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  Topic: Their Own Version of a Big Bang, Ken Ham tells lies to kids< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2006,01:28   

Quote
# Those who believe in creationism -- children and adults -- are being taught to challenge evolution's tenets in an in-your-face way.

By Stephanie Simon, Times Staff Writer

WAYNE, N.J. — Evangelist Ken Ham smiled at the 2,300 elementary students packed into pews, their faces rapt. With dinosaur puppets and silly cartoons, he was training them to reject much of geology, paleontology and evolutionary biology as a sinister tangle of lies.

"Boys and girls," Ham said. If a teacher so much as mentions evolution, or the Big Bang, or an era when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, "you put your hand up and you say, 'Excuse me, were you there?' Can you remember that?"

The children roared their assent.

"Sometimes people will answer, 'No, but you weren't there either,' " Ham told them. "Then you say, 'No, I wasn't, but I know someone who was, and I have his book about the history of the world.' " He waved his Bible in the air.

"Who's the only one who's always been there?" Ham asked.

"God!" the boys and girls shouted.

"Who's the only one who knows everything?"

"God!"

"So who should you always trust, God or the scientists?"

The children answered with a thundering: "God!"


Read it here.

   
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2006,05:41   

This is likely to make teaching science pretty unpopular in a few years.
The antics of ID/Creationists are truly jaw-dropping. :(

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2006,06:25   

Ah yes, Ken Ham passing off a religious pep rally as science. It's tough to counter such nonsense since scientists cannot allow themselves to stoop this low. Sadly, it's not a level playing field when it comes to educating our kids.

  
PuckSR



Posts: 314
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2006,07:47   

Quote
Ah yes, Ken Ham passing off a religious pep rally as science.


Ummm....I dont think he is even trying to pass this off as science.  I think he is being purely religious here.

**Suggestion**

Let's make Science, History, and English Literature Classes optional.  The kids dont have to take these classes...if their parents do not want them to take these classes...but they get a different diploma....

Something that says....This kid has absolutely no education in the following fields:blah, blah, blah.  Why fight them, if the parents want to screw theses kids up, they will more than likely succeed.

BTW, they can mention that it was only theories and narratives when they apply for a job or college.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10349
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2006,08:02   

There's a southern way of using the word 'ignorant' which befits Ken Ham. It means ignorant, but also hopeless.

That boy's just ignrnt

   
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2006,09:00   

PuckSR said.
Quote
Let's make Science, History, and English Literature Classes optional.  The kids dont have to take these classes...if their parents do not want them to take these classes...but they get a different diploma....


As sad as it sounds, that might be the only sensible option for some schools if every single lesson was disrupted.
It is better to get some of the kids educated than none.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10349
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2006,09:14   

this reminds me of:

Quote
"Officials in Georgia have mandated that schools continue to use the word evolution when teaching science. However, as a compromise, dinosaurs are now called 'Jesus horses'."

-- Jimmy Fallon

   
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,10:14   

When the U.S. ranks dead last among developed nations in science and math, maybe the IDiots running this country will realize that they've shot themselves in the foot financially with this silly superstition.

Nothing will wake up a right-wing fundamentalist like a wallop to the wallet.

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,10:24   

:02-->
Quote (stevestory @ Feb. 11 2006,14:02)
There's a southern way of using the word 'ignorant' which befits Ken Ham. It means ignorant, but also hopeless.

That boy's just ignrnt

Bull.  He's pulling $120K a year.  He's a shrewd con artist.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,11:00   

He's only saying what the "mainstream" IDiots wish they could say.  The biggest difference between this guy and what Dembski/Behe/the Disco is that he tells the truth and the others lie or cloak their true opinions in psuedo-scifi speak.

I say give him a medal for being honest.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,12:40   

This is why science can't get through to creationists. They are brainwashed at an early age - and for at least the duration of their childhood.

Now ask yourself how a child who has been exposed to that kind of crap throughout their whole life can be expected to accept the science of evolution. That would mean accepting that your parents, friends, religious leaders, all of those people you've loved and looked up to ever since you can remember have been lying to you. Try to imagine the psychological trauma you would have to put yourself through just to accept one simple scientific fact. Could you do it? Or, instead, when faced with "evidence", would you come up with rationalizations and conspiracy theories to protect yourself from the pain.

Face it. These kids are just screwed.  No amount of reasoning is likely to change that.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,19:22   

I grew up in a creationist, calvinistic environment. From early childhood till end of High School.

Then I found TalkOrigins. and www.infidels.org. Funny reason, but I was trying to get hold of some Mark Twain writings to read. Then I found Robert Green Ingersol, Thomas Paine etc.

Today, I am FREE! So there is hope for those kids. Most of my friends are also free, although some are somewhere in Africa doing "The Lords Work".

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,20:13   

Quote
Face it. These kids are just screwed.  No amount of reasoning is likely to change that.


while a bit of an extreme statement, the reasoning behind it is EXACTLY why we struggle so hard to make sure IDC doesn't ever get taught as "science" in our public school systems.

it's like teaching your kids that crack is OK, because your parents smoke it.

  
PuckSR



Posts: 314
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,20:42   

Whoa...Whoa...Whoa

Quote
Then I found TalkOrigins. and www.infidels.org. Funny reason, but I was trying to get hold of some Mark Twain writings to read. Then I found Robert Green Ingersol, Thomas Paine etc.


Your really going to have to explain that one to me.  I didnt realize Mark Twain was particularly popular with the  Christian crowd....plus...I really dont understand why you were looking for Mark Twain at TalkOrigins.  I am hoping that a hilarious story is behind this one.


Ok...back on topic.
I dont think that the kids are going to be put through a traumatic experience if they ever get out....
I have a friend who was raised with the strict fundamentalist upbringing....and now he rejects most religion.  The funny thing, however, is that he still doesnt believe that WE are apes.  He is ok with all of evolution and that stuff....but we did not come from Apes....he is confident of that.

I think the only real side effect of the hyper-religious upbringing is that you wind up with shattered traits.  You might have a kid who refuses to drink alcohol...but he doesnt have any reason for his action.  You might have one who refuses to believe in Evolution...despite being an agnostic(??an agnostic who believes in God??-->DaveScot).  Im not worried about the ones who stay religious....at least you understand their behavior....it is the ones who get "free" but maintain some of their religious beliefs.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2006,21:22   

Quote
He is ok with all of evolution and that stuff....but we did not come from Apes....he is confident of that.


and what happens when you try to challenge his belief on this issue?

bet he gets all defensive, eh?

so he's perfectly alright, except for certain bits...

that's called cognitive dissonance, and it's what characterizes the bulk of ID supporters who decide they need to post on this site.

it's also the result of teaching stuff that has no rational basis, like ID.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,00:26   

Quote (improvius @ Feb. 13 2006,18:40)
This is why science can't get through to creationists. They are brainwashed at an early age - and for at least the duration of their childhood.

Now ask yourself how a child who has been exposed to that kind of crap throughout their whole life can be expected to accept the science of evolution. That would mean accepting that your parents, friends, religious leaders, all of those people you've loved and looked up to ever since you can remember have been lying to you. Try to imagine the psychological trauma you would have to put yourself through just to accept one simple scientific fact. Could you do it? Or, instead, when faced with "evidence", would you come up with rationalizations and conspiracy theories to protect yourself from the pain.

Face it. These kids are just screwed.  No amount of reasoning is likely to change that.

I disagree.

I think it is possible to educate almost anyone. It might take time and effort though.

Seems to me that "Artist in Training" has realised what a crock ID is. That is at least two people that these sites have educated (myself being number two).

I am sure there must be some "lurkers" who have also been shown that ID is a lie. We just don't know it for a fact, unless they post (hint to lurkers).

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,06:35   

Quote
Renier - "Then I found Robert Green Ingersol..."


Although I was never a fundamentalist I was once a believer as well and Robert Ingersoll's writings did more to expedite my atheism than any other person or ideology.  Ingersoll was my first glimpse into knowing there were in fact others who thought (and doubted) like myself.

Evolution had absolutely NOTHING to do with my decision to drop kick my faith.  The creationists should be trying to ban Ingersoll and leave evolution alone :-)

For those unfamiliar -  

Robert Ingersoll complete works

And...

Robert Ingersoll Wiki Pages

And I'll leave you with this Ingersoll quote:

"The man who invented the telescope found out more about heaven than the closed eyes of prayer ever discovered. "

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
BWE



Posts: 1898
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,10:26   

Quote
Somebody ought to tell the truth about the Bible. The preachers dare not, because they would be driven from their pulpits. Professors in colleges dare not, because they would lose their salaries. Politicians dare not. They would be defeated. Editors dare not. They would lose subscribers. Merchants dare not, because they might lose customers. Men of fashion dare not, fearing that they would lose caste. Even clerks dare not, because they might be discharged. And so I thought I would do it myself.

There are many millions of people who believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God -- millions who think that this book is staff and guide, counselor and consoler; that it fills the present with peace and the future with hope -- millions who believe that it is the fountain of law, Justice and mercy, and that to its wise and benign teachings the world is indebted for its liberty, wealth and civilization -- millions who imagine that this book is a revelation from the wisdom and love of God to the brain and heart of man -- millions who regard this book as a torch that conquers the darkness of death, and pours its radiance on another world -- a world without a tear.

They forget its ignorance and savagery, its hatred of liberty, its religious persecution; they remember heaven, but they forget the dungeon of eternal pain. They forget that it imprisons the brain and corrupts the heart. They forget that it is the enemy of intellectual freedom. Liberty is my religion. Liberty of hand and brain -- of thought and labor, liberty is a word hated by kings -- loathed by popes. It is a word that shatters thrones and altars -- that leaves the crowned without subjects, and the outstretched hand of superstition without alms. Liberty is the blossom and fruit of justice -- the perfume of mercy. Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy.

http://www.infidels.org/library....le.html

Wow, the rest is worth a read. Carol, if you read this post, you should follow this link.

My favorite rant on the stupidity of religious faithful and religion in general is Philip Wylie's "The Magic Animal".

Thanks for the tip on R.I.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
BWE



Posts: 1898
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,10:56   

Mr. Christopher, I was inspired to add your comment above to  my blog.

Since I did it without your express permission I give my appologies and editing rights to you if you feel I have misrepresented you.

BWE :)

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,12:15   

Quote (BWE @ Feb. 14 2006,16:56)
Mr. Christopher, I was inspired to add your comment above to  my blog.

Since I did it without your express permission I give my appologies and editing rights to you if you feel I have misrepresented you.

BWE :)

BWE, I am flattered my comments made an impression on you.  Feel free to quote me anytime.

I think there is some irony here somewhere.  Is there anyone on earth who started doubting their faith only after they read some Darwin or Stevie Gould?  I doubt it.  I think the creationists give Darwin/evolution far too much credit.

Initially I rejected my former faith on pure moral and common sense grounds and it was years later that I would read up on evolution.  Evolution did not provide a foundation for my lack of faith nor did it (or does it) contribute to my current lack of faith.  I think this is probably true for most folks.

Contrary to what the creationists believe the seeds of doubt do not need to be nourished by some biological theory or fact (and anyone who pins their faith on IC and mouse trap analagies is a fool to be sure).  All it takes to lose ones faith is a little common sense and the desire to ask oneself uncomfortable questions.

Reading folks like Ingersoll helped me because I began to realize there are others who share similar doubts who are not afraid to ask the questions.

Anyhow, cheers!

Mr C

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,13:21   

Churches make many, many more atheists than science classes.

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
BWE



Posts: 1898
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,14:31   

And, good education helps too. That is why the YEC/ID/dumbfolks are after science. They can keep Letters From the Earth and Robert Ingersol out of most classes on religious grounds but science utterly shatters any possible hope you might find in salvaging biblical literalism and thus church (as an organization) power and relevancy and you can't take it out on religious grounds.  :0

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
PuckSR



Posts: 314
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2006,17:57   

Quote
and what happens when you try to challenge his belief on this issue?

bet he gets all defensive, eh?


Actually he doesnt.  He takes a position that I believe many people take.  He has his beliefs, and he really doesnt care. He is not strictly pro-ID...he just doesnt understand the big deal.

We frequently interact with people who are very hostile to the opposite side....but many Americans are simply ignorant of the very plain and rational arguments against ID.

AIT was actually in this camp....he didnt see why we had to be sooo mean to ID supporters....then he finally realized that we had a good reason for being hostile.  The people who honestly believe in ID are few and far between.  Most people are either Fundamentalist Christians who have an agenda....or they just think that secular scientists are being mean.  We have no hope of changing the Fundamentalists minds...they are already firm in their beliefs.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2006,11:58   

Quote (PuckSR @ Feb. 14 2006,23:57)
but many Americans are simply ignorant of the very plain and rational arguments against ID.

 The people who honestly believe in ID are few and far between.  Most people are either Fundamentalist Christians who have an agenda....or they just think that secular scientists are being mean.  We have no hope of changing the Fundamentalists minds...they are already firm in their beliefs.

I think its broadly similar over here in the UK.  

Of the letters in my local paper sympathetic to ID, the wonders of google have revealed that at least half the correpsondents are church ministers or heavily involved in evangelical stuff.  Several more of the pro Id people just werent of a high enough profile on the internet for me to be able to find out if they were coming at it from a religious perspective.  
 
I just had to tell one of them in a letter that Anthony Flew was converted to deism by an alleged lack of scientific evidence for early life forms evolution, rather than the overwhelming evidence for design in life that the pro-ID bloke (a church minister I believe) claimed.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2006,00:48   

Quote
Your really going to have to explain that one to me.  I didnt realize Mark Twain was particularly popular with the  Christian crowd....plus...I really dont understand why you were looking for Mark Twain at TalkOrigins.  I am hoping that a hilarious story is behind this one.


Sorry for only now replying. Been busy with some re-enactment (SCA) stuff.

Mark Twain was not populer at all with the xtians. Lot's of his stuff got banned. I never knew that, only read the Tom and Huck books. So, I went looking for more. Found them at www.infidels.org, read them (Letters from the Earth and The War Prayer). By the time Twain was through with Noah's Flood I realised that my "beliefs" might not have been all it was cracked up to be. Then I read Ingersol and found a link to TalkOrigins on www.infidels.org. I read "How to be Saved" by Ingersol and uh... it cleared up a lot of confusion I had at that time. It was the first ever "critic" stuff to the xtian religion I came across, and it was devistating (devilstating :-)). Then, the church creationist lies got exposed by talkorigins and I dumped the whole rotten sack of lies and dishonesty and never looked back.

I am still "spiritual" in a strange way and from a strange source, but I am "strong" atheist.

  
Spike



Posts: 49
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2006,15:24   

In his "Secular Humanist Revival Meeting" from the mid-80's Orson Scott Card (remember him?) predicted that the children of creationists would dam-n their parents for the lies they told. He predicted that not only would they dam-n their parents for the lies they told about science and the world but doubly so for the lies they told about God.

When I was a Christian, I thought people like Ken Ham were wolves in sheep’s' clothing. I knew that what they said had no foundations in the Bible or God's Will. I likened Ken Ham to the kinds of believers Jesus criticized for praying in public and flaunting their "true belief."

Later, on that wonderful Jim Henson TV program, “Dinosaurs,” the Grandmother Dinosaur died and came back. She was talked into doing a TV (DV?) show, telling everyone what “The Other Side” was like, then the host would get the viewers to send in money so they could get to The Other Side. Grandma died again, and was visited by the ghost of her late husband who admonished her, “Anyone who sells The Other Side will never see The Other Side!”

Sometimes, I wish Jesus would come back and smite liars like Ken Ham. The fact that He doesn’t makes me wonder if He is real or not…

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2006,15:30   

Quote
Sometimes, I wish Jesus would come back and smite liars like Ken Ham. The fact that He doesn’t makes me wonder if He is real or not…


doubtless Ham himself wonders that too, he just doesn't admit it.

  
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