, i.e. recalculating periods mentioned in the Bible, and stretching the future to leave a comfortable space so that the end of the world would not happen during their lifetime.

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2010,09:39   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Aug. 24 2010,08:54)
So where did YECs get those 6,000 years from?

As Jack Repcheck explains in the second chapter of
The Man Who Found Time: James Hutton and the Discovery of the Earth's Antiquity,
not by meticulously adding lifespans mentioned in the Old Testament.
†  
Quote
This belief came from a conflation of various revered nonbiblical writings and specific passages from the Bible. ... There was found the famous prophesy ascribed to the prophet Elijah that stated the world would exist for 6,000 years.

And Repcheck goes on to show how for 2,000 years Christian apologists frantically tried to cram history into those 6,000 years, squeezing the past, i.e. recalculating periods mentioned in the Bible, and stretching the future to leave a comfortable space so that the end of the world would not happen during their lifetime.

And now, the Christian Apologists have "devolved" to actually WANT the end of days to happen to them!  What a bunch of morans!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1254
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2010,10:10   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 24 2010,09:39)
 
Quote (Kattarina98 @ Aug. 24 2010,08:54)
So where did YECs get those 6,000 years from?
... stretching the future to leave a comfortable space so that the end of the world would not happen during their lifetime.

And now, the Christian Apologists have "devolved" to actually WANT the end of days to happen to them! †What a bunch of morans!

Repcheck thinks that those apologists who left said comfortable space were not afraid of Doomsday but of being disproven by the event not taking place after all. † †:-D

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2010,10:59   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Aug. 24 2010,11:10)
Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 24 2010,09:39)
Quote (Kattarina98 @ Aug. 24 2010,08:54)
So where did YECs get those 6,000 years from?
... stretching the future to leave a comfortable space so that the end of the world would not happen during their lifetime.

And now, the Christian Apologists have "devolved" to actually WANT the end of days to happen to them! †What a bunch of morans!

Repcheck thinks that those apologists who left said comfortable space were not afraid of Doomsday but of being disproven by the event not taking place after all. † †:-D

Calling shenanigans on this.

The Jewish religion has always counted years since Creation, and they're just shy of 5800. Bishop Ussher was a johnny come lately in Biblical chronology.

There is also a strong eschatological belief in Judaism in a 6000 year period to be followed by a 1000 year "Sabbath" of Messianic rule, followed by God knows what. Ps 90:4 says,
Quote
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.


The first half of that is what motivates Jewish 6000 year thinking. Of course, when Rosh Hashanah 6000 rolls around with no Mashiach, they can focus on the second half. "A watch in the night" is roughly an hour, so the Messianic Age is pushed far into the future.

ps - the Jewish calendar really needs the Messiah to help press reset on its calculations of the seasons, which were set almost 2000 years ago and have gone ever so slightly off. The problem is well known in Orthodox circles, but contra the Pope and fatwa-issuing Islamic clerics, no rabbi would ever claim the authority to change things now.

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1254
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2010,13:00   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Aug. 24 2010,10:59)
Calling shenanigans on this.

The Jewish religion has always counted years since Creation, and they're just shy of 5800. Bishop Ussher was a johnny come lately in Biblical chronology.

There is also a strong eschatological belief in Judaism in a 6000 year period to be followed by a 1000 year "Sabbath" of Messianic rule, followed by God knows what. Ps 90:4 says, †
Quote
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.


The first half of that is what motivates Jewish 6000 year thinking. Of course, when Rosh Hashanah 6000 rolls around with no Mashiach, they can focus on the second half. "A watch in the night" is roughly an hour, so the Messianic Age is pushed far into the future.

ps - the Jewish calendar really needs the Messiah to help press reset on its calculations of the seasons, which were set almost 2000 years ago and have gone ever so slightly off. The problem is well known in Orthodox circles, but contra the Pope and fatwa-issuing Islamic clerics, no rabbi would ever claim the authority to change things now.

So it seems whereas the various Christian apologists tampered with the numbers over the millenia, Jews just stuck to their chronology? Or did I misunderstand you?

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2010,15:37   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Aug. 24 2010,14:00)
Quote (dvunkannon @ Aug. 24 2010,10:59)
Calling shenanigans on this.

The Jewish religion has always counted years since Creation, and they're just shy of 5800. Bishop Ussher was a johnny come lately in Biblical chronology.

There is also a strong eschatological belief in Judaism in a 6000 year period to be followed by a 1000 year "Sabbath" of Messianic rule, followed by God knows what. Ps 90:4 says, † †
Quote
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.


The first half of that is what motivates Jewish 6000 year thinking. Of course, when Rosh Hashanah 6000 rolls around with no Mashiach, they can focus on the second half. "A watch in the night" is roughly an hour, so the Messianic Age is pushed far into the future.

ps - the Jewish calendar really needs the Messiah to help press reset on its calculations of the seasons, which were set almost 2000 years ago and have gone ever so slightly off. The problem is well known in Orthodox circles, but contra the Pope and fatwa-issuing Islamic clerics, no rabbi would ever claim the authority to change things now.

So it seems whereas the various Christian apologists tampered with the numbers over the millenia, Jews just stuck to their chronology? Or did I misunderstand you?

I'd have to see a clear example of what Repcheck is calling 'tampering' to answer your question. If he means that even 2000 years ago, †Christians believed the world was already 6000 years old, and today they still think it is 6000 years old, I would be very surprised if the source was authentic.

The Jewish religion thinks the world is about 5800 years old now, and 2000 years ago they thought it was 3800 years old. 2000 years ago those Jews that thought the world would last 6000 years thought the clock had 2200 years to run, and now it has 200.

The Biblical prophet Elijah never said anything about 6000 years (in the Bible). It is quite possible that Christian authors have mangled a quote by the individual known as "Tanna d'bei Eliyahu" (Teacher of the house of Elijah) which appears in the Babylonian Talmud.

Quote
R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day {Isaiah 2:11}.

Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight {Hosea 6:2}.

It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day,' and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day {Psalm 92:1}, †meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath ó and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past {Psalm 90:4}.

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; †two thousand years the Torah flourished; †and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era (Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 97a).


If the title 'tanna' is taken at face value, the author of that last quote lived just at the beginning of the Common Era, ie just by Jesus at around the 4000 mark. So by his own chronology, the Messianic era is right around the corner! But his was a minority opinion. A much later work (10th century CE) takes the name and quotations of TbE as its basis, see Wikipedia.

Bottom line - Jews have had a consistent understanding of the age of the earth since the beginning of rabbinic Judaism (at least). I'm not a student of historical Christian eschatology, but I've never heard of the idea that Christian authors have continually redefined what 6000 years means so that their own times were always just shy of 6000.

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
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