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J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,21:27   

Quote (Quidam @ April 21 2008,17:47)
Quote (dochocson @ April 21 2008,15:40)
   
Quote (Bob O'H @ April 21 2008,11:19)
Coincidentally, potatoes don't have caterpillars over their eyes either.

Oh sure, but some Darwinian evilutionist will glue a dead caterpillar to a potato and put the picture in a textbook.

What - who would do that?

The ALL NEW and Improved Face of ID...

Thanks Quidam!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,22:56   

Back to the Autin Powers theme


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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4368
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,09:27   

Quote (Quidam @ April 21 2008,22:56)
Back to the Autin Powers theme

... and the Eternal Theme - YOUNG LOVE!

As they gaze adoringly into each other's intelligently designed eyes... for what use is half an eye...

...Not that that's wrong...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4506
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 26 2008,01:25   

Casey Luskin and Hypocrisy

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 30 2008,20:55   

Non sequitur, anyone?
Quote

Do Car Engineers Turn to Darwinian Evolution or Intelligent Design?

Casey Luskin

Don’t read into this post too much, but take it as a series of curious observations. We’re often told that Darwinism is like a scientific magic bullet that can solve anything. Darwinists love to quote Theodosius Dobzhansky saying, “nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.” We’re also told that intelligent design threatens to destroy science. Nonetheless, I can’t help but notice that when engineers design technology to be sold to the public, they prefer to tell them about processes of intelligent design over unguided selection and random mutation.


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EyeNoU



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(Permalink) Posted: May 31 2008,11:35   

Do you think that Casey remembers that extinct make of car called the Yugo? When the car buying public was offered that intelligent design, they NATURALLY SELECTED something different.......

  
nuytsia



Posts: 131
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,03:33   

(sigh)

Casey finds science paper too full of "sciency jargon".

Carl and PZ try to help.


For some reason this this came to mind.

   
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,20:25   

Over at Panda's Thumb, Nick Matzke describes how Luskin has lost it (on Altenberg).  A totally unforced error, even funnier than Where's the Wrist?

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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,20:41   

Oh man. What a disaster.

   
Nerull



Posts: 317
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,20:45   

I'm sure FTK will be along shortly to tell us how Pivar really was one of the 16.

And he gave a presentation on evolution of balloon animals.

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To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

   
stevestory



Posts: 8956
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(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,20:46   

The rate of stupid mistakes Casey's making these days, this thread might eventually overtake the UD thread.

:p

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,23:38   

Boy, Nick spewed out quite the little rant there ...

Teh gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

His post provided the usual hysterical desperation heard from the Darwinist camp lately.   “Oh, hey, those guys who Mazar questioned about evolution are just big meany cranks!  She calls herself a “journalists”??!!!111!!!  Don’t listen to them....listen to ME, ME, ME!  I am evolution, hear me RRRROOOOOAAAARRRRR!!

Then he unfairly accuses Casey of dishonesty because of how he introduces Pivar...

“Altenberg 16 participant chemist and engineer Stuart Pivar...”

Casey described Jerry Fodor in the same way, and Fodor wasn’t one of the actual 16 either.  They were both “participants” of the conference....not two of the 16.   There is nothing wrong with the way he phrased that sentence.  Heck, I’m not sure how anyone could have misunderstand it the way Nick did as Casey includes several links that give the names of the 16.  

Darwinism = Intellectual Cult....Alpha Male says so. :p  :p  :p

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Quack



Posts: 1778
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,03:58   

I sometimes get this eerie feeling, that some people have an uncanny knack of entirely missing the point(s). But as always I may be wrong, while insisting that I am right until proven otherwise.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.
                                                                                               Richard Feynman

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,05:11   

Quote (Ftk @ July 17 2008,21:38)
Then he unfairly accuses Casey of dishonesty because of how he introduces Pivar...

“Altenberg 16 participant chemist and engineer Stuart Pivar...”

No, Ftk, Nick did not accuse Luskin of being dishonest about Pivar.  He accused the untalented Mr. Luskin of being wrong about Pivar.

Nick wrote:
Quote
Pivar wasn’t part of the Altenberg 16, read the friggin’ list of the 16 right here... Fodor is another Altenberg attendee that was completely imagined by Luskin. Can someone please inform the guys at the DI that just because one silly journalist mentions Fodor & Pivar in the same article as the Altenberg meeting, that doesn’t mean they were participants?

Ftk again:
Quote
Casey described Jerry Fodor in the same way, and Fodor wasn’t one of the actual 16 either.  They were both “participants” of the conference....not two of the 16.   There is nothing wrong with the way he phrased that sentence.  Heck, I’m not sure how anyone could have misunderstand [sic] it the way Nick did as Casey includes several links that give the names of the 16.  

Ftk, where did you get the idea that Pivar and Fodor participated in the conference?

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,06:37   

Quote (Ftk @ July 17 2008,23:38)
“Altenberg 16 participant chemist and engineer Stuart Pivar...”

Casey described Jerry Fodor in the same way, and Fodor wasn’t one of the actual 16 either.  They were both “participants” of the conference....not two of the 16.   There is nothing wrong with the way he phrased that sentence.  Heck, I’m not sure how anyone could have misunderstand it the way Nick did as Casey includes several links that give the names of the 16.  

Darwinism = Intellectual Cult....Alpha Male says so. :p  :p  :p

FtK, neither Fodor, nor Pivar were “participants” of the workshop in any sense or form.  Here's a direct link to the authoritative source (Pigliucci) who explains what this was all about:
 
Quote

The so-called “Woodstock of evolution” (not my term, and a pretty bad one for sure) will see a group of scientists, by now known as “the Altenberg 16” (because there are sixteen of us, and we’ll meet at the Konrad Lorenz Institute for theoretical biology in Altenberg, near Vienna) has been featured on blogs by a variety of nutcases, as well as the quintessential ID “think” tank, the Discovery Institute of Seattle. They have presented the workshop that I am organizing in collaboration with my colleague Gerd Müller, and the proceedings of which will be published next year by MIT Press, as an almost conspiratorial, quasi-secret cabala, brought to the light of day by the brave work of independent journalists and “scholars” bent on getting the truth out about evolution. Of course, nothing could be further from the (actual) truth.

The workshop is part of a regular series organized by the KLI (they do a couple of these a year), that has been going on for years now. Each workshop is limited to a small number of participants, both for logistical reasons (the Institute is small, and they have to budget the costs of paying for travel and lodging for all scientists involved) and because the idea is to get people to focus on discussing, rather than lecturing (hard to do with large groups). Articles and commentaries on the web have also made much of the fact that the meeting is “private,” meaning that the public and journalists are not invited. This is completely normal for small science workshops all over the world, and I was genuinely puzzled by the charge until I realized (it took me a while) that a sense of conspiracy increases the likelihood that people will read journalistic internet articles and ID sympathetic blogs. You’ve got to sell the product, even at the cost of, shall we say, bending, the reality.

I have run workshops and Pigliucci's explanation totally makes sense to me.  A typical workshop features a small number of people and is often run on a shoestring budget.  The press is not invited: a workshop is not a conference, people come there to explore new directions, not to show off results. Here are workshop guidelines for the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics in Santa Barbara, CA.  
 
Quote
* The workshop should begin within about six months of the time of the proposal.
* The duration of the workshop should be 1-3 weeks, usually 2 weeks.
* There should be 10-30 participants.


Mazur made stuff up and Casey swallowed it hook, line and sinker.  Totally his fault.

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JonF



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,07:26   

Quote (Ftk @ July 18 2008,00:38)
“Altenberg 16 participant chemist and engineer Stuart Pivar...”

Casey described Jerry Fodor in the same way, and Fodor wasn’t one of the actual 16 either.  They were both “participants” of the conference....not two of the 16.

Only the Altenberg 16 were particiapnts.

 
Quote
There is nothing wrong with the way he phrased that sentence.  Heck, I’m not sure how anyone could have misunderstand it the way Nick did as Casey includes several links that give the names of the 16.

Yup, and Pivar and Fodor were not on the list. Duh.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,07:32   

Quote (JonF @ July 18 2008,07:26)
 
Quote (Ftk @ July 18 2008,00:38)
There is nothing wrong with the way he phrased that sentence.  Heck, I’m not sure how anyone could have misunderstand it the way Nick did as Casey includes several links that give the names of the 16.

Yup, and Pivar and Fodor were not on the list. Duh.

That's sorta like saying that even if Walt Brown got it wrong about the asteroid belt or the Oort cloud in one section of his book, you need to read the rest of it, just in case he didn't make that mistake later.

If Luskin (or Brown) get it wrong once, I don't really see that one has an obligation to look further to see if they get it right later. Once should be enough to allow someone to say "That's wrong".

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ftk



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,07:36   

I'm going to try to get in touch with this Mazur chick and find out what's really going on here.  I've never heard of the gal in the ID camp, so I don't know why she would be out to stick it to you guys.  It certainly couldn't be good for her career to do so.  We've all seen you guys throw around the crank/liar/insane label often enough to know that you'll work at destroying her reputation as a journalist if she questions your theory.

Of course, I guess it makes sense that the "16" wouldn't allow Pivar or Fodor to comment or participate in any way since they actually question the extent to which the ToE is a viable theory.  

DO NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY.  Bow before Darwin you fools!

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,07:44   

Quote (Ftk @ July 18 2008,07:36)
DO NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY.  Bow before Darwin you fools!

Too funny!

Before you contact Mazur, maybe you should look up projection!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
olegt



Posts: 1387
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,07:50   

Quote (Ftk @ July 18 2008,07:36)
I'm going to try to get in touch with this Mazur chick and find out what's really going on here.  I've never heard of the gal in the ID camp, so I don't know why she would be out to stick it to you guys.  It certainly couldn't be good for her career to do so.  We've all seen you guys throw around the crank/liar/insane label often enough to know that you'll work at destroying her reputation as a journalist if she questions your theory.

Of course, I guess it makes sense that the "16" wouldn't allow Pivar or Fodor to comment or participate in any way since they actually question the extent to which the ToE is a viable theory.  

DO NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY.  Bow before Darwin you fools!

Go ahead, FtK, get to the bottom of this controversy.  

And while you're at it, ask Mazur to explain how the mormons were behind G. W. Bush's rise to power.
[snicker]

As to why some people were invited and others were not, it's up to the workshop organizers to decide whom they want to invite.  You want to organize a workshop with Fodor and Pivar, raise the money and have a ball.

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oldmanintheskydidntdoit



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,08:14   

Quote (Ftk @ July 18 2008,07:36)
Of course, I guess it makes sense that the "16" wouldn't allow Pivar or Fodor to comment or participate in any way since they actually question the extent to which the ToE is a viable theory.  

Do you have any actual evidence that that is the case? Or are you just copying what others are saying as today's talking point?

How much money do the Disco Tute pay you FTK to repeat their talking points for the day?

FTK, do you have any more information on how Pivar and Fodor applied to go to the discussion and were rebuffed?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Doc Bill



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,08:16   

The "16" excluded Walt Brown, too.

Talk about closed-minded non-academic not-freedom.  Why a so-called "world class" conference wouldn't invite a Certified World Class Crackpot like Brown is scandalous. Shocking, I say.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,08:18   

FTK, this might help

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Pivar+Fodor+"Altenberg+16"

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,09:24   

Quote (Ftk @ July 18 2008,07:36)
I'm going to try to get in touch with this Mazur chick and find out what's really going on here.  I've never heard of the gal in the ID camp, so I don't know why she would be out to stick it to you guys.  It certainly couldn't be good for her career to do so.  We've all seen you guys throw around the crank/liar/insane label often enough to know that you'll work at destroying her reputation as a journalist if she questions your theory.

Of course, I guess it makes sense that the "16" wouldn't allow Pivar or Fodor to comment or participate in any way since they actually question the extent to which the ToE is a viable theory.

I just read this again, and it really is characteristic of the ignore-the-evidence-at-all-times school of creationist thought. Who said that Mazur was trying to "stick it to" anyone? Who said that she needed to be in the "ID camp"? Why are those possibilities considered to be at a higher probability level than the explanation that dozens of people had put forward? Why are you ignoring that evidence in favor of your own bizarre opinion?

FtK, have you considered the possibility that she is just incompetent as a science journalist? There's plenty of evidence for that conclusion in the posts that you claim to have read on this topic. Furthermore, have you considered the possibility that being incompetent as a journalist these days is a relatively common thing, and that some folks manage to keep going in some niche or other long after their journalistic reputations are in tatters? Have you heard of Geraldo Rivera? Bill O'Reilly? Has your long association with the UD denizens made it impossible for you to recognize incompetence?

Besides, you have other fish to fry. Why is common design the scientific equal to common descent, considering that it lost in a head-to-head competition in the latter half of the 19th century? Any evidence for your opinion from here?    
Quote
To claim that common descent is a fact that scientists must adhere to in order to advance scientific research   just seems silly, IMHO

Thought not.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,11:39   

First the Altenberg 16 were going to put all us Darwinists in our place.

Quote
We see an upheavel occuring again as ID is breaking it's way into the scientific community and evolutionists are coming to the realization that their theory is inadequate in explaining our existence.  

Don't believe me?......Consider the upcoming meeting of "The Altenberg 16"


But now it seems they're also part of the conspiracy.

Quote
Of course, I guess it makes sense that the "16" wouldn't allow Pivar or Fodor to comment or participate in any way since they actually question the extent to which the ToE is a viable theory.


And in other news, we have always been at war with Eastasia.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
Quack



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,11:57   

Quote
We've all seen you guys throw around the crank/liar/insane label often enough to know that you'll work at destroying her reputation as a journalist if she questions your theory.


Really? So we are a "we" now, huh? "We" haven't even been able to destroy your reputation as a crackpot yet...

Unable to see the difference between not having a clue, and just questioning "your theory"?

Is it too much to ask that people invest some time and effort to study 150 years of work by thousands upon thousands of scientists?

Who do you think you are, singlehanded to invalidate 150 years of science, without even looking at the evidence? Not to mention that when it is staring you in the face, you still don't see it.

--------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.
                                                                                               Richard Feynman

  
Texas Teach



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,12:04   

Rational people:  Haha Luskin made a silly mistake.

FTK:  He's not a liar.  They were there. They just weren't part of the 16.

Rational people:  We didn't say he was a liar, we said he made a silly mistake.  And they weren't there at all.

FTK:  Of course they weren't there!  You're all afraid of the Truth!!!!1111!!one

Rational People: <Sigh>

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

  
Quidam



Posts: 229
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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,12:38   

Who IS Suzan Mazur anyway.  She has been described as a 'science reporter' and she says  
Quote
her interest in evolution began with a Cessna single engine flight into Olduvai Gorge, across a closed Kenyan-Tanzanian border, to interview the late paleoanthropologist Mary Leakey. Their meeting followed discovery of the 3.5 million year old hominid footprints by Leakey and her team at Laetoli http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laetoli. Mazur says Leakey was the only reason the Tanzanian authorities agreed to give landing clearance
yet a Google search brings up mostly politial and religious stories.  It's strange how her writings are treated as Gospel and apparently trump direct quotes from the people she discusses in her article.

Much like the credentials of the DI really.  We all know that jounalists and lawyers know more science than scientists.

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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Jim_Wynne



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(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,13:56   

The piranha lady is the perfect example of Luskin's target audience, and proof that he can aim as low as he wants and still hit the target squarely.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,14:24   

Quote (Ftk @ July 18 2008,07:36)
I'm going to try to get in touch with this Mazur chick and find out what's really going on here.

How's that going btw?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
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