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JonF



Posts: 571
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2012,11:23   

Quote (JonF @ April 16 2012,11:19)
Well, at ev blog there's a link to "An Analysis of Truman's Criticism of the Ev Model", but it's broken. I emailed him from his home page to let him know.

The link is fixed.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2012,02:53   

Mmmmh, paranormal goes to court.

Will the ghosts testify?

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2012,07:29   

A friend sent this to me. Not sure if this is the right place for it, but it's certainly a good reference piece and funny as hell:



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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 20 2012,21:57   

robin that is fantastic


anyone else laughing their balls off at nick matzkes meltdown in progress at PT?  fuck he really did say some of the dumbest shit i have ever read.  you owe it to yourself to revel in the tard

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Cubist



Posts: 349
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,02:15   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,April 20 2012,21:57)
robin that is fantastic


anyone else laughing their balls off at nick matzkes meltdown in progress at PT?  fuck he really did say some of the dumbest shit i have ever read.  you owe it to yourself to revel in the tard

Yeah... I posted a comment pointing out that since Gnu Atheists have been doing their thing for a number of years now, the negative effects he's attributing to Gnu Atheist activity are things that should be visibly occuring... so are those things occuring, or are they not? No response from Matzke, so I've posted again, making the same point in different words.

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,05:16   

Quote (Cubist @ April 21 2012,17:15)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,April 20 2012,21:57)
robin that is fantastic


anyone else laughing their balls off at nick matzkes meltdown in progress at PT?  fuck he really did say some of the dumbest shit i have ever read.  you owe it to yourself to revel in the tard

Yeah... I posted a comment pointing out that since Gnu Atheists have been doing their thing for a number of years now, the negative effects he's attributing to Gnu Atheist activity are things that should be visibly occuring... so are those things occuring, or are they not? No response from Matzke, so I've posted again, making the same point in different words.

I was about to post something when it was only on the second page. The next time I went back to have a look there was about 150 comments. I decided not to bother even reading.

Others probably posted similar. But I was going to post:

Why is what you term new atheists position is always misrepresented. The following 2 comments are truth statements and I have heard nobody can contradict them:

1. Many scientists are religious
2. Many people believe that that religion and science can mix.

The following is not a truth statement

3. Religion and Science can mix.

It is very much a matter of debate. A body representing science should not make the third statement. However, whenever the topic is brought up we are labelled with making statement 1 or 2.

  
Quack



Posts: 1751
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,06:34   

Quote
The following is not a truth statement

3. Religion and Science can mix.

It is very much a matter of debate. A body representing science should not make the third statement. However, whenever the topic is brought up we are labelled with making statement 1 or 2

The problem I see is that it always seems that the concept of "religion" is taken for granted, meaning just one and one thing only. That is, it defaults to fait in a god, most likely a Christian style Catholic or Evangelical god, although Yahweh and Jewis deities probably ought to be included aling with Allah, Allah often being equated with one of the Christian god images but as it seems to me, is not quite the same thing.

So what the heck is god, Who is he/she/it, and what are its properties? Can anyone say anything we positively know about god?

That is only the beginning, as far as I can tell there are also religions without a god, and patheistis religions as well.

I thing all this shows that mankind got asteay at some pooint in time, making written records of myths and beliefs as well as propaganda both of religious as well as political nature.

Things written in a specific situation at a specific time for a specific purpose that have been adopted as eternal truth valid for all tiem and ages.

I believe mankind, being the 'symbol animal' (Cassirer) has gone astray because of his symbols. Our symbols, the symbolic language of our subconscious are rela enough and they have the characteristic of being 'supernatural' because thay appear seemingly out of nothing, i.e. they are attributed to a god-concept, instead of being realizead as emanations from our own soul. A soul we all share, it is universal in natuer and is there for a reason and purpose.

But institutionalized, book religiond have got it all wrong, they insist that the symbols should be read literally, like f.i. the symbols fo death and resurrection.

Like Sigmund Freud showed, and what even is explained in  the book of Job, God is the one who send us dreams in our sleep and they require an interpreter to translate the symbolic content into meaningful language.

The subconscious is and should be hidden behind a curtain but may break through if induced by drugs or various more or less classifiable as 'psychotic' conditions.

Writing this without consulting or referencing sources, it is a subject covered in lots of literature but inaccessible to most people because the playground is very rough, strewn with rocks and pebbles.

There are reasons why man is religious; it is because of his nature, an animal having become conscious; cast into the worild without really knowing where he is coming from or where he is.

That's what the ancients struggled with and with lot of pain have been able to make some progress to cope with, but the  tentative solutions have been canonized and we wil have to live with them for a long time yet.

This isn't the best I have written but the best I can do in about half an hour or so.

I almost forgot my bottom line: My religion is 100% compatible with science. Because I have no god or devil anywhere except in my own soul. And they are both one and the same, a medusa.

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YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3553
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,07:38   

There are two separable things involved. One is beliefs and the other is church. One is personal and the other has money and power and political aspirations.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,09:56   

Quote (Cubist @ April 21 2012,02:15)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,April 20 2012,21:57)
robin that is fantastic


anyone else laughing their balls off at nick matzkes meltdown in progress at PT?  fuck he really did say some of the dumbest shit i have ever read.  you owe it to yourself to revel in the tard

Yeah... I posted a comment pointing out that since Gnu Atheists have been doing their thing for a number of years now, the negative effects he's attributing to Gnu Atheist activity are things that should be visibly occuring... so are those things occuring, or are they not? No response from Matzke, so I've posted again, making the same point in different words.

I read that thread through Coyne's website, and was going to post that there was some serious Tard in that thread, but decided to change my language for his website.

I did suggest sending Robert Byers over there to raise the level of comedy, though.  Heven't been there since it was about 125 comments, though.  Has Kwok brought up his high school yet, or has he also melted down further over the "Ken Miller is a creationist" bit that has him (and a few others) frothing at the mouth.  Not sure why the logic of "If you believe a supernatural being created the universe, or the earth, or life, then you are a creationist" is so hard to understand.

ETA - well, speak of the devil.  As soon as I go to check on what has been written, I see it's over 280 comments, and one of the first is from Booby.  I can haz Prophecy?

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,10:08   

I really don't want to post there yet, but how can someone write this with a straight face?

Quote
Nick Matzke: responding to: So your barometer for truth is how many people share your opinion? That kind of thing is really dangerous.

Nope. The point is that saying that Handel’s music is a great work of art isn’t just mere subjective opinion. You can disagree, but you’d be as bonkers as a creationist to do so. There is objective truth here. Handel was a musical genius and found a way to stir the deepest emotions of people with music. But did we get his music from science? No. Does the objectively true statement that Handel’s Messiah is a great work come from from science? No.


Saying that Handel's music is great isn't just subjective opinion?  It may be an objective truth that some (or many) believe his music to be great, but that's a whole different ball of wax than saying that it is objectively true that it is great.  What are the objective criteria for "greatness"?  How can we test this, and how can people all around the world agree and come to the same conclusion?  Isn't that kinda what an objective fact would have to be?

Is this just too subtle a point, since it contradicts the point he needs to make?  Am I the one who misunderstands here?  I just don't see subjective opinions becoming objective facts when all you have is a number of people agreeing with you.  Am I wrong to say that is really jumping the shark in pursuit of a particular dogmatic assertion?

ETA: sorry, I forgot the direct link

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2109
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,14:39   

O ffs.

"Wouldn't you simply die without Mahler?"

I usually have a lot of respect for Nick's posts; this one confounds me.

That said, strident, militant, uncompromising atheism, if indeed such a thing exists, would be kind of annoying, too. I think living in the demon-haunted world is a bit silly, but, y'know, a chaque son gout and all that.

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,16:07   

Quote (fnxtr @ April 21 2012,14:39)
O ffs.

"Wouldn't you simply die without Mahler?"

I usually have a lot of respect for Nick's posts; this one confounds me.

That said, strident, militant, uncompromising atheism, if indeed such a thing exists, would be kind of annoying, too. I think living in the demon-haunted world is a bit silly, but, y'know, a chaque son gout and all that.

No, I wouldn't die.  I can't stand is TV shows...

Bill Mahler?

.....

I can hear you breathing.   :D

ETA - "is tv shows"?  I've suddenly gone all Cockney (or something like it)?  Aargh!  "HIS tv shows"

But I do have to add, how Eurocentric is that?  If I could figure out who wrote the music, I've got a lot of classical Chinese and japanese that I listen to, even preferring it to the often overblown baroque (and other European classical) music.  Or are they "objectively worse" in Matzke's version of "truth"

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2012,23:15   

Quote (Badger3k @ April 21 2012,10:08)
I really don't want to post there yet, but how can someone write this with a straight face?

 
Quote
Nick Matzke: responding to: So your barometer for truth is how many people share your opinion? That kind of thing is really dangerous.

Nope. The point is that saying that Handel’s music is a great work of art isn’t just mere subjective opinion. You can disagree, but you’d be as bonkers as a creationist to do so. There is objective truth here. Handel was a musical genius and found a way to stir the deepest emotions of people with music. But did we get his music from science? No. Does the objectively true statement that Handel’s Messiah is a great work come from from science? No.


Saying that Handel's music is great isn't just subjective opinion?  It may be an objective truth that some (or many) believe his music to be great, but that's a whole different ball of wax than saying that it is objectively true that it is great.  What are the objective criteria for "greatness"?  How can we test this, and how can people all around the world agree and come to the same conclusion?  Isn't that kinda what an objective fact would have to be?

Is this just too subtle a point, since it contradicts the point he needs to make?  Am I the one who misunderstands here?  I just don't see subjective opinions becoming objective facts when all you have is a number of people agreeing with you.  Am I wrong to say that is really jumping the shark in pursuit of a particular dogmatic assertion?

ETA: sorry, I forgot the direct link

It's great because it's popular. Popular being aggregate positive subjectivity.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2012,13:14   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2012,00:15)
Popular being aggregate positive subjectivity.

:D  :O  :D

re kwokkers, SLC goaded him into it a little bit but mostly he has been lobbing turnips off the truck about "anyone that doesn't think abraham lincoln is objectively great must be racist and therefre live in alabama or mississippit" hilarious horseshite

that has to be one of the stupidest sombitches that ever owned a thesaurus

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2012,14:30   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ April 22 2012,13:14)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2012,00:15)
Popular being aggregate positive subjectivity.

:D  :O  :D

re kwokkers, SLC goaded him into it a little bit but mostly he has been lobbing turnips off the truck about "anyone that doesn't think abraham lincoln is objectively great must be racist and therefre live in alabama or mississippit" hilarious horseshite

that has to be one of the stupidest sombitches that ever owned a thesaurus

Between Matzke still refusing to say what "truth" is in the music (other than people like it, and it arouses emotions in people - which may be factual, but to call that "truth"?) and Kwok's "racism only exists in small towns" - since there are black politicians we are justified in ignoring the entire south, Rush Limbaugh, "welfare queens", the Southern Strategy, the Birther movement, etc, etc, etc.

I don't know how so many of you put up with that kind of Tard.  

On a similar note, Mutant Planet went into "beyond the wormhole" with Morgan Freeman.  When a supposed science show gives credence to the "global consciousness project" (without any response from sane scientists) and gives Rupert Sheldrake free reign to spout his "morphic field" as if it is a hypothesis taken seriously by scientists who aren't crackpots...

Gah.

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2012,09:41   

We need to have a contest.  Somebody would find a random bit of tard and then we would all have a go at refuting it.

The one with the best, most comprehensive (and knowing us, pithy) rebuttal wins.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 3553
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2012,09:44   

I place in nomination the last thing I read on the way here:

Quote
William J. Murray on April 25, 2012 at 2:53 pm said:
Quote
Natural selection is differential reproductive success!


That’s like calling what might just be the remainder of division problem the quotient. Because you happen to be left with some living things doesn’t mean “natural” selection is the reason why those things remain. You assume that life can continue **at all** via “natural” selection. For all you know, for life to continue existing beyond a very short span of time (if at all), artificial selection is necessary. The true quotient of “natural” selection might be death and extinction

Reiterating improper, ideological tautologies via “argument by definition” adds nothing of value to the debate.


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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2012,10:29   

Quote (midwifetoad @ April 25 2012,09:44)
I place in nomination the last thing I read on the way here:

Quote
William J. Murray on April 25, 2012 at 2:53 pm said:
Quote
Natural selection is differential reproductive success!


That’s like calling what might just be the remainder of division problem the quotient. Because you happen to be left with some living things doesn’t mean “natural” selection is the reason why those things remain. You assume that life can continue **at all** via “natural” selection. For all you know, for life to continue existing beyond a very short span of time (if at all), artificial selection is necessary. The true quotient of “natural” selection might be death and extinction

Reiterating improper, ideological tautologies via “argument by definition” adds nothing of value to the debate.

I'm at work and can't get to the image, but a Picard-Ryker Double Facepalm would be appropriate.

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Henry J



Posts: 4039
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2012,10:30   

Quote (OgreMkV @ April 25 2012,08:41)
We need to have a contest.  Somebody would find a random bit of tard and then we would all have a go at refuting it.

The one with the best, most comprehensive (and knowing us, pithy) rebuttal wins.

Them: Second law prevents evolution!

Me: Go outside on a clear day. Notice that bright yellow thing in the sky? That's called the sun.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2109
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2012,21:11   

... and we are not perpetual motion machines. Energy flows through us, most of it wasted as heat or turned into poop.

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"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2012,21:28   

Quote (fnxtr @ April 25 2012,21:11)
... and we are not perpetual motion machines. Energy flows through us, most of it wasted as heat or turned into poop.

Turns into poop - you mean a Denyse O'Leary post?

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 26 2012,08:10   

Quote (Badger3k @ April 25 2012,21:28)
Quote (fnxtr @ April 25 2012,21:11)
... and we are not perpetual motion machines. Energy flows through us, most of it wasted as heat or turned into poop.

Turns into poop - you mean a Denyse O'Leary post?

No.  At least dung beetles can survive on real poop.  No one can survive reading a DoL post.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2012,16:48   

I ran into J-Dog at the American Association of Museums annual meeting. :)



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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2012,18:07   

Quote (Kristine @ May 01 2012,16:48)
I ran into J-Dog at the American Association of Museums annual meeting. :)


Dude really gets around. I saw him playing for the Washington Nationals during Spring Training.



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4361
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2012,21:16   

Thanks Witchy Woman Librarian, and especial thanks to Carlson for bringing up the memories of my long ago lost crushed teen-aged dreams. :(

Not only did I NOT get a pony when I was ten, I never made it to the Major Leagues!

BUT, looking at the bright side, I made it out of the caves of ToraBora...

And looking at the REAL bright side, I have at least evolved beyond the stage of Homo IDCist. :)

BTW - Good pics!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2012,22:38   

P.S. - My DNA Day programs are done. Our final event was tonight.

I am tired, but proud. We had small audiences (with one exception - Lynn Fellman's presentation) but long and lively Q&As. People got answers and help. We have feedback and ideas for next year to build a larger and sustainable program.

I learned a lot about genetics counseling, testing, heredity, and family health history. I just published my fifth! article in one year :) and am looking forward to writing up our experience, and maybe even presenting it at the American Library Association's annual meeting, where I first learned of this curriculum.

And all because my internship supervisor allowed me to play hookie and attend the conference! :D

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2109
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2012,08:39   

Quote (Kristine @ May 01 2012,20:38)
P.S. - My DNA Day programs are done. Our final event was tonight.

I am tired, but proud. We had small audiences (with one exception - Lynn Fellman's presentation) but long and lively Q&As. People got answers and help. We have feedback and ideas for next year to build a larger and sustainable program.

I learned a lot about genetics counseling, testing, heredity, and family health history. I just published my fifth! article in one year :) and am looking forward to writing up our experience, and maybe even presenting it at the American Library Association's annual meeting, where I first learned of this curriculum.

And all because my internship supervisor allowed me to play hookie and attend the conference! :D

Again, Brava, Kristine!

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2012,16:35   

OgreMkV, your wet dream is calling...

http://www.kickstarter.com/project....edition

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3282
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2012,21:41   

Quote (dvunkannon @ May 02 2012,16:35)
OgreMkV, your wet dream is calling...

http://www.kickstarter.com/project....edition

Oh yeah, I've had my order in for weeks.  I talked to Andrew tonight who works for Steve Jackson and he said that the $500k goal was going to be pure awesomeness.  But he wouldn't say what it was... the bastard.

And yes, one of the Ogre Mk Is will be named after my son.  It'll be on the special "mercenaries sheet" where everyone who contributed gets to put their name (or whatever) on a unit.

Edited by OgreMkV on May 02 2012,21:42

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
JonF



Posts: 571
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2012,18:07   

http://tinyurl.com/cc3tccm....cc3tccm

  
  19124 replies since Jan. 17 2006,08:38 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

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