Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Uncommonly Dense Thread 3

Posted: Feb. 17 2010,11:18

Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 17 2010,11:07)

Actually, I do disapprove of PZ's characterization of Sal. I believe Sal is actually a shameless ghoul taking advantage of a tragedy to score cheap rhetorical points against his perceived opponents in the culture war.

I hope that clarification helps.

On that same thread, is uptight blowhard Joy's sock?

Quote

You completely misunderstand. I am not covering for Sal, nor do I give a flying shit about Charles Darwin shooting a bird as a kid. I shot a bird as a kid. When I got over to it, it was dead, and that particular childhood thrill was over.

What I do find interesting is the self-rightous display when materialists form groups, organize national associations, stack peer-review, conduct e-mail campaigns, circle the legal wagons, and build websites for the sole purpose of assassinating the charater of anyone who would dare have the unmitigated temerity to question them in light of the observable evidence, then go into apoplectic shock if someone spits back.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,11:18

Everyone knows I don't do books.

What am I getting wrong?

P1. God is timeless
P2. God could have authored any Heddle

C1. God knows what heddle will do before god creates him
C2. Heddle's "free will" is an illusion.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Alan Fox

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,11:22

Quote

After all, a "random will" would not be what most people mean by free will.

I was just curious about why atheists ought reject free will (by which I mean the ability of sentient organisms to choose one action instead of another). I did glance at Wikipedia on free will but most of the commentary refers to pre-twentieth century philosophy.

Alan Fox

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,11:23

I see Rich is on the case.

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,11:44

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,11:18)

Hey if I log on to UD, I know that Dembski will toss me out. That doesn't mean he doesn't have free will. Just no free lunch. Or no lunch of any sort at universities run by former special prosecutors who are not on the Clintons' Christmas Card list.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,12:12

OK I was just strolling through the student union and there was a group of students selling boxes of Kripsy Kremes for $5. [1, 2]

I hereby and without hesitation retract everything that I ever said about the existence of free will.

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[1] It turns out they were raising funds for the drag-queen ball. They assured me I didn't have to attend [3]--but I asked if they'd be serving more Krispy Kremes.

[2] Please don't tell Mrs. Calvinist I bought a box of donuts.

[3] OK, it was closer to: Please don't attend.

=========
EDIT: for completeness

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

J-Dog

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,12:19

Quote (fnxtr @ Feb. 17 2010,10:44)

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 17 2010,08:19)

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Feb. 17 2010,06:16)

Sal:

Quote

In this thread, I will suggest the identity of Intelligent Designer of life.

Oh yeah? Who that then?

Quote

“The Ultimate Observer”

And "quantum woo" proves it.

It's the woo meson.

The slowest and densest of particles: the ~~moron~~ moran

.

FTFY! :)

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

JLT

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,12:50

BarryA:

Quote

“Thou shall not resort to immaterial causes for the explanation of natural structures, functions and events”.

I will ask you to consider this though. Suppose Craig Venter succeeds in creating an artificial life form. Suppose further that the life form is handed to a researcher who is tasked with coming up with a theory of its origins. If the researcher is bound by the rule “intelligent causes are ruled out of bounds prior to the investigation” will he not be bound to reach an erroneous conclusion? The answer is “yes” BTW. Write that down.

According to BarryA Craig Venter is an immaterial cause,

Quote

2. That said, ID does not posit non-natural causes (unless you think Craig Venter is a supernatural being).

but not supernatural. That's somehow comforting.
OTOH, that the designer is not a non-natural cause will be news for a lot of people, e. g. StephenB in the same thread, three comments earlier:

Quote

Yes, indeed. What kind of evidence would satisfy them short of a DNA molecule signed, “built by Yahweh.”

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"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,13:19

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,11:44)

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,11:18)

You conflate confidence and knowledge, where knowledge is the intersection of fact and belief. I'm not sure any of what you wrote addresses what I wrote, I may just not 'get it' [happens a lot] but I need a bit more help, because the analogy doesn't seem to work on any level.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,13:30

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,13:19)

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,11:44)

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,11:18)

Sorry, I didn't realize you were serious. But I'll pass, thanks, preferring not to get into a discussion of the Calvinistic view of free will on the UD thread.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

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Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Feb. 17 2010,13:32

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,13:30)

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,13:19)

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,11:44)

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,11:18)

Sorry, I didn't realize you were serious. But I'll pass, thanks, preferring not to get into a discussion of the Calvinistic view of free will on the UD thread.

No worries. I was destined not to know.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Louis

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Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Feb. 17 2010,13:43

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,18:32)

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,13:30)

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,13:19)

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,11:44)

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,11:18)

Sorry, I didn't realize you were serious. But I'll pass, thanks, preferring not to get into a discussion of the Calvinistic view of free will on the UD thread.

No worries. I was destined not to know.

I was destined to know. I do know. I ain't telling.

So there.

Louis

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Bye.

REC

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,13:47

Dr. Dr. D sees Sal's Alabama shooter, and raises him a Jeffery Dahmer.

Quote

Even so, Dahmer’s logic is compelling. We need some external reference point — God — to justify being good. And that justification is significant in its own right. Without it, we can still rationalize particular evils, but we cannot dispense with the category of evil entirely.

I’d like to encourage in this thread other quotes like Dahmer’s — quotes by people who understood the logic of naturalism and the destruction of moral foundations that it entails.

All Science Here

Wow

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,13:52

Quote (REC @ Feb. 17 2010,13:47)

Dr. Dr. D sees Sal's Alabama shooter, and raises him a Jeffery Dahmer.

Quote

All Science Here

Wow

Stuff like this is why you'll never get him to testify in court on ID.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

khan

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Joined: May 2007

Posted: Feb. 17 2010,13:53

Quote (REC @ Feb. 17 2010,14:47)

Dr. Dr. D sees Sal's Alabama shooter, and raises him a Jeffery Dahmer.

Quote

All Science Here

Wow

I wonder what Dr Dr Fuckhead thinks about Christians who murder doctors who save woman's lives.

Sorry, am really in a bad mood concerning snow & ice & Dr Dr dumbfuckery.

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"Stupid people try to find evidence that they're right. Smart people try to find evidence that they're wrong."
-stevestory

"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

REC

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,14:20

I would also like to see the source for the quote. If I recall, it is a bit of an urban legend. The only reference I can find ascribes it to his evangelical father (who became famous for converting his son in prison, and spouting this crap). Nice way to cleanse the guilt, and find where to place the blame....

Quote

"His father Lionel Dahmer expressed Jeffrey’s rationale: "If it all happens naturalistically, what’s the need for a God? Can’t I set my own rules? Who owns me? I own myself."

First Mention

The other reference I find is: Jeffrey Dahmer: The Monster Within, A&E Biography (1996). Which is 2 years after his death, many years after his 'conversion.' Maybe it contains footage prior to his death where he states this. Nonetheless, it is meaningless, retrospective, "I was lost and now am saved" horseshit from a dubious source.

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,14:25

Quote (REC @ Feb. 17 2010,14:20)

Quote

"His father Lionel Dahmer expressed Jeffrey’s rationale: "If it all happens naturalistically, what’s the need for a God? Can’t I set my own rules? Who owns me? I own myself."

First Mention

The other reference I find is: Jeffrey Dahmer: The Monster Within, A&E Biography (1996). Which is 2 years after his death, many years after his 'conversion.'

Meaningless, retrospective, "I was lost and now am saved" horseshit.....

Darwin recanted on his deathbed, dontchaknow?

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

khan

Posts: 1459
Joined: May 2007

Posted: Feb. 17 2010,14:30

Quote (REC @ Feb. 17 2010,15:20)

Quote

"His father Lionel Dahmer expressed Jeffrey’s rationale: "If it all happens naturalistically, what’s the need for a God? Can’t I set my own rules? Who owns me? I own myself."

As did Pasteur, and Galileo, and everybody else who upset the applecart...

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"Stupid people try to find evidence that they're right. Smart people try to find evidence that they're wrong."
-stevestory

"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

Tom Ames

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Joined: Dec. 2002

Posted: Feb. 17 2010,14:48

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,08:29)

I like (yes like) this post by Paul Nelson on free will.

It seems to me impossible for there to be any non-supernatural explanation of free will--yet very few atheists simply state: there is no such thing as free will. The reluctance (by many, not all) to state the obvious, and then address the ensuing philosophical quagmire (good luck with that) is to me a bit dishonest or cowardly.

Unlike we Calvinists, who enjoy free will out the wazoo.

There is no such thing as free will.

What philosophical quagmire?

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-Tom Ames

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,14:56

Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 17 2010,14:48)

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,08:29)

There is no such thing as free will.

What philosophical quagmire?

Oh, well if in the absence of free will you have all the questions regarding, say, just to pick one topic: moral culpability all figured out, then I apologize for being presumptuous in assuming such problems were at least moderately difficult.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

CeilingCat

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,15:07

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,14:56)

Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 17 2010,14:48)

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,08:29)

There is no such thing as free will.

What philosophical quagmire?

In the absence of free will, you will never figure anything out.

And how can you have free will if omniscience exists? The slightest nuance of your most inconsequential thought would be known perfectly before you thought it.

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Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities. Edward Feser

‘Anything is a “real possibility” in the mind of one seeking to deny the obvious.’ – William J Murray

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,16:27

Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 17 2010,15:07)

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,14:56)

Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 17 2010,14:48)

Quote (dheddle @ Feb. 17 2010,08:29)

There is no such thing as free will.

What philosophical quagmire?

Combine that with a "timeless" god and there's really no free will at all, but the author's.

edited!

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Louis

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Joined: Jan. 2006

Posted: Feb. 17 2010,16:35

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,19:25)

Quote (REC @ Feb. 17 2010,14:20)

Quote

"His father Lionel Dahmer expressed Jeffrey’s rationale: "If it all happens naturalistically, what’s the need for a God? Can’t I set my own rules? Who owns me? I own myself."

Darwin recanted on his deathbed, dontchaknow?

Darwin recanted Dahmer on his deathbed? Now that was prescient!

Louis

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Bye.

Albatrossity2

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,16:40

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 17 2010,16:35)

Darwin recanted Dahmer on his deathbed? Now that was prescient!

Yeah, and Haeckel did the same for Hitler.

(Ain't alliteration awful?)

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

khan

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Joined: May 2007

Posted: Feb. 17 2010,16:41

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 17 2010,17:35)

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 17 2010,19:25)

Quote (REC @ Feb. 17 2010,14:20)

Quote

"His father Lionel Dahmer expressed Jeffrey’s rationale: "If it all happens naturalistically, what’s the need for a God? Can’t I set my own rules? Who owns me? I own myself."

Darwin recanted on his deathbed, dontchaknow?

Darwin recanted Dahmer on his deathbed? Now that was prescient!

Louis

Fundies tend to lie all the time.

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"Stupid people try to find evidence that they're right. Smart people try to find evidence that they're wrong."
-stevestory

"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

REC

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,16:48

The BOLD voice in the ceiling has purged hdx's comment for mentioning Dahmer grew up in a fundamentalist household* and maybe, just maybe, was mentally ill.

Quote

hdx: Instead of trying to throw the thread off track (the usual, nay, inevitable materialist tactic), why don’t you favor us all with a materialist justification for ethics. Is Provine right? If not, why not?

link

This in a thread where Dr. Dr. D has suggested everyone throw in their favorite defamatory quotemine.

* Indeed, his father is a published "creation scientist"
http://www.cereferencedatabase.com/node/1545

Quack

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,16:55

Quote

And how can you have free will if omniscience exists? The slightest nuance of your most inconsequential thought would be known perfectly before you thought it.

Maybe not quite on topic, but I remember seeing something on the telly about an experiment with decision making: instruments, I don't remember what kind but probably some scanning device, revealed decisions being made several seconds before becoming conscious in the person making them.

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My new avatar is so lovely.
Me.

you are hand waving faster than a one armed NY cabby with crabs.
k.e..

No, I said nothing about mathematics. Anyone can support anything with mathematics.
Ray Martinez

Louis

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,16:55

Quote (REC @ Feb. 17 2010,21:48)

[SNIP]

...Dahmer grew up in a fundamentalist household* and maybe, just maybe, was mentally ill.

[SNIP]

Bolding mine.

Wait! You mean raping, torturing, killing, and eating young men and boys, and occasionally also shagging the corpses is a sign of potential mental illness?

Has anyone told Arden? He's gonna want to know that he needs to get himself checked out.

Louis

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Bye.

didymos

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Posted: Feb. 17 2010,18:03

Count on Sal "(Alleged) Goat Sodomizer" Cordova to come through with a ne plus ultra of a quote mine:

Quote

Dahmer was into cannibalism.
He got some support from a professor at Vanderbilt who wrote the book: Compassionate Cannibalism. Below is a delicious quote from this professor. She redifines the meaning of “consuming passion”.

Quote

We assume that cannibalism is always an aggressive, barbaric and degrading act,
…
But that is a serious over-simplification, one that has kept us from realizing that cannibalism can have positive meanings
Beth Conklin
Vanderbilt University

The book in question? Consuming Grief: Compassionate Cannibalism in an Amazonian Society. An ethnography. First published in 2001. 7 fucking years after Dahmer was DEAD.

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I wouldn’t be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again “how much”. I don’t think that’s a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

fnxtr

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