RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (39) < ... 29 30 31 32 33 [34] 35 36 37 38 39 ... >   
  Topic: Vox Day: Alpha Fail., Rich veins of untapped Tard< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,13:15   

Quote
You stupid, stupid little bint.


is that name calling or an observation?  i am not sure

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,13:18   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,12:19)
It always amazes me to no end that people who find the Bible abhorent seem to focus only on the few instances where God commands a city destroyed.

It seems ridiculous to me that since you believe a few stories are immoral according to what *you* consider might have been occuring at the time, that you dismiss the entire book null and void.  You aren't God, you werent' there, and you have no idea.  

The problem is, FtK, that a book devoted to "moral standards" should not contain any[ morally ambiguous or relative conditions. The fact that the bible does so makes not just those odd passages suspect, but also reduces (and in many cases outright removes) the credibility of any potentially "morally instructive" passages. Why? Because such ambiguous passages create conflict with the very "morally instructive" passages themselves.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,14:32   

Quote (Robin @ Aug. 29 2011,13:18)
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,12:19)
It always amazes me to no end that people who find the Bible abhorent seem to focus only on the few instances where God commands a city destroyed.

It seems ridiculous to me that since you believe a few stories are immoral according to what *you* consider might have been occuring at the time, that you dismiss the entire book null and void.  You aren't God, you werent' there, and you have no idea.  

The problem is, FtK, that a book devoted to "moral standards" should not contain any[ morally ambiguous or relative conditions. The fact that the bible does so makes not just those odd passages suspect, but also reduces (and in many cases outright removes) the credibility of any potentially "morally instructive" passages. Why? Because such ambiguous passages create conflict with the very "morally instructive" passages themselves.

Lots of things in life are ambiguous.  That doesn't mean we reject them outright.  We THINK them through.  Not everything in life is automatically black and white, but rather depends on discernment to make sense of the matter.

If you read through the arguments in the links I provided, you cannot suggest that those arguments must be rejected outright just because *your* sense of "morality"  and what a "god" would do in every situation won't allow it.  

Again, it's interesting that so much of Darwinian evolution is based upon the same type of rationalizing arguments, yet you *believe* you have rock solids fact.  Then you turn around and automatically reject my rationalization of scripture even though it makes logical sense to so many.  

It's ok that you believe what you do, but you can't condemn others who think differently when it's quite obvious that we are all using the same type of reasoning.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3553
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,14:42   

Actually, one doesn't automatically reject the existence of a god because he appears to be a psychopath.

One rejects the idea of worshiping a morally despicable god and wonders about what kind of degenerate would.

The parsimonious explanation that avoids this quandary is to suspect that like all other myths, the Abrahamic god is just another myth that justified whatever it was the leaders of the tribes wanted to do.

Nothing is proved, but belief or non-belief is pretty much beside the point.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
JohnW



Posts: 2228
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,14:45   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,12:32)
Again, it's interesting that so much of Darwinian evolution is based upon the same type of rationalizing arguments, yet you *believe* you have rock solids fact.   

Data not shown.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3285
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,14:54   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,14:32)
Quote (Robin @ Aug. 29 2011,13:18)
Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,12:19)
It always amazes me to no end that people who find the Bible abhorent seem to focus only on the few instances where God commands a city destroyed.

It seems ridiculous to me that since you believe a few stories are immoral according to what *you* consider might have been occuring at the time, that you dismiss the entire book null and void.  You aren't God, you werent' there, and you have no idea.  

The problem is, FtK, that a book devoted to "moral standards" should not contain any[ morally ambiguous or relative conditions. The fact that the bible does so makes not just those odd passages suspect, but also reduces (and in many cases outright removes) the credibility of any potentially "morally instructive" passages. Why? Because such ambiguous passages create conflict with the very "morally instructive" passages themselves.

Lots of things in life are ambiguous.  That doesn't mean we reject them outright.  We THINK them through.  Not everything in life is automatically black and white, but rather depends on discernment to make sense of the matter.

If you read through the arguments in the links I provided, you cannot suggest that those arguments must be rejected outright just because *your* sense of "morality"  and what a "god" would do in every situation won't allow it.  

Again, it's interesting that so much of Darwinian evolution is based upon the same type of rationalizing arguments, yet you *believe* you have rock solids fact.  Then you turn around and automatically reject my rationalization of scripture even though it makes logical sense to so many.  

It's ok that you believe what you do, but you can't condemn others who think differently when it's quite obvious that we are all using the same type of reasoning.

I thought we have been over this.  There is no moral absolutism.  (an argument you ran away from elsewhere)

What is moral is defined by our CULTURE and our SOCIETY, not by our religion or by any deity.  While it's true that deities may be a part of our culture, it is obvious (if one actually reads the Bible) that none of our morality is actually based on the Bible.

Jesus condoned slavery.  The Southern Baptists had slavery written into their church charter until 1996.

God, according to your Bible (which, BTW, is Jesus too according to your Bible) destroyed every living on the entire planet (every living thing which he created by the way), because a small subset of his creations didn't devote every waking moment to his worship.

Since he gave those creations free-will and they choose to use, He got pissed off and destroyed the planet.

And you want to talk about reading the Bible and interpreting Biblical morality?

There are not a 'few' stories in the Bible that I would consider immoral... most of the Bible contains things I would consider immoral, which is freaking hilarious since I'm an atheist.

And you do not want to argue about evolution FtK.  It is transparently obvious that you do not have one single clue about what science, biology, or evolution is about.

Scripture does not make logical sense.  In fact, by definition, faith is belief without evidence.  Logic is a form of evidence.  Faith MUST be illogical, otherwise it is simple to reject.

We are not using the same type of reasoning.  You are using fallacious arguments.  You are cherry-picking.  You are using strawmen.  You are not using logic.  Logic is there are only three mutually exclusive choices.

1) God is absolutely moral, in which case, you had better eat the baby.

2) God is not absolutely moral, in which case you disagree with God when you choose not to eat the baby.

3) There is a higher morality that God subscribes to, in which case God is not the source of morality and everything in the Bible that we think is immoral actually is immoral, including your God.

Which is it?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,14:58   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 29 2011,14:42)
Actually, one doesn't automatically reject the existence of a god because he appears to be a psychopath.

One rejects the idea of worshiping a morally despicable god and wonders about what kind of degenerate would.

The parsimonious explanation that avoids this quandary is to suspect that like all other myths, the Abrahamic god is just another myth that justified whatever it was the leaders of the tribes wanted to do.

Nothing is proved, but belief or non-belief is pretty much beside the point.

And, that's your thoughts on the matter.  Contrary to your opinion, millions of people attain great joy and a sense of peace when facing life's trials due to their belief in an ultimate Creator.  They also actually enjoy worshipping a God who has provided so much for them both physically and spiritually.  

So, again, just because you do not experience what others do in regard to worship of the Creator does not mean what we believe is false.  

You consider Him morally despicable according to your own discernment of a history you were not involved in.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3553
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,15:07   

Quote
And, that's your thoughts on the matter.  Contrary to your opinion, millions of people attain great joy and a sense of peace when facing life's trials due to their belief in an ultimate Creator.


And millions have been slaughtered for not conforming to someone else's beliefs. Quite a few of them as recorded in the Bible.

People who believe absurdities commit atrocities.

I take no comfort in the fact that you think the god who ordered the destruction of Jericho is a morally upright entity.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,15:17   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 29 2011,15:07)
Quote
And, that's your thoughts on the matter.  Contrary to your opinion, millions of people attain great joy and a sense of peace when facing life's trials due to their belief in an ultimate Creator.


And millions have been slaughtered for not conforming to someone else's beliefs. Quite a few of them as recorded in the Bible.

People who believe absurdities commit atrocities.

I take no comfort in the fact that you think the god who ordered the destruction of Jericho is a morally upright entity.

You *really* need to read the links I provided.  There are hours worth of reading at The Thinking Christian if you follow all his links.  This is NOT a topic that can be rejected with merely a flip of the hand.  You're thinking process is extremely simplistic, imho.  One need consider all of Biblical history, the nature of God and ancient history surrounding this time period when broaching this topic.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,15:17   

*Your

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3553
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,15:31   

Quote
You're thinking process is extremely simplistic, imho.  One need consider all of Biblical history, the nature of God and ancient history surrounding this time period when broaching this topic.


I'm not exactly a youngster. I've been actively considering these issues since my confirmation class, nearly 55 years ago.

I just find it odd that the farther back we look at Abrahamic religion, the more corrupt it looks. My intuition is that if leaders were actively speaking to god and actively receiving instructions, that their behavior would more nearly reflect the will of god.

So either someone lied about receiving orders to commit genocide, or god is a moral monster.

I tend to think the leaders made the whole thing up.

I'm not at all impressed with the argument that ancient people were somehow operating under some sort of get out of jail free card when it comes to genocide. They knew it was evil.

David, who was not a paragon of virtue, knew it was evil, and tried to defy the priests.

It doesn't take a saint to recognize atrocity. But it takes a very odd person, in my opinion, to think the stories about Yahweh are about a creator god, and not just rationalizations.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,15:34   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,21:17)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 29 2011,15:07)
Quote
And, that's your thoughts on the matter.  Contrary to your opinion, millions of people attain great joy and a sense of peace when facing life's trials due to their belief in an ultimate Creator.


And millions have been slaughtered for not conforming to someone else's beliefs. Quite a few of them as recorded in the Bible.

People who believe absurdities commit atrocities.

I take no comfort in the fact that you think the god who ordered the destruction of Jericho is a morally upright entity.

You *really* need to read the links I provided.  There are hours worth of reading at The Thinking Christian if you follow all his links.  This is NOT a topic that can be rejected with merely a flip of the hand.  You're thinking process is extremely simplistic, imho.  One need consider all of Biblical history, the nature of God and ancient history surrounding this time period when broaching this topic.

Oh really? Like I'm sure you've done for Thor, Odin, Tiamat, Zeus, Apollo, Mithras, Zoroaster....

I, for one, love your attempts at relativism and shifting the burden of proof, FTK. Whilst there are complex arguments to be had, that doesn't change the fact that many of them are very simple. I'd be a little wary of who you're accusing of over simplifying difficult issues.

Toodle pip!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,15:49   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,15:17)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 29 2011,15:07)
Quote
And, that's your thoughts on the matter.  Contrary to your opinion, millions of people attain great joy and a sense of peace when facing life's trials due to their belief in an ultimate Creator.


And millions have been slaughtered for not conforming to someone else's beliefs. Quite a few of them as recorded in the Bible.

People who believe absurdities commit atrocities.

I take no comfort in the fact that you think the god who ordered the destruction of Jericho is a morally upright entity.

You *really* need to read the links I provided.  There are hours worth of reading at The Thinking Christian if you follow all his links.  This is NOT a topic that can be rejected with merely a flip of the hand.  You're thinking process is extremely simplistic, imho.  One need consider all of Biblical history, the nature of God and ancient history surrounding this time period when broaching this topic.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyng....ply.php

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3285
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,15:55   

Genetic diversity...

Aug 29 2011 Published by genomicrepairman under Uncategorized

typically in days of yonder was the result of non-consentual sex with invading armies.  I have nothing else to add to that.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4361
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,15:56   

Quote
The Thinking Christian


404 - Data Not Found

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JohnW



Posts: 2228
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,16:08   

Quote (Louis @ Aug. 29 2011,13:34)
Oh really? Like I'm sure you've done for Thor, Odin, Tiamat, Zeus, Apollo, Mithras, Zoroaster....

But Louis, they weren't true gods, so they don't count.  The true god said so.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
the_ignored



Posts: 50
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,17:13   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,13:07)
Do you know how many times I've heard all of *your* rationalizations for your beliefs?  We all know the score.  You choose to reject an ultimate Creator, I choose to accept.  Amen...that's it.  period.

I offer no more rationalizing or apologetics than all of you do both in regard to religion as well as Darwinian evolution. And, yes, I classify them in the same category in this instance because your "facts" are based on assumption and rationalization.  NOT science.

I call you names because, quite frankly, you earn them.  For one who claims to have "absolute" morality and who calls herself "pro-life" it's damned jarring to see you turn around and defend god-ordained child-killing.  My explanation for the development of morality fits reality a fuck of a lot better.

As for evolution not being based on science?  

Only in your fantasy world.  Read and learn something.

  
the_ignored



Posts: 50
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,17:32   

Hey guys, should I be honoured or ashamed?  It seems that Vox has now dedicated an entire post to me.

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,19:20   

Quote (the_ignored @ Aug. 29 2011,17:32)
Hey guys, should I be honoured or ashamed?  It seems that Vox has now dedicated an entire post to me.

Honored - Wile E Coyote, Super-Genius, has deigned to notice you.  Wow.

I like this bit of bizarre writing:
Quote
Now, for all that Pharyngulans tend to believe that Vox Popoli is the polar opposite of the echo chamber that is Pharyngula, that really is not the case. Here, one is expected to respond directly to the questions posed; any rationalizations or justifications are to be offered AFTER providing an answer to the question, not in lieu of it.


If I read correctly, the Pharyngulans think that Vox's blog is the "polar opposite of the echo chamber...", meaning they think that Vox's blog is not an echo chamber, and "that really is not the case" - so he is saying his blog is an echo chamber?  Don't forget to laugh at that part about rationalizations, too.

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
the_ignored



Posts: 50
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,19:37   

I do reply to the guy, showing how he lies about me not answering his questions, and I do ask him some questions of my own.

But FUCK!  That commenting system over there keeps fucking up my replies!  The previews look good but when I submit...

Oy,   At least my message gets across but I have to admit it really loses credibility (whether justified or not) to have that keep happening.  

Oh well, I think I'm done over there anyway.

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,19:50   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,13:07)
{snip idiocy}

I offer no more rationalizing or apologetics than all of you do both in regard to religion as well as Darwinian evolution. And, yes, I classify them in the same category in this instance because your "facts" are based on assumption and rationalization.  NOT science.

I wish a sig could be this long.  Ftk, you are an ever-flowing fountain of inanity. It makes one wonder how big your prop closet is (I'm jealous).

Let's take a look at the bolded part.  From observed behavior on this forum we have several facts:

1.  You believe that people can know the contents of a book without reading it

2.  You claim you want to have serious discussion on the issues of science and education.

3.  You have a whole boatload of scientific and educational questions left unanswered because you either have no idea how to answer them or you're not really all that interested in discussion.

4.  You're afraid of jellyfish.

5.  You have had multiple offers of discussion of just the issues you claim to want to talk about.

6.  Several knowledgeable folk have presented you with concepts that you merely claim are wrong without providing any (and I mean none) reason for claiming so.

Since it has been observed that you have done nothing but rationalize for your entire history on this forum, how exactly will you rationalize your statement above?

When you have something to say that is not purely subjective, let us know.  Otherwise, save yourself the trouble of looking stupider each time you appear and call your friends when you're not feeling as popular as you'd like.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,20:15   

Quote
While it's true that deities may be a part of our culture, it is obvious (if one actually reads the Bible) that none of our morality is actually based on the Bible.


For someone who boasts of reading the Bible so many times (weren’t you the one who said they’d read the bible 4 times as well as in a language other than English?  If not, my apologies...one of you stated that recently), you seem amiss here.  There are endless passages in the Bible that people refer to in regard to morality ALL the TIME. Each Sunday alone, Pastors preach morality from the pulpit based upon scripture.  Your statement is patently absurd.  Granted, it may possibly be that you never hear any of this as I’m beginning to wonder if you live in a reclusive atheist commune.

Now, if you’re suggesting that because “Christianity” was organized long after humans “evolved“, and you’re *assuming* that morality was already in place before that time due to what was passed down through evolutionary means, then that is something you cannot prove any more than I can in regard to how our sense of morality was established.  From written documents that we DO have, the most logical explanation is that morality was ultimately established by God.  No other text from antiquity provides as much moral content as the Bible.  According to those texts, our sense of morality was intact from the beginning.  Trial, error, sin  and the results of those helped established that. Oral tradition as well as documentation of events were passed down throughout the generations, and at one point the Jews put together what was to become the OT which combined these historical accounts.  Reject any part or the totality of scripture, but you have nothing that *proves* morality was originally established by other means entirely.  You have *assumption* and *speculation* based on questionable “science“.  

Quote
Jesus condoned slavery. The Southern Baptists had slavery written into their church charter until 1996.


We’ve been over this several time in the past, so I’ll provide a link to keep this post from getting to entirely to lengthy. PLEASE READ IT.

Quote
God, according to your Bible (which, BTW, is Jesus too according to your Bible) destroyed every living on the entire planet (every living thing which he created by the way), because a small subset of his creations didn't devote every waking moment to his worship.


Again, for someone who has read the bible so thoroughly, you’ve missed something very important here.  According to the same story you’re citing, it was not a “small subset” of people who were the cause of God’s decision to cause a flood.  Also, the Bible never mentions that the flood occurred because people didn’t “devote every waking moment to his worship“.  Let’s take a look at why the flood occurred.  

Quote
The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.


Quote
Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.


Believe it or don’t, but don’t twist the content.

Quote
Since he gave those creations free-will and they choose to use, He got pissed off and destroyed the planet.


He did.  He’s God....He can give and He can take.  We’re His Creation.  I would argue that what He did was a blessing to future generations.  

Quote
There are not a 'few' stories in the Bible that I would consider immoral... most of the Bible contains things I would consider immoral, which is freaking hilarious since I'm an atheist.


Interesting conclusion.  There is rarely a Sunday that goes by that I am not moved by our Pastor’s lectures with regard to scripture, and a large part of those lessons are in regard to our morality and how we should live.  ALL based on scripture.  I’m beginning to seriously doubt your familiarity with all of scripture.

Quote
And you do not want to argue about evolution FtK. It is transparently obvious that you do not have one single clue about what science, biology, or evolution is about.


I debated the scientific aspects of evolution for *years*, and it was more than obvious that this debate is comes down to ideology, religion, philosophy and worldview.  There is no getting around it, and it’s futile to negate that fact.  We’re debating gray areas of science.  Those who refuse to consider an ultimate Creator will lean one way with regard to the evidence we do have, and those who reject a Creator will hold to the opposite assumptions. You also need to be reminded that I don’t bring up the topic of religion, you folks do.  

Quote
Scripture does not make logical sense. In fact, by definition, faith is belief without evidence. Logic is a form of evidence. Faith MUST be illogical, otherwise it is simple to reject.


Untrue.  There are *endless* paths of evidence that lead to the logical conclusion that there is an ultimate designer.  Christianity also has an abundance of evidence to back it’s claims.  You reject that evidence.  Great...that’s your choice.  Faith does *not* have to be illogical.  Your own belief that life ultimately arose from nothing is certainly based on amount of faith.  Do you find that faith illogical?  Of course not, you follow evidence, as well as assumptions and speculation to come to this conclusion.

[/quote]We are not using the same type of reasoning. You are using fallacious arguments. You are cherry-picking. You are using strawmen. [/quote]

Back atcha, Love.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,20:25   

Oh for shit sake, FTK.  That preachers preach morality from the pulpit in no way makes the Bible a source of ultimate morality.  Come on, you have to see this simple point.  If you don't, there is absolutely no hope for you behaving as a rational human being.  An example (I know, examples are unnecessary claptrap, but bare with me):

I tell my class that in the Polish mime tradition, they should stay connected to the ground for a particular scene we're doing.  The class has read some material on Polish mime technique.  It does not follow that the source of "rootedness" in acting is Polish mime tradition.

This is simple stuff, FTK.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,20:28   

As for a small subset of people being responsible for the flood.  Have you done the math problem I asked you to do yet?  The one about the population of the world between Noah and the Eqyptians?  Nevermind.  I'm more interested in why you haven't done it.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,20:31   

FTK:
Quote
Now, if you’re suggesting that because “Christianity” was organized long after humans “evolved“, and you’re *assuming* that morality was already in place before that time due to what was passed down through evolutionary means...


Is it possible for you to follow the arguments you make into the future?  At all? Even unto just the next sentence?

Please explain to me why you believe that it is possible for humans to exist without a moral code, or apparently even the idea of what a moral code could be.

Truly baffling.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3285
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,21:02   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,20:15)
[/quote]
   
Quote
While it's true that deities may be a part of our culture, it is obvious (if one actually reads the Bible) that none of our morality is actually based on the Bible.


For someone who boasts of reading the Bible so many times (weren’t you the one who said they’d read the bible 4 times as well as in a language other than English?

If not, my apologies...one of you stated that recently), you seem amiss here.  There are endless passages in the Bible that people refer to in regard to morality ALL the TIME.


Yes, and those passages, almost universally decry the keeping of slaves, the rape of unmarried women, treating enemy soldiers with respect...

Oh wait, that's Tom Clancy, not the Bible.  The Bible encourages that stuff.  God encourages that stuff.  Would you like the quotes from the Bible?  Because I can bet that I can find more quotes supporting things you and I both consider immoral than you can find supporting things that we both think or moral.
   
Quote

   
Quote

While it's true that deities may be a part of our culture, it is obvious (if one actually reads the Bible) that none of our morality is actually based on the Bible.


Each Sunday alone, Pastors preach morality from the pulpit based upon scripture.  



And every US presidential condidate since Thomas Jefferson has promised change.  It's easy to say things that aren't real.

   
Quote


Your statement is patently absurd.  Granted, it may possibly be that you never hear any of this as I’m beginning to wonder if you live in a reclusive atheist commune.


Nope, simple facts here.  I know that you reside in a reclusive Christian commune, where you do not question your Pastor, your father, and God (in that order).  

It's also pretty obvious that you have never read the Bible, just listened to what that pastor says every morning.  Isn't it interesting how pastors (I've had over twelve in my church-going years) never mention all the patent impossibilities in the Bible and all the contradictions (list of 100 ready for you, whenever you want them).

But your cute (lame, weak) ad hominim doesn't change any of the actual facts.

I'll repeat.  Current US culture is not based on Biblical morality.  If it is, then how much do you want for your daughter?

Curiously, there are several cultures in the world that are based on the morality of their holy book and they are universally decried by Christians. Interesting...


   
Quote

Now, if you’re suggesting that because “Christianity” was organized long after humans “evolved“, and you’re *assuming* that morality was already in place


Quote where I said that.

This is called a 'strawman' argument.  In this, you are attacking something that no one has said or defended.  Everything past this is a waste od electrons.

What I maintain is that the morals of the culture are based on evolution of that culture over time.  Things change.  2000 years ago, keeping slaves was fine.  200 years ago, keeping slaves was fine.  20 years ago... not so much.  

The morals of our society are based on things that we find offensive.  If you go to another (mostly Christian) nation, you will find things in that culture that you would think are morally repugnant.  For example, selling your excess daughters into prostitution or the imprisonment and killing of homosexuals.  Of course, you claim to find these things immoral, yet the exact same belief system that you subscribe to is used to justify both of the acts I just described.

In other words, the Bible does not give us morality.  It is used as after-the-fact justification for the morals already present in the society.

   
Quote


before that time due to what was passed down through evolutionary means, then that is something you cannot prove any more than I can in regard to how our sense of morality was established.  From written documents that we DO have, the most logical explanation is that morality was ultimately established by God.


Prove it.  Prove God exists... then answer the question: If God commanded that eating babies is both moral and required, then why wouldn't you eat them?

   
Quote



No other text from antiquity provides as much moral content as the Bible.


Bullshit.  Ever read the Illiad?  The Oddesy?  The moral lessons in the Greek myths?   How about the viking myths?  No?  I'm not surprised.

Of course, what you don't understand, is that the Bible is mostly cobbled together from the usefull bits of legends much older than it is.

Hell, the Code of Hammurabi says the same thing as the Bible.  Remember "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"?  Code of Hammurabi, 1700 years before the Bible.

Of course, if you want an actual moral code, what about the Hippocratic Oath?  500 years before Christ and originally sworn to Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia and Panacea.  

So much for all of that.


   
Quote


According to those texts, our sense of morality was intact from the beginning.  Trial, error, sin  and the results of those helped established that. Oral tradition as well as documentation of events were passed down throughout the generations, and at one point the Jews put together what was to become the OT which combined these historical accounts.  Reject any part or the totality of scripture, but you have nothing that *proves* morality was originally established by other means entirely.  You have *assumption* and *speculation* based on questionable “science“.  


Nonsense, as shown above.

   
Quote


     
Quote
Jesus condoned slavery. The Southern Baptists had slavery written into their church charter until 1996.


We’ve been over this several time in the past, so I’ll provide a link to keep this post from getting to entirely to lengthy. PLEASE READ IT.



No.  There are too many interesting things to read than apologetics.  Summarize it for me, then we'll see.  Bullet the salient points with references to the Bible.  Go ahead... I'll wait.

   
Quote

     
Quote
God, according to your Bible (which, BTW, is Jesus too according to your Bible) destroyed every living on the entire planet (every living thing which he created by the way), because a small subset of his creations didn't devote every waking moment to his worship.


Again, for someone who has read the bible so thoroughly, you’ve missed something very important here.  According to the same story you’re citing, it was not a “small subset” of people who were the cause of God’s decision to cause a flood.  Also, the Bible never mentions that the flood occurred because people didn’t “devote every waking moment to his worship“.  Let’s take a look at why the flood occurred.  


It was a small subset, because the only people that God ever talked about were Judeans.  What about the hundreds of thousands of other people on the planet that God never talked about.

   
Quote

     
Quote
The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.



'evil' huh?  So, every living person on the planet killed every other living thing on the planet?  

FtK, Does evil truly fix evil?  Do the ends justify the means?  

Is God moral?

Yeah, I don't think so.

   
Quote

     
Quote
Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.



By killing them all and sending them all to hell (even the babies, heck, you could have at least eaten them).

   
Quote


Believe it or don’t, but don’t twist the content.

     
Quote
Since he gave those creations free-will and they choose to use, He got pissed off and destroyed the planet.


He did.  He’s God....He can give and He can take.  We’re His Creation.  I would argue that what He did was a blessing to future generations.  


So why won't you eat the babies?

   
Quote


     
Quote
There are not a 'few' stories in the Bible that I would consider immoral... most of the Bible contains things I would consider immoral, which is freaking hilarious since I'm an atheist.


Interesting conclusion.  There is rarely a Sunday that goes by that I am not moved by our Pastor’s lectures with regard to scripture, and a large part of those lessons are in regard to our morality and how we should live.  ALL based on scripture.  I’m beginning to seriously doubt your familiarity with all of scripture.


So, your pastor skips that much of the Bible?  

Here's an interesting exercise for you. Pick up a cheap Bible and take to every church service you go to.  Highlight every verse that the preacher talks about.  Put a star by it the second and all subsequent times.

Do this for one year.

Now, examine closely how much of the Bible was NOT mentioned.

Now, again, you might be moved by the lovely stories of the Good Samaritan, the lost coin, the prodigal son, the friend at night, etc.  But these are all PARABLES!!  They didn't actually happen.  They are stories of how you should act... not things that actually happened.

   
Quote


     
Quote
And you do not want to argue about evolution FtK. It is transparently obvious that you do not have one single clue about what science, biology, or evolution is about.


I debated the scientific aspects of evolution for *years*, and it was more than obvious that this debate is comes down to ideology, religion, philosophy and worldview.



Bullshit.  I'll repeat, you don't know enough about it to accurately judge it.  You make massive errors everytime you talk about biology (and the Bible for that matter).

   
Quote
There is no getting around it, and it’s futile to negate that fact.  We’re debating gray areas of science.  Those who refuse to consider an ultimate Creator will lean one way with regard to the evidence we do have, and those who reject a Creator will hold to the opposite assumptions. You also need to be reminded that I don’t bring up the topic of religion, you folks do.  


Interesting.  A gray area of science is responsible for a variety of drugs that our society couldn't live without.  A gray area of science is responsible for helping feed everyone on this planet.  A gray area of science is saving lives all the time.

Yet, God does none of it.

   
Quote

     
Quote
Scripture does not make logical sense. In fact, by definition, faith is belief without evidence. Logic is a form of evidence. Faith MUST be illogical, otherwise it is simple to reject.


Untrue.  There are *endless* paths of evidence that lead to the logical conclusion that there is an ultimate designer.  Christianity also has an abundance of evidence to back it’s claims.  You reject that evidence.  Great...that’s your choice.  Faith does *not* have to be illogical.  Your own belief that life ultimately arose from nothing is certainly based on amount of faith.  Do you find that faith illogical?  Of course not, you follow evidence, as well as assumptions and speculation to come to this conclusion.


Bullshit.  Either something happened or it didn't.  Do you agree that one thing can either happen or not happen?

Of course you don't agree.  If you did, then you would have to admit that there are massive contradictions in the Bible (Matthre 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10 for example).

   
Quote
Quote

We are not using the same type of reasoning. You are using fallacious arguments. You are cherry-picking. You are using strawmen.


Back atcha, Love.


Wrong.  

I am using logic and actual facts.  You are using apologetics, which are mad eup stories to make gullible people feel better about their magic book.

I guess if you make up things and say 'that's what it means' you can say anything you want, but then, if you do that, you can't go claiming the Bible is inerrant can you?

Oh well...

Back to morality...

It's our society and people for the last 1800 years have used the Bible to support everything from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition.  It's that simple.

The Bible is not the source of our morality.  It is only a source for justification of what some people want to do (kill homosexuals for example).

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,21:33   

Ogre, I don't even know how to respond to your posts.  They seems so absurd to me that it's hard to fathom what is going on in your head.  I don't mean to be rude, I'm just saying that what we've read and how we view it is so entirely different that I have no idea how to even discuss the issues with you.  

Just for the record.  I've read every word of the Bible many times, as well as sat through a 2 year study that went through every word of the Bible.  My current Pastor encourages everyone to bring their Bible each Sunday as we go through several verses or chapters each week.  The next 12 weeks we will be covering the book of John.  I'm not Catholic, so maybe you're picturing something entirely different than what we hear each Sunday.  I've been a member of 6 different churches and visited many others.  It's impossible for me to understand how you can read scripture and come to the conclusions that you do.  It's as though you scan and pull out what you feel is repulsive and skim through the rest without a thought.  

So much of what you claim God commanded was actually stories telling about what happened to Biblical figures thoughout their life.  They made good choices, they made mistakes, they weren't perfect.  We learn from their history. That's the beauty of the Bible.  It's characters were far from perfect, which gives us hope as well.  

I'm sorry, but I don't get you. at all.

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,21:44   

Ftk, is it possible that you skim through the Bible and pick out what you want to?  Or is that something that only others do?  Seriously, the lack of introspection is astounding.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,21:52   

And FWIW, while you're here you might try responding to posts by actually addressing what they say.  It'll help; I promise.

For example.  In your last post you say that Ogre is taking stories and making them God's word.  What about Lot's daughters?  Story?  Or God's word?  Related point--how do we know God's words from stories?

You could start a discussion by answering these questions.  Then I would continue the discussion by addressing your new points.  Or you could do what you normally do (jellyfish, fossils, the eye, Behe, etc) and ignore anything you don't want to talk about and then claim that no one will have a discussion with you.

Be a big girl.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
the_ignored



Posts: 50
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2011,22:01   

Quote (Ftk @ Aug. 29 2011,21:33)
Ogre, I don't even know how to respond to your posts.  They seems so absurd to me that it's hard to fathom what is going on in your head.  I don't mean to be rude, I'm just saying that what we've read and how we view it is so entirely different that I have no idea how to even discuss the issues with you.  

Just for the record.  I've read every word of the Bible many times, as well as sat through a 2 year study that went through every word of the Bible.  My current Pastor encourages everyone to bring their Bible each Sunday as we go through several verses or chapters each week.  The next 12 weeks we will be covering the book of John.  I'm not Catholic, so maybe you're picturing something entirely different than what we hear each Sunday.  I've been a member of 6 different churches and visited many others.  It's impossible for me to understand how you can read scripture and come to the conclusions that you do.  It's as though you scan and pull out what you feel is repulsive and skim through the rest without a thought.  

So much of what you claim God commanded was actually stories telling about what happened to Biblical figures thoughout their life.  They made good choices, they made mistakes, they weren't perfect.  We learn from their history. That's the beauty of the Bible.  It's characters were far from perfect, which gives us hope as well.  

I'm sorry, but I don't get you. at all.

Thing is, Ftk is that SOME of those situations were commanded by your god (allegedly).  I am a non-believer after all.

Now, about us "skimming through the rest without a thought" after finding something that we don't like?  Please.

If one applied your reasoning to the actions of Hitler one could say that he only looks bad because his opponents "pulled out what was repulsive" and "skimmed through the rest without a thought".

Get the point yet?  Good actions do not cancel out the bad actions, not when a claim of perfect morality is being made.

  
  1157 replies since July 31 2008,17:11 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (39) < ... 29 30 31 32 33 [34] 35 36 37 38 39 ... >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]