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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 3, The Beast Marches On...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,05:50   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Aug. 29 2011,21:53)
In all seriousness, I've got to give Joe G a big "attaboy" for his responses to Barry Arrington's spelling-challenged  piece on why My God is Better than Your God.  Comments like this:
   
Quote
Have you read the Bible lately? Or ever? Physical violence has been an accepted (and even mandatory) course of action for the settlement of disputes about doctrine and belief.

Here Joe is pointing out that the God of the Bible has just as many homicidal temper tantrums as Allah.  

Not bad, Joe!  

At this moment, Joe reminds me of DaveScot in his occasional periods of lucidity.

Alas, he then goes and lets his freak flag fly:
 
Quote

9    mike1962    August 29, 2011 at 7:11 pm

Wait a minute. Didn’t the Christians get their worldview from the Jews? Why aren’t we lauding the Jewish worldview?
Log in to Reply
 
Quote

   9.1    Joseph     August 29, 2011 at 7:21 pm

   Well, the Christians corrected that worldview. Only the uncorrectable still hold to it


--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
k.e..



Posts: 2839
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,07:08   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Aug. 30 2011,13:50)
Quote (Hermagoras @ Aug. 29 2011,21:53)
In all seriousness, I've got to give Joe G a big "attaboy" for his responses to Barry Arrington's spelling-challenged  piece on why My God is Better than Your God.  Comments like this:
     
Quote
Have you read the Bible lately? Or ever? Physical violence has been an accepted (and even mandatory) course of action for the settlement of disputes about doctrine and belief.

Here Joe is pointing out that the God of the Bible has just as many homicidal temper tantrums as Allah.  

Not bad, Joe!  

At this moment, Joe reminds me of DaveScot in his occasional periods of lucidity.

Alas, he then goes and lets his freak flag fly:
   
Quote

9    mike1962    August 29, 2011 at 7:11 pm

Wait a minute. Didn’t the Christians get their worldview from the Jews? Why aren’t we lauding the Jewish worldview?
Log in to Reply
   
Quote

   9.1    Joseph     August 29, 2011 at 7:21 pm

   Well, the Christians corrected that worldview. Only the uncorrectable still hold to it

It's a pity for him Darwin wasn't a Jew, then he could use that stick too.

Thank Christ the Nazis exported "The Jewish Physics".

Joe you fucking GAY moron skin head  brown shirt.

*ETA Homophobia

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
sparc



Posts: 1675
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,07:59   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Aug. 28 2011,23:47)
O'Leary, a convert to Catholicism, discovers the reason for the Reformation:      
Quote
The this-worldly rewards of helping the sufferers are not always evident. Many priests died during the Black Death in Europe in the late 14th century, as a result of giving the last rites to sufferers. That had a major effect on the mediaeval Church: The committed priests died; the slackers who didn’t attend the dying lived. Scholars* think that fact played a role in hastening the corruption the resulted in the Reformation and the Counterreformation.

*ID scholars, that is.  Chiefly Gil Dodgen who states that it is obvious.  Ilion was trending in the same direction, but his opinion no longer counts since he grew tired of UD and voluntarily** stopped posting.

** Voluntarily under UD rules, that is.

O'Leary and the likes may explain the following question:
If there are protestant why there are still catholics?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
fnxtr



Posts: 2090
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,08:31   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Aug. 30 2011,03:50)
Quote (Hermagoras @ Aug. 29 2011,21:53)
In all seriousness, I've got to give Joe G a big "attaboy" for his responses to Barry Arrington's spelling-challenged  piece on why My God is Better than Your God.  Comments like this:
   
Quote
Have you read the Bible lately? Or ever? Physical violence has been an accepted (and even mandatory) course of action for the settlement of disputes about doctrine and belief.

Here Joe is pointing out that the God of the Bible has just as many homicidal temper tantrums as Allah.  

Not bad, Joe!  

At this moment, Joe reminds me of DaveScot in his occasional periods of lucidity.

Alas, he then goes and lets his freak flag fly:
 
Quote

9    mike1962    August 29, 2011 at 7:11 pm

Wait a minute. Didn’t the Christians get their worldview from the Jews? Why aren’t we lauding the Jewish worldview?
Log in to Reply
 
Quote

   9.1    Joseph     August 29, 2011 at 7:21 pm

   Well, the Christians corrected that worldview. Only the uncorrectable still hold to it

Waitaminit, isn't Joe constantly insisting he's not religious?

"Well, I'm not, but if I were," says Muslim Joe, "it'd be the right religion."  

Right, Joe?

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
k.e..



Posts: 2839
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,08:53   

Quote (sparc @ Aug. 30 2011,15:59)
Quote (CeilingCat @ Aug. 28 2011,23:47)
O'Leary, a convert to Catholicism, discovers the reason for the Reformation:        
Quote
The this-worldly rewards of helping the sufferers are not always evident. Many priests died during the Black Death in Europe in the late 14th century, as a result of giving the last rites to sufferers. That had a major effect on the mediaeval Church: The committed priests died; the slackers who didn’t attend the dying lived. Scholars* think that fact played a role in hastening the corruption the resulted in the Reformation and the Counterreformation.

*ID scholars, that is.  Chiefly Gil Dodgen who states that it is obvious.  Ilion was trending in the same direction, but his opinion no longer counts since he grew tired of UD and voluntarily** stopped posting.

** Voluntarily under UD rules, that is.

O'Leary and the likes may explain the following question:
If there are protestant why there are still catholics?

Huh, that's easy.

When the rapture comes like a whale. The Catholics are still included.

And since cordwood these days seems to be growing freely in Palestine despite the imminent return of a certain person BAs look at that manual as if an extraterrestrial wrote it from fact.

Those ones that will really get the chop if they don't convert immediatly are of course the tree of 1/2 the sons of Abraham.

The other half have only sliced the scimitar once 10 years ago in Manhatten.

The next will come from inside the dungeons of Persia.

Come forward Shem and Shaun. (google that neophites)

One a traveling mass debator and the other a fluid dynamics stimulator.

Cowards in glass castles.

One a neologist the other a glory hole in a cubicle.

The only question ID can answer is how many levels does Hell have?

...and even then their math would be nonexistant containing only 3 letters stolen from a TV cop show.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,09:40   

Quote
I’ve used his CSI metric to empirically differentiate my behavior from that of AIs, so I wouldn’t consider it a specious metric. Yes, it is often difficult to apply, but that is more a problem of practice than a problem with the metric itself.

If you are interested in my application of CSI, let me know. My work currently needs some cleaning up, but if enough people show interest I will indeed clean it up and post it at some point.




Someone let him know. Where are  Elizabeth and Patrick?

Link

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 879
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,11:02   

Quote (sparc @ Aug. 31 2011,00:59)
O'Leary and the likes may explain the following question:
If there are protestant why there are still catholics?

I'm currently on vacation in lovely, lovely Prague. Being a first time visitor I took a sightseeing tour yesterday, which included Prague Castle. Our guide explained the ubiquitous religiously artistry to us: 'We used to be a Catholic (pronounced cat-lick) country but we aren't any more (implication was that after many tumultous events the people are free of oppression). In fact we are not really religious at all; only about 5% of people go to church at all.'
And you know - I actually thought of Dense when I heard that.

--------------
“To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.” - Isaac Asimov

"Grow up, assface" - Joe G., grown up ID spokesperson, Sandwalk, April 2014

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,11:23   

Take away force, and maybe 45% of people will be churchgoers. Take away the social benefits, and the number will drop even more.

There really isn't anything to match the benefits for parents of small children, and for the elderly.

My son was married at the Brooklyn Society for Ethical Culture. Beautiful building, but not much evidence of heavy use, other than for ceremonies.

I think there must be something built into human psyche that links societal cohesion to shared memes and conflict with foreign tribes.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,12:05   

Now Eric is going after chemistry.

 
Quote
Yeah, that is a good one. One angle I’ve come up with so far is the idea of self organization within chemistry. According to ID, there isn’t really such a thing as self organization, since the information for the “emergent” structures is already implicit in the original chemical state. So, at the very least, it is a good caution for chemists to not put any stock in the concept of self organization.
Link

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,12:13   

Will by all means if emergent properties are implicit in chemistry, lets see the laws that allow one to predict them.

Start with H2O.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,13:37   

Quote (JLT @ Aug. 30 2011,18:05)
Now Eric is going after chemistry.

 
Quote
Yeah, that is a good one. One angle I’ve come up with so far is the idea of self organization within chemistry. According to ID, there isn’t really such a thing as self organization, since the information for the “emergent” structures is already implicit in the original chemical state. So, at the very least, it is a good caution for chemists to not put any stock in the concept of self organization.
Link

{Faints}

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,13:49   

ID goes art critic.

Quote
I gave a talk at the beginning of this year to a group of students at Biola University [1].  In the talk I described just how revolutionary ID is compared to the current scientific paradigm of chance and necessity.  But, such a talk is likely to go over students heads if there aren’t concrete examples.  How could I show them everyday instances of intelligent agents creating information? [...]

For instance, part of what makes a great work of art so great is that it is a unified integration of a very large number of very carefully crafted parts, often integrated to such a degree that they join together seamlessly.  On the other hand, when elements are just jumbled together our instinctive reaction is that the “art” is a load of junk, regardless of whether some conniving artist has been able to defraud the government of our tax dollars.  Perhaps ID can help us define good art here?


Eric

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,15:38   

Quote (JLT @ Aug. 30 2011,13:49)
ID goes art critic.

 
Quote
I gave a talk at the beginning of this year to a group of students at Biola University [1].  In the talk I described just how revolutionary ID is compared to the current scientific paradigm of chance and necessity.  But, such a talk is likely to go over students heads if there aren’t concrete examples.  How could I show them everyday instances of intelligent agents creating information? [...]

For instance, part of what makes a great work of art so great is that it is a unified integration of a very large number of very carefully crafted parts, often integrated to such a degree that they join together seamlessly.  On the other hand, when elements are just jumbled together our instinctive reaction is that the “art” is a load of junk, regardless of whether some conniving artist has been able to defraud the government of our tax dollars.  Perhaps ID can help us define good art here?


Eric

Actually, great art is a lot like CSI.  They know when they see it, just don't ask them to explain it.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
olegt



Posts: 1378
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,16:28   

Torley makes an argument for the theory of intelligent falling. I am not kidding:

Quote
What is the upshot for science? If you’re a concurrentist, you will believe that God is free; He can switch off His co-operation with any causal agent, any time He wants to. This is what He did for the three young men in the fiery furnace (see Daniel 3): the fire retained its inherent disposition to burn, but because God refrained from co-operating with it in His normal way, the fire was powerless to burn the young men. Even when God does this, however, causal agents (e.g. fire) retain their inherent dispositions, which spring from their nature. Thus God can stop an apple from falling down by refusing to co-operate with the Earth’s attractive force of gravity, but He cannot change the law of gravity tomorrow and command apples to subsequently fall up. Gravity is inherently attractive; to make the Earth repel apples instead of attracting them, God would have to literally destroy the Earth and replace it with a new kind of entity – maybe one possessing negative mass. Concurrentism, then, allows God to suspend the normal course of events, but He cannot change the nature of a thing while keeping it the same thing. Apples cannot fall down today and up tomorrow.

Occasionalism is very big on God’s absolute liberty. The Earth, on the occasionalist view, doesn’t make apples fall; God and God alone does. And if God wants apples to fall down on Tuesday and up on Wednesday, who’s to stop Him?


Linky


It's hard to believe, I know, but this is truly Poe's law in action.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,18:07   

Quote (olegt @ Aug. 30 2011,22:28)
Torley makes an argument for the theory of intelligent falling. I am not kidding:

   
Quote
What is the upshot for science? If you’re a concurrentist, you will believe that God is free; He can switch off His co-operation with any causal agent, any time He wants to. This is what He did for the three young men in the fiery furnace (see Daniel 3): the fire retained its inherent disposition to burn, but because God refrained from co-operating with it in His normal way, the fire was powerless to burn the young men. Even when God does this, however, causal agents (e.g. fire) retain their inherent dispositions, which spring from their nature. Thus God can stop an apple from falling down by refusing to co-operate with the Earth’s attractive force of gravity, but He cannot change the law of gravity tomorrow and command apples to subsequently fall up. Gravity is inherently attractive; to make the Earth repel apples instead of attracting them, God would have to literally destroy the Earth and replace it with a new kind of entity – maybe one possessing negative mass. Concurrentism, then, allows God to suspend the normal course of events, but He cannot change the nature of a thing while keeping it the same thing. Apples cannot fall down today and up tomorrow.

Occasionalism is very big on God’s absolute liberty. The Earth, on the occasionalist view, doesn’t make apples fall; God and God alone does. And if God wants apples to fall down on Tuesday and up on Wednesday, who’s to stop Him?


Linky


It's hard to believe, I know, but this is truly Poe's law in action.

I think he's explaining the views of medieval Muslims rather than his own.
 
Quote
What it boils down to is three views of Divine causality: conservationism, concurrentism and occasionalism. Darwinist Christians adopt the first view; medieval Christians (with very few exceptions) adopted the second; medieval Muslim philosophers adopted the third. (A few Christian philosophers have defended this view, as well.) Here are the views, in a nutshell.

Although intelligent design essentially is intelligent falling, design is the apple falling up with God's help.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3550
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,18:51   

They seem awfully sure that they know what god can and cannot do. Even though they contradict each other.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,20:51   

KF seems a little bit upset. Apparently, the guy from The IDiots of Intelligent Design has asked for photos of some of the UD regulars.
For what it's worth, I think that is a tad creepy. If it were the other way around, if someone from UD would search around for a picture of me, I wouldn't like that, either.
But KF goes into complete paranoia overdrive and out the other side. In less than 36 hours he wrote at least 7 increasingly hysterical comments, in which for example he's more or less accusing dmullenix of inducing others to violence:
 
Quote
And, given the recent example of Breivik, and the matters that have come up in this thread from here on, I think DM and others of like ilk who resort to moral monster and theocracy accusation rhetoric or the like, should pause and think very carefully indeed on what the more unhinged on their side of the fence may be tempted to through such intemperate and irresponsible rhetoric.

DM's "moral monster":
 
Quote
 
Quote
7: “(iii) but it is impossible that the God of the Bible could exist, because He is a “moral monster”;
(iv) hence, the cosmological fine-tuning argument is not true.
This is a pathological form of reasoning, since it is emotionally driven by a visceral dislike of the God of the Bible. Nevertheless, I believe this form of reasoning is quite common among atheists.”


Not really. The Bible does make God out to be a moral monster – dooming humanity because of the sins of the first two humans, killing everybody on earth save eight because of the Hitlerian claim that they were all evil, hardening Pharaoh’s heart so He could continue to torment Egypt in order to show off His powers, punishing David for seducing Bathsheba and murdering her husband by killing their baby, finding Himself somehow unable to forgive the human race until He’d had His own Son tortured to death – but atheists tend not to believe the Bible. Personally, I think the only thing God could really be blamed for in the above list is killing the baby. The Fall, the Flood and the Exodus are mythical.

Our objections are based on the universe as we find it. It’s about what we’d expect if materialism is true – but if it was DESIGNED, then there is a DESIGNER and that designer truly is a moral monster. Why Christians want to blame this universe on your God is beyond me.

So, the moral monster DM talks about (and which is a quote from the OP) is the designer, if he existed. If we follow KF's "logic", the unhinged among us should now want to kill god. On the other hand, we that we have "no defence against Nietzschean nihilism" know that God is already dead, so that doesn't seem to be very likely.

Some more choice bits from KF's comments, just to see who's using the "intemperate and irresponsible" rethoricising...
 
Quote
I am taking this opportunity, in one of the leading ID blogs, to say that there is an ugly, potentially dangerous side to the objection to ID movement, and it is high time that responsible people on that side who have more direct access to the sort of individuals in view, took time to police them.

Before something horrible happens.

And if you are tempted to dismiss this, jut think about names like Harris, Klebold and Brevik, among others. What I am seeing above is target-painting behaviour, and it is beyond any reasonable or responsible behaviour on this topic.

Link
 
Quote
Thanks for the alert.

TARGETTING BEHAVIOUR, JOINED TO THE SORT OF PROJECTION OF WANTING TO “TAKE OVER” THE WORLD (GUESS WHO ARE THEREBY INADVERTENTLY CONFESSING TO ALREADY CONTROLLING THE WORLD BY ASSOCIATION WITH THE HIGH PRIESTHOOD OF MATERIALIST/”RATIONAL[IST]” SCIENTISTS . . .), IN THE HANDS OF THE EXCESSIVELY ANGRY AND NIHILISTIC, IS QUITE DANGEROUS.

We are only just beginning to learn some of the dangers of a webbed world.

Breivik should be a lesson, and a clear warning of what can be going on on the fringes. So let us resolve not to foment hate or dehumanise and demonise the “other.”

 
Quote
It is not only design thinkers who need to address this, those who lead the anti-ID movement, if they are at all responsible, must police their own movement and clean up their act. Before further abuse, or violence or bloodshed comes of it.

 
Quote
In this context, the moral monster talking point Dr Torley highlighted in the original post is particularly irresponsible. When the advocates who use it are themselves rooted in a worldview, evo mat, that has in it no IS that can ground OUGHT, thus no defence against Nietzschean nihilism, then there is a dilemma.
Link
 
Quote
These are the challenges that promoters of atheistical, angry, evolutionary materialism that holds science hostage as an a priori, would distract us from by focussing ill-deserved outrage elsewhere through unjust, strawmannish caricatures.

So, it is high time that we held such accountable for their wanton arguments and willfully mischievous, hostility-stirring slanderous misbehaviour and blatant painting of targets on those they object to.
Link
 
Quote
Namely, through willful misrepresentation, demonisation and unhinged hostility that is now seeing itself as justified in painting targets on people’s backs.

This must stop.

NOW.

And, abusing the general consensus on morality to try to push God in the dock through willful scripture-twisting [the correctives are there for all to find, if they have even a modicum of good will] thence those who seek to adhere to him, is wrong.

To demonise and then take opportunity of so dehumanising the other, to play at outing individuals, their families and locations, then now posting up mug shorts, the better to guide the unhinges who might want to do violence, is inexcusable.[...]
Have we learned anything from Breivik and all the way back to Columbine?
Link

Oh, looky here, now KF accuses MarkF of enabling the guy, presumably by not having precognition.  
Quote
But, as a first note, before dealing later on with specifics, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT THIS THREAD’S DISCUSSION IS IN THE DIRECT CONTEXT OF FURTHER TARGET PAINTING BEHAVIOUR BY SOMEONE WHO WAS BASED AT YOUR BLOG AS A REGULAR COMMENTER, AND WHO WENT ON TO FOUND THE HATE BLOG THAT HAS AGAIN COME UP FOR CONCERN HERE AT UD.

I think that puts a particular burden on those on you4r side of the ID debate, to police those who are on the unhinged extremism side. For they are unwilling to listen to correction from those on our side.
Link  
Quote
In my case, some one out there is targetting me, is falsely accusing me of child abuse, is saying menacingly “we know you, we know where you are, we know those you care for,” and is now backing this up by posting pictures — talk about targetting!

And, with further false accusations.

Someone who was coddled at MF’s site, and not restrained before he went utterly out of control.

At the same time, we see outright declarations that the God of the Bible is a moral monster, and those who follow him are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked would-be tyrannical Christo-fascist theocrats and child abusers.

It's all Dawkins fault:
 
Quote
Plainly, some one out there — Dawkins and ilk — thinks he can smear people and build up morally driven rage against them by appealing to precisely the moral absolutes that he denies when they would cut in ways that he does not want.
[...]
The end of such a pattern is predictable on all too much history: violence and blood as ruthless nihilist factions vie for power, and worse, if they gain it.
[...]
Just ask the ghosts of 100 million victims of evolutionary materialist tyrannies over the past 100 years.
Link  
Quote
The evolutionary materialists, from 400 BC on, have always begun with chaos in the heavens that is imagined to somehow give rise to the things that are ordered, and this leads them to radical relativism and might makes “right” amorality. Thence come factions and from factions come chaos in the community, and tyranny.

But always, it is ever so hard to believe that things are that bad in our time and place, until the horrors are let lose with full force.
 
Quote
But, we had better believe the magnitude of the danger in front of us, the depth of the moral bankruptcy and anarchy that have been revealed before our watching eyes and take decisive, grimly determined resolute, corrective action.

Now.

Before it is horribly, bloodily too late.
Link

Just read that again: But, we had better believe the magnitude of the danger in front of us, the depth of the moral bankruptcy and anarchy that have been revealed before our watching eyes and take decisive, grimly determined resolute, corrective action.

There you have it. KF WANTS TO KILL US ALL!

Oh, wait, I'm not the paranoid whackjob here.

Seriously, though, who is demonising whom, again?

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1653
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,23:14   

Quote (Louis @ Aug. 30 2011,13:37)
 
Quote (JLT @ Aug. 30 2011,18:05)
Now Eric is going after chemistry.

     
Quote
Yeah, that is a good one. One angle I’ve come up with so far is the idea of self organization within chemistry. According to ID, there isn’t really such a thing as self organization, since the information for the “emergent” structures is already implicit in the original chemical state. So, at the very least, it is a good caution for chemists to not put any stock in the concept of self organization.
Link

{Faints}

Louis

POTW!

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.   Edward Feser

‘Anything is a “real possibility” in the mind of one seeking to deny the obvious.’ – William J Murray

  
sparc



Posts: 1675
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2011,23:22   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Aug. 30 2011,23:14)
Quote (Louis @ Aug. 30 2011,13:37)
 
Quote (JLT @ Aug. 30 2011,18:05)
Now Eric is going after chemistry.

     
Quote
Yeah, that is a good one. One angle I’ve come up with so far is the idea of self organization within chemistry. According to ID, there isn’t really such a thing as self organization, since the information for the “emergent” structures is already implicit in the original chemical state. So, at the very least, it is a good caution for chemists to not put any stock in the concept of self organization.
Link

{Faints}

Louis

POTW!

Holloway's expertise seems BS carpet bombing. Still, don't the US Air Force or at least the Air Force Academy care about science?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,02:58   

Gil:
Quote
Irreducible complexity is the “nature” of things. It is everywhere to be found in the laws of physics, and even more obviously to be found in biological systems. IC is the rule, not the exception.


So now the laws of physics are IC. Can't wait for Dover II.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,03:02   

Gordo is asked:
Quote
In what form would “decisive, grimly determined resolute, corrective action” take? Any specifics?

Link.

And I say the more worked up and paranoid Gordo gets the better. He loves all of this, it gives him exactly the excuse he needs to claim persecution. As a matter of fact I'm thinking about starting a project that'll make him wet himself when he hears. Not aimed at Gordo in particular, oh no, but he'll act as if it is.....

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,03:18   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Aug. 31 2011,05:14)
Quote (Louis @ Aug. 30 2011,13:37)
 
Quote (JLT @ Aug. 30 2011,18:05)
Now Eric is going after chemistry.

     
Quote
Yeah, that is a good one. One angle I’ve come up with so far is the idea of self organization within chemistry. According to ID, there isn’t really such a thing as self organization, since the information for the “emergent” structures is already implicit in the original chemical state. So, at the very least, it is a good caution for chemists to not put any stock in the concept of self organization.
Link

{Faints}

Louis

POTW!

Thanks!

That is a case of mind bending fractal wrongness. I mean where, just WHERE, do you start with that claim? It's so incredibly wrong on every level that it's causing me physical pain.

Apart from the usual questions like "where's the information stored?" and "how are you measuring that?" that stump IDCists so they get all sweaty, there are far bigger issues to overcome with this piece of ass-hattery.

Take one of my favourite examples, the Soai reaction. I'd love an IDCist to tell me where the asymmetric information is coming from, i.e. where it's pre-stored. Hell, that might be too complicated, let's go simpler. Where's the structure of a snowflake encoded into a molecule of water? Where are phonons in the molecules that make up a crystal lattice before they have formed a lattice? Where's the 3D structure of a protein in a molecule of alanine?

Bear in mind, IDCists and their ilk, I'm not asking what chemical properties affect the formation of these more complex items, that I know and that everyone knows, but claiming that there is information encoded/implicit in the original chemical state is a very VERY different claim. What is that chemical state, for example? The rotational energy of the molecule? Its electronic configuration? Its temperature? All of them? None of them?

GAH these horseshit peddlers are annoying. Bring on KF's bloodbath, at least that will provide light relief.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,04:49   

ID in a nutshell:
Quote
If there is an Intelligent Designer, He presumably favors mathematical elegance

And beetles too. He likes beetles.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1653
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,04:54   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Aug. 31 2011,04:49)
ID in a nutshell:
   
Quote
If there is an Intelligent Designer, He presumably favors mathematical elegance

And beetles too. He likes beetles.

You can usually tell when things are going badly in an ID topic because they fork it.  That lets them start over while hiding their shame.

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.   Edward Feser

‘Anything is a “real possibility” in the mind of one seeking to deny the obvious.’ – William J Murray

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1653
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,06:32   

I just typed kairosfocus into google and selected images.  First hit?  What looks like a tee shirt that says,

Quote
Too stupid to understand science?

TRY RELIGION!


If you search for Gordon Mullings and select Web, the first thing that pops up is the KairosFocus web site.

Klown of the Karribean.

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.   Edward Feser

‘Anything is a “real possibility” in the mind of one seeking to deny the obvious.’ – William J Murray

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,06:41   

Gordo:

   
Quote
(And, BTW, the captioned picture just above is taken from a targetting photo — we know you, we know where you are, we know those you care for, and here’s the targetting picture –  hosted by a hate-blog that personally attacks and slanders contributors and commenters at UD. Those who are pushing such talking points need to pause and ask themselves as a first point of correction, how comes “fascism” is a right-wing movement, when its worst manifestation bore the title, National SOCIALISM? Do you now begin to  see how — suspiciously –things do not add up here? )


What, you mean this picture?

EDIT: Picture removed

But that was obviously taken at a public event and you were happy to stand up and get your picture taken.

But now because somebody you disagree with is using it it's now a "targetting picture"?

Hardly.

If you've got such an issue Gordon with pictures being taken of yourself then perhaps you should STOP POSING FOR THEM!

EDIT: Picture removed.

EDIT: Picture removed.

EDIT: Link removed.

All edits by me.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1653
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,06:42   

Looks like dmullenix has replied to kairosflatus:  
Quote
Regarding Breivik. Is reminding us of a right-wing Christian who murdered five dozen liberal teenagers supposed to intimidate me?

You’re from Jamaica originally, aren’t you? I vacationed in Ocho Rios a couple of decades ago and I remember the guide proudly telling us that Jamaica has more churches per capita than any other country in the world. Is this true?

I also noticed that I couldn’t find a newspaper at the hotel we stayed at and an employee told me that the manager didn’t allow them to be sold there. When I found one downtown, I saw why.

Would you like to comment on the murder rates for ultra-Christian Jamaica, excessively Christian America and Breivik’s relatively non-Christian Norway?

According to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki.......de_rate

the murder rates per 100,000 for the three countries are:

Jamaica 60 per 100,000

US 5.0 per 100,000

Norway 0.6 per 100,000

Do you have any explanation for why ultra-religious Jamaica’s murder rate is 12 times higher than merely super religious America’s which in turn is 8 times higher than nearly atheistic Norway’s?

I doubt if it’s guns. They’re nearly totally illegal in Jamaica and the US and Norway are both awash in firearms. I doubt it it’s poverty – Norway and America are about tied here. I doubt if it’s language or legal traditions. Jamaica and America are both scions of Great Britain.

What differences are there between these three countries aside from their religiosity.

I’m going to stop now before you heed the command of Jesus as quoted in Luke 19:27 and get a gun and come looking for me, but before I do I want to say that nobody on this blog whines about “oil of ad hominems”, “strawmen caricatures”, “distractive red herrings”, “willful misrepresentation, hostility and target-painting “ and “incendiary rhetoric” as much as you do and nobody holds a candle to you when it comes to indulging in those practices.

F/N Luke 19:27 “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.”


The link goes to a wikipedia article on Homicides by country.  Very informative.

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.   Edward Feser

‘Anything is a “real possibility” in the mind of one seeking to deny the obvious.’ – William J Murray

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,07:25   

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Regardless of how unpleasant the "opposition" is, I find all this mild tracking them down in real life and identifying them a little tasteless. Just a personal opinion, not binding on anyone else.

Sure KF's super dooper secret identity is about as super secret as the fact that Rich does things to sheep, but I dunno, it all makes me feel a little....bleurgh. Perhaps I'm getting all prudish and weird in my old age, and I admit this might be my limitation, but I guess I just don't take these guys seriously enough to care that much. Sure they annoy me, sure I'll oppose their real life efforts, but I'm comfortable letting them remain pseud/anonymous in their "Being Wrong On The Internet", however incompetently they do both argument and anonymity.

The guy wants to remain pseudonymous from what I remember, I can live with it as long as his horseshit stays where it belongs, i.e. on the internet. Should he start trying to harass people in real life in some personal way (as opposed to simply having his own religious foundation or something, or being involved in missionary work/activism, or just doing something I don't like) by outing other people or what have you, then perhaps that's different. But really in any situation in which he doesn't do that is just yet another instance of these fulminating IDCists being full of sound and fury and fuck all else. We could, after all, take the high ground, in the majority of applicable cases.

I seem to remember KF does try to out people or advocate it, I could be wrong about that too, and thus via some spurious reason "deserves" it (I still don't agree with it). An email to the guy with his every detail should suffice, why stoop to his level when there's no need?

We all know the guy's an incompetent babbling whack job, his every word demonstrates it. Do we really need to do any more than pick apart his shitty "arguments" and mock him roundly? Aren't we better than the IDCists in this regard? Why enter in to their world on their terms?

I know voicing my disagreement on this is likely to be unpopular, it's pretty mild disagreement based more on personal taste than anything, so I'm not being unpleasant (I hope) to you Oldman, or indeed anyone, especially as I'm sure I've crossed the line myself in the past. That's not my intent or desire. Rather can't we just think of better ways to illustrate this crank's foolishness, posting pics of the guy when he's asked not to be identified (regardless of his own hypocrisy) seems to be a little.....I'm struggling for the right word....well it just makes me uncomfortable is all. Like I said, probably my own issue and certainly not binding on anyone else.

Rambling gut feelings over.

Louis

P.S. Incidentally, because I think this is relevant to Mabus and what not. PZ et al did the right thing by contacting the police, I'm not sure they did the right thing by blogging about it...although it does seem that without e-harassment the police would have done sod all. Perhaps in the Mabus case the right thing to do was to identify him and have him dealt with officially as they did, death threats are death threats after all. Is KF in the same league? Or is he just another elderly paranoid religious whackjob that infests the web? From thousands of miles away I guess I can afford to be sanguine, I'd probably think differently if I lived next door.

--------------
Bye.

  
BillB



Posts: 354
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,07:39   

Quote (Louis @ Aug. 31 2011,13:25)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Regardless of how unpleasant the "opposition" is, I find all this mild tracking them down in real life and identifying them a little tasteless. Just a personal opinion, not binding on anyone else.

Sure KF's super dooper secret identity is about as super secret as the fact that Rich does things to sheep, but I dunno, it all makes me feel a little....bleurgh. Perhaps I'm getting all prudish and weird in my old age, and I admit this might be my limitation, but I guess I just don't take these guys seriously enough to care that much. Sure they annoy me, sure I'll oppose their real life efforts, but I'm comfortable letting them remain pseud/anonymous in their "Being Wrong On The Internet", however incompetently they do both argument and anonymity.

The guy wants to remain pseudonymous from what I remember, I can live with it as long as his horseshit stays where it belongs, i.e. on the internet. Should he start trying to harass people in real life in some personal way (as opposed to simply having his own religious foundation or something, or being involved in missionary work/activism, or just doing something I don't like) by outing other people or what have you, then perhaps that's different. But really in any situation in which he doesn't do that is just yet another instance of these fulminating IDCists being full of sound and fury and fuck all else. We could, after all, take the high ground, in the majority of applicable cases.

I seem to remember KF does try to out people or advocate it, I could be wrong about that too, and thus via some spurious reason "deserves" it (I still don't agree with it). An email to the guy with his every detail should suffice, why stoop to his level when there's no need?

We all know the guy's an incompetent babbling whack job, his every word demonstrates it. Do we really need to do any more than pick apart his shitty "arguments" and mock him roundly? Aren't we better than the IDCists in this regard? Why enter in to their world on their terms?

I know voicing my disagreement on this is likely to be unpopular, it's pretty mild disagreement based more on personal taste than anything, so I'm not being unpleasant (I hope) to you Oldman, or indeed anyone, especially as I'm sure I've crossed the line myself in the past. That's not my intent or desire. Rather can't we just think of better ways to illustrate this crank's foolishness, posting pics of the guy when he's asked not to be identified (regardless of his own hypocrisy) seems to be a little.....I'm struggling for the right word....well it just makes me uncomfortable is all. Like I said, probably my own issue and certainly not binding on anyone else.

Rambling gut feelings over.

Louis

P.S. Incidentally, because I think this is relevant to Mabus and what not. PZ et al did the right thing by contacting the police, I'm not sure they did the right thing by blogging about it...although it does seem that without e-harassment the police would have done sod all. Perhaps in the Mabus case the right thing to do was to identify him and have him dealt with officially as they did, death threats are death threats after all. Is KF in the same league? Or is he just another elderly paranoid religious whackjob that infests the web? From thousands of miles away I guess I can afford to be sanguine, I'd probably think differently if I lived next door.

I agree.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2011,07:42   

In a Perfect World, after The Baby Jesus comes back to save us all, Mabus would go after Gordon E Mullings of Montserrat, and Gordo would be hurling online oil-filled attacks at Mabus.

And Gil would calculate the CSI of FTK's bible quotes, while Barry A sued himself for excessive stupidity.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
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