RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (3) < [1] 2 3 >   
  Topic: Florida and Antievolution, A broad topic for news and comment< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,00:14   

Here's a thread for talk about Florida and antievolution there.

Florida Citizens for Science Petition Supporting the Proposed Science Standards. Sign on if you want to support the new standards, too.

Just got word that the Highlands County school board has declined to pass a resolution against the proposed science standards. Several other Florida county school boards have passed resolutions asking the state Department of Education to reject the proposed standards because of their inclusion of evolutionary science. In many of those other counties, there was no general advance notice. In Highlands County, though, the word was out ahead of time, and apparently many professors and instructors from institutes of higher education turned out and expressed their opposition to the antievolution resolution. One person spoke in favor of the resolution.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 06 2008,10:18   

And you can give $$$$. :)

How does rejecting standards that include evolutionary science help to "'teach' the 'controversy'"?

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,11:45   

Can I ask the community here to take a few minutes and go sign the Florida Citizens for Science petition in support of the proposed new science standards? This is important. The Department of Education will make its decision on February 19th, and you need to give the FCS time to present it. Don't put it off. Do it now.

And also, if you make a comment, please do add it to the thread at the Panda's Thumb.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,11:04   

The lawyer with the group associated with Focus on the Family is on during the webcast now.

He's giving the "No, we don't want to teach Creationism" lie.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,11:15   

Yep.  They went there.

One of the yahoos in the crowd just brought up Hitler, and how evolution caused the Holocaust.

Oh lovely.  Now he's on about Stalin.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,11:53   

Heh heh.  Lady on now,

"Jesus!  Bible!  Prophesy!  Creation in Seven Days!  Evolution is not a fact, children will cheat on tests!"

It would be hilarious were it not so dangerous.

ACLU guy just got up.

Wesley is doing a much more thorough job, I'd suggest everyone interested head to the Austringer.

Edited by Lou FCD on Feb. 11 2008,12:53

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 1956
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:02   

What is the Spanish for "cat"?

Le chat needs to know.

Bob

--------------
ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:08   

I've said it before, I'll say it again, and many will not agree with me.

We should be going on the offensive.  Chellenging the IDiots in FL to public (or radio) round table discussions with titles like "The evidence for evolution vs the evidence for intelligent design" and let the fundies explain why they refuse to participate in such a round table discussion.  And yeah, chances are the fundies won't show which is telling in itself and would give our side a great opportunity to provde a intro to ToE.

Hook up with a university who'd host such public informational presentations.  Get a radio show to host it.  Instead of reacting to the nonsense we should be pro-actively educating and engaging the public.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:31   

I'm getting a crappy steam from the webcast here.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:34   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 11 2008,13:02)
What is the Spanish for "cat"?

Le chat needs to know.

Bob

El Gato!

El Gato es muy LOL.

DeNada

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,13:43   

OMG FLORIDA IS FULL OF BEAUTS.

:angry:

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
snoeman



Posts: 109
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2008,23:21   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 07 2008,11:45)
Can I ask the community here to take a few minutes and go sign the Florida Citizens for Science petition in support of the proposed new science standards? This is important. The Department of Education will make its decision on February 19th, and you need to give the FCS time to present it. Don't put it off. Do it now.

And also, if you make a comment, please do add it to the thread at the Panda's Thumb.

I signed the petition.  I generally don't post comments at PT, but here's what I said on the petition:

 
Quote
Adopt the standards.  The BOE should disregard the ignorant calls for ID creationism, classic creationism, "balanced treatment", "teaching the controversy", "strengths and weaknesses" or any other euphemism.  Evolutionary theory is some of the most well-supported science we have, and it would be a shame to enable dilution of teaching it because of its perceived threat to the faith of certain people.  We need good science standards and quality science education in all 50 states.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 1956
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2008,00:25   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 11 2008,13:34)
Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 11 2008,13:02)
What is the Spanish for "cat"?

Le chat needs to know.

Bob

El Gato!

Ah, thanks.  But the cat wasn't happy when I told him that (where did he learn his French?).  Now I just have to get the cream out, and he scampers off to hide.

Bob

--------------
ID theorists don’t postulate a designer for their arguments. - Crandaddy
There is no connection between a peppered moth, natural selection, and religion that I can see. - FtK

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 12 2008,17:59   

The webcast video is now available online as downloadable files.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:03   

A teacher's perspective on the science standards

Quote
By ROBIN BROWN
Special to Florida Baptist Witness

Published February 14, 2008

Editor's note: This statement was given at a public hearing on the proposed science standards for Florida held in Jacksonville last month.

Good afternoon, my name is Robin Brown. I am a recently retired teacher from Polk County. I taught for 31 years with the last 15 years being middle school science. I have traveled here today because I feel this topic is one of the most important topics in education and with the over 200,000 ratings of the new science standards, many people in Florida feel the same.

The Florida Science Curriculum Framework states that certain principles supporting the vision for science education should include the evaluation of new ideas and alternative ways of knowing. Students should be encouraged to make well-reasoned decisions and to use the processes of science successfully that include honesty, skepticism, creativity, curiosity, tolerance, open-mindedness and sharing, recognizing the diversity of ideas and acceptance of different views, according to the Framework.

One benchmark in the new proposed science standards stipulates that students "Explain how evolution is demonstrated by the fossil record, extinction, comparative anatomy, comparative embryolgy, biogeography, molecular biology and observed evolutionary change."

Most scientists once said that the fossil record shows that evolution occurred gradually. But today, scientists deny that gradual change can be seen in the fossil record. A few scientists now even question whether fossils necessarily show that evolution itself occurred. Harvard scientist Stephen Jay Gould says the fossil record does not show evolution occurring gradually. "The fossil record with its abrupt transitions," he writes, "offers no support for gradual change." Gould calls these repeated unfilled gaps, "the trade secret of paleontology."

There is a process in the field of science that any discussion of a theory include both "pro" and "con." This practice is observed throughout the scientific community except when the theory of evolution is involved. Whenever evolution is discussed, only the arguments "for" evolution are considered. Scientific evidence "against" evolution is consistently censored.

Sometimes the evolutionary process is questioned, such as gradualism vs. punctuated equilibrium, but all such discussions never question the evolutionary assumption.

Dr. Karl Popper, the world's leading philosopher in science states, "Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research program." Sir Fred Hoyle said, "The chance that higher life forms might have emerged through the evolutionary process is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the material therein."

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:12   

You can see Robin Brown perform in the video from Monday's meeting, too. She is visible through most of the proceedings in the upper left when the forward camera is on the podium. She was frowning and shaking her head when the pro-science people spoke.

Brown offered recommendations for the board to adopt supplemental texts: "Of Pandas and People", Parker and Gish from the ICR, and "Dr." Richard Bliss, also of the ICR, and infamous for the degree mill doctorate from the University of Sarasota. Straight-up "creation science" texts and one re-labeled but discredited "creation science" text.

Brown presents most of what I despise about the antievolution movement.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:18   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 13 2008,12:12)
Brown presents most of what I despise about the antievolution movement.

Fortunately, she does it very publicly, for all to see.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:33   

Is this her?

http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/8408.article

ETA: she cites Popper's critique of evolution, but not his retraction "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation" (Dialectica 32:344-346).
"

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:36   

pssst  Hey, Robin

Stephen Jay Gould is no longer with us.

thought you might wanna know.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:45   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Feb. 13 2008,11:36)
pssst  Hey, Robin

Stephen Jay Gould is no longer with us.

thought you might wanna know.

She's bang up to date.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2008,06:26   

St. Pete Times poll

St. Pete Times Demonstrates that Framing Works

PZ disagrees with me

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Feb. 16 2008,08:29

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2008,23:04   

A compromise in the works?

Quote
A new option for science standards: Adding the phrase the "scientific theory of" before evolution

posted by LesliePostal on Feb 15, 2008 4:58:12 PM

There's a new option (maybe a compromise?) in the works when it comes to Florida's controversial science standards.

The Florida Department of Education is working up a second option for the State Board of Education to consider that would insert the phrase "the scientific theory of" before the word evolution and in other "appropriate places throughout the standards," according to Tom Butler, department spokesman.

The phrase  would also appear in front of Big Bang and and plate tectonics, for example.

This is in response to "the input we've received from the public," he said.

Butler said department officials ran this idea past some of the scientists who helped write the new standards because they wanted to be sure they would remain "scientifically accurate." He said these scientists gave the option their nod of approval.

The new option would not alter the descriptions of evolution as the "fundamental concept underlying all biology" nor as a concept that is "supported by multiple forms of scientific evidence," he said.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2008,08:28   

Quote

Butler said department officials ran this idea past some of the scientists who helped write the new standards because they wanted to be sure they would remain "scientifically accurate." He said these scientists gave the option their nod of approval.


It is necessarily the property of a well-crafted con job that it sound reasonable on first hearing. Congratulations to the anti-science faction on crafting their ploy well.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Annyday



Posts: 583
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2008,10:36   

The scientists are okay with it because it doesn't actually change the meaning, and scientists are concerned mostly with what something actually means. The creationists are okay with it because it backs up their "just a theory!!" talking point. The real question is if any school boards or teachers will actually seize upon the word "theory" as evidence that they can ignore the standards.

Any odds?

--------------
"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4234
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 16 2008,12:30   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Feb. 13 2008,12:36)
pssst  Hey, Robin

Stephen Jay Gould is no longer with us.

thought you might wanna know.

But his departure was quite abrupt, not at all gradual.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2008,15:43   

Luskin writes an op-ed

Read the description and link, then come back here to comment.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10080
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2008,16:21   

The hypocrisy is breathtaking - fabricate a debate regarding evolution (not to say specifics aren't debated, but for the general concept, at K12 level?!) whilst protecting ID from any sort of dialogue (from actually scientists, not school children).

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Steverino



Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2008,17:11   

The more Luskin write tardbabble this, the more dead on the Flying Spaghetti Monster parody becomes.

Casey, why not just STFU and do the science.  Come back when you have some to show.

--------------
- Born right the first time.
- Asking questions is NOT the same as providing answers.
- It's all fun and games until the flying monkeys show up!

   
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2008,20:45   

Oh, he mentions Expelled! Good!
Quote
Imagine you are a scientist with fundamental doubts about Darwinism and you see the top science organization in the USA asserting that your views don't exist.

"Imagine all the pee-puhll-hul-hul,
questionin' Darwini-ism-mmm-mmm-mmm
You may say I'm a failure,
But I'm not the only one." ;)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4465
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2008,07:54   

The Board meeting is on now.

Brandon Haught is also live-blogging over at the Florida Citizens for Science site.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
  73 replies since Feb. 06 2008,00:14 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (3) < [1] 2 3 >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]