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stevestory



Posts: 8994
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,09:06   

ID is starting to meet the legal system and be obliterated. Soon creationists are going to turn to a new strategy. What will the strategy be? I have no idea. But I can tell you what I'd do, if I were them. I would create a system of creationist science classes, and tell parents it's an innoculation against the evils of Darwinism. I'd assemble a network of instructors, which would be creationists with any kind of undergrad science degree. And I'd try to get churches and rich christians to sponsor the meetings. Meetings would be once a week, an hour each time, for perhaps two months. All the creationist 'science' would be taught in those eight lessons. Privileged Planet would be shown, and maybe a tour to a Natural Sciences museum with a creationist tourguide. Since it's not official, no judge could stop me, and I would be able to give the kids creationism with both barrels, not the pussyfooting Intelligent Design business. And a lot of the program would be devoted to things like Icons of Evolution, where scientists are portayed as scheming liars. That way, when the kids do get to high school science classes, they are already suspicious of the whole thing, and find it easier to reject.

That would be my plan. what about the rest of you? What would you do?

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,10:43   

Oh, GREAT, give the other side ideas, why don't you...

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:00   

I believe a lot of this is already being done.  And I don't think they want too much education for the masses.  The more you tell them, the greater the chance that they will be exposed to counterarguments.  Better to keep them dumb and happy (i.e. preach a few fire and brimstone sermons involving original sin and the Garden of Eden).

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:01   

Maybe, after the pendulum swings back and the country realizes that the Bush administration was the worst thing that has ever happened, the religious right will face the fact that that was as close as they'll ever come to actually running the country, and revert to their secessionist mentality.

Here's a letter that appeared in the
the Columbus Dispatch this week:
Quote
Public schools immoral places for children
Monday, February 27, 2006

In December, I submitted a resolution to the State Convention of Baptists in Ohio, urging pastors and parents to investigate the indoctrination of our young people into the homosexual agenda and to encourage concerned Christian parents to remove their children from public schools.

At the heels of the recent 11-4 decision by the State Board of Education to censor any criticism of Darwinian evolution, it has become clear that our young people are being indoctrinated into not only a pro-homosexual, but a humanistic religion, as well. Ohio schools have become officially atheistic, godless and toxic, morally, intellectually and spiritually, to our precious children. Ohio evangelical leaders and pastors must urge parents to remove their children from Pharoah’s oppressive schools and give them a thoroughly Christian education, through either Christian schools or home education. Why send them to Sunday School, only to have their faith torn asunder Monday through Friday? It is time to let the children go.

NICHOLAS A. JACKSON Executive director,
Reform America Ohio coordinator,
Exodus Mandate


--------------
Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:07   

Quote (Russell @ Mar. 04 2006,17:01)
Maybe, after the pendulum swings back and the country realizes that the Bush administration was the worst thing that has ever happened, the religious right will face the fact that that was as close as they'll ever come to actually running the country, and revert to their secessionist mentality.

Here's a letter that appeared in the
the Columbus Dispatch this week:
Quote
Public schools immoral places for children
Monday, February 27, 2006

In December, I submitted a resolution to the State Convention of Baptists in Ohio, urging pastors and parents to investigate the indoctrination of our young people into the homosexual agenda and to encourage concerned Christian parents to remove their children from public schools.

At the heels of the recent 11-4 decision by the State Board of Education to censor any criticism of Darwinian evolution, it has become clear that our young people are being indoctrinated into not only a pro-homosexual, but a humanistic religion, as well. Ohio schools have become officially atheistic, godless and toxic, morally, intellectually and spiritually, to our precious children. Ohio evangelical leaders and pastors must urge parents to remove their children from Pharoah’s oppressive schools and give them a thoroughly Christian education, through either Christian schools or home education. Why send them to Sunday School, only to have their faith torn asunder Monday through Friday? It is time to let the children go.

NICHOLAS A. JACKSON Executive director,
Reform America Ohio coordinator,
Exodus Mandate

I'm cool with letting all those people leave the country. Give them some chunk of South Carolina or north Florida that no one wants, let them have their 'exodus', and put a huge fence around it.

Watch the national elections suddenly start going Democrat. Sounds like a small price to pay.

:p

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:08   

Actually there is one major initiative many right-wing creationists would love to see... ditching public education.  Private schools would avoid any first amendment issues with teaching creationism. The wet dream of all nutjobs on the right everywhere is to abolish that "nest of moral turpitude", the Department of Education.

Needless to say, if they ever get their way, it would be a disaster for this country.

  
stevestory



Posts: 8994
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:13   

a disaster? Why, because it would make Americans into religious nuts who don't know science?

too late.

I'm an atheist who lives in the South. To me, it wouldn't make much difference if every politician in every position in the country, as well as every primary and secondary school teacher, were replaced by Pat Robertson.

What would it change? Would the word god be changed to jesus on the coins in my pocket? would I be asked to put both hands on the bible in court? would the budget of the faith-based initiatives program be doubled? Would Bush stop caring so much about the environment?

I'd hardly notice.

   
stevestory



Posts: 8994
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:25   

I love the christian exodus movement. that's the first time i've seen 'Phaoro....Pharoa...dammit, how do you spell that...Pharoah. that's the first time I've seen 'Pharoah' used in place of 'government'. That's awesome.

Quote
At the heels of the recent 11-4 decision by the State Board of Education to censor any criticism of Darwinian evolution, it has become clear that our young people are being indoctrinated into not only a pro-homosexual, but a humanistic religion, as well.
Oh no, humanistic religion! That's the kind of vile filth that spawned the constitution and individual rights. Damned Erasmus.

   
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:32   

Losing public education would simply make it even harder for the poor and disenfranchised to get a leg up in society.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:37   

If this:
SPeech apparently by a VArdy school head of science
is true, and I have no particular reason to doubt it, they are already having their way in the UK.  The bloke whose speech it apaprently is should be sacked, because of his total lack of comprehension of any science later than Galileo.  The mangling of geology and chemistry is particularly vexing, given that they are subjects I know  something about.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,11:45   

Quote
Losing public education would simply make it even harder for the poor and disenfranchised to get a leg up in society.
I guess I'm allowed to share my political perspective here without fear of alienating potential evo-supporters.

I see the current Republican party as a coalition of plutocrats, religious right, and libertarian/gun, um, enthusiasts. Historically, and I think still, the plutocrat wing has called the shots and largely used the other two factions. But this using of other factions is not entirely a one-way street.

When it comes to abolishing - or just weakening - public education, the interests of the plutocrats and religious right overlap.

--------------
Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
George



Posts: 313
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,12:57   

I really don't think eliminating public education is on the cards.  Emasculating it, yes, in the way the Bush administration and local governement are already doing it.  Starving it of funds.

The week after Dover, I read a newspaper piece by a conservative Christian commentator (Cal Thomas I think?), saying that it was probably the best thing for creationists.  His opinion was that they instead spend their money and energies in home-schooling and Christian schools and so forth, rather than trying to force their agenda onto public schools.

The idea of a large-scale fundamentalist education secession is really scary to me.  Right now, the fundamentalists are at least exposed to some outside influences.  In a little fundie, hothouse cocoon they'll really be indoctrinated to believe that they are God's chosen.  If you never meet or talk to anyone with a different point of view from yours, it becomes easy to demonise whatever groups you think are threatening you.  Or are vulnerable enough to pick on.  Get enough of them, and we'll really start seeing some Christian jihads.  

Maybe even a war with those godless, arrogant, liberal Europeans (once the Muslims have been finished off).  Probably over something like the proper thing to call chipped, fried potatoes.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,15:34   

Quote
The idea of a large-scale fundamentalist education secession is really scary to me.  Right now, the fundamentalists are at least exposed to some outside influences.  In a little fundie, hothouse cocoon they'll really be indoctrinated to believe that they are God's chosen.


it's starting to sound like the plotline from the current season of Stargate on the Sci Fi channel.

and I'm sure you've seen the christian exodus site, yes?

http://www.christianexodus.org/

  
stevestory



Posts: 8994
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2006,15:40   

I'm watching that right now on the tivo. This Ori thing is kind of interesting. they're a better enemy than the Gou'auou'uould

   
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2006,14:01   

I think that idea might prove too expensive in the long run. Or at least it would seem that way to the financial recourses of the ID movement. It's true that constant long-term funding is already in effect, but it would be the first time it would be presented as essential for its future planning. And all the fundie funders who were promised fast results via PR and legal actions, will finally start to realise that the whole ID promoting scheme is a money pit.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2006,04:48   

Would they be clones of Steven J Gou'auou'uould?

Sworn to battle creationists wherever in the galaxy they are?

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2006,09:04   

Quote
Oh no, humanistic religion! That's the kind of vile filth that spawned the constitution and individual rights. Damned Erasmus.

Folly got us this far, no telling where she leads.

I made a post on my blog about christian exodus a while back. They aren't looking too busy these days. No tally how many have made it etc. One thing though, I've heard Christians are cannibals who routinely use human sacrifice to appease their god. That ought to limit the population if they all go to one place.
:0

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
stevestory



Posts: 8994
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2006,10:42   

I also didn't see a tally, so last year I emailed them. I was disappointed when they said they had around 700 people so far. I was hoping it was more like 7 million.

   
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2006,11:21   

I bet those 700 are quite a bunch.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2006,15:36   

go take a gander at their forum some time and see.

It's mind boggling.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2006,21:28   

I think it's quite naive for "scientists" to continue to believe that only they can define science while it is clear to the rest of us ignorant folks that science is being define by judges, teacher's unions, liberal activist groups and so on and so forth.  Why not be defined by ID activists?  This is the fail-proof strategy?  

The gall in thinking that only scientists and those in the clique could define science while others are left to the sidelines, voiceless and oppressed, is so repungantly totalitarian that it is doomed to extinction in a society based on equality, tolerance and non-discrimination.

The masses will not stand for this elitists mentality that only serves to fatten the pockets and egos of those same elitists whether they be highminded scientists or low-brow liberal politicians.  What's fair is fair.

This is purely a propaganda war and the scientists need to quit thinking they can win this in the lab.  The fight is elsewhere.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2006,21:30   

that's right, shake your fist harder, boy!

  
hehe



Posts: 59
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2006,22:52   

Quote
The masses will not stand for this elitists mentality that only serves to fatten the pockets and egos of those same elitists whether they be highminded scientists or low-brow liberal politicians.


The unwashed masses, no less!  :D  :D

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2006,22:58   

So what is your definition of science, thordaddy?  Throwing rocks?

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2006,23:30   

guthrie,

That's the point.  The definition of science is out of the scientist's hands?

  
hehe



Posts: 59
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2006,00:17   

You did not answer the question, Boywithanidioticnickname.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2006,01:13   

So, basically thordaddy is saying that the definition of science right now is out of scientists hands, and presumably is in public hands or, even, judges!  OR teachers!

You'll excuse me if I wonder why you seem to think this is the case.  Sure, I know about the Dover ruling.  I understand that both parties deferred to certain broadly agreed standards of science (That had been thought up by scientists) early on in the trial.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2006,02:51   

Thorthingymagingy. What you are really saying is that the fundie population of America should define what science is, not just for America, but also the rest of the world. Arrogant!

Kiss my *ss! You should go far in life boy, the futher, the better. :angry:

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2006,09:21   

If this is the level of exchange to be most commonly found within "scientific" community then it should be clear that the battle with be lost to those with much more persuasive verbal skills in the court of public opinion.

Renier opines,

What you are really saying is that the fundie population of America should define what science is, not just for America, but also the rest of the world. Arrogant!


No, actually I am saying that it is no more unfair for religious people to try and define science as it has been for judges, teachers, politicians and the like to define science.  Do you have a problem with this notion?  

What is science?

It is the interpretation of empirical evidence and the subsequent meaning given to those interpretations.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2006,09:34   

Quote
If this is the level of exchange to be most commonly found within "scientific" community then it should be clear that the battle with be lost to those with much more persuasive verbal skills in the court of public opinion.


BWAHAHAHAHA!

funniest thing I've seen so far today.

  
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