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  Topic: Presidential Politics & Antievolution, Tracking the issue< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,04:17   

This thread is for items and discussion about where antievolution issues pop up in the campaigns or media coverage in the race for the presidency.

Fox News ran an article by Bill Sammon casting several slurs at newly-revealed Democratic Vice President candidate Senator Joe Biden, including making an issue over comments of Biden's related to creationism and "intelligent design".

Quote

   Biden also used unusually strong language to ridicule those who believe in creationism or intelligent design.

   “I refuse to believe the majority of people believe this malarkey!” the senior senator from Delaware exclaimed.

   But less than six months earlier, CBS News conducted a poll that found a majority of Americans (51 percent) do believe that God created humans in their present form. Even larger majorities reject the theory of evolution, according to the poll.

   After the HBO show ended, a reporter asked Biden whether his dismissal of a belief held dear by most Americans might come back to haunt him if his White House bid gained traction.

   With characteristic bluntness, Biden shrugged and said yes.


I have a response on my weblog.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 3590
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,09:18   

In the Republican debates, three wannabes raised their hands indicating they did not accept evolution. None of them will be on the ticket.

McCain appears to be a theistic evolutionist. He doesn't seem inclined to pick a yahoo for a running mate.

I'm more concerned about state legislatures and school boards.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,10:00   

We already have several threads devoted to antievolution efforts in specific states. I think having one for the executive branch takes nothing away from those.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
midwifetoad



Posts: 3590
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,10:14   

I'm all for holding the candidate's feet to the fire on science. It would be odd to see candidates forced to deny being anti-evolution. That would be the day.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,10:56   

Well, I for one, have the audacity to hope that we can go forward, together, and dream of things that never were.

Here's my "Brush With Greatness" story.

Back in 2005 - 2006, when Santorum of PA was making a total ass of himself by making ID-sounding noises, I emailed my Jr. Senator from IL asking him to bitch-slap Santorem and tell him to shut up, we have a separation of church and state in the US.

So, Obama emailed back that while he would not slap Santorum, he would vote against his ID proposals and did believe in a strict separation of church and state.

Of course, this was before Obama's  dumb-ass meeting with the Mega-Church guy, and before he said he is okay with faith-based intiatives...

But he sure looks like a way better alternative to Johnny McSame.

My $.02 and worth every penny.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
midwifetoad



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,11:35   

I think it should be obvious that politicians can't really have opinions on religion that aren't calculated. If anything matters, it is their voting record.

And even that isn't a sure thing, because laws are packaged in such a way that everyone winds up voting for something they don't like.

--------------
”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,18:07   

I think that the vagueness on anti-evolution is a symptom of a bigger problem with western governments at the moment.
Everything is so carefully managed that it is difficult to find much difference between the candidates and it doesn't pay to have any vision or take any risks.
I think that the danger here is that the US is at the edge of what could be a long and deep recession, admitting to it would be to somehow be un-American*. The problem for the US is that unlike other recessions, the Asian internal markets are developed enough to probably keep on growing.
In five years time my prediction will be that, unless something is done, China will be the superpower and a lot of the best research and universities will be done in Asia.

* In Australia, the opposition party blames the government for the downturn because they were "talking down the economy"

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3590
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 25 2008,18:21   

China will eventually be the superpower simply because it has the most people and possibly the smartest.  Or the most smart people. Could take ten years or  fifty, but it's on the way.

India could compete in this arena if they undergo a similar cultural revolution, but I doubt they will in my lifetime. Of course I would have said the same thing about China 20 years ago.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
Amadan



Posts: 1264
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,05:54   

Quote
In Australia, the opposition party blames the government for the downturn because they were "talking down the economy"


Proof, of which we can never have too much, that the world is round and that antipodeans are therefore upside-down: here in Ireland, the Government blames the slump on the opposition because they talked the economy down.

And the government is always right, you know. It even says so on their web site.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,10:52   

This just in:

John McSame picks FTK-like  Home-Schooling Mom Creationist as his VP selection:

from Daily kos:


McCain Picks FTK as VP

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:04   

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 29 2008,10:52)
This just in:

John McSame picks FTK-like  Home-Schooling Mom Creationist as his VP selection:

from Daily kos:


McCain Picks FTK as VP

Frighteningly enough, yep, Dawg:

"FoxNews source releases information that Governor Sarah Palin is McCains VP pick. Fox News claims McCain Camp has verified by email. Gov Palin is a former Sportscaster, Mayor, and she is pro-life, NRA member, and originally from Idaho."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2070582/posts

From the Fox's Anus, so to speak: http://elections.foxnews.com/2008....-friday

Afarensis put a thread up:  

http://scienceblogs.com/afarens....the_ala  

-- she supports the teaching of creationism in schools.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10305
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:18   

Aw crap - another creotard. What a choice for Vice-MILF.

And if they think Obama doesn't have enough experience, this one - oh dear...

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:49   

A slightly different take (though Afarensis and I are working from the same news sources): McCain Picks Palin: Medium Threat to Science Education

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:51   

Until we get more data, I'm treating Palin as having fallen for "fairness argument" rhetoric rather than being a fully-invested antievolution advocate. Lots of people do...

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:51   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 29 2008,11:18)
Aw crap - another creotard. What a choice for Vice-MILF.

And if they think Obama doesn't have enough experience, this one - oh dear...

What do mean?  

She's got a solid 1 1/2 years in as the Gov of the state with the 47th smallest population...

and only a little "whiff of corruption" attached to her!

added in edit:  Palin's Abuse Of Power

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 8990
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,13:45   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 29 2008,12:04)
Afarensis put a thread up:  

http://scienceblogs.com/afarens....the_ala  

-- she supports the teaching of creationism in schools.

I just read the afarensis post and was going to come over here to say that about creationism, she doesn't seem opposed to it, but she doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic either. She's certainly no Pill I mean Bill Buckingham.

   
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,14:18   

Quote (stevestory @ Aug. 29 2008,13:45)
Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 29 2008,12:04)
Afarensis put a thread up:  

http://scienceblogs.com/afarens....the_ala  

-- she supports the teaching of creationism in schools.

I just read the afarensis post and was going to come over here to say that about creationism, she doesn't seem opposed to it, but she doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic either. She's certainly no Pill I mean Bill Buckingham.

I'm not Americanian and I don't live in Americania... But I did watch all of "The Wire"*, so I feel qualified to comment on Americanian politics.

I don't see that Sarah Palin said any more in support of creationism than the bear minimum required to get elected Republican...






* I also loved "Bonanza" and "Batman" when I was v young.

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"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
Richardthughes



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,14:55   

I get the feeling its a flailing attempt to show republicans are not all irrelevant octogenarians who wear their pants up high by their nipples and are distrustful of them coloureds, wimmin and those who are too light on their feet, wink-wink.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,15:38   

Sarah Palin = Dan Quayle

- with tits


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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,16:12   

Supposedly Karl Rove was urging McSame in no uncertain terms NOT to pick Lieberman. I wonder if 'Quayle with Boobs' was his idea?

Swell. Another four years with Turdblossom.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Timothy McDougald



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,20:54   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 29 2008,11:04)
Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 29 2008,10:52)
This just in:

John McSame picks FTK-like  Home-Schooling Mom Creationist as his VP selection:

from Daily kos:


McCain Picks FTK as VP

Frighteningly enough, yep, Dawg:

"FoxNews source releases information that Governor Sarah Palin is McCains VP pick. Fox News claims McCain Camp has verified by email. Gov Palin is a former Sportscaster, Mayor, and she is pro-life, NRA member, and originally from Idaho."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2070582/posts

From the Fox's Anus, so to speak: http://elections.foxnews.com/2008....-friday

Afarensis put a thread up:  

http://scienceblogs.com/afarens....the_ala  

-- she supports the teaching of creationism in schools.

Actually, that is a post from 2006 that has suddenly become relevant - to my intense surprise.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,00:13   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 29 2008,11:51)
Until we get more data, I'm treating Palin as having fallen for "fairness argument" rhetoric rather than being a fully-invested antievolution advocate. Lots of people do...

I'll go along with that.

I hurriedly exaggerated her position on the matter of teaching creationism (I simply posted too fast without doing research, which is stupid on my part, and the kind of crap I dislike when others do it) -- anyways, I'll rachet that back a few notches. My apologies.

I'll wait to see what the fundy bloc presses her to say, and if she says it.    

I tried finding any more info out, but didn't get far. She doesn't appear to be an extremist, and is actually impressive in regards to her ethical stances on several matters -- corruption in various venues and upholding rulings on gay rights that she didn't personally endorse, but saw fit to take a stand on ( the last detailed here: http://dwb.adn.com/news....8c.html ).

Afarensis mentioned this article in the Anchorage Daily News from Oct. 27 2006:
http://www.adn.com/news....4c.html

But there's also this, from Oct. 24 2006, a two-part bio in the Anchorage Daily News
Part one:
http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/story/8334949p-8231037c.html

Part two:
http://dwb.adn.com/news....0c.html

I don't want to be accused of taking part in any feeding frenzy against her because the truth is that I'm impressed with the backbone she's demonstrated --  this shouldn't be taken to mean I'd ever endorse her in *this* race,  particularly when I'm not convinced McCain is entirely sane.

n.b. I recall a mod or regular poster at IIDB (Internet Infidels) or Dawkins' joint being from Eagle River, so maybe I can look that person up and see if they can offer any insight from a local view. In the meantime, Wikipedia has a good profile on her that includes this cited statement:

" Concerning education, while running for Governor of Alaska and asked about the teaching of creationism in public school science classes, Palin answered that she thought it was healthy for both creationism and evolution to be taught together; although she clarified the next day that she meant that open debate between the two ideas should not be prohibited if it came up in discussion, but that creationism did not need to be part of the curriculum. She also added that she would not appoint State Board of Education members based on their opinions on evolution or creationism. "

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
stevestory



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,00:48   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 30 2008,01:13)
I hurriedly exaggerated her position on the matter of teaching creationism (I simply posted too fast without doing research, which is stupid on my part, and the kind of crap I dislike when others do it)

I don't think anybody here would hold against you a few crap posts out of 1766. I'm lucky if 10% of mine are worth a hoot :p

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,05:15   

I think you got your numbers reversed there, chief;   hanging out here, I was bound to learn stuff eventually --I should have listened to reason about chasing the great white Hawkins whale, come to think of it. Anyway, when I had problems with mods elsewhere, I always pointed to this place as being about as good as it gets. Adding Lou and Kristine just spiffed it up even more.

I blame Louis, Arden and the sinister richardthughes for anything bad here. Evil bastards.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,06:13   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 30 2008,11:15)
I think you got your numbers reversed there, chief;   hanging out here, I was bound to learn stuff eventually --I should have listened to reason about chasing the great white Hawkins whale, come to think of it. Anyway, when I had problems with mods elsewhere, I always pointed to this place as being about as good as it gets. Adding Lou and Kristine just spiffed it up even more.

I blame Louis, Arden and the sinister richardthughes for anything bad here. Evil bastards.

You blame me?

I'm shocked, shocked I say.

Louis

P.S. You only blame me for exposing you as the deviant squirrelist you really are. Mind you, you guys are about to get a Python as VP so it's all good. What? It's not Michael Palin? It's some creationist appeasing chick? That's changes things!

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Bye.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1373
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,07:03   

Louis (and other non-colonials tempted to insert their 2 cents)

Look what can happen :O

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,08:24   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 30 2008,05:15)
I think you got your numbers reversed there, chief;   hanging out here, I was bound to learn stuff eventually --I should have listened to reason about chasing the great white Hawkins whale, come to think of it. Anyway, when I had problems with mods elsewhere, I always pointed to this place as being about as good as it gets. Adding Lou and Kristine just spiffed it up even more.

I blame Louis, Arden and the sinister richardthughes for anything bad here. Evil bastards.

I LIKED your digging, and I think that I went off too fast, too far, and I hate that in others too... but she is NO Hillary Clinton.  

I also did a little MORE digging, and now I think she is an even worse choice.  According to a voter in her home town, she mis-managed a property buy for the town, and the town wound up paying @ 10 times what they should have for the project.  

That's not change - that's more of the same!

And I still don't trust her science / creation position.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,09:07   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 30 2008,11:15)
[SNIP]

I should have listened to reason about chasing the great white Hawkins whale, come to think of it.

[SNIP]

I forgot to ask, how goes your Hawkins hunting? Is Ericmurphy still on the case?

Louis

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Bye.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4511
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,09:10   

I don't think I was advocating "trust", just a modicum of caution in classification. Palin might straighten up if she seriously got up to speed on the evolution v. creationism issue, but she has come out of the gate as having sided with the deceptionists. It is certainly cause for concern.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,09:17   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 30 2008,15:10)
I don't think I was advocating "trust", just a modicum of caution in classification. Palin might straighten up if she seriously got up to speed on the evolution v. creationism issue, but she has come out of the gate as having sided with the deceptionists. It is certainly cause for concern.

In all seriousness I'll go along with that. I have to say I "like" the fact that when pressed on what seemed to be overtly antievolution comments she retreated to "teach both sides" rhetoric.

Why I said I "like" that is because:

a) Even though WE all know "teach both sides" is standard antievolutionist deception it doesn't me she does. She could be well meaning and ignorant about the methods of antievolutionists, "teach both sides/the controversy" is an easy and apparently reasonable position to occupy for someone unaware of the history and issues associated with antievolution. It's also simple political sense: appear to support everyone until you can afford not to

b) The chances that she is a dyed in the wool creationist loon are lessened by that retreat. It *could* be deception on her part, but I have no evidence to suspect that it is. So don't assume it until demonstrable.

It could have been Huckabee after all....

Louis

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Bye.

  
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