Joined: Jan. 2006
|Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Nov. 30 2011,02:28)|
|Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 30 2011,11:21)|
|I think there is an interesting conversation to be had here once we're all done bashing PZ (deserved or not). Someone give me a head's up if/when that happens?|
I'm not bashing him much [anymore]. A constructive discussion about tactics and fairness among atheists would be hugely great*.
*Redundancy, I haz it!
As soon as his current approach, including the discovery of fundamentalist atheism and sanctioned hate speech are in fact universally condemned as inciting hate and promoting dehumanization as a tactic in a culture war which has become increasingly defined by insane and insulated academics, i agree.
Education is a process and talking about how it ought to go forward should include the various ways people learn. But it should also include the various things people learn. And it should not exclude an in group from the requirement to learn. In the future, wrong information which bubbles up into the zeitgeist probably wont need a culture war to change it. At least, if it does, perhaps we as a community will recognize that a psychophantic group led by a leader as deity such as happened with pz is to be considered a failure in the overall effort. Not that they didnt start with good intentions or that they arent perfectly nice outside of the cult, but that the cult was a mistake. That the object is not to organize a competing truth to ram down the population's throat but to insert information into the zeitgeist and let the magic happen naturally.
Reminder. In dover, the creos lost because they failed to compete with the information presented.
When a dembski or pz or other form of leader emerges with wingnut ideas and moneterizing hate, their claims should be immediately challened just as was done to id. Id id now a joke and in fact you all played a significant role.
Maybe it was easy to ignore pz because he started out with the same enemy. But it isnt beliefs that cause the problems. Its actions. No one gets a free pass to claim a monopoly on truth. There is better and worse information but not an exaltable class who hold this truth and an untouchable class who doesnt. Whether theist to atheist or vice versa. And now i hope that using their own words, everyone realized that they dont mean simply 'not believe in god.' and that they clearly have a holy book, fundamental doctrines, and just like fundies of any stripe, the book doesnt justify their beliefs and yet the cite its authority.
Once its agreed that pzs path is unacceptable, then we need a discussion. That discussion could sift through the parts of his church to look for usable bits, after all he is a pretty smart guy regarding science,one of the disciplines involved in a good education.
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far
The Daily Wingnut