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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2011,22:56   

Gilbert Dodgen:
Quote
At age 90 as of 2011, my father is one of the few living scientists who developed the atomic bomb during WWII. He named me after the great physical chemist Gilbert Newton Lewis, under whom my dad earned his Ph.D. in his early 20s while working on the Manhattan Project.

When I was a child in the 1950s rumors spread that the communist Chinese were developing an atomic bomb. I asked my dad, “Why don’t we just keep it a secret from them?” My dad replied, and I’ll never forget it, “Gilbert, the secret is in nature, and it’s there to be found by anyone who looks hard enough.”

Of course, my dad was talking about the nature of the nucleus of the atom, physical chemistry, and the potential for a sustained nuclear chain reaction.

I would like to offer the following observation, inspired by my father’s comment: Design is to be found in nature, by anyone who looks hard enough.

The irony is that figuring out nuclear fission requires quite a bit of searching for “secrets,” while design in nature is there to be found with almost no searching at all. Design screams from every corner of creation. Not finding design in nature is what takes a lot of effort.

Poor Frill's head is going to explode if he tiptoes any closer to the inevitable question.  Dissonance much, Gil?

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
didymos



Posts: 1825
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,00:33   

I don't know why, but the lack of self-awareness over there still stupefies me.  DeNews:

Quote
In fairness, Matzke doesn’t really know much about carnivorous plants, whereas Loennig is clearly an expert.

Matzke has a tendency to rely on pseudo-experts, which can play him false.

His best bet right now, to event he score, would be to bring in a real expert on his side.


Her stupidity is truly awe-inspiring.

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
sparc



Posts: 1708
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,03:40   

Quote (didymos @ Sep. 06 2011,00:33)
I don't know why, but the lack of self-awareness over there still stupefies me.  DeNews:

 
Quote
In fairness, Matzke doesn’t really know much about carnivorous plants, whereas Loennig is clearly an expert.

Matzke has a tendency to rely on pseudo-experts, which can play him false.

His best bet right now, to event he score, would be to bring in a real expert on his side.


Her stupidity is truly awe-inspiring.

Ah, Lönnig again. As usual he cites Behe and other creationists in his article "Carnivorous Plants" that somehow made it into Nature's Encyclopaedia of Life Sciences. Interestingly, he cites Robert Nachtwey's "Der Irrweg des Darwinismus" published 1959. According to a review it contained already everything that Intelligent Design claims today and those arguments were outdated back then:
Quote
We could dispose of this book and its
subject-the misdirection of Darwinism
-in a few sentences. On the basis of its
intrinsic merit it rates only a little space.
But the very fact that such a work could
be published a century after Darwin's
The Origin of Species is interesting in
itself and, to anyone concerned with the
resistance that scientific knowledge often
encounters, this fact is important enough
to merit some study.


ETA link

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,06:15   

Quote
If you are referring to the God of the Bible, then He owes us nothing other than punishment for our crimes against Him. If this makes no sense to you, then you plainly fail to understand simple Biblical theology.

LOL.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
sparc



Posts: 1708
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,06:37   

As if Gil Dodgen never ever mentioned the achievements of his father before:
Quote
3
Robert Byers
September 6, 2011 at 3:12 ame

Didn’t know one of the writers here comes from such a achieving family in the great stories of the use of physics. Too bad its killing people but in reality the atomic bombs had to be used to save people from being killed other ways. The good guys too.
Its cool to have creationism(s) these days with rightfully confident people.



Will Gildo tell Robert that his father is an atheist not dismissing evolution theory?
BTW: Since when is ID creationism?
Or do I miss irony and Mr. Byers pisses off Gildo?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4503
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,06:46   

Quote (didymos @ Sep. 06 2011,00:33)
I don't know why, but the lack of self-awareness over there still stupefies me.  DeNews:

 
Quote
In fairness, Matzke doesn’t really know much about carnivorous plants, whereas Loennig is clearly an expert.

Matzke has a tendency to rely on pseudo-experts, which can play him false.

His best bet right now, to event he score, would be to bring in a real expert on his side.


Her stupidity is truly awe-inspiring.

expert  - n., connotation: Someone who authoritatively tells you what you want to hear.

As long as IDC advocates and cheerleaders go with that, they'll keep giving us those Dover moments in court.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Henry J



Posts: 4078
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,12:24   

And here I though an expert was somebody what used to be a pert...

  
Woodbine



Posts: 787
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,12:26   

Well I learned something today. For as long as I can remember I had been pronouncing Gil with a soft G but now I discover it's short for Gilbert.

Gilbert Dodgen.

Someone really ought to tell him the Universe is taking the piss out of him. The only other Gil I am aware of is Gil Gerard (Buck Rogers). And so without further excuse here's a picture of the lovely Wilma Deering.

(snatched from wilmadeering.com believe it or not)


  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3568
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,12:49   

Doesn't this post break some kind of rule at UD?

there is no systematic relationship between IQ and achievement

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
BillB



Posts: 359
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,13:58   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 06 2011,18:24)
And here I though an expert was somebody what used to be a pert...

ex-pert. (Noun):  female breasts that have succumbed to the forces of gravity and age.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3568
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,14:03   

I don't know if this has been posted, but the new Koonin book is available free for download At Amazon. If you non't have a Kindle, you can download a free reader.

The News at UD is rather stupidly touting it as an ID friendly book.

Details here:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyng....freebie

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,14:04   

Quote (BillB @ Sep. 06 2011,19:58)
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 06 2011,18:24)
And here I though an expert was somebody what used to be a pert...

ex-pert. (Noun):  female breasts that have succumbed to the forces of gravity and age.

There's an excellent section of "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue"* in which new definitions are given to old words. For example:

Countryside: To kill Piers Morgan.

Coquette: Small penis.

And so on and so forth.

Louis

* The Radio 4 show that gave us Mornington Crescent.

--------------
Bye.

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,14:34   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 06 2011,14:04)
 
Quote (BillB @ Sep. 06 2011,19:58)
 
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 06 2011,18:24)
And here I though an expert was somebody what used to be a pert...

ex-pert. (Noun):  female breasts that have succumbed to the forces of gravity and age.

There's an excellent section of "I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue"* in which new definitions are given to old words. For example:

Countryside: To kill Piers Morgan.

Coquette: Small penis.

And so on and so forth.

Louis

* The Radio 4 show that gave us Mornington Crescent.

rec·ti·tude  (r?kt?-t??d, -ty??d) n. the honorable, upright demeanor assumed by your proctologist as he prepares to examine you.

ETA:  those length-marked vowels looked just fine in preview.

--------------
"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
Raevmo



Posts: 235
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,17:48   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 06 2011,14:03)
I don't know if this has been posted, but the new Koonin book is available free for download At Amazon. If you non't have a Kindle, you can download a free reader.

The News at UD is rather stupidly touting it as an ID friendly book.

Details here:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyng....freebie

That is putting is mildly. Quote from Koonin's book:

"Of course, ID is malicious nonsense"

Bwahaha

--------------
After much reflection I finally realized that the best way to describe the cause of the universe is: the great I AM.

--GilDodgen

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4244
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,17:57   

The universe implodes as DeNudes opines on IQ, snatching an illustration from the Wikipedia article on IQ, uncredited.

That article also states:

"The American Psychological Association's report 'Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns' states that wherever it has been studied, children with high scores on tests of intelligence tend to learn more of what is taught in school than their lower-scoring peers. The correlation between IQ scores and grades is about .50. This means that the explained variance is 25%."

And

"The validity of IQ as a predictor of job performance is above zero for all work studied to date, but varies with the type of job and across different studies, ranging from 0.2 to 0.6. The correlations were higher when the unreliability of measurement methods were controlled for. While IQ is more strongly correlated with reasoning and less so with motor function, IQ-test scores predict performance ratings in all occupations."

And

"The American Psychological Association's 1995 report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that IQ scores accounted for (explained variance) about quarter of the social status variance and one-sixth of the income variance. Statistical controls for parental SES eliminate about a quarter of this predictive power. Psychometric intelligence appears as only one of a great many factors that influence social outcomes."

There are many caveats; academic performance, job performance and income are all complexly and multiply determined. IQ has a relationship with each of them, stronger in some instances than in others.

From this DeNudes concludes:
Quote
within a normal range - there is no systematic relationship between IQ and achievement.

*Facepalm*

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3568
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,20:20   

But will Gil conclude from this that there is not a strong correlation between daddy's career achievements and the achievements of his web potato child?

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,21:23   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 07 2011,08:57)
The universe implodes as DeNudes opines on IQ, snatching an illustration from the Wikipedia article on IQ, uncredited.

That article also states:

"The American Psychological Association's report 'Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns' states that wherever it has been studied, children with high scores on tests of intelligence tend to learn more of what is taught in school than their lower-scoring peers. The correlation between IQ scores and grades is about .50. This means that the explained variance is 25%."

And

"The validity of IQ as a predictor of job performance is above zero for all work studied to date, but varies with the type of job and across different studies, ranging from 0.2 to 0.6. The correlations were higher when the unreliability of measurement methods were controlled for. While IQ is more strongly correlated with reasoning and less so with motor function, IQ-test scores predict performance ratings in all occupations."

And

"The American Psychological Association's 1995 report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that IQ scores accounted for (explained variance) about quarter of the social status variance and one-sixth of the income variance. Statistical controls for parental SES eliminate about a quarter of this predictive power. Psychometric intelligence appears as only one of a great many factors that influence social outcomes."

There are many caveats; academic performance, job performance and income are all complexly and multiply determined. IQ has a relationship with each of them, stronger in some instances than in others.

From this DeNudes concludes:
Quote
within a normal range - there is no systematic relationship between IQ and achievement.

*Facepalm*

Isn't the data skewed because a lot of the high IQ people were not interested in "achieving". I've met a lot of very smart people who were contented with a job that gave them enough resources to follow their own passions.

  
sparc



Posts: 1708
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,22:27   

Quote (MichaelJ @ Sep. 06 2011,21:23)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 07 2011,08:57)
The universe implodes as DeNudes opines on IQ, snatching an illustration from the Wikipedia article on IQ, uncredited.

That article also states:

"The American Psychological Association's report 'Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns' states that wherever it has been studied, children with high scores on tests of intelligence tend to learn more of what is taught in school than their lower-scoring peers. The correlation between IQ scores and grades is about .50. This means that the explained variance is 25%."

And

"The validity of IQ as a predictor of job performance is above zero for all work studied to date, but varies with the type of job and across different studies, ranging from 0.2 to 0.6. The correlations were higher when the unreliability of measurement methods were controlled for. While IQ is more strongly correlated with reasoning and less so with motor function, IQ-test scores predict performance ratings in all occupations."

And

"The American Psychological Association's 1995 report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns stated that IQ scores accounted for (explained variance) about quarter of the social status variance and one-sixth of the income variance. Statistical controls for parental SES eliminate about a quarter of this predictive power. Psychometric intelligence appears as only one of a great many factors that influence social outcomes."

There are many caveats; academic performance, job performance and income are all complexly and multiply determined. IQ has a relationship with each of them, stronger in some instances than in others.

From this DeNudes concludes:
 
Quote
within a normal range - there is no systematic relationship between IQ and achievement.

*Facepalm*

Isn't the data skewed because a lot of the high IQ people were not interested in "achieving". I've met a lot of very smart people who were contented with a job that gave them enough resources to follow their own passions.

Isn't a job that gives
Quote
them enough resources to follow their own passions
already quite some achievement?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2011,23:33   

all you white people want to do is work work work.  i'll lay here under this pawpaw tree and mind the fishing line tied to my toe whilst i take sips from pap's peartenin' juice

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,00:16   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 06 2011,12:24)
And here I though an expert was somebody what used to be a pert...

"X" = the mathematical symbol for the unknown.

"Spurt" = a drip under pressure.

So an expert is an unknown drip under pressure.

UD is full of experts.

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1956
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,03:24   

Quote (sparc @ Sep. 06 2011,20:27)
Quote
Isn't the data skewed because a lot of the high IQ people were not interested in "achieving". I've met a lot of very smart people who were contented with a job that gave them enough resources to follow their own passions.

Isn't a job that gives  
Quote
them enough resources to follow their own passions
already quite some achievement?



I recall vaguely a "zen*" story about a student asking a teacher about what a "miracle" was, the reply;

Sleep when you are tired, eat when you are hungry.



*I doubt it is associated with any actual Zen Buddhist teaching. More likely Nichiren Buddhism, since they are not (as) opposed to gratifying physical desires like fatigue and hunger rationalized under the teaching of "Expedient Means."

Edited by Dr.GH on Sep. 07 2011,01:25

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,06:47   

Quote (Raevmo @ Sep. 06 2011,17:48)
   
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 06 2011,14:03)
I don't know if this has been posted, but the new Koonin book is available free for download At Amazon. If you non't have a Kindle, you can download a free reader.

The News at UD is rather stupidly touting it as an ID friendly book.

Details here:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyng....freebie

That is putting is mildly. Quote from Koonin's book:

"Of course, ID is malicious nonsense"

Bwahaha


Reality is settling in:
 
Quote
Cannuckian Yankee 4.1 Incidentally, News, I’m now on the 2nd Chapter and it appears that it’s not exactly a “Darwin-free book.” Koonin appears to have more of a problem with the “Hardness” and dogmatism of the modern synthesis; thus the Preface: “Toward a Postmodern Synthesis of Evolutionary Biology.” He praises Darwin and those who further praise Darwin; even mentioning Dobzhansky’s famous “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,” not once, but twice for emphasis.

One thing I can tell you about the book – it’s very well written and easy to follow. He’s not so much interested in the fine details as he is in the “big picture.” He states at the beginning that he first intended it to be a popular Tome like that of Hawking, but later revised it to be a bit more “scientific” but not technical.

They do get a little encouragement.  Koonin apparently thinks that abiogenesis is a 1 in 10^thousand or so  event.

Thanks for the publicity, Denyse!

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3568
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,07:28   

Koonin lists a number of abiogenesis scenarios and pronounces one of them as being a long shot.

The ID friendliness is diluted by the fact that his main point is we don't know how it happened.

But he does fall back to the multiverse as a way of overcoming odds.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3568
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,07:48   

Quote
One thing I can tell you about the book – it’s very well written and easy to follow. He’s not so much interested in the fine details as he is in the “big picture.” He states at the beginning that he first intended it to be a popular Tome like that of Hawking, but later revised it to be a bit more “scientific” but not technical.


This seems right to me. It's extremely well written, and unless there are boneheaded errors, it's going to be a classic on the order of The Selfish Gene.

It seems to hit every point that ever comes up in evolution debates, and except for OOL, it nails them down tight.

There's a -- perhaps unnecessary -- section on postmodernism, which quietly takes it down. Concluding that most big subjects in science, including physics, are incomplete and provisional, with overlapping "narratives," each of which reliably describes some phenomena, but which fail to be the grand unifying theory. There's an implied "so what."

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Fross



Posts: 71
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,09:34   

Quote (Raevmo @ Sep. 06 2011,17:48)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 06 2011,14:03)
I don't know if this has been posted, but the new Koonin book is available free for download At Amazon. If you non't have a Kindle, you can download a free reader.

The News at UD is rather stupidly touting it as an ID friendly book.

Details here:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyng....freebie

That is putting is mildly. Quote from Koonin's book:

"Of course, ID is malicious nonsense"

Bwahaha

Did  de News really just get excited over a new book on evolution because it knocks over her cartoon understanding of "Darwinism"?  

Too bad she doesn't read beyond the cover slips.   It seems most of her anti-Darwin rage was based on her understanding of the Selfish Gene book cover.  (according to her, that's the gene that makes us act selfishly and therefore evolve)

--------------
"For everything else, there's Mastertard"

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3568
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,09:45   

Quote
Did  de News really just get excited over a new book on evolution because it knocks over her cartoon understanding of "Darwinism"?


I have to say that after following the "debate" for several decades (starting with Gould's essays), there is little in the Koonin book that I've never heard of.

But it's a relentless pounding of creationism and ID, even though it never mentions them in the body of the book.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1238
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,10:08   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 06 2011,17:57)
There are many caveats; academic performance, job performance and income are all complexly and multiply determined. IQ has a relationship with each of them, stronger in some instances than in others.

From this DeNudes concludes:
   
Quote
within a normal range - there is no systematic relationship between IQ and achievement.

*Facepalm*

DeNews' proof that IQ does not correlate to achievement:  Look at all the blogs I have achieved!

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Amadan



Posts: 1255
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,15:49   

Quote (sparc @ Sep. 07 2011,04:27)
Isn't a job that gives      
Quote
them enough resources to follow their own passions
already quite some achievement?

As often before, I return to Kliban, the master:



--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,15:57   

I like Kilban, new to me! Found this, seems relevant to ID.



--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2136
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2011,16:21   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 07 2011,13:57)
I like Kilban, new to me! Found this, seems relevant to ID.


I was just thinking ID is like that scene in Sleeper where Allen and Keaton are asked to check the cell structure of the clone. Hilarity (or at least a mild chuckle) ensues.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
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