Joined: July 2009
|Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 19 2012,08:38)|
|Quote (tsig @ Feb. 19 2012,09:03)|
|Quote (eigenstate @ Feb. 16 2012,15:44)|
|Quote (iconofid @ Feb. 16 2012,15:16)|
|Quote (Ptaylor @ Feb. 14 2012,14:51)|
|Barry's latest (emphasis added):|
|The law of non-contradiction (“LNC”) states that for any proposition “A,” A cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same formal relation.|
The existence of the LNC is the very basis of all argumentation, and anyone who denies it also denies meaning, order, truth and logic. For obvious reasons, therefore, it is not only useless but also affirmatively harmful to the search for truth to argue with someone who refuses to admit unambiguously the LNC. Arguing with a person who denies the basis for argument is self-defeating and can lead only to confusion. Only a fool or a charlatan denies the LNC, and this site will not be a platform from which fools and charlatans will be allowed to spew their noxious inanities.
For that reason, I am today announcing a new moderation policy at UD. At any time the moderator reserves the right to ask the following question to any person who would comment or continue to comment on this site: “Can the moon exist and not exist at the same time and in the same formal relation?” The answer to this question is either “yes” or “no.” If the person gives any answer other than the single word “no,” he or she will immediately be deemed not worth arguing with and therefore banned from this site.
We will start with Petrushka to demonstrate the application of the policy. Petrushka, can the moon exist and not exist at the same time and in the same formal relation?
My opinion: bizarre.
I don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet because I'm replying to a post on page 98 of the thread, but Barry has just denied the existence of an omnipotent God. He has also effectively banned anyone who believes in such a God from defending its ability to make the moon simultaneously existent and non-existent.
I'm banned from U.D., but had I been Petrushka, I'd have relished pointing this out.
Ignoring the physics for a moment, the knife could be stuck in this way:
"Only someone who believes in an omnipotent god could answer yes to that. And who believes in miracles these days?"
I wonder if this has occurred to any of the god squad at U.D.
Does anyone with a surviving sock want to make the point?
Orthodox Christianity doesn't conceive of "omnipotent" in ways that allow self-contradictory propositions. They just laugh, and with some warrant, when you ask if "God can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it", or "make a square circle". Even (especially) God is not potent in that way, because it's not a potency at all, but instead a conceptual error in the asking of the question.
An omnipotent God would not be able to make a moon exist and not-exist at the same time, and in the same (classical, we must note) sense. That's a contradiction in terms, rather than an ability or a potency. "No be able" is a bit of a language trick we play on our selves there, because "make a square circle" does not resolve against "able" or "unable".
If we follow that line of logic then all miracles are impossible.
Indeed. Someone is playing language games, but it isn't iconofid.
If Yahweh (or any other god) "...is not potent in that way", then he is not in fact omnipotent.
If Barry's (and StephenB's) God is the uncaused cause of everything, that should include the reality in which the law of non-contradiction applies. He should only be constrained by the law if it is part of a greater reality that he did not create and does not control.
Barry cannot claim that it is impossible for the moon to both exist and not exist at the same time without placing limitations on his God's omnipotent miraculous capabilities.
This is not on quite the same level as questioning God's omnipotence by asking if he himself could both exist and not exist at the same time, or whether he could create a rock too heavy for himself to lift. I'ts just asking whether or not he can miraculously alter the reality he has created.
Can Barry claim to know that the moon scenario is beyond the capabilities of his god, and therefore impossible? Is Barry omniscient?
Shouldn't this be discussed at U.D., where there might be people who believe that God can do whatever he wills, and isn't constrained by a reality greater than himself?
That last is, I think, a commonly held belief amongst Christians.