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Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 20 2007,21:40   

we already covered the issue of mimicry in the other thread Vmartin embarassed himself in last year.

just fyi.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 20 2007,23:04   

Oh - no point mimicking an old thread here, huh?

Henry

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,12:40   

Henry

Quote

Given the huge number of species in the insect order, why is it all that unlikely that there'd be a few that happen to somewhat resemble an unpalatable species?


Do you think that the following case of polymorphic case of butterfly mimicry also "happen" in accordance with statistics and probability? I would like to notice you that on the right sight are females of the same species:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/taxome/jim/Mim2/dardanus.html

Of course darwinists here will suppose that Natural selection is responsible for such a striking similarities. Obviously even neodarwinian  explanation of the phenomena have to resort to saltationism to be somehow plausible. Look at neodarwinian newspeak for saltationism, hehe -


"Initial step in the evolution of mimicry is likely to have been due to a genetic effect of large magnitude".



http://www.nbb.cornell.edu/neurobio/BioNB420/Dardanus2003.pdf

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,12:44   

V, please don't tell me you're avoiding our questions!

To remind you:

You said this:

   
Quote
The Evolution is directed process. It is following a scenario.


So we are asking you, allowing for your requested change in verb tenses:

     
Quote

Who directed it, and what exactly was the 'scenario'?


C'mon, pal, you can tell us! This is basically the VMartin thread by now... Don't let us think that you're one of those weaselly Creationists who spends all his time whining about 'Darwinism', yet who dodges tough questions!

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,13:57   

A.Fox

Quote

This story may interest you VMartin. There is a considerable  amount of research being directed to establishing the role of non-coding DNA, which may be a more fruitful approach than mere speculation.


Thank you - but the link is blocked. I suppose that this is the same article:
junk dna

It is interesting you are right. The next to the last sentence from the article about "junk RNA":


We don't think they're produced by accident," he says.


If "junk" RNA is not produced by accident then
"junk" DNA is consequently also not produced by accident, don't you think?

But it is interesting that darwinian scientists having not enough knowledge of the problem in previous years claimed that DNA is junk. They have never admited that "we don't know". Having not enough knowledge they always claim a problem doesn't exist.

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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,14:05   

Come ON, V, you can do it!!

To remind you, AGAIN:

You said this:

       
Quote
The Evolution is directed process. It is following a scenario.


So we are asking you, allowing for your requested change in verb tenses:

         
Quote

Who directed it, and what exactly was the 'scenario'?


What's the matter V, you can certainly back up YOUR OWN STATEMENTS, can't you???

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1373
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,16:48   

VMartin:

Thank you for your response.

     
Quote
I suppose that this is the same article


Indeed, your link is to the New Scientist review that discusses the article I referred to. Unfortunately, it is only available via subscription.

     
Quote
But it is interesting that darwinian scientists having not enough knowledge of the problem in previous years claimed that DNA is junk.


It is not my recollection of events. "Junk DNA" was just a snappy title that stuck. I don't recall any scientist "claiming" DNA to be junk, just that the function of non-coding DNA was unknown, thus allowing speculation about its significance.

     
Quote
If "junk" RNA is not produced by accident then
"junk" DNA is consequently also not produced by accident, don't you think?


Not 100% sure what you are driving at here, but if you are suggesting some spirit force was directing events, you would need to support that idea with some evidence if you want anyone to take you seriously.

I understand you were once a Marxist, and are now disenchanted. Given how events have unfolded in the former Communist states of Eastern Europe, I am not surprised, but consider, do you not conflate Marxism, atheism and "Darwinism" as tools of state control, and the revival of Catholicism in the wake of the retreat of Soviet control has induced this somewhat  hysterical reaction to current evolutionary biology?

  
Henry J



Posts: 4098
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2007,21:49   

Quote
Do you think that the following case of polymorphic case of butterfly mimicry also "happen" in accordance with statistics and probability? I would like to notice you that on the right sight are females of the same species:


My understanding is that the resemblance would most likely be very superficial initially, and would be fine tuned later due to selection effects (i.e., the ones least resembling the toxic critter would get eaten first, repeatedly over many generations). It's the superficial resemblances that I'd think wouldn't be all that unlikely given a large number of species in the same class.

Henry

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,10:38   

Quote

I understand you were once a Marxist, and are now disenchanted. Given how events have unfolded in the former Communist states of Eastern Europe, I am not surprised, but consider, do you not conflate Marxism, atheism and "Darwinism" as tools of state control, and the revival of Catholicism in the wake of the retreat of Soviet control has induced this somewhat  hysterical reaction to current evolutionary biology?


What a brilliant nonsense Alan! Congratulation.

You should better readmit John Davison. He could explain his semi-meiosis hypothesis and also his opinion on meiosis as such. His views on the process are very interesting and it would be no doubt more instructive than Ichthyic, Chatfield "witty" posts and questions.

Btw. there is a question asked by Chris Hyland  what is behind "frontloading", what mechanisms took place. I can only copy/paste from John's work. It would be more relevant if he could explain it himself. He as former University teacher and proponent of frontloading would be  the right person for this thread, don't you think?

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,10:47   

Quote
Btw. there is a question asked by Chris Hyland  what is behind "frontloading", what mechanisms took place. I can only copy/paste from John's work.
I've read Johns work, it only partially attempts to answer some of the questions.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,11:13   

Quote (VMartin @ June 22 2007,10:38)
You should better readmit John Davison. He could explain his semi-meiosis hypothesis and also his opinion on meiosis as such. His views on the process are very interesting and it would be no doubt more instructive than Ichthyic, Chatfield "witty" posts and questions.

VMartin, if you're going to try and act like you're superior to us here, you should quit ignoring our questions.

Why do you seem to be afraid to answer such a simple question?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,11:33   



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,11:38   

Quote (VMartin @ June 22 2007,10:38)
...
You should better readmit John Davison. He could explain his semi-meiosis hypothesis and also his opinion on meiosis as such. His views on the process are very interesting and it would be no doubt more instructive than Ichthyic, Chatfield "witty" posts and questions...

Yeah right,
JAD answers less questions than you do.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,11:50   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ June 22 2007,11:38)
Quote (VMartin @ June 22 2007,10:38)
...
You should better readmit John Davison. He could explain his semi-meiosis hypothesis and also his opinion on meiosis as such. His views on the process are very interesting and it would be no doubt more instructive than Ichthyic, Chatfield "witty" posts and questions...

Yeah right,
JAD answers less questions than you do.

I dunno, it might be kind of diverting to have John come in here and call us all sluts...

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,11:54   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 22 2007,11:50)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ June 22 2007,11:38)
Quote (VMartin @ June 22 2007,10:38)
...
You should better readmit John Davison. He could explain his semi-meiosis hypothesis and also his opinion on meiosis as such. His views on the process are very interesting and it would be no doubt more instructive than Ichthyic, Chatfield "witty" posts and questions...

Yeah right,
JAD answers less questions than you do.

I dunno, it might be kind of diverting to have John come in here and call us all sluts...

I can write a JAD simulator.

It will:

Refer you to the PEH
Tell you evolution has stopped
Do the transpose letters thing
Offer 3 random / crap quotes
offer a "sock it to me", "I love it so" etc type ending.


You wont know the difference.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,11:56   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 22 2007,11:50)
...
I dunno, it might be kind of diverting to have John come in here and call us all sluts...

JAD is funny in small doses. The amusement wears a little thin damn quick though.

On a more serious note, he possibly has serious medical problems and it is bloody difficult not to throw insults at him after a few of his posts. It is a bit like those Victorian freak shows.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1373
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,15:58   

OK I give up, VMartin, you bore me, write that down.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,17:25   

Quote (VMartin @ June 22 2007,10:38)
I can only copy/paste from John's work.

I am quite sure of that.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2007,17:26   

Hey Martin, since you won't answer any questions, and can't do anything more than brainlessly parrot JAD, can you think of any good reason why anyone should pay the slightest attention to you?



Me neither.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,11:30   

Well, looks like the simple expedient of forcing him to explain his statements has frightened off VMartin. He can scuttle off and resume cozily brownnosing Javison somewhere.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,11:56   

Quote

He as former University teacher and proponent of frontloading would be  the right person for this thread, don't you think?


Nope. Davison was banned for cause. There has been no change on that score.

Now, concerning the re-raising of moderation issues outside of private communication channels... You have been warned once on this; now you get a second warning. Three strikes and you will be out. Hopefully, that is clear enough for you. If not, use PM or email, not comments in public areas.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,14:08   

Wesley R. Elsberry
 
Quote

Now, concerning the re-raising of moderation issues outside of private communication channels... You have been warned once on this; now you get a second warning. Three strikes and you will be out. Hopefully, that is clear enough for you. If not, use PM or email, not comments in public areas.


I see. It was the last time I asked it publicly here. Anyway I would like to know how neodarwinian "democracy" works here. First I thought I would put here your photo with some idiotic text following it. Exactly as jeanot and Richardthughes did with Davison's photo. How would you like it? Is it wellcome here?

Richardthughes

 
Quote

I can write a JAD simulator.

It will:

Refer you to the PEH
Tell you evolution has stopped
Do the transpose letters thing
Offer 3 random / crap quotes
offer a "sock it to me", "I love it so" etc type ending.


And I can write AtBC song:

We are all here atheists
and ignorants par excellence
we love chance and random mutation
we ban everyone
who disagree with us and chance
we ban you
after giving you stupid questions
par excellence.

Stephen Elliot:

 
Quote

On a more serious note, he possibly has serious medical problems and it is bloody difficult not to throw insults at him after a few of his posts. It is a bit like those Victorian freak shows.


The most serious problem here have Ichthyic, Reverend Dr. Lenny Frank and you. Some of you suffer from serious schizofrenia. I would reccomend you to visit a psychiatrist. Tell him also that you firmly believe beyond any doubt that you originated from fish and that your cousins are mollusks.      


Arden Chatfield
 
Quote

Making VMartin uncomfortable is not without its charms.


I remember how one of your cronies kept asking me how  he could see new information in genome. I told him that information cannot be "seen". Some folks here evidently like to ask stupid questions repeatedly.


----

Anyway if some guy here want to discuss curious polymorphic mimicry of P. dardanus or evolution of mammalian Orders I am prepare. Both cases are good examples of saltationism.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,14:18   

Quote (VMartin @ June 24 2007,14:08)
I told him that information cannot be "seen". Some folks here evidently like to ask stupid questions repeatedly.

[/URL]
heh tell that to mr CD-ROM :)

And if you can't "see" information (in the DNA presumably) what are the sequencing databases full of then? Not-information?

If you cannot see information, how do you even know it has any in the first place?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,14:19   

V! How lovely to have you back, taking a break from brownnosing Davison. Now, how about you answer our questions, since I'm sure you're keen to PROVE how superior you are to all of us.

Here's the questions, V:

You said this:

 
Quote
The Evolution is directed process. It is following a scenario.


So we are asking you, allowing for your requested change in verb tenses:

   
Quote

Who directed it, and what exactly was the 'scenario'?


Have an answer NOW? Still afraid to answer? They're YOUR OWN WORDS I'm asking you to explain, V!

C'mon, Borat VMartin, you can do it! SHOW us how superior your outlook is!

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,14:51   

Quote

First I thought I would put here your photo with some idiotic text following it.


It would mark a vast improvement over your contributions to discussion that I've seen thus far.

And you are, after all that, still just one violation of the rules away from being gone, just in case you thought that there was any unclarity.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,14:52   

Quote

C'mon, Borat VMartin, you can do it! SHOW us how superior your outlook is!


Yes, Borat, a beautiful film. It's pity he didn't make some interview with a neo-darwinist like you. You would have explained him how man originated from fish. It would have been the most funny part of the film, don't you think so?

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,15:04   

Martin, *cough* what about some evidence for your PEH?
Let's see what we have...
- no new order of mammals for 50 Myears or so (something you borrowed from JAD)
- mimicry in butterflies.
-...?

In both cases, you've been unable to demonstrate how this disproves the current theory and how your hypothesis would explain the data better.
You've never felt the necessity to give any detail of your PEH. Instead, you've repeated several assertions that are been demonstrated to be false, like "natural selection is only a destructive process".

And since you haven't provided anything that would falsify your hypothesis, I would follow Lenny's position. Why should we care about what you think?

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,15:13   

Quote (VMartin @ June 24 2007,14:08)
Tell him also that you firmly believe beyond any doubt that you originated from fish and that your cousins are mollusks.      

Well, we did come from fish as was conclusively demonstrated by Garrison, et al:

"In the beginning we were all fish.  Okay, swimming around in the water. And one day a couple of fish had a retard baby and the retard baby was different so it got to live. So retard fish goes on to make more retard babies and one day a retard baby fish crawls out of the ocean with it's mutant fish hands and it had buttsecks with a squirrel or something and made this: retard frog-squirrel. And that had a retard baby that was a monkey-fish-frog.  And then this monkey-fish-frog had buttsecks with that monkey.  And that monkey had a mutant retard baby that screwed another monkey and that made you."

So, there you have it, VMartin, you are the retarded offspring of five monkeys having buttsecks with a fish-squirrel. Congratulations.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,15:19   

Quote (VMartin @ June 24 2007,14:08)
I see. It was the last time I asked it publicly here. Anyway I would like to know how neodarwinian "democracy" works here. First I thought I would put here your photo with some idiotic text following it. Exactly as jeanot and Richardthughes did with Davison's photo.

I protest vigorously.
I linked to JAD's photo yes (heck, he put it online in the first place), but it wasn't followed by any idiotic text. Everything I write is intelligently designed. :p

More seriously Martin. Why should we be afraid of you?
Even if you had some good evidence that the ToE is wrong, claiming to be a martyr of the Darwinian orthodoxy on a random discussion board does not represent a threat to the scientific establishment.  
Unless you've submitted some paper to Science or Nature?

  
jeannot



Posts: 1200
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2007,15:21   

Quote (VMartin @ June 24 2007,14:52)
Yes, Borat, a beautiful film. It's pity he didn't make some interview with a neo-darwinist like you. You would have explained him how man originated from fish.

You do know, Martin, that your mentor supports common descent, don't you?

If it's only about the way it happened, would *you* explain how man originated from fish? Goddidit, then he died?

  
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