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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 3, The Beast Marches On...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,03:28   

Quote
I donít find anything in the 10 commandments, for example, that is not straight forward and clear.

Linky

I'll never understand how they can pretend that the ten commandments are a sufficient guide line to decide ethical questions.
Take "You shall not kill."

Completely straightforward, isn't it. Apparently not. Apparently what that really means is "You shall not murder" which means that killing is allowed if it is in self defence or in war times. The death penalty is allowed, too, although it is neither self defence nor war but OT "an eye for an eye" which was IIRC explicitly overturned by Jesus: Turn the other cheek.
Some at UD probably think that the murder of Dr. Tiller was not only morally defensible but that it was a moral act although it is clearly murder. And I'm pretty sure most of them would agree that killing Hitler would've been a good thing. But it would've been in direct contradiction to You shall not kill.
Kill one to save many is clear cut utilitarian reasoning. It doesn't square with moral absolutes like You shall not kill.
If they were right that there're objective moral absolutes than there couldn't be such a thing as a moral dilemma - we all should answer them in the same way and give the same reasons for our answers.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,07:40   

Amen to JLT above. †I'd also point out that we all kill our food, even vegetarians. †

The First Commandment is also blasphemous:

Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me

Despite several thousand years of trying, believers have never gotten around the simple fact that punishing someone for something their great-grandfather did a hundred years before they were even born is grossly immoral.

Even some of the authors of the Bible seemed to realize this:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

I like to think of the Old Testament as the very best in Bronze-age philosophy.

Well, maybe not the very best ...

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,07:48   

JLT: "Some at UD probably think that the murder of Dr. Tiller was not only morally defensible but that it was a moral act although it is clearly murder."

That's because the anti-abortion groups have been spreading a blood libel since Roe v. Wade. †

A blood libel is a lie so nasty that it incites murder. †Examples of blood libels would be Nazis claiming that Jews kill Christian children in order to use their blood for devilish religious ceremonies and "pro life" proponents saying that a fetus is a baby.

Both blood libels have caused murders and the people who issue such libels share responsibility for the crimes they cause.

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
khan



Posts: 1483
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,08:27   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 20 2010,08:48)
JLT: "Some at UD probably think that the murder of Dr. Tiller was not only morally defensible but that it was a moral act although it is clearly murder."

That's because the anti-abortion groups have been spreading a blood libel since Roe v. Wade. †

A blood libel is a lie so nasty that it incites murder. †Examples of blood libels would be Nazis claiming that Jews kill Christian children in order to use their blood for devilish religious ceremonies and "pro life" proponents saying that a fetus is a baby.

Both blood libels have caused murders and the people who issue such libels share responsibility for the crimes they cause.

Exactly right.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 531
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,14:20   

Quote
BA77:
Sal,
For me, I was convinced that consciousness was integral to QM reality when I started puzzling over as to exactly why the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) would form a perfect sphere around the earth:


Snort. †Chuckle....

What?!! He's actually serious??!!

... Guffaw!

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein †(H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Henry J



Posts: 4080
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,17:33   

Quote (fnxtr @ Feb. 17 2010,17:10)
Quote (olegt @ Feb. 17 2010,06:35)
REC,

The Mental Universe can be found on Henry's web site in glorious PDF. †As to Sal's use of Hopkins servers to access Nature, he's fully entitled to that as a part-time student. †

Let's not degenerate into petty sniping.

In the words of Jessica "Sue Storm" Alba, "No, let's."

Ah, but don't forget what Victor said right after that - "Susan, you're fired".

Henry

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2137
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,18:40   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Feb. 20 2010,12:20)
Quote
BA77:
Sal,
For me, I was convinced that consciousness was integral to QM reality when I started puzzling over as to exactly why the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) would form a perfect sphere around the earth:


Snort. †Chuckle....

What?!! He's actually serious??!!

... Guffaw!

Ow. That one hurt to look at.

(Paraphrasing Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper):

"A tard so big it had other little tards orbiting around it."

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
REC



Posts: 572
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,20:07   

Who let Allen MacNeill out of moderation?  He's on a tear over there....

Morality

Detect this

How long does this last?

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,20:56   

Quote (REC @ Feb. 20 2010,21:07)
Who let Allen MacNeill out of moderation? †He's on a tear over there....

Morality

Detect this

How long does this last?

Barry pulled the muzzle off of Mark Frank and Nakashima also. Maybe it was just too boring over there.

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,23:20   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Feb. 20 2010,12:20)
Quote
BA77:
Sal,
For me, I was convinced that consciousness was integral to QM reality when I started puzzling over as to exactly why the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) would form a perfect sphere around the earth:


Snort. †Chuckle....

What?!! He's actually serious??!!

... Guffaw!

Well, to be fair the sphere bulges slightly around the equator.

Sorry about the PLoT*

*(Pathetic level of detail)

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,01:53   

computerist:  
Quote
CJYman and Kairosfocus have been shedding light on practical and detailed organized-CSI calculations for the past few weeks now, the best Iíve seen.
ROFL

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,04:46   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 21 2010,01:53)
computerist: † †
Quote
CJYman and Kairosfocus have been shedding light on practical and detailed organized-CSI calculations for the past few weeks now, the best Iíve seen.
ROFL

Yeah, it was especially cool how they managed to go on at length about CSI calculations without actually calculating anything. †It always reminds me of that Todd Snider song Talkin' Seattle Grunge Rock Blues about the band that refused to play.

Video for context (NSFW for language)

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. †We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1492
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,08:03   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 20 2010,20:56)
Quote (REC @ Feb. 20 2010,21:07)
Who let Allen MacNeill out of moderation? †He's on a tear over there....

Morality

Detect this

How long does this last?

Barry pulled the muzzle off of Mark Frank and Nakashima also. Maybe it was just too boring over there.

They also let superIDiot Joe Gallien (Joe G, Joseph) back in.

I think their declining readership made them finally realize most people go to the circus to see the clowns.

--------------
JoeG: And by eating the cake you are consuming the information- some stays with you and the rest is waste.

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2598
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,08:20   

Quote
idnet.com.au (quoting Shapiro): The concept that the scientists are illustrating is one of Intelligent Design.


Quote
Today, Class, we'll add salt to water to make saltwater, like that found in the world's oceans.

Yes, Timmy, it's called an "experiment." No, it doesn't prove that natural saltwater came from salt dissolving in water, but it does show that salt can dissolve in water supporting the hypothesis. Do you remember the lesson on the scientific method?

Now, Class, fill your beakers ... Huh?

Yes, Timmy. The experiment is "Intelligently Designed." But that doesn't mean the ocean's saltwater was designed. There's no magic involved in making saltwater. Your dad told you what? Oh.

Class, you'll find the salt in the ...

No, Timmy, it doesn't disprove God made the oceans.

{Geez. Should have taught biology instead of chemistry. There's no controversy in biology.}


--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2598
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,10:44   

Quote
Joseph: † † † † † †
Quote
hrun0815: Is it even theoretically possible for a scientist to perform an experiment that does not illustrate the concept of ID?


They need to remove their involvement as much as possible.

For example if they can remove all involvemnet except for the initial conditions that would be a great start.

Start with a stellar nebula.
Allow the accretion of planets.
Let u/v from the nascent star cook organic compounds. (Don't overcook.)
Pepper primordial oceans with the organic compounds.
Gently warm for a hundred million years.

Voilŗ!

Serves a small party.





Bon Appťtit!

--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2598
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,12:18   

Nakashima gets a mention for his work on Uncommon Descent at Talk Reason.

Quote
Joe "Felsenstein": Even in Sewell's announcement of his book at Uncommon Descent, in the comments on that post the pro-evolution commentator "nakashima" has made a fairly devastating critique.


--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2010,13:27   

Quote (Zachriel @ Feb. 21 2010,13:18)
Nakashima gets a mention for his work on Uncommon Descent at Talk Reason.

Quote
Joe "Felsenstein": Even in Sewell's announcement of his book at Uncommon Descent, in the comments on that post the pro-evolution commentator "nakashima" has made a fairly devastating critique.

Nakashima is so farklempt!

--------------
Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,00:57   

Well, Gil is back with kind of a minor post.

Absolutist contributes his own two cents:

Quote
I would argue here that moral absolutes clearly point to a moral law giver, which points to a personal God.


I see. Well, the question of what those moral absolutes might be has been bandied about as recently as this very ATBC page. I wonder what Absolutist considers his best example of such a moral absolute? Thou shalt not kill (See JLT, top of this page)? Thou shalt not steal? Let's check, shall we? OK, Absolutist - hit us with your best shot:

Quote
I mean no one leans over their babyís crib and wish their child to grow up and be a lesbian for example.


Goddam, it's always about teh gay with those dudes.

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,01:07   

No one has commented yet on Sal's comments in the Dahmer thread:

Quote
My best answer is :

What is moral is what and when God decides something is moral.

There is a time for some behaviors and another time for others. There is a time for everything under the sun.

There was a time when the children of Israel were commanded to kill children and then there was a time mercy was the law.

God decides. We try our best to understand what He expects of us.


I know this has been discussed many times here, but son of a bitch - it's OK to kill children if God gives the go ahead, because he is God?

Quote
The basic point is, without some reference point, itís hard to come up with what is moral.


Yeah, that thing about killing children. Kinda morally tricky, eh?


But then I actually appreciated this comment a few minutes later:

Quote
   So, the objective moral code is always objective, but not necessarily always the same?

Donít know.


In case the block quotes don't make it clear, the "Don't know" was from Sal. Has anyone else on UD ever admitted they "don't know" something? Baby steps, Sal. Baby steps.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,01:44   

Church Burning Ebola Boys Arrested.

They turned out to be Baptists.

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10236
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,10:39   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 22 2010,01:44)
Church Burning Ebola Boys Arrested.

They turned out to be Baptists.

DaveTard: Still bringing the wrongety.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,10:54   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 22 2010,10:39)
Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 22 2010,01:44)
Church Burning Ebola Boys Arrested.

They turned out to be Baptists.

DaveTard: Still bringing the wrongety.

From that link

"Investigators say DNA evidence collected at the site of one of several Texas churches destroyed by arson links one of two suspects to the blaze"

What kind of object left at the scene of an arson would contain DNA?

Inquiring minds want to know (or maybe not).

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
† † † † † † † † † † † † - Pattiann Rogers

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,11:01   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 22 2010,10:54)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 22 2010,10:39)
Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 22 2010,01:44)
Church Burning Ebola Boys Arrested.

They turned out to be Baptists.

DaveTard: Still bringing the wrongety.

From that link

"Investigators say DNA evidence collected at the site of one of several Texas churches destroyed by arson links one of two suspects to the blaze"

What kind of object left at the scene of an arson would contain DNA?

Inquiring minds want to know (or maybe not).

Actually, this strengthens the case for ID, because forensic investigators dispensed with methodological naturalism to investigate intelligent agency by reverse engineering the highly complex information processing machine known as DNA.

W00T!!!!

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. †We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Freelurker



Posts: 80
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,11:11   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 22 2010,11:54)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 22 2010,10:39)
Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 22 2010,01:44)
Church Burning Ebola Boys Arrested.

They turned out to be Baptists.

DaveTard: Still bringing the wrongety.

From that link

"Investigators say DNA evidence collected at the site of one of several Texas churches destroyed by arson links one of two suspects to the blaze"

What kind of object left at the scene of an arson would contain DNA?

Inquiring minds want to know (or maybe not).

Arsonists often defecate or urinate where they start the fire, to leave a mark. (Right, maybe you didn't want to know this.)

--------------
Invoking intelligent design in science is like invoking gremlins in engineering. [after Mark Isaak.]
All models are wrong, some models are useful. - George E. P. Box

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2137
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,11:37   

Quote (Freelurker @ Feb. 22 2010,09:11)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 22 2010,11:54)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 22 2010,10:39)
†  
Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 22 2010,01:44)
Church Burning Ebola Boys Arrested.

They turned out to be Baptists.

DaveTard: Still bringing the wrongety.

From that link

"Investigators say DNA evidence collected at the site of one of several Texas churches destroyed by arson links one of two suspects to the blaze"

What kind of object left at the scene of an arson would contain DNA?

Inquiring minds want to know (or maybe not).

Arsonists often defecate or urinate where they start the fire, to leave a mark. (Right, maybe you didn't want to know this.)

or whatever.

btw, the story says they used to attend the Baptist church down the road.  Just sayin'.  Maybe they were shunned, or something.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
JohnW



Posts: 2268
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,12:06   

Quote (bfish @ Feb. 21 2010,23:07)
No one has commented yet on Sal's comments in the Dahmer thread:

 
Quote
My best answer is :

What is moral is what and when God decides something is moral.

There is a time for some behaviors and another time for others. There is a time for everything under the sun.

There was a time when the children of Israel were commanded to kill children and then there was a time mercy was the law.

God decides. We try our best to understand what He expects of us.


I know this has been discussed many times here, but son of a bitch - it's OK to kill children if God gives the go ahead, because he is God?

 
Quote
The basic point is, without some reference point, itís hard to come up with what is moral.


Yeah, that thing about killing children. Kinda morally tricky, eh?


But then I actually appreciated this comment a few minutes later:

 
Quote
† †So, the objective moral code is always objective, but not necessarily always the same?

Donít know.


In case the block quotes don't make it clear, the "Don't know" was from Sal. Has anyone else on UD ever admitted they "don't know" something? Baby steps, Sal. Baby steps.

Thanks for clearing that up, Sal. †

So there's an objective, absolute moral code, which is based on whatever God is telling you to do at the time. †God keeps changing his mind about this moral code (which is objective and absolute), and it's objective, absolute nature is how we know God exists. †

Whenever God changes his mind about the contents of the objective, absolute moral code, and decides he wants us to have a different objective, absolute moral code, we should remember that the moral code is objective and absolute, and follow God's instructions. †Because the moral code is objective and absolute - there is a time for some objective, absolute moral codes and there is a different time for other objective, absoulte moral codes.

I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer would have agreed.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
steve_h



Posts: 533
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,13:15   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Feb. 21 2010,03:56)

Barry pulled the muzzle off of Mark Frank and Nakashima also. Maybe it was just too boring over there.

When was Nakashima muzzled and how long did it last? I may need to ask MSF for some of my money back.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10236
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,15:14   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....ergence

 
Quote
22 February 2010
Upright Biped Explains Emergence
Barry Arrington
In a comment to a prior post





--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,15:48   

fnxtr:
Quote
btw, the story says they used to attend the Baptist church down the road. †Just sayin'. †Maybe they were shunned, or something.

Maybe they burned it down.

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2010,16:10   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 22 2010,15:14)
http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....ergence

† †
Quote
22 February 2010
Upright Biped Explains Emergence
Barry Arrington
In a comment to a prior post




The poor deluded saps.
 
Quote
Bottom line: When materialists resort to ďmagicĒ by another name, we need to call them on it.

Indeed, Barrogant. There's only one side in this debate that is allowed to use "magic".

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
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