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BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2012,11:46   

Comment from somewhere else about the whole monstrous comedy:

Can't have a church without some kind of sexual hangups I guess.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2012,11:48   

To me, this is a really, really big molehill.

Was there attempted rape?  Yes, report to police.  No, ignore it.

Was there a pass made? Are you interested?  yes to both... go on from there.  No to either... say 'no' walk away.

I don't think I have the proper "feminist" response, which is why the group at FTB doesn't like me.  Apparently, the proper response is to think all men are terrible (except for, maybe, the men who also think that all men are terrible) for even suggesting that a woman might be interested in sex.

My wife has been propositioned several times since we've been married.  She said, "Sorry, happily married, not interested."  End of story.  If it had gone any farther than that, then police need to be involved.  It's pretty simple... to me.  

Of course, I'm not the one being propositioned either.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
clamboy



Posts: 155
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2012,14:41   

Gals are just so darn lucky to have us guys around to tell them how to respond to unwanted advances!

Just remember, ladies: 1) be flattered; 2) never hurt a man's feelings; 3) men are rational creatures: no matter how aggressive, excuse me, assertive they are, they will always respect your space and calmly accept "no"; 4) because of (3), there is never an inappropriate time, place, or method of come-on, so deal with it; 5) always follow up "no" with "thanks so much, I'm really flattered, but I'm not sure I can handle such virility"; finally, 6) I thought you wanted equality!

And really, come on, egg sacs, why do you have to make such a big deal out of everything? I'm just asking.



(I will now stand by to be labeled "pussy whipped.")

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2012,16:39   

Do you know what happened to me today? An article came out on MSNBC about Amelia Earhart's freckle cream bottle possibly being found on an island. Some wag made a joke about women flying while putting on their makeup while flying, and causing a crash. All right, haha, so I made a joke about co-pilot Noonan being drunk (as he was an alcoholic) and not being able to ask for directions. Okay, lame, but no more so than the first.

OH BOY did I get it from two guys! "Lighten up!" "Don't be so damned sensitive! If you would learn to laugh at yourself people would not avoid you so much!" Moi? I was making a light-hearted joke, you silly boys. I told them that they should not worry their little heads about it, as they were too emotional, and BTW I was too busy staring at their moobs, anyway! :D

ElevatorGate: In sum, I agree with OgreMkV, with moderation by clamboy, but the real proof of the pudding is, turn about is fair play. If you can do it, I can do it. If I can take it, you can take it. If not (and you are a Republican, like one of my responders), then you should quit teasing me and forcing me to stalk you around the MSNBC site, making wisecracks at what turns out to be your not-very-witty-nor-humorous comments. Do you see the stuff that you make me do? Why do you make me crazy? If I can't make you laugh, no one else will! :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2012,19:32   

Quote (clamboy @ May 31 2012,15:41)
(I will now stand by to be labeled "pussy whipped.")



Exeter Cathedral. The Martyrs' Pulpit (Bishop Pattison Memorial Pulpit) by Cornell University Library.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2012,20:11   

some serious carving in that one.  

and i'm not pussy whipped, i'm simply afraid of her.  :)

  
Henry J



Posts: 4013
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2012,21:55   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 31 2012,10:11)
Yes, because anything is permissable with athiesm.


Now that's a strawman argument if I ever saw one!!111!!!eleven!!!  :p

  
clamboy



Posts: 155
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 01 2012,01:22   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 31 2012,19:32)
Quote (clamboy @ May 31 2012,15:41)
(I will now stand by to be labeled "pussy whipped.")



Exeter Cathedral. The Martyrs' Pulpit (Bishop Pattison Memorial Pulpit) by Cornell University Library.

"[S]ome of you men (you should know which ones) are clearly pussy-whipped." - Thewholetruth, 5/26/12, p. 592 of The Roomba Thwall.

Isn't there a martyrs' memorial at Oxford? Must investigate...

  
The whole truth



Posts: 973
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 01 2012,03:07   

Quote (clamboy @ May 31 2012,23:22)
   
Quote (Lou FCD @ May 31 2012,19:32)
   
Quote (clamboy @ May 31 2012,15:41)
(I will now stand by to be labeled "pussy whipped.")




"[S]ome of you men (you should know which ones) are clearly pussy-whipped." - Thewholetruth, 5/26/12, p. 592 of The Roomba Thwall.

Isn't there a martyrs' memorial at Oxford? Must investigate...

And here I thought that misquoting people is considered a bad and dishonest thing on this site.  If you (clamboy) knew how to read you'd see that I was passing along what others said, so the words you put in quote marks are not directly attributable to me.

By the way, you are not only pussy whipped (now you can honestly quote me) but you're as brain dead as joe g when it comes to reading comprehension, and, in a manner that is reminiscent of the way IDiots behave you distorted, grossly exaggerated, and dishonestly misrepresented what I've said.

You, and some others here, really don't have a clue.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 01 2012,06:43   

Quote (The whole truth @ June 01 2012,09:07)
By the way, you are not only pussy whipped (now you can honestly quote me) but you're as brain dead as joe g when it comes to reading comprehension, and, in a manner that is reminiscent of the way IDiots behave you distorted, grossly exaggerated, and dishonestly misrepresented what I've said.

Coming from you that is pretty rich. Or do you claim that this is a fair summary of anything that has been said here (or anywhere, for that matter)?
   
Quote
And SO fucking what IF he did say what she says he said?

'Oh the poor little dear sobbing buckets of tears! We MUST stand up for her and protect her and all the other women on Earth from evil, rotten, crude, drooling, sex crazed, pushy men who are POTENTIAL rapists! After all, ALL men are sex crazed knuckle dragging monsters and POTENTIAL rapists who are deliberately looking for a situation where they can TRAP a woman in an elevator and then force themselves on her! That poor, poor dear, what horror she must have gone through in that elevator! How DARE that despicable manbeast offer coffee and a chat! How dare he speak to her! Castrate him! Burn him at the stake! Cut off his head and his dick and put them on a tall spike in the town square as a warning to all other POTENTIAL rapists! All men should be leashed and ball-gagged and never allowed to talk to women! Women are just too frail and innocent to take care of themselves and they must be shielded from men who have the unmitigated gall to speak to them!'


How far we've come.
 
Quote
And in case anyone gives a shit, I did show this thread to my daughter and to a female friend (who is happily married to another guy), and they both strongly agree with what I've said. In fact, they also both said that some of you women (you should know which ones) need to get off your princess-wannabe thrones and come down to Earth and actually practice the 'equality' you say you want so much. They also said that some of you men (you should know which ones) are clearly pussy-whipped.

Debate on the ‘Conciliation’ Bill, to enfranchise about 1 million Women voters, 28 March 1912
Quote
[There had been a postcard census of women’s opinions1]   Of the replies which have been received there are against the Suffrage 42, 793, in favour of it there are 22,176, neutral 9,404.   That is the opinion of women.   This is a man-made Bill which they are forcing upon the vast majority of women against their wishes…

 
Quote
The way in which certain types of women, easily recognised, have acted in the last year or two, especially in the last few weeks, lends a great deal of colour to the argument that the mental equilibrium of the female sex is not as stable as the mental equilibrium of the male sex.   The argument has very strong scientific backing…   It seems to me that this House should remember that if the vote is given to women those who will take the greatest part in politics will not be the quiet, retiring, constitutional women… but those very militant women who have brought so much disgrace and discredit upon their sex.   It would introduce a disastrous element into our public life…

 
Quote
Militantism and hysteria are inherent and inseparable from the Suffrage movement.   They grow and progress as the Suffragist movement grows and progresses and, if this is so, then these militant outrages are a strong and serious argument against Woman Suffrage itself.


--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 01 2012,07:46   

As much as I don't like a lot of what he says, Scott Adams has said some wise things on occasion.

The one that I like the most is (paraphrased):

For any major decision or discussion, gather the 100 smartest people in the world and have them discuss it and compare their decision to that of the group in question (government mainly, but I don't see why any group would not fall under this comparison).

If the 100 smartest people in the world all agree on a subject, then democracy appears to actively suppress intelligence in decision making.

If the 100 smartest people in the world don't agree on a subject, then intelligence in group decision making is simply impossible.

In short, different people have different ideas based on their culture, experiences, and research (ha!) on the subject.**  The 'majority' rule tends to be ruled by those people who talk the loudest and have the most power... no one else really cares.

Look at the state of Christianity right now.  The majority of Christians are normal people who use birth control, go to a club a couple of times a year, go to church on Sundays, and live their own quiet lives the rest of the time.

However, the impression of Christianity as a bunch of bughouse nuts people is because of the really loud people who have a massive stake in the issue are the only ones talking.

Likewise here, those that have a bug up their ass about it (and have a blog that gets tens of thousands of hits a day) are creating a massive conflagration.  While everyone else is quietly going about their business wondering "WTF?".

There are two sides to every story... and we will never hear another side to this story.  I'd give it a pretty high probability that the guy who 'started' this whole mess in the elevator has no idea what's going on.  He was just hanging out with this cute girl and wanted to see if she was interested in taking things further.  (If he has said anything, I haven't heard about it.)

Likewise all these other 'evil men', they are living their lives with no idea what a ruckus they've caused.  Maybe they know and feel some small amount of shame.  In all probability they are going, "WTF?"  






__

** Of course, I'm talking about subjects that cannot be determined to be factual (unlike science or math).

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2012,03:53   

Quote
 
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ June 01 2012,12:16)
   
Quote (Kattarina98 @ June 01 2012,18:52)
   
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ June 01 2012,03:35)
... (sorry for the delay, was in bed all day. Fuck nausea!)

Oh no, are you ill? Or hung over?

Ménière's disease is a wonderful thing. For those who don't have it.

I had to look it up; it sounds awful. I hope you can at least manage the symptoms.

And sorry to derail Quack's thread.


(from Quack's birthday thread, so as not to derail).

The only way so far I've found to cope with the symptoms is taking some antiemetics and stay laying down in a dark room, with as few visual and auditory stimuli as possible.

The annoying part for me (ie, with regard to my professional life) is the temporary lateral deafness. A few weeks ago, I was a guest singer at a gig in Nice, and was totally deaf in my left ear. As my stage monitor was to my left, I had almost no feedback and hilarious out-of-key singing ensued.

But really, pucking about 15 times a day is not all it's cracked up to be. Taking a shot of vodka around noon, however, kind of reduces the dizziness and vertigo. I'd like to get the surgery to resolve the problem, but there's a 50/50 chance that I'll lose my hearing in one or both ears, so I'm not taking that risk yet (bread and butter, mixing new album's demo, yadayada...)

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2012,06:48   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ June 02 2012,03:53)
Quote
 
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ June 01 2012,12:16)
   
Quote (Kattarina98 @ June 01 2012,18:52)
     
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ June 01 2012,03:35)
... (sorry for the delay, was in bed all day. Fuck nausea!)

Oh no, are you ill? Or hung over?

Ménière's disease is a wonderful thing. For those who don't have it.

I had to look it up; it sounds awful. I hope you can at least manage the symptoms.

And sorry to derail Quack's thread.


(from Quack's birthday thread, so as not to derail).

The only way so far I've found to cope with the symptoms is taking some antiemetics and stay laying down in a dark room, with as few visual and auditory stimuli as possible.

The annoying part for me (ie, with regard to my professional life) is the temporary lateral deafness. A few weeks ago, I was a guest singer at a gig in Nice, and was totally deaf in my left ear. As my stage monitor was to my left, I had almost no feedback and hilarious out-of-key singing ensued.

But really, pucking about 15 times a day is not all it's cracked up to be. Taking a shot of vodka around noon, however, kind of reduces the dizziness and vertigo. I'd like to get the surgery to resolve the problem, but there's a 50/50 chance that I'll lose my hearing in one or both ears, so I'm not taking that risk yet (bread and butter, mixing new album's demo, yadayada...)

I may have a very mild form of this...or vertigo.  But the ringing in the ear that gets worse occasionally makes me think it might be Meniere's.

Bonine works pretty well for me.  At least it knocks me out until the symptoms go away.

Caffeine appears to make it worse.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2012,07:29   

Ogre: go get checked by an ORL.

The first diagnosis I had was Irritable Bowel Syndrom, because at the time the first symptoms appeared, I also was constipated and had stomack cramps (TMI, sorry). The second was Abdominal Migraine. These are prone to false-positives. Inner ear calcification also causes these kind of symptoms (ear blockage and temporary deafness included).

It took the ORL almost 8 months to figure it out, and I'm still not 100% confident it's the correct diagnosis.

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
The whole truth



Posts: 973
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2012,05:33   

Quote (JLT @ June 01 2012,04:43)
 
Quote (The whole truth @ June 01 2012,09:07)
By the way, you are not only pussy whipped (now you can honestly quote me) but you're as brain dead as joe g when it comes to reading comprehension, and, in a manner that is reminiscent of the way IDiots behave you distorted, grossly exaggerated, and dishonestly misrepresented what I've said.

Coming from you that is pretty rich. Or do you claim that this is a fair summary of anything that has been said here (or anywhere, for that matter)?
       
Quote
And SO fucking what IF he did say what she says he said?

'Oh the poor little dear sobbing buckets of tears! We MUST stand up for her and protect her and all the other women on Earth from evil, rotten, crude, drooling, sex crazed, pushy men who are POTENTIAL rapists! After all, ALL men are sex crazed knuckle dragging monsters and POTENTIAL rapists who are deliberately looking for a situation where they can TRAP a woman in an elevator and then force themselves on her! That poor, poor dear, what horror she must have gone through in that elevator! How DARE that despicable manbeast offer coffee and a chat! How dare he speak to her! Castrate him! Burn him at the stake! Cut off his head and his dick and put them on a tall spike in the town square as a warning to all other POTENTIAL rapists! All men should be leashed and ball-gagged and never allowed to talk to women! Women are just too frail and innocent to take care of themselves and they must be shielded from men who have the unmitigated gall to speak to them!'


How far we've come.
   
Quote
And in case anyone gives a shit, I did show this thread to my daughter and to a female friend (who is happily married to another guy), and they both strongly agree with what I've said. In fact, they also both said that some of you women (you should know which ones) need to get off your princess-wannabe thrones and come down to Earth and actually practice the 'equality' you say you want so much. They also said that some of you men (you should know which ones) are clearly pussy-whipped.

Debate on the ‘Conciliation’ Bill, to enfranchise about 1 million Women voters, 28 March 1912
   
Quote
[There had been a postcard census of women’s opinions1]   Of the replies which have been received there are against the Suffrage 42, 793, in favour of it there are 22,176, neutral 9,404.   That is the opinion of women.   This is a man-made Bill which they are forcing upon the vast majority of women against their wishes…

     
Quote
The way in which certain types of women, easily recognised, have acted in the last year or two, especially in the last few weeks, lends a great deal of colour to the argument that the mental equilibrium of the female sex is not as stable as the mental equilibrium of the male sex.   The argument has very strong scientific backing…   It seems to me that this House should remember that if the vote is given to women those who will take the greatest part in politics will not be the quiet, retiring, constitutional women… but those very militant women who have brought so much disgrace and discredit upon their sex.   It would introduce a disastrous element into our public life…

     
Quote
Militantism and hysteria are inherent and inseparable from the Suffrage movement.   They grow and progress as the Suffragist movement grows and progresses and, if this is so, then these militant outrages are a strong and serious argument against Woman Suffrage itself.

So, a woman ALLEGES that a guy in an elevator asked her if she'd like to come to his room for coffee. PZ Meyers and a lot of other people made a GIGANTIC stink about it, and are still making a stink, for how long now??

I don't think that what I said is an exaggeration, a distortion, or dishonest at all. If anything it's an understatement of the way that many people think and have acted (and are still acting).

Maybe what amazes me the most is that you and some other women don't understand how making such a GIGANTIC stink (or any stink at all, and especially very publicly on the internet) about a NON-incident (in every sense of the word) reinforces the perception that women are helpless, fragile, inferior weaklings who are unable to take care of themselves and need to be protected from men even talking to them.

Yeah, you've come a long way baby. Not.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
George



Posts: 312
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2012,12:32   

Quote (The whole truth @ June 03 2012,05:33)
So, a woman ALLEGES that a guy in an elevator asked her if she'd like to come to his room for coffee. PZ Meyers and a lot of other people made a GIGANTIC stink about it, and are still making a stink, for how long now??

I don't think that what I said is an exaggeration, a distortion, or dishonest at all. If anything it's an understatement of the way that many people think and have acted (and are still acting).

Maybe what amazes me the most is that you and some other women don't understand how making such a GIGANTIC stink (or any stink at all, and especially very publicly on the internet) about a NON-incident (in every sense of the word) reinforces the perception that women are helpless, fragile, inferior weaklings who are unable to take care of themselves and need to be protected from men even talking to them.

Yeah, you've come a long way baby. Not.

I'd just like to say a couple of words on this subject on behalf of all the lurkers and quasi-lurkers here.

Grow up.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 973
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2012,18:45   

Quote (George @ June 03 2012,10:32)
Quote (The whole truth @ June 03 2012,05:33)
So, a woman ALLEGES that a guy in an elevator asked her if she'd like to come to his room for coffee. PZ Meyers and a lot of other people made a GIGANTIC stink about it, and are still making a stink, for how long now??

I don't think that what I said is an exaggeration, a distortion, or dishonest at all. If anything it's an understatement of the way that many people think and have acted (and are still acting).

Maybe what amazes me the most is that you and some other women don't understand how making such a GIGANTIC stink (or any stink at all, and especially very publicly on the internet) about a NON-incident (in every sense of the word) reinforces the perception that women are helpless, fragile, inferior weaklings who are unable to take care of themselves and need to be protected from men even talking to them.

Yeah, you've come a long way baby. Not.

I'd just like to say a couple of words on this subject on behalf of all the lurkers and quasi-lurkers here.

Grow up.

The whiny children (of either gender) who have and still are making a stink about something that doesn't even have any evidence of it ever actually occurring, and that even if it did happen was absolutely NOTHING to get upset about, are the ones who need to grow up.

Poor little dears sobbing buckets of tears. Waaaah.


And who authorized you to speak for the "lurkers and quasi-lurkers"?

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,02:41   

TWT: I would grant some of the more rabid commenters at FTB a bit of slack. Some of them seem emotionally damaged in some way or other. The average age demographic there is between 20 and 30, and I suppose most of them are college students.

They do act like assholes to newcomers and regulars who don't aree with them. They might feel enpowered by the benevolant banhammer PZ holds on everyone's head (at Pharyngula, that is). Still, their arguments should be threated the way we threat any other arguments: with skepticism, reason, and level-headedness. Starting a flame war here is pointless, unfruitful, and unwanted. There are venues where such topics can be delt with.

Yeah, I know, I'm the one who started this shitstorm here, and I should have refrained from doing so. Sorry about that to everyone irritated with this issue...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
The whole truth



Posts: 973
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,05:44   

SD, as you said you brought it up here recently and I don't see anything wrong with that unless I or someone else is prevented from speaking about it. I accept that you're now trying to sooth the hostilities and promote peace, and that you didn't intend to stir up a hornet nest. You brought it up but you're not responsible for what other people say about it.

There are some things that I wonder if anyone else has considered:

WHY would PZ Meyers or anyone else take such a NON-incident and blow it so far out of proportion? Even IF it did occur, what's his agenda in portraying himself like a knight in shining armor who is slaying dragons to keep the women of the world (or just the ones who speak at atheist/skeptic conferences) safe from harm? Did PZ and the others on the 'most-men-are-misogynistic-monsters-and-potential-rapists' bandwagon speak out so strongly (and for so long) against sexism (or alleged sexism), that allegedly happens at atheist/skeptic conferences and/or elsewhere, BEFORE this alleged incident occurred?

What better way to make yourself look like a swashbuckling hero than to publicly come to the aid of a damsel in distress, even though there's no evidence that any damsel was ever actually in distress (or at least not legitimate distress)? Call me suspicious but maybe it's PZ who's trying to get laid. Is Rebecca Watson young-ish and attractive? Hmm, I wonder if he has ever asked her if she'd like a coffee or a drink, and/or has ever been in an elevator with her.

And what is RW's agenda in making a public stink about something SO trivial, even IF it did actually happen? Is she the one who pushes the Skepchick and Skepdude calenders while at the same time bitching about "sexism" and "sexualization"?

What if a similar alleged incident had occurred at a theists conference, or a plumbers conference, or a lesbians conference, or a conference of gay men? Would the same people have said the same things about it? Think about it.

One more thing, who the hell is Rebecca Watson and what has she ever done that makes her or anyone else think that she's so damn important that such a NON-incident (that doesn't even have any evidence of ever actually happening) is worthy of being so publicly magnified into a gigantic tempest and crusade?

I can't help but think of all the legitimately serious problems that people (men, women, and children) have that many people don't give a shit about. Being uncouthly asked if she'd like to go to a room for coffee (IF it did happen) pales in comparison to a lot of actual horrible things that are going on on this planet, and there are bigger fish to fry than some allegedly ill-mannered guy in an elevator or protecting Rebecca Watson's fragile (or demanding?) sensibilities.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 1956
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,08:19   

Quote (The whole truth @ June 04 2012,05:44)
SD, as you said you brought it up here recently and I don't see anything wrong with that unless I or someone else is prevented from speaking about it. I accept that you're now trying to sooth the hostilities and promote peace, and that you didn't intend to stir up a hornet nest. You brought it up but you're not responsible for what other people say about it.

There are some things that I wonder if anyone else has considered:

WHY would PZ Meyers or anyone else take such a NON-incident and blow it so far out of proportion? Even IF it did occur, what's his agenda in portraying himself like a knight in shining armor who is slaying dragons to keep the women of the world (or just the ones who speak at atheist/skeptic conferences) safe from harm? Did PZ and the others on the 'most-men-are-misogynistic-monsters-and-potential-rapists' bandwagon speak out so strongly (and for so long) against sexism (or alleged sexism), that allegedly happens at atheist/skeptic conferences and/or elsewhere, BEFORE this alleged incident occurred?

In fairness to PZed, the whole thing blew up before he got involved.It looks like one of those spats that could have been avoided if one side or the other took a deep breath and then decided not to escalate. Instead it got its own momentum. PZed was just reflecting what was going on, but once he steps into a debate like this you know what's going to happen

I don't see any reason to doubt that Rebecca Watson felt uncomfortable over Elevator Guy's behaviour, and I think it raises interesting and difficult questions about what sort of behaviour should be acceptable. But dealing with them is less fun than having a big shouting match...

BTW, has Elevator Man been identified?

--------------
ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3268
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,08:55   

As an aside to my previous comments.  According to various reports of surveys, there have been (what seems to me) to be a large number of harassment issues at one of these conferences.  

That's unfortunate and it's also very wrong.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,08:58   

Quote (Bob O'H @ June 04 2012,08:19)
Quote (The whole truth @ June 04 2012,05:44)
SD, as you said you brought it up here recently and I don't see anything wrong with that unless I or someone else is prevented from speaking about it. I accept that you're now trying to sooth the hostilities and promote peace, and that you didn't intend to stir up a hornet nest. You brought it up but you're not responsible for what other people say about it.

There are some things that I wonder if anyone else has considered:

WHY would PZ Meyers or anyone else take such a NON-incident and blow it so far out of proportion? Even IF it did occur, what's his agenda in portraying himself like a knight in shining armor who is slaying dragons to keep the women of the world (or just the ones who speak at atheist/skeptic conferences) safe from harm? Did PZ and the others on the 'most-men-are-misogynistic-monsters-and-potential-rapists' bandwagon speak out so strongly (and for so long) against sexism (or alleged sexism), that allegedly happens at atheist/skeptic conferences and/or elsewhere, BEFORE this alleged incident occurred?

In fairness to PZed, the whole thing blew up before he got involved.It looks like one of those spats that could have been avoided if one side or the other took a deep breath and then decided not to escalate. Instead it got its own momentum. PZed was just reflecting what was going on, but once he steps into a debate like this you know what's going to happen

I don't see any reason to doubt that Rebecca Watson felt uncomfortable over Elevator Guy's behaviour, and I think it raises interesting and difficult questions about what sort of behaviour should be acceptable. But dealing with them is less fun than having a big shouting match...

BTW, has Elevator Man been identified?

A conference full of activists were keen to take exception to something????!!!!1111

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
sledgehammer



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,10:39   

It would be highly cynical of me to point out that all the parties involved (RW, PZ, AS, etc) have blogs that pay based on traffic, so I won't.

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Cubist



Posts: 346
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,12:11   

Quote (The whole truth @ June 04 2012,05:44)
WHY would PZ Meyers or anyone else take such a NON-incident and blow it so far out of proportion?

Answer: It's not the "non-incident". Rather, it's the massive and continuing shitstorm that descended upon RW after she made the simple, calm, and (to any reasonably sane & non-sexist person) reasonable assertion "Guys, don't do that" about an incident in which she had good reason to feel creeped out.
Quote
Even IF it did occur...

Yes, yes, "bitches lie."
Quote
And what is RW's agenda in making a public stink about something SO trivial, even IF it did actually happen?

Again: It's not the original "non-incident", it's the shitstorm that followed. To begin with, all RW said was "Guys, don't do that"; if you think that is "raising a public stink", there's something wrong with your standards re: what constitutes a "public stink".
Quote
... there are bigger fish to fry than some allegedly ill-mannered guy in an elevator or protecting Rebecca Watson's fragile (or demanding?) sensibilities.

Yes, there are "bigger fish to fry". Some people think that a massive and continuing outpouring of abusive remarks, up to and including rape threats and beyond, constitutes just such a "bigger fish"; other people don't seem to think said outpouring is even worth noticing. Go figure.

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,13:37   

Trololo guy dies.

--------------
"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,13:58   

Quote (Cubist @ June 04 2012,12:11)
Quote (The whole truth @ June 04 2012,05:44)
WHY would PZ Meyers or anyone else take such a NON-incident and blow it so far out of proportion?

Answer: It's not the "non-incident". Rather, it's the massive and continuing shitstorm that descended upon RW after she made the simple, calm, and (to any reasonably sane & non-sexist person) reasonable assertion "Guys, don't do that" about an incident in which she had good reason to feel creeped out.


Well, whether she meant it that way or not, apparently people felt that she was demanding that people obey her, which ruffled feathers of men and women.  While there were some assholes originally (there always will be, so why anybody was surprised I have no idea), even the people who were saying that she didn't speak for them (the women responding to her) were tarred and feathered with the MRA/mysoginist/gender-traitor/etc labels, told to shove porcupines up tender places, edited, censored, banned, and more.  Debate was impossible because RW could do no wrong and spoke for everyone.
Quote
 
Quote
Even IF it did occur...

Yes, yes, "bitches lie."


No, merely that the tale kept getting bigger and bigger, and more intricate, just like all other tales we see in history.  They just grow into things a bit hard to swallow.  The original story sounds entirely plausible, but when all the rest were added in - Rebecca's problem that seemed to develop and disappear fast - the one where she can't remember/ID faces so she knew this guy was at the talk and bar how? - it sounds suspiciously like a political move.  Altering the tale to counter arguments or make it worse than it was.  

Quote
 
Quote
And what is RW's agenda in making a public stink about something SO trivial, even IF it did actually happen?

Again: It's not the original "non-incident", it's the shitstorm that followed. To begin with, all RW said was "Guys, don't do that"; if you think that is "raising a public stink", there's something wrong with your standards re: what constitutes a "public stink".


This I have to agree with...to a point.  The original point was trivial and not a stink, but when it blew up...virtually everything was a public stink over the further arguments, and the original points (both hers and her lack of professionalism when speaking) went to the curb.  

Quote

 
Quote
... there are bigger fish to fry than some allegedly ill-mannered guy in an elevator or protecting Rebecca Watson's fragile (or demanding?) sensibilities.

Yes, there are "bigger fish to fry". Some people think that a massive and continuing outpouring of abusive remarks, up to and including rape threats and beyond, constitutes just such a "bigger fish"; other people don't seem to think said outpouring is even worth noticing. Go figure.

Quote (cubist  <!--QuoteBegin--The whole truth @ June 04 2012+05:44)
WHY would PZ Meyers or anyone else take such a NON-incident and blow it so far out of proportion?

Answer: It's [i--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cubist  
Quote (The whole truth @ June 04 2012 @ 05:44)
WHY would PZ Meyers or anyone else take such a NON-incident and blow it so far out of proportion?

Answer: It's [i)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->not[/i] the "non-incident". Rather, it's the massive and continuing shitstorm that descended upon RW after she made the simple, calm, and (to any reasonably sane & non-sexist person) reasonable assertion "Guys, don't do that" about an incident in which she had good reason to feel creeped out.[/quote]

Well, whether she meant it that way or not, apparently people felt that she was demanding that people obey her, which ruffled feathers of men and women.  While there were some assholes originally (there always will be, so why anybody was surprised I have no idea), even the people who were saying that she didn't speak for them (the women responding to her) were tarred and feathered with the MRA/mysoginist/gender-traitor/etc labels, told to shove porcupines up tender places, edited, censored, banned, and more.  Debate was impossible because RW could do no wrong and spoke for everyone.
Quote
 
Quote
Even IF it did occur...

Yes, yes, "bitches lie."


No, merely that the tale kept getting bigger and bigger, and more intricate, just like all other tales we see in history.  They just grow into things a bit hard to swallow.  The original story sounds entirely plausible, but when all the rest were added in - Rebecca's problem that seemed to develop and disappear fast - the one where she can't remember/ID faces so she knew this guy was at the talk and bar how? - it sounds suspiciously like a political move.  Altering the tale to counter arguments or make it worse than it was.  

Quote
 
Quote
And what is RW's agenda in making a public stink about something SO trivial, even IF it did actually happen?

Again: It's not the original "non-incident", it's the shitstorm that followed. To begin with, all RW said was "Guys, don't do that"; if you think that is "raising a public stink", there's something wrong with your standards re: what constitutes a "public stink".


This I have to agree with...to a point.  The original point was trivial and not a stink, but when it blew up...virtually everything was a public stink over the further arguments, and the original points (both hers and her lack of professionalism when speaking) went to the curb.  

Quote

 
Quote
... there are bigger fish to fry than some allegedly ill-mannered guy in an elevator or protecting Rebecca Watson's fragile (or demanding?) sensibilities.

Yes, there are "bigger fish to fry". Some people think that a massive and continuing outpouring of abusive remarks, up to and including rape threats and beyond, constitutes just such a "bigger fish"; other people don't seem to think said outpouring is even worth noticing. Go figure.


If internet trolls are considered the standard for people in society, then I think we have far bigger fish than people think.  If people saying mean things on the internet is the worst problem you have, then you're lucky.  I think that's the point TWT is trying to make (I may be wrong, correct me if I am).  There is a problem with sexism (and all the other -isms) in society, but I still am skeptical about how big it is and what might be the best way to correct that (and that affects both sides - some people just need to grow thicker skins if they want to live in the real world).

I do wonder if anyone knows of any study that can show a relationship between online interactions and real world?  Do the trolls on YouTube act that way in real life, or only do it from the safety of their computer?  Do they say those things because they mean it or because they want to cause a flamewar?  Just curious.

ETA: I tried to quote parts, but really blew it and am not sure why, so my apologies for a messed up post.

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,14:49   

Quote (The whole truth @ June 04 2012,05:44)
SD, as you said you brought it up here recently and I don't see anything wrong with that unless I or someone else is prevented from speaking about it. I accept that you're now trying to sooth the hostilities and promote peace, and that you didn't intend to stir up a hornet nest. You brought it up but you're not responsible for what other people say about it.

There are some things that I wonder if anyone else has considered:

WHY would PZ Meyers or anyone else take such a NON-incident and blow it so far out of proportion? Even IF it did occur, what's his agenda in portraying himself like a knight in shining armor who is slaying dragons to keep the women of the world (or just the ones who speak at atheist/skeptic conferences) safe from harm? Did PZ and the others on the 'most-men-are-misogynistic-monsters-and-potential-rapists' bandwagon speak out so strongly (and for so long) against sexism (or alleged sexism), that allegedly happens at atheist/skeptic conferences and/or elsewhere, BEFORE this alleged incident occurred?

What better way to make yourself look like a swashbuckling hero than to publicly come to the aid of a damsel in distress, even though there's no evidence that any damsel was ever actually in distress (or at least not legitimate distress)? Call me suspicious but maybe it's PZ who's trying to get laid. Is Rebecca Watson young-ish and attractive? Hmm, I wonder if he has ever asked her if she'd like a coffee or a drink, and/or has ever been in an elevator with her.

And what is RW's agenda in making a public stink about something SO trivial, even IF it did actually happen? Is she the one who pushes the Skepchick and Skepdude calenders while at the same time bitching about "sexism" and "sexualization"?

What if a similar alleged incident had occurred at a theists conference, or a plumbers conference, or a lesbians conference, or a conference of gay men? Would the same people have said the same things about it? Think about it.

One more thing, who the hell is Rebecca Watson and what has she ever done that makes her or anyone else think that she's so damn important that such a NON-incident (that doesn't even have any evidence of ever actually happening) is worthy of being so publicly magnified into a gigantic tempest and crusade?

I can't help but think of all the legitimately serious problems that people (men, women, and children) have that many people don't give a shit about. Being uncouthly asked if she'd like to go to a room for coffee (IF it did happen) pales in comparison to a lot of actual horrible things that are going on on this planet, and there are bigger fish to fry than some allegedly ill-mannered guy in an elevator or protecting Rebecca Watson's fragile (or demanding?) sensibilities.

With PZ, I think it's a mixture of wanting to protect a friend coupled with indoctrination in the same radfem theory that Watson claims to espouse.  I don't think he did it to make himself look like a hero (although he might feel like he is one, that is secondary), and I really, really doubt he's trying to get laid.  The White Knight Syndrome is probably enough to explain his behavior, even is such behavior is a bit patronizing.

There's a picture of Watson here, and you can find some all over the place.  She is a bit young (20's maybe?), some apparently find her attractive (she was married for a year or so from what I understand, but I only know that from the Skeptics Guide), but I'd at least like to think that even PZ isn't that bad that he'd be thinking with his plums.

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,15:49   

Seriously, this whole shitfest could have been handled and resolved months ago if people had wished to listen to each others. And that means no bullshit like the Pharyngumeme "listen to the women!!!111one!!", especially when some women didn't agree with what the "women" said.

Accusations of MRA and misogyny are a good addition to the turdstorm. Take again a look at PZ's "Dungeon" and see the pattern.

Something is fucked up.

I shouldn't really care, because my chances of attending any of these events rank bellow my chances to win the lottery. As a friend told me by mail, France is quite out of the charity sphere when it comes to secularism and atheism. I am glad enough to help anyway I can in fighting bad education. But it also makes me sad to see these kinds of coffee cup storms in a community I love. 7

Anyway, as a happy Slimepit Denizen, I'll go my way with this particular issue. So expect me only on the Bathroom Wall, Birthday threads, and Joe G whenever needed*.













*I tell a lie, I'll be around whatever happens. Whatdoyoumean "no one cares"?!? Oh, well then...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,17:08   

Quote (Bob O'H @ June 04 2012,08:19)
...
BTW, has Elevator Man been identified?

Alright alright. Its a fair cop. It was me. I was very drunk. I was like "alriiiiiiiiight daaahlin" and when she took umbrage at my clumsy advances I told her it took 7 Stellas to drink her pretty. I got off of a couple of floor before her, but not before unleashing a silent yet deadly 'Jilted lover' into the soon to be death-trap of an elevator.

I'm amazed the last bit wasn't more widely reported. I ended up making out with who I thought was David Mabus but I'm thinking now he may have been institutionalized at the time, so thank you mystery stranger whoever you are if you're reading this!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2012,17:59   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 04 2012,17:08)
 
Quote (Bob O'H @ June 04 2012,08:19)
...
BTW, has Elevator Man been identified?

Alright alright. Its a fair cop. It was me. I was very drunk. I was like "alriiiiiiiiight daaahlin" and when she took umbrage at my clumsy advances I told her it took 7 Stellas to drink her pretty. I got off of a couple of floor before her, but not before unleashing a silent yet deadly 'Jilted lover' into the soon to be death-trap of an elevator.

I'm amazed the last bit wasn't more widely reported. I ended up making out with who I thought was David Mabus but I'm thinking now he may have been institutionalized at the time, so thank you mystery stranger whoever you are if you're reading this!

And why were you talking to her, when I was sitting in my hotel room, with the champagne already uncorked, the scuba gear laid out, and a copy of Lolita carefully and strategically propped open to the word, "Twinkle!"   :angry:

;)   :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
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