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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 3, The Beast Marches On...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,06:31   

None of the links in Behe's post work.

LOL @ Behe.
Quote
http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2009/09/reducible-complexity-in-pnas/%28http:/tinyurl.com/ln7a6k


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
dmso74



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,07:15   

oh, and Behe's an asshat too:

Quote
Well, at least it’s nice to know that my work gives some authors a hook on which to hang results that otherwise would be publishable only in journals with impact factors of -3 or less.


what a pathetic dude.

  
BillB



Posts: 355
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,09:19   

niwrad:
Quote
Nakashima #40

I am claiming that any error-correction mechanism cannot evolve by mean of a process of random errors inside a complex system. A process of random variations is non teleological for definition (randomness has no purpose). A repair system is teleological for definition (has the purpose of fixing errors because “know” how things should be). Here “know” has to be intended in metaphorical sense, in that the real knowledge is in the designer, who necessarily knows the controlled system and its repair mechanisms. A teleological thing cannot arise from a non teleological thing. In other words, purpose or goal cannot come from nothingness.


Shorter niwrad: I define self repair as teleological, therefore self repair mechanisms have to be intelligently designed.

  
KCdgw



Posts: 368
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,09:42   

Gil Dodgen:

Quote
I'm like Joseph.


<snicker>

KC

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10094
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,09:48   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 16 2009,06:31)
None of the links in Behe's post work.

LOL @ Behe.
 
Quote
http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2009/09/reducible-complexity-in-pnas/%28http:/tinyurl.com/ln7a6k

He should get Granny Spice to help.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,10:03   

I think Gil deserves every poke he gets with whatever stick is to hand
Quote
Darwinism is parasitic on real science, and has attained unwarranted legitimacy without scientific rigor.

Frilly shirts or no.

Twat

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,10:13   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 16 2009,11:03)
I think Gil deserves every poke he gets with whatever stick is to hand
 
Quote
Darwinism is parasitic on real science, and has attained unwarranted legitimacy without scientific rigor.

Frilly shirts or no.

Twat

amen.  let's dispense with the "Tard in the ghey shirt is a harmless slightly confused nice guy" meme.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
damitall



Posts: 322
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,10:19   

Quote (KCdgw @ Sep. 16 2009,09:42)
Gil Dodgen:

Quote
I'm like Joseph.


<snicker>

KC

Why should ANYONE want to admit to that?

Sheesh!

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 554
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,10:42   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 16 2009,10:48)
 
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 16 2009,06:31)
None of the links in Behe's post work.

LOL @ Behe.
   
Quote
http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2009/09/reducible-complexity-in-pnas/%28http:/tinyurl.com/ln7a6k

He should get Granny Spice to help.

Does she know how to post a link that doesn't direct to one of her many blags?

--------------
"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
dmso74



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,10:57   

speaking of Joseph, he is now hilariously backpedaling on his claims that T-urf13 was "intelligently designed" in plants:
Quote
   1. Turf-13 arose naturally in maize.

Maize arose artificially.

The protein in question wouldn’t have arisen if we didn’t artificially screw around with the plant.



linky

  
KCdgw



Posts: 368
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,11:06   

Quote (dmso74 @ Sep. 16 2009,10:57)
speaking of Joseph, he is now hilariously backpedaling on his claims that T-urf13 was "intelligently designed" in plants:
 
Quote
   1. Turf-13 arose naturally in maize.

Maize arose artificially.

The protein in question wouldn’t have arisen if we didn’t artificially screw around with the plant.



linky

Those ancient mesoamericans sure must have known their molecular biology.  

What a maroon.

KC

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,11:17   

LOL @ O'Leary
 
Quote
Dawkins refuses to debate educated people who doubt his theories, like Michael Behe.

LOL!

EDIT: Or like Dembski at Dover refusing to "debate"......

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Quack



Posts: 1751
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,11:28   

It wasn't too hard to fix Behe's link but to me it didn't look like much worth to bother with
 
Quote
Recently a paper appeared online in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, entitled “The reducible complexity of a mitochondrial molecular machine” (http://tinyurl.com/mhoh7w). As you might expect, I was very interested in reading what the authors had to say. Unfortunately, as is all too common on this topic, the claims made in the paper far surpassed the data, and distinctions between such basic ideas as “reducible” versus “irreducible” and “Darwinian” versus “non-Darwinian” were pretty much ignored.


--------------
YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,11:48   

Quote (Quack @ Sep. 16 2009,11:28)
It wasn't too hard to fix Behe's link but to me it didn't look like much worth to bother with
   
Quote
Recently a paper appeared online in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, entitled “The reducible complexity of a mitochondrial molecular machine” (http://tinyurl.com/mhoh7w). As you might expect, I was very interested in reading what the authors had to say. Unfortunately, as is all too common on this topic, the claims made in the paper far surpassed the data, and distinctions between such basic ideas as “reducible” versus “irreducible” and “Darwinian” versus “non-Darwinian” were pretty much ignored.

 
Quote
the claims made in the paper far surpassed the data


Sounds like ID in general.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
dmso74



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,12:10   

let's see how long Khan lasts on COrny's blog..

 
Quote
it's also a dramatic misrepresentation of science to claim that this research had anything to do with molecular clocks. or that a different gene family is found in insects and mammals (or is drosophila not an insect?). or that gene expression has anything to do with molecular clocks (you still haven't corrected the mistake). or that finding unexpected result is a reason to discard an entire theory. being a protein guy, i'm sure you realize how badly theoretical Ramachandran plots sometimes predict emprically measured plots. does this mean that sterochemistry theory should be discarded?


linky

  
socle



Posts: 257
Joined: July 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,14:09   

Wow.  For once Denyse makes a genuinely thoughtful post, in Clive's thread on Norman Borlaug:
     
Quote

Or maybe more than a billion, Clive?

Many people who live in technologically advanced societies do not realize how much violence against women in many poor societies is driven by food shortages. Including female infanticide, dowry burns, widow burnings, etc.

When anyone, male or female, can get a paying job and buy lots of food, prejudice against females tends to wane. It just doesn’t matter that much whether your family added a boy or a girl, because either sex can get a job in a technologically advanced society.

Maybe not the same job, but a job that buys food. So … ?

"So ... ?"? 

Then it all goes pear-shaped:
Quote

Of course, we then get issues around obesity, but that’s choice, not desperation.

Investor tip: Invest in health clubs in nations where health gurus are screaming about excess fatness.


WTF?

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4361
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,14:21   

Quote (socle @ Sep. 16 2009,14:09)
Wow.  For once Denyse makes a genuinely thoughtful post, in Clive's thread on Norman Borlaug:
     
Quote

Or maybe more than a billion, Clive?

Many people who live in technologically advanced societies do not realize how much violence against women in many poor societies is driven by food shortages. Including female infanticide, dowry burns, widow burnings, etc.

When anyone, male or female, can get a paying job and buy lots of food, prejudice against females tends to wane. It just doesn’t matter that much whether your family added a boy or a girl, because either sex can get a job in a technologically advanced society.

Maybe not the same job, but a job that buys food. So … ?

"So ... ?"? 

Then it all goes pear-shaped:
 
Quote

Of course, we then get issues around obesity, but that’s choice, not desperation.

Investor tip: Invest in health clubs in nations where health gurus are screaming about excess fatness.


WTF?

but...

If only science could cure her fat-headedness...:)

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,16:32   

Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 16 2009,14:21)
Quote (socle @ Sep. 16 2009,14:09)
Wow.  For once Denyse makes a genuinely thoughtful post, in Clive's thread on Norman Borlaug:
       
Quote

Or maybe more than a billion, Clive?

Many people who live in technologically advanced societies do not realize how much violence against women in many poor societies is driven by food shortages. Including female infanticide, dowry burns, widow burnings, etc.

When anyone, male or female, can get a paying job and buy lots of food, prejudice against females tends to wane. It just doesn’t matter that much whether your family added a boy or a girl, because either sex can get a job in a technologically advanced society.

Maybe not the same job, but a job that buys food. So … ?

"So ... ?"? 

Then it all goes pear-shaped:
 
Quote

Of course, we then get issues around obesity, but that’s choice, not desperation.

Investor tip: Invest in health clubs in nations where health gurus are screaming about excess fatness.


WTF?

but...

If only science could cure her fat-headedness...:)

Sorry, she's a terminal case.

--------------
Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2595
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,18:47   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Sep. 07 2009,15:22)
Grab the popcorn
     
Quote
16

Will Vaus

09/07/2009

11:33 am

Dear Mr. Dembski,

I was attracted to your site because of your comment about C. S. Lewis in this post. Having studied and written about Lewis fairly extensively (See my “Mere Theology: A Guide to the Thought of C. S. Lewis”) it strikes me that your comments about Lewis’s view on evolution is mistaken. I can think of no place in which Lewis retracts his theistic evolutionary stance expressed in “The Problem of Pain”. Could you site a source for your contention that Lewis changed his view on evolution?

Thanks,
Will Vaus

Quote
Will Vaus: I note Mr. Hayden’s comments seeking to support the view that C. S. Lewis retracted his views on theistic evolution. I am aware of the Acworth-Lewis correspondence and have read it in full. What is interesting to note is the end result of that correspondence. Though Acworth sought to enlist Lewis in his cause against evolution Lewis refused to be drawn further into the debate. Furthermore, Lewis never revised “The Problem of Pain” as he revised “Miracles” after his debate with Elizabeth Anscombe.

The supposed comments by Lewis about a historical Adam in A. N. Wilson’s biography are interesting. However, we do not have those comments in Lewis’s own hand. So I still think it is ill advised to try to enlist Lewis against theistic evolution when in his written comments on the subject he is clearly for it.


--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
KCdgw



Posts: 368
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,22:15   

ID science at its best:


tragic mishap

 
Quote
Dave,

 
Quote
Until our ID friends consider and explore these known selective advantages for CMS, and then compare them to the one selective disadvantage in a natural setting, their objections really don’t hold much water.


Do you have a grant in mind? One in which I could be explicit about the purpose of the experiment? Because I have a perfect test in mind.

1. Take a CMS and non-CMS batch of seeds mixed 50/50, and plant them randomly in a field.

2. Leave them be for several seasons, taking samples of every generation. The plants would be allowed to breed naturally.

3. See which version wins out.



IDers are so cute when they play dress up:




KC

Edited by KCdgw on Sep. 16 2009,22:49

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,23:22   

StephenB sounds like he needs to come over here and debate some
 
Quote
Those who truly understand a subject can reduce it to its simplest essence and explain in such a way that a twelve year old could understand it. On the other hand, those who are bluffing hide behind the pretext that the whole thing is far too complex lay out in a few informal paragraphs. I too, have asked the biologists to present evidence for their claims, and they have no answers. This is an open forum. If they had the goods, they would produce them. For them, the name of the game is to scrutinize ID advocates while exempting themselves from being scrutinized. That is why they are always on offense and never on defense. Or haven’t you noticed?

—-”This is a blog. If you want to understand biology, the proper venue is a school.”

School is a good venue for Darwinists to oppress children who are powerless to raise intellectual objections. A blog is a good place for Darwinists to test their theories against those who can evaluate the merits of their arguments. Each time they are challenged, they respond much the same way you did, insisting that this isn’t the right time or the right place.

Link.

This is the right time and place. How about it StephenB?

LOL@Bolded bit.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2595
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,06:41   

Quote
David Coppedge: ID Found in DNA

Suppose they spelled out “Brigham Young University” in full using this code and signed their names with it.  Now they’re not only approaching the Universal Probability Bound, they are tightening the independently verifiable specification...

Would an observer need to know the identity of the designers to detect the design?

Argh! They signed their names, even told us where to look for them!

 
Quote
David Coppedge: Some interesting philosophical questions can ensue from this discussion.  Did the researchers intervene in nature?  Did they use miracles?  Would an observer conclude a miracle had occurred?





-

Edited by the DeSnark™ desnarkification field.


--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,08:19   

Gordon Mullings
 
Quote
The Trebino story shows the root-problem at work: basic loss of respect for truth and fairness to others, AKA incivility.

It is not just on Darwinism, but across a lot of issues, whether labelled science, education, environment, “reproductive rights” (NOT right to life], etc etc. It crops up in the complaints over Wikipedia’s hit pieces in the name of “knowledge,” and it is in the textbooks, mass market books, monographs, journals, conference proceedings, lecture courses, museums, newspaper and magazine columns, TV Channels and web sites etc that are too often putting up misleading shadow-shows that are too often standing in for the truth.


Notice the scare quotes around  “reproductive rights”. I can imagine how Gordon feels about  “reproductive rights”.

And seems that Gordon is happy to complain about  textbooks, mass market books, monographs, journals, conference proceedings, lecture courses, museums, newspaper and magazine columns but when it comes to doing something about it he stalls. He could start by writing up a paper on FSCI and getting it reviewed. But no, Gordon "scare quotes" Mullings thinks that a blog is the best way to change the oh so unfair world.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1237
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,10:15   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 16 2009,23:22)
StephenB sounds like he needs to come over here and debate some
 
Quote
Those who truly understand a subject can reduce it to its simplest essence and explain in such a way that a twelve year old could understand it. On the other hand, those who are bluffing hide behind the pretext that the whole thing is far too complex lay out in a few informal paragraphs. I too, have asked the biologists to present evidence for their claims, and they have no answers. This is an open forum. If they had the goods, they would produce them. For them, the name of the game is to scrutinize ID advocates while exempting themselves from being scrutinized. That is why they are always on offense and never on defense. Or haven’t you noticed?

—-”This is a blog. If you want to understand biology, the proper venue is a school.”

School is a good venue for Darwinists to oppress children who are powerless to raise intellectual objections. A blog is a good place for Darwinists to test their theories against those who can evaluate the merits of their arguments. Each time they are challenged, they respond much the same way you did, insisting that this isn’t the right time or the right place.

Link.

This is the right time and place. How about it StephenB?

LOL@Bolded bit.

New hit tune: "She Blinded Me with BlogScience!"

A good discussion of BlogScience of global warming at
Denial Depot

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,13:20   

Nakashima explains animal husbandry to PaV
   
Quote
The point is that Great Danes and Chihuahuas are a greater ratio of body size and pelvis to pelvis distance than the ratios of upright stance and straddle stance in ancient reptiles. Even if the male has an upright stance and has to adopt a stance as wide as a Republican senator in an airport bathroom in order to mate, I don’t see this as an insurmountable (no pun intended) obstacle.


Though in the case of the Republican Senator, the stance did not improve his chances of reproductive success.

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,14:00   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 17 2009,11:15)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 16 2009,23:22)
StephenB sounds like he needs to come over here and debate some
   
Quote
Those who truly understand a subject can reduce it to its simplest essence and explain in such a way that a twelve year old could understand it. On the other hand, those who are bluffing hide behind the pretext that the whole thing is far too complex lay out in a few informal paragraphs. I too, have asked the biologists to present evidence for their claims, and they have no answers. This is an open forum. If they had the goods, they would produce them. For them, the name of the game is to scrutinize ID advocates while exempting themselves from being scrutinized. That is why they are always on offense and never on defense. Or haven’t you noticed?

—-”This is a blog. If you want to understand biology, the proper venue is a school.”

School is a good venue for Darwinists to oppress children who are powerless to raise intellectual objections. A blog is a good place for Darwinists to test their theories against those who can evaluate the merits of their arguments. Each time they are challenged, they respond much the same way you did, insisting that this isn’t the right time or the right place.

Link.

This is the right time and place. How about it StephenB?

LOL@Bolded bit.

New hit tune: "She Blinded Me with BlogScience!"

A good discussion of BlogScience of global warming at
Denial Depot

holey-moley that is a wonderful blog.  thanks for the link.  love it

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2595
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,17:12   

Quote
PaV: Because I’m assuming that the change of one, single nucleotide isn’t enough, by itself, to make ’straddling’ reptiles ‘upright’. So it has to wait for other mutations to occur before it can bestow any benefit.

There is wide variation in archosaurs of the structure of the pelvis, and the erect gait evolved more than once. This is clearly a case where gradual changes to the overall structure can lead to different strategies or tradeoffs (e.g. Rauisuchia, Crurotarsi).



It's doesn't seem to matter how fine the gradations, IDers always claim each new gap is an uncrossable chasm.

--------------
Tard Acquisition and Repository Department

   
franky172



Posts: 158
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,19:20   

Dembski on why he publishes so many books:

Quote
[My books] sell well and they get read, especially in the Christian community.


Which is what matters to someone trying to make a difference and a lasting impact in science.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4361
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,19:31   

Quote (franky172 @ Sep. 17 2009,19:20)
Dembski on why he publishes so many books:

Quote
[My books] sell well and they get read, especially in the Christian community.


Which is what matters to someone trying to make a difference and a lasting impact in science.

If only I still had a puppet...

I could ask Dr. Dr. if there was a free sweater giveaway for those that buy both books at the Church Basement Sale.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
sparc



Posts: 1684
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2009,23:36   

Dembski
Quote
I receive a mention next to one of the slides — apparently the emergence of nylonase is supposed to provide empirical disconfirmation of my theoretical work on specified complexity (Miller has been taking this line for years). For my response about nylonase, which the critics never cite, go here.

If you go ther you will find something hilarious:
Quote
The problem with this argument is that Miller fails to show that the construction/evolution of nylonase from its precursor actually requires CSI at all. As I develop the concept, CSI requires a certain threshold of complexity to be achieved (500 bits, as I argue in my book No Free Lunch). It’s not at all clear that this threshold is achieved here (certainly Miller doesn’t compute the relevant numbers).
Did Dembski ever calculated such numbers himself?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
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