Joined: Oct. 2009
|Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,20:15)|
|While it's true that deities may be a part of our culture, it is obvious (if one actually reads the Bible) that none of our morality is actually based on the Bible.|
For someone who boasts of reading the Bible so many times (weren’t you the one who said they’d read the bible 4 times as well as in a language other than English?
If not, my apologies...one of you stated that recently), you seem amiss here. There are endless passages in the Bible that people refer to in regard to morality ALL the TIME.
Yes, and those passages, almost universally decry the keeping of slaves, the rape of unmarried women, treating enemy soldiers with respect...
Oh wait, that's Tom Clancy, not the Bible. The Bible encourages that stuff. God encourages that stuff. Would you like the quotes from the Bible? Because I can bet that I can find more quotes supporting things you and I both consider immoral than you can find supporting things that we both think or moral.
While it's true that deities may be a part of our culture, it is obvious (if one actually reads the Bible) that none of our morality is actually based on the Bible.
Each Sunday alone, Pastors preach morality from the pulpit based upon scripture.
And every US presidential condidate since Thomas Jefferson has promised change. It's easy to say things that aren't real.
Your statement is patently absurd. Granted, it may possibly be that you never hear any of this as I’m beginning to wonder if you live in a reclusive atheist commune.
Nope, simple facts here. I know that you reside in a reclusive Christian commune, where you do not question your Pastor, your father, and God (in that order).
It's also pretty obvious that you have never read the Bible, just listened to what that pastor says every morning. Isn't it interesting how pastors (I've had over twelve in my church-going years) never mention all the patent impossibilities in the Bible and all the contradictions (list of 100 ready for you, whenever you want them).
But your cute (lame, weak) ad hominim doesn't change any of the actual facts.
I'll repeat. Current US culture is not based on Biblical morality. If it is, then how much do you want for your daughter?
Curiously, there are several cultures in the world that are based on the morality of their holy book and they are universally decried by Christians. Interesting...
Now, if you’re suggesting that because “Christianity” was organized long after humans “evolved“, and you’re *assuming* that morality was already in place
Quote where I said that.
This is called a 'strawman' argument. In this, you are attacking something that no one has said or defended. Everything past this is a waste od electrons.
What I maintain is that the morals of the culture are based on evolution of that culture over time. Things change. 2000 years ago, keeping slaves was fine. 200 years ago, keeping slaves was fine. 20 years ago... not so much.
The morals of our society are based on things that we find offensive. If you go to another (mostly Christian) nation, you will find things in that culture that you would think are morally repugnant. For example, selling your excess daughters into prostitution or the imprisonment and killing of homosexuals. Of course, you claim to find these things immoral, yet the exact same belief system that you subscribe to is used to justify both of the acts I just described.
In other words, the Bible does not give us morality. It is used as after-the-fact justification for the morals already present in the society.
before that time due to what was passed down through evolutionary means, then that is something you cannot prove any more than I can in regard to how our sense of morality was established. From written documents that we DO have, the most logical explanation is that morality was ultimately established by God.
Prove it. Prove God exists... then answer the question: If God commanded that eating babies is both moral and required, then why wouldn't you eat them?
No other text from antiquity provides as much moral content as the Bible.
Bullshit. Ever read the Illiad? The Oddesy? The moral lessons in the Greek myths? How about the viking myths? No? I'm not surprised.
Of course, what you don't understand, is that the Bible is mostly cobbled together from the usefull bits of legends much older than it is.
Hell, the Code of Hammurabi says the same thing as the Bible. Remember "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"? Code of Hammurabi, 1700 years before the Bible.
Of course, if you want an actual moral code, what about the Hippocratic Oath? 500 years before Christ and originally sworn to Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia and Panacea.
So much for all of that.
According to those texts, our sense of morality was intact from the beginning. Trial, error, sin and the results of those helped established that. Oral tradition as well as documentation of events were passed down throughout the generations, and at one point the Jews put together what was to become the OT which combined these historical accounts. Reject any part or the totality of scripture, but you have nothing that *proves* morality was originally established by other means entirely. You have *assumption* and *speculation* based on questionable “science“.
Nonsense, as shown above.
|Jesus condoned slavery. The Southern Baptists had slavery written into their church charter until 1996. |
We’ve been over this several time in the past, so I’ll provide a link to keep this post from getting to entirely to lengthy. PLEASE READ IT.
No. There are too many interesting things to read than apologetics. Summarize it for me, then we'll see. Bullet the salient points with references to the Bible. Go ahead... I'll wait.
|God, according to your Bible (which, BTW, is Jesus too according to your Bible) destroyed every living on the entire planet (every living thing which he created by the way), because a small subset of his creations didn't devote every waking moment to his worship.|
Again, for someone who has read the bible so thoroughly, you’ve missed something very important here. According to the same story you’re citing, it was not a “small subset” of people who were the cause of God’s decision to cause a flood. Also, the Bible never mentions that the flood occurred because people didn’t “devote every waking moment to his worship“. Let’s take a look at why the flood occurred.
It was a small subset, because the only people that God ever talked about were Judeans. What about the hundreds of thousands of other people on the planet that God never talked about.
|The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. |
'evil' huh? So, every living person on the planet killed every other living thing on the planet?
FtK, Does evil truly fix evil? Do the ends justify the means?
Is God moral?
Yeah, I don't think so.
|Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.|
By killing them all and sending them all to hell (even the babies, heck, you could have at least eaten them).
Believe it or don’t, but don’t twist the content.
|Since he gave those creations free-will and they choose to use, He got pissed off and destroyed the planet.|
He did. He’s God....He can give and He can take. We’re His Creation. I would argue that what He did was a blessing to future generations.
So why won't you eat the babies?
|There are not a 'few' stories in the Bible that I would consider immoral... most of the Bible contains things I would consider immoral, which is freaking hilarious since I'm an atheist.|
Interesting conclusion. There is rarely a Sunday that goes by that I am not moved by our Pastor’s lectures with regard to scripture, and a large part of those lessons are in regard to our morality and how we should live. ALL based on scripture. I’m beginning to seriously doubt your familiarity with all of scripture.
So, your pastor skips that much of the Bible?
Here's an interesting exercise for you. Pick up a cheap Bible and take to every church service you go to. Highlight every verse that the preacher talks about. Put a star by it the second and all subsequent times.
Do this for one year.
Now, examine closely how much of the Bible was NOT mentioned.
Now, again, you might be moved by the lovely stories of the Good Samaritan, the lost coin, the prodigal son, the friend at night, etc. But these are all PARABLES!! They didn't actually happen. They are stories of how you should act... not things that actually happened.
|And you do not want to argue about evolution FtK. It is transparently obvious that you do not have one single clue about what science, biology, or evolution is about.|
I debated the scientific aspects of evolution for *years*, and it was more than obvious that this debate is comes down to ideology, religion, philosophy and worldview.
Bullshit. I'll repeat, you don't know enough about it to accurately judge it. You make massive errors everytime you talk about biology (and the Bible for that matter).
| There is no getting around it, and it’s futile to negate that fact. We’re debating gray areas of science. Those who refuse to consider an ultimate Creator will lean one way with regard to the evidence we do have, and those who reject a Creator will hold to the opposite assumptions. You also need to be reminded that I don’t bring up the topic of religion, you folks do. |
Interesting. A gray area of science is responsible for a variety of drugs that our society couldn't live without. A gray area of science is responsible for helping feed everyone on this planet. A gray area of science is saving lives all the time.
Yet, God does none of it.
|Scripture does not make logical sense. In fact, by definition, faith is belief without evidence. Logic is a form of evidence. Faith MUST be illogical, otherwise it is simple to reject.|
Untrue. There are *endless* paths of evidence that lead to the logical conclusion that there is an ultimate designer. Christianity also has an abundance of evidence to back it’s claims. You reject that evidence. Great...that’s your choice. Faith does *not* have to be illogical. Your own belief that life ultimately arose from nothing is certainly based on amount of faith. Do you find that faith illogical? Of course not, you follow evidence, as well as assumptions and speculation to come to this conclusion.
Bullshit. Either something happened or it didn't. Do you agree that one thing can either happen or not happen?
Of course you don't agree. If you did, then you would have to admit that there are massive contradictions in the Bible (Matthre 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10 for example).
We are not using the same type of reasoning. You are using fallacious arguments. You are cherry-picking. You are using strawmen.
Back atcha, Love.
I am using logic and actual facts. You are using apologetics, which are mad eup stories to make gullible people feel better about their magic book.
I guess if you make up things and say 'that's what it means' you can say anything you want, but then, if you do that, you can't go claiming the Bible is inerrant can you?
Back to morality...
It's our society and people for the last 1800 years have used the Bible to support everything from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition. It's that simple.
The Bible is not the source of our morality. It is only a source for justification of what some people want to do (kill homosexuals for example).
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.