Joined: Oct. 2007
|Quote (The whole truth @ May 25 2012,04:27)|
"As you can see, if you listen to what she says, it was not a "friendly offer" from her point of view."
Well, my point of view is that her point of view is ridiculous.
Seriously? I think JLT disagrees that it was a "friendly offer", I think Christine disagrees also, I would guess that your daughter would disagree that, from RW's point of view, that it was "ridiculous."
"No. Is it relevant in this context?"
I think it is. If the guy had been one of the ones I mentioned or someone similar I think that she would have bragged about the situation instead of saying "Guys, don't do that". And like I said before, they were just WORDS, unless you can show evidence of the guy in the elevator doing more than just saying something. Can you?
OK. Let's hold on to this idea for a few minutes.
"Again, you don't have to "wonder" because that isn't what happened. Is there a point to wondering what would have happened if one of those people you mentioned was the guy on the elevator? "
See my comment above.
OK. Again... for the sake of discussion let's hold on to that idea.
"All RW did was mention the incident and say, “Guys, don’t do that.” It took all of, what, 30 seconds? a minute? in an eight minute video which was little more than a sort of two-weeks-in-review update."
Precisely WHY should guys not do that?
Did you listen to what RW said in the video?
Did you read and comprehend what JLT said?
Even if you (or the EG) could care less about RWs "ridiculous" point of view, at the very least, it is obviously not a very successful strategy for getting some time with a woman in your hotel room whether all you want to do is talk or use her ladyparts for a little while.
And what exactly did the guy do? Are you saying that men should not ever talk to women in elevators, or ask women if they would like to come to their room for coffee, or ask women any other question that the woman MIGHT take as a proposition for sex or something else that the woman MIGHT think is inappropriate? For fuck's sake, they were just WORDS.
I talk to women all the time on the elevator... almost every day and some times several times a day, I even sometimes ask them if they want to go and have coffee. Since I am at work and I know the person I am speaking with it is usually more like, "I am going to the cafe for coffee... can I get you something?"
One thing I do NOT do is ask a woman (or any person for that matter) that doesn't even know my name or who I am, at 4AM, alone on an elevator, in a foreign country, who I have listened to speak all day, and most of the night about objectification of women and how it really turns women off, who has said they are tired and going to bed because they have a long day tomorrow, up to my room for a little chat over coffee.
It would not just be wrong; it would be stupid. It would clearly show that I had absolutely no consideration for the other person.
If I was so attracted to RW I would have tried to talk to her at the conference or at the bar. I would not have followed her out of the bar and slunk on to the same elevator to try and get a chance to talk to her. To do so would project a lack of self confidence, cowardice, and just general overall creepiness.
It is not what RW "MIGHT" think... EG, in those few "WORDS," was practically screaming, "I am a LOSER! (but would you like to have coffee with me in my room at 4AM even though you are dead tired and have a busy day tomorrow, etc...")
EG starts with, "Don't take this the wrong way...." which basically tells RW that he has at least considered that she might "take it the wrong way" and then, with complete disregard for how she may see it, he goes right on ahead.
Did the guy whip out his dick and demand that she have sex with him? Did he grab her and force her to his room? Did he brandish a weapon? Did he even say anything about sex?
He didn't have to. He already transmitted enough signals, both explicit and implied, that he was a creep.
If it had been the other way around and SHE were the one doing the asking, would your perception and opinion about the 'alleged' situation be the same?
Pretty much, yes... with some fundamental differences. The main difference is if the situation is reversed it will not be equal. You demonstrate that in your story below.
[snip long story that is NOT the equivalent of RW's story]
Now, there are a couple of points here. First, I wasn't 'offended' by her questions or offers, but she was offended by my refusal to go home with her and that she had to ask for a kiss. Of course no one forced her to ask but she 'felt' that she 'had' to ask. Another point is that she, a woman, and a good looking one at that, was not used to hearing the word "no" and it clearly irritated her. If I hadn't suggested the next night date and explained my "We'll see" comment she would have been totally pissed and ordered me out of the car.
If you think for one minute that all men are obnoxious when it comes to making offers to women, try saying no to a woman who makes an offer to you, and especially a sexual offer.
.... and you turned her down. Yet getting back to the idea you had earlier, that if EG was attractive enough (whatever that means), then she would not have turned down his offer. How do you figure? How is the situation RW described in her video equivalent to your story?
Believe it or not, I know a guy who says that it's more fun to watch the pissed off way women react to the word "no" than it is to actually go home with them. I know what he means.
I believe there are some people like that. I certainly believe that you know a guy like that. I have no idea how much "more fun" it is to watch how women react to the word "no" than it is to go home with them. Perhaps your friend knows what it is like to be objectified and doesn't like it.
Was it more "fun" for you to say "no" to the attractive woman in your story than it was to go home with her? Since you said "no," how would you know?
So, should I have been offended by the blond's offer to come home with her?
I dunno... up to you. Is there any way you might have been offended?
Should I have made a public issue of it? (Remember, at that point she had known me for an hour or so and still had no idea whether I might be married, gay, or just didn't like blonds.)
Well you have posted your story on the internet ;-)
Should I have done so when other women have offered me something, including sex?
Was this the first time you ever told that story?
Does my being a guy matter? If so, why exactly?
Yes it does matter. The reason it matters is because it isn't about you.
You have heard the terms 'equality' and 'women's lib', haven't you? I know I have, plenty of times, and not in a calm way many of the times. The words "I'm equal, I don't need a man, I can take care of myself, this is the 90s." will ring in my ears forever.
Your situation, your story, your point of view is not equal.
If women want to be thought of 'equally' and be treated 'equally' they need to STOP being two-faced, demanding, paranoid, easily offended prima donnas who want everything that men may have or achieve and expect special treatment too. Equality is EQUALITY, not special favors, and most women say that they want equality in everything, not just the workplace. Some women have figured it out but many have not.
My main point is that there's nothing wrong with asking questions or making offers, unless a PERSON (male or female) won't take no for the answer. If I were to get pissed every time someone asks me something or offers me something, including sex, I'd sure be pissed a lot. If I don't want something or don't want to do something I am very able and willing to say no, and I don't need any support from anyone else to do so. I can stand up for myself.
It isn't about you.
And if anyone thinks that I'm a card carrying woman hater, think again. I have a grown daughter that I love more than anything and who I raised to be fair and to stand up for herself when necessary, and I'm ALL FOR equality as long as it actually is EQUALITY. And if you think that the situation in the elevator and the subsequent big stink about it has nothing to do with equality, you have a lot to learn.
As you noted earlier if the guy was attractive enough she would have accepted the offer bragged about it yet, you yourself, in what you think is an equivalent situation, turned down the offer. I have no idea if you ever bragged about it.
My point is... you are holding RW to a different standard than yourself so perhaps things are not as equal as you think they are or should be.
By the way, has the guy in the elevator ever told his side of the story? I don't remember if I ever saw his version.
I very much doubt he ever will.
"RW gets out plenty. She is invited to talks, conferences, and conventions all around the world all the time."
Big deal. That has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
You said, ".... she has lead a very sheltered life and needs to get out more."
Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory