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"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2006,13:43    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Dec. 02 2006,12:19) It isn't just the military that need it. Almost all production and distribution in developed nations depends upon oil; As does power generation in a lot of countries. That is true, but that is not the US motive -- after all, the US gets only about one-sixth of its oil from the Middle East.  The US military, meanwhile, is, far and away, the largest single user of oil in the country -- it utilizes, all by itself, about 2% of the ***entire annual consumption of oil in the US***.  The US Air Force, by itself, spends over $4.7 billion per year just on jet fuel.   Industry and private consumers can, at least theoretically, utilize other sources of energy -- solar, wind power, etc.  The military can't.  It's stuff runs on oil, and nothing BUT oil.  There are no solar-powered aircraft carriers, and no hydrogen-powered battle tanks.  If it comes down to the choice between oil for the military and oil for the economy, the military will get it.  That is the purpose behind the US Strategic Oil Reserve, which is stored in Louisiana.  It's, uh, not there so people can heat their houses in the winter. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1754 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2006,14:07    Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Dec. 02 2006,13:43) Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Dec. 02 2006,12:19) It isn't just the military that need it. Almost all production and distribution in developed nations depends upon oil; As does power generation in a lot of countries. That is true, but that is not the US motive -- after all, the US gets only about one-sixth of its oil from the Middle East.  The US military, meanwhile, is, far and away, the largest single user of oil in the country -- it utilizes, all by itself, about 2% of the ***entire annual consumption of oil in the US***.  The US Air Force, by itself, spends over $4.7 billion per year just on jet fuel.   Industry and private consumers can, at least theoretically, utilize other sources of energy -- solar, wind power, etc.  The military can't.  It's stuff runs on oil, and nothing BUT oil.  There are no solar-powered aircraft carriers, and no hydrogen-powered battle tanks.  If it comes down to the choice between oil for the military and oil for the economy, the military will get it.  That is the purpose behind the US Strategic Oil Reserve, which is stored in Louisiana.  It's, uh, not there so people can heat their houses in the winter. http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/oil.html I am not sure of the reliability of that site, but it claims... Quote USA oil The USA imports about 55% of its oil needs. Sources of U.S. Oil Imports (millions of barrels per day, 2001): Canada: 1.79 - Saudi Arabia: 1.66 - Venezuela: 1.54 - Mexico: 1.42 - Nigeria: .86 - Iraq: .78 - Norway: .33 - Angola: .32 - United Kingdom: .31 - Total: 11.62. (Source: Energy Information Administration). Sources of U.S. Oil Imports (%, 2002): Saudi Arabia: 16.9% - Mexico: 15.1% - Canada: 15.0% - Venezuela: 14.4% - Iraq: 11.4% - Nigeria: 5.9.%. only about 30% of the USA's oil imports came from Arab countries in 2002. Since USA oil imports are about 55% of USA oil consumption, only about 15% of USA's oil consumption is provided by Arab countries. About 40% of oil in the USA is used to produce gasoline. Where did your figures come from? I just did a quick google search.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2006,15:49    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Dec. 02 2006,14:07) Where did your figures come from? From the US Department of Defense. If you ask them nicely, they'll tell you just about anything you want to know.   They're already worried about their dependecne on oil.  They are already seeking to have 25% of Defense Department electricity needs (the DoD itself uses about 55% of total US government electricity consumption) to come from renewable resources. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2006,20:11    The US Navy operates the greatest number of nuclear reactors on the planet and they are also the most successful operators.  Obviously it is not feasable to run a nuclear-powered jet.  Still we have to be fair a give credit where credit is due.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2006,21:30    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 02 2006,20:11) The US Navy operates the greatest number of nuclear reactors on the planet and they are also the most successful operators.  Obviously it is not feasable to run a nuclear-powered jet.  Still we have to be fair a give credit where credit is due. For the most part, only the carriers and the subs are nuclear.  Both of them will be drastically cut in coming years. The support ships, moreover, all run on fuel oil.  And without them, the carriers can't sail ten miles. The Navy, nuclear or not, is just as utterly dependent upon oil as all the rest of the military is. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2006,21:34    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 02 2006,09:11) The World perpetuates the US super-power role by relying on the US for so much. Um, what, exactly, does "the world" rely on the US for . . . . I'm a little curious.  Particularly since the US has, in the past six years particularly,. gone out of its way to openly thumb its nose at the rest of the world, and has openly declared that (1) international law doesn't apply to the US, and (2) we can do whatever the #### we want whether the UN (or anyone else) likes it or not. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2006,22:57    In the simplest terms the World relies on US money and international law has no meaning to the US, or it shouldn't but our Supreme Court failed to get that memo.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,00:01    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 02 2006,22:57) In the simplest terms the World relies on US money Huh? Are you REALLY that uninformed? The US can't even compete, economically. Were it not for CHINESE money, the US economy would have collapsed long ago. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,00:14    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 02 2006,22:57) international law has no meaning to the US, or it shouldn't but our Supreme Court failed to get that memo. Perhaps the Supreme Court, unlike you, understands the simple fact that international law, all of it, takes the form of treaties that the US government signed and ratified.  And under US law, all of those treaties are legally binding on the US, and it is illegal, under American law, to violate any of them. But I'm curious --- is it just the US that, you think, has the right to simply ignore international law, or do other nations have that right too? Why, for example, didn't Saddam get to ignore international law when he invaded Kuwait?  Or when he used nerve gas against the Kurds?  Remember all that bitching and moaning the Reagan Administration did about the USSR violating all sorts of treaties? Remember all those "war crimes" under "international law" that the Nazis got hanged for?  Remember those "international laws" that Milosovic went on trial for?  Or the ones that Saddam went on trial for?  What the #### were we bitching and moaning about, if international law doesn't mean diddley? Why is it, precisely, that others have to follow international law (didn't we launch both Gulf Wars under the authority of "United Nations Resolutions and International Law"?), but we *don't* have to follow them ourselves?  Just privileged, are we? Note to the rest of the world:  THIS is the sort of pig-ignorant arrogance that you are dealing with.  PLEASE stop us before it is too late.  We absolutely will not stop ourselves. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,00:50    Quote That is true, but that is not the US motive -- after all, the US gets only about one-sixth of its oil from the Middle East. Yes, but if the oil in the Middle East were taken out of circulation or used up, then all the countries that DO buy from the Middle East -- e.g. Japan, India, and especially, China -- would then start competing with us for oil from Mexico, Venezuela and Nigeria. One of the big reasons for the price of oil going up is China's demand for it going through the roof. And we may only get a fraction of our oil there, but just that amount still makes certain very well connected oil companies very wealthy. Believe me, oil is half of why we're over there. The other half is Israel. The 'spreading democracy' line is a load of shit to make the rubes go along with it. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,01:37    Quote Were it not for CHINESE money, the US economy would have collapsed long ago. yup, the chinese are by far and away the largest holder of US debt.  It's around a trillion bucks, IIRC. Imagine what would happen if they decided to call in that marker? Morever, South America has been establishing its own standard economies for the last 15 years, and are now beginning to thumb their noses at the US (with good reason and to good effect). The European dollar is gaining strength against the US dollar daily; the chinese are not cooperating with the US in raising the value of their own currency, which drops the value of the dollar even further... -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1754 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,02:19    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 02 2006,22:57) In the simplest terms the World relies on US money and international law has no meaning to the US, or it shouldn't but our Supreme Court failed to get that memo. Are you serious, or just taking the piss?

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,08:01    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 03 2006,00:50) Yes, but if the oil in the Middle East were taken out of circulation or used up, then all the countries that DO buy from the Middle East -- e.g. Japan, India, and especially, China -- would then start competing with us for oil from Mexico, Venezuela and Nigeria. Yep. It is also a not inconsideable fact that Middle Eastern petro-dollars, invested in Europe and the US, help prop up the world economy. As for Venezuela, the US dependence on Venezuelan oil is a major reason why Hugo Chavez's independent-from-the-US stance is so dangerous to the US (particularly since that independence is spreading to Bolivia and Nicaragua). Look for the next administration (whether Democrat or Republican) to clamp down, hard, on South America. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,08:17    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 03 2006,00:50) The 'spreading democracy' line is a load of shit to make the rubes go along with it. The "spreading/supporting/defending democracy" line has ALWAYS been a load of shit.  US actions for the past 60 years demonstrate that it doesn't give a flying fig about "democracy".  In accordance with US interests, the US has, in the past few decades, supported a whole string of unelected dictators who never had to face an election (Marcos, Somoza, Batista, Pahlavi, Pinochet, every Arab regime in the Middle East), supported governments who flat-out stole dishonest elections (Mexico, Ukraine), overthrew democratically-elected governments that it didn't like (Mossadegh, Allende, Arbenz), and is currently withdrawing its support from governments it doesn't like who won elections (Palestine, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Bolivia). -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Alan Fox Posts: 1327 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,09:21    Quote The European dollar Where can I get my hands on some?

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,11:33    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 02 2006,22:57) In the simplest terms the World relies on US money and international law has no meaning to the US, or it shouldn't but our Supreme Court failed to get that memo. I think someone watched too many films in high school civics class back in the 1950's... -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Ichthyic Posts: 3325 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,14:37    Quote Where can I get my hands on some? convert late night text: european dollars to:  Euros. conversion rate one to one. -------------- "And the sea will grant each man new hope..." -CC

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,15:16    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 03 2006,11:33) I think someone watched too many films in high school civics class back in the 1950's... Don't be too hard on Skeptic ---- he is the victim of a relentless propaganda blitz.  Virtually everyone in the US sincerely believes that the US is loved the world over, is every nation's friend, and is enthusiastically welcomed wherever it goes as a benevolent friend and liberator.  The US is simply the best at everything, and everyone loves us, follows our leadership willingly, and wants to be just like us. The bitter truth, of course, is quite different.  In most of the world, the US is viewed, quite rightly, as predatory, selfish and hypocritical -- a supporter of unelected dictators who kill their own people, and the opponent of every social movement that attempts to make things better for people in other countries.   However, we in the US are not exposed to any information to that effect, whatsoever.  On the rare occasions when we get a glimpse of global anti-American sentiment, we glibly dismiss it as just the work of a handful of malcontented commies (or, more recently, Islamic terrorists). Since, in the US, we have no collective memory and therefore no history, we are quite unable to learn lessons from our own past.  Instead, we blunder again and again and again and again into the same old actions for the same old reasons, and never learn a thing from any of it. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Alan Fox Posts: 1327 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,15:57    Quote The bitter truth, of course, is quite different.  In most of the world, the US is viewed, quite rightly, as predatory, selfish and hypocritical -- a supporter of unelected dictators who kill their own people, and the opponent of every social movement that attempts to make things better for people in other countries. I think you are being too hard on the US, Lenny. People can distinguish between individuals and Government policy. It's MacDonald's that give the US a bad name in my part of the world. Learn to laugh at yourselves as a nation and the world will laugh with you.

tiredofthesos Posts: 59 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,16:27    Lenny, answering Skeptic once is as much as any reasonable person should be willing to extend themselves, in the name of courtesy. He sees himself as reasonable and knowledgeable - a person whose very faults serve to accentuate his perfection - while having proven himself to be uninformed and completely unwilling (or unable) to challenge even the slightest of his rather foul set of nationalistic/spiritual beliefs.  One can't really have a discussion with someone who, like Odysseus' crew, fears the song of the sirens so much they stop their ears with wax.

tiredofthesos Posts: 59 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,16:47    Oh, and Alan - I sincerely envy someone who is capable of spelling Mickey D's as "MacDonald's" as it proves you have not been exposed to lethal doses of the franchise's advertising.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,18:47    Quote (Alan Fox @ Dec. 03 2006,15:57) I think you are being too hard on the US, Lenny. People can distinguish between individuals and Government policy. Indeed, it is not the American people that brought this all about. Although, it should be pointed out, most American people are utterly painfully pig-ignorant (perhaps willfully so) about anything that is going on around them.  We are, it seems, a servile people who are easily led around by the nose, unquestioningly. In any other nation on this planet, if a leader had assumed power with less than half of the popular vote, abrogated international law, imprisoned people indefinately without trial based on secret evidence obtained through torture, and invaded several nations based on false premises, the people would be in the streets, and that government would fall. In the US, we just shrug and go back to watching "American Idol".  And about half of us will, perhaps, bother to vote. In a democracy, people get exactly the sort of government that they deserve.   We deserve what we got. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,18:51    Quote (tiredofthesos @ Dec. 03 2006,16:27) Lenny, answering Skeptic once is as much as any reasonable person should be willing to extend themselves, in the name of courtesy. He sees himself as reasonable and knowledgeable - a person whose very faults serve to accentuate his perfection - while having proven himself to be uninformed and completely unwilling (or unable) to challenge even the slightest of his rather foul set of nationalistic/spiritual beliefs.  One can't really have a discussion with someone who, like Odysseus' crew, fears the song of the sirens so much they stop their ears with wax. Alas, though, you will find that Skeptic is not atypical.  Most Americans are exactly the same way. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Richard Simons Posts: 425 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,19:15    Lenny - I hope your next endeavours are successful. I think you are quite right in your assessment of the US's reputation. I'm a Brit who has spent half his life in Canada, where the US refusal to abide by the rules of NAFTA (the free trade agreement) has upset a lot of people. At the time of 7/11 I was working in Southern Africa where Americans are seen as being ignorant and arrogant. I tried to convince others that it is always the most objectionable people who are the most conspicuous and if you visit the US you'll find many people who are friendly and generous but I don't think I persuaded many. The general reaction to 7/11 amongst my colleagues (many of whom had higher degrees from Western Europe or North America) was 'They've had it coming to them for a long time' and 'Perhaps now they will appreciate what they've done to other people'. It was widely hoped that it would encourage the US to take a step back and ask why they were so hated, but all I saw along these lines (but I could easily have missed the debate) was 'We're clearly great guys so we need to do a better selling job.' And personally, I am rather cynical about the 'War on Terror' as I remember the IRA's bombing campaign in Britain, funded largely by Americans and with the support of many US politicians. -------------- All sweeping statements are wrong.

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,19:33    Quote In any other nation on this planet, if a leader had assumed power with less than half of the popular vote, abrogated international law, imprisoned people indefinitely without trial based on secret evidence obtained through torture, and invaded several nations based on false premises, the people would be in the streets, and that government would fall. In the UK general election in 2005 Tony Blair won with 35% of the popular vote(22% of the electorate), although that generally represents a complete breakdown of public trust in government. There was a vote in the commons that was meant to extend the time people could be detained without trial that was narrowly defeated. The next day several papers declared the MPs who voted the bill down to be traitors. Although recently arrests in the UK actually mirrored the extreme scenario that the government said would require longer detention (involvement of foreign governments, encrypted files, etc.) and it was handled perfectly well in the time. Don't know about the torture thing, but our government has all but admitted it knows the CIA is using UK airports to transport people to eastern Europe for torture. As for Americans we basically think you are either Larry the cable guy, Bill O'Reilly or George Clooney . I was going to say Ann Coulter instead of Bill O'Reilly but everyone here thinks she's a parody like Stephen Colbert.

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,20:13    Quote (Richard Simons @ Dec. 03 2006,19:15) It was widely hoped that it would encourage the US to take a step back and ask why they were so hated Alas, most people in the US don't even know that the US **is** so widely hated. Like Skeptic, they think everyone loves the USA because we hand out chocolate bars, bubble gum and money to everyone. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,20:16    Yeah we would but your chocolate bars suck .

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,20:45    Back during Gulf War I, the military started handing out special chocolate bars that were designed not to melt in the desert.  Since my brother-in-law was a Marine back then, I got to try some. Blecccchhhhhh. The poor Iraqi kids probably thought we were trying to poison them. -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1754 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 03 2006,22:48    Lenny, I think you are a tad hard on the USA. The foreign policy may suck but that is true of just about every country in the World. Everybody seems to put short term national interest first. Still the USA is one of the few countries I would consider living in should I choose to emigrate (but I doubt that will ever happen). Coming under atack by the sort of people that carried out the Sep 11 atrocity should be a badge of honour rather than a cause for concern. Look at the policies those people endorse when they have power. Truly frightening. EDIT: Having said that, I do think that it is irresponsible for any democratic government to sponsor dictatorships. Yet they all do so to some extent. Shamefull really. I think I would like to see a world where democracies formed a new organisation and only dealt with each other. Probably too idealistic but it might just work and force more countries to treat their citizens better.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 04 2006,01:14    Quote (Chris Hyland @ Dec. 03 2006,20:16) Yeah we would but your chocolate bars suck . If you think this, clearly you haven't tried Russian chocolate. Just don't. Trust me. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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