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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
timothya



Posts: 271
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,06:22   

Quote
Anybody beside BA77 left without posting privileges?

Please, yes. Oh, please, please, please may His Noodly Appendages reach down and grant us evidence of a supernatural event. Please allow Quantum Woo Joy to be unconstrained.

Damn, I have to stop doing the praying thing.

  
BillB



Posts: 388
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,06:53   

Quote (timothya @ July 08 2013,09:50)
Niwrad is given posting rights at UD and produces this:
 
Quote
Corollary of the 2nd law.In an isolated system, organization never increases spontaneously. Hence the 2nd law refutes evolution.

Doing well until the end of the first sentence.

If Nirwad is to be believed then humans routinely violate the SLoT - perhaps someone could ask him if there are any other laws of nature that people can violate by virtue of being intelligent enough?

If not then it ought to be headline news - The second law of thermodynamics is the one and only law of nature that is violated on a daily basis - perhaps when those silly scientists catch on they will stop calling it a law, because it obviously can't be a law of nature if it keeps getting broken.

  
BillB



Posts: 388
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,07:04   

Quote (BillB @ July 08 2013,12:53)
Quote (timothya @ July 08 2013,09:50)
Niwrad is given posting rights at UD and produces this:
 
Quote
Corollary of the 2nd law.In an isolated system, organization never increases spontaneously. Hence the 2nd law refutes evolution.

Doing well until the end of the first sentence.

If Nirwad is to be believed then humans routinely violate the SLoT - perhaps someone could ask him if there are any other laws of nature that people can violate by virtue of being intelligent enough?

If not then it ought to be headline news - The second law of thermodynamics is the one and only law of nature that is violated on a daily basis - perhaps when those silly scientists catch on they will stop calling it a law, because it obviously can't be a law of nature if it keeps getting broken.

Perhaps what he means is that 'intelligence' is the organisational equivalent of a heat pump.

A heat pump can increase the temperature in one area at the expense of another by doing work.

An intelligence can increase the organisation in one area at the expense of another by doing work.

Therefore the act of creation would produce a terrible mess - EUREKA - now we know why the universe is so large and not full of life! It is the decrease in organisation everywhere else caused by the local increase in organisation here when everything was created precisely 5-6000 years ago(ish).

Take that evilutionists - your compensation argument proves jesus!

  
timothya



Posts: 271
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,07:51   

I sometimes wish that creationists had to consciously suffer the SLoT consequences of their stupid.

  
stevestory



Posts: 12596
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,09:12   

Quote (timothya @ July 08 2013,04:50)
Niwrad is given posting rights at UD and produces this:
 
Quote
Corollary of the 2nd law.In an isolated system, organization never increases spontaneously. Hence the 2nd law refutes evolution.

Doing well until the end of the first sentence.

Derp.

   
stevestory



Posts: 12596
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,09:14   

CF000: Second Law of Thermodynamics and Information Theory

   (see also CB102: Mutations don't add information.)
   (see also CE441: Big Bang doesn't produce information.)
   CF001. The second law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution.
       CF001.1. Systems left to themselves invariably tend toward disorder.
       CF001.2. The second law of thermodynamics, and the trend to disorder, is universal.
       CF001.3. Instructions are necessary to produce order.
       CF001.4. The second law is about organized complexity, not entropy.
       CF001.5. Evolution needs an energy conversion mechanism to utilize energy.
   CF002. Complexity does not come from simplicity.
       CF002.1. Tornadoes in junkyards do not build things.
   CF003. How could information, such as in DNA, assemble itself?
   CF005. 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to information theory.
   CF010. Cybernetic simulations show that Darwinian processes do not produce order.
   CF011. Evolutionary algorithms smuggle in design in the fitness function.
       CF011.1. The outcome of Dawkins's WEASEL program was prespecified.
       CF011.2. NFL theorems prove that evolutionary algorithms do not beat blind search.

Index to Creationist Claims

   
k.e..



Posts: 5373
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,09:47   

Quote (BillB @ July 08 2013,15:04)
Quote (BillB @ July 08 2013,12:53)
Quote (timothya @ July 08 2013,09:50)
Niwrad is given posting rights at UD and produces this:
   
Quote
Corollary of the 2nd law.In an isolated system, organization never increases spontaneously. Hence the 2nd law refutes evolution.

Doing well until the end of the first sentence.

If Nirwad is to be believed then humans routinely violate the SLoT - perhaps someone could ask him if there are any other laws of nature that people can violate by virtue of being intelligent enough?

If not then it ought to be headline news - The second law of thermodynamics is the one and only law of nature that is violated on a daily basis - perhaps when those silly scientists catch on they will stop calling it a law, because it obviously can't be a law of nature if it keeps getting broken.

Perhaps what he means is that 'intelligence' is the organisational equivalent of a heat pump.

A heat pump can increase the temperature in one area at the expense of another by doing work.

An intelligence can increase the organisation in one area at the expense of another by doing work.

Therefore the act of creation would produce a terrible mess - EUREKA - now we know why the universe is so large and not full of life! It is the decrease in organisation everywhere else caused by the local increase in organisation here when everything was created precisely 5-6000 years ago(ish).

Take that evilutionists - your compensation argument proves jesus!

Yeah well god must have created creationists to prove the slot is true… their disorder is at least a balance for not science but maybe "Amerika can Dance" or some other soap seller on TV. Creationism a Bizzarow world free of any talent whatsoever except for a pathological desire to lie for Jesus.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
k.e..



Posts: 5373
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,09:53   

Quote (stevestory @ July 08 2013,17:14)
CF000: Second Law of Thermodynamics and Information Theory

   (see also CB102: Mutations don't add information.)
   (see also CE441: Big Bang doesn't produce information.)
   CF001. The second law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution.
       CF001.1. Systems left to themselves invariably tend toward disorder.
       CF001.2. The second law of thermodynamics, and the trend to disorder, is universal.
       CF001.3. Instructions are necessary to produce order.
       CF001.4. The second law is about organized complexity, not entropy.
       CF001.5. Evolution needs an energy conversion mechanism to utilize energy.
   CF002. Complexity does not come from simplicity.
       CF002.1. Tornadoes in junkyards do not build things.
   CF003. How could information, such as in DNA, assemble itself?
   CF005. 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to information theory.
   CF010. Cybernetic simulations show that Darwinian processes do not produce order.
   CF011. Evolutionary algorithms smuggle in design in the fitness function.
       CF011.1. The outcome of Dawkins's WEASEL program was prespecified.
       CF011.2. NFL theorems prove that evolutionary algorithms do not beat blind search.

Index to Creationist Claims

I wonder how they explain away the proton gradient?..... nicth  I know moron attraction.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11175
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,10:36   

http://www.intothecool.com/....ool.com

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,10:46   

Thanks for the link!
My city library has it, I've requested a hold and transfer to my local branch.

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,11:14   

So nirwad's argument seems to be that there is a hole between order and "functional hierarchies and CSI", so things fall into that hole. Looks like Gaulinese to me.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,11:25   

Quote (Driver @ July 08 2013,11:14)
So nirwad's argument seems to be that there is a hole between order and "functional hierarchies and CSI", so things fall into that hole. Looks like Gaulinese to me.

Testing new Niwrad sig line.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1100
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,11:46   

I like how they praise physics against evolutionary theory (oh, it's so precise), until it gets to the second law.  Then it's f..k that junk.

Basically, any science is potentially a burnt offering to their Designer.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,15:43   

niwrad:
Quote
Elizabeth B Liddle

I appreciated very much your words. I am honoured to discuss with a Lady who prefers to spend time to grasp SLoT, CSI, DNA.. instead of cinema’s stars, beauty products, gossip..


--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1216
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,16:18   

Quote (keiths @ July 08 2013,21:43)
niwrad:
 
Quote
Elizabeth B Liddle

I appreciated very much your words. I am honoured to discuss with a Lady who prefers to spend time to grasp SLoT, CSI, DNA.. instead of cinema’s stars, beauty products, gossip..

:D

Oh, I know how he feels....it's just great when you happen upon a Jew who doesn't hoard money!

Edited by Woodbine on July 08 2013,22:19

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,17:05   

Quote (Woodbine @ July 08 2013,16:18)
Quote (keiths @ July 08 2013,21:43)
niwrad:
 
Quote
Elizabeth B Liddle

I appreciated very much your words. I am honoured to discuss with a Lady who prefers to spend time to grasp SLoT, CSI, DNA.. instead of cinema’s stars, beauty products, gossip..

:D

Oh, I know how he feels....it's just great when you happen upon a Jew who doesn't hoard money!

As rare as a creationist who hasn't committed incest.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2324
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,17:25   

Quote (keiths @ July 08 2013,15:43)
niwrad:
   
Quote
Elizabeth B Liddle

I appreciated very much your words. I am honoured to discuss with a Lady who prefers to spend time to grasp SLoT, CSI, DNA.. instead of cinema’s stars, beauty products, gossip..

Liz would probably like to discuss with a Man who grasped those concepts too.

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2013,23:57   

A philosophical discussion: Can we have certain knowledge of anything?

KeithS says he cannot, for example, be 100% certain of his identity.

Barb provides a watertight, unassailable counterargument:

 
Quote
What’s the name on your driver’s license?  Does that tell you anything?


--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2013,03:17   

Quote (Driver @ July 08 2013,21:57)
A philosophical discussion: Can we have certain knowledge of anything?

KeithS says he cannot, for example, be 100% certain of his identity.

Barb provides a watertight, unassailable counterargument:

Quote
What’s the name on your driver’s license?  Does that tell you anything?

The UDers are as bad at philosophy as they are at science. To absolutely no one's surprise, I'm sure.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2013,03:33   

Quote (keiths @ July 09 2013,01:17)
Quote (Driver @ July 08 2013,21:57)
A philosophical discussion: Can we have certain knowledge of anything?

KeithS says he cannot, for example, be 100% certain of his identity.

Barb provides a watertight, unassailable counterargument:

Quote
What’s the name on your driver’s license?  Does that tell you anything?

The UDers are as bad at philosophy as they are at science. To absolutely no one's surprise, I'm sure.

My favorite Barbarisms from that thread:

Barb:
Quote
Putting aside philosophical arguments for a second, you stated that DonaldM might be dreaming (have you ever typed anything while dreaming? I haven’t. Sleepwalking would be a better argument), hallucinating (again, hallucinations cause us to see things, not do them), or in the Matrix.

keiths:
Quote
Umm, Barb — I’m talking about typing something in the dream, not typing something in reality while dreaming.

Barb:
Quote
Then, logically, DonaldM could pinch himself to make sure he’s awake, alert, and conscious and not dreaming. Problem solved.


--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2013,04:02   

Quote (keiths @ July 09 2013,09:33)
Quote (keiths @ July 09 2013,01:17)
 
Quote (Driver @ July 08 2013,21:57)
A philosophical discussion: Can we have certain knowledge of anything?

KeithS says he cannot, for example, be 100% certain of his identity.

Barb provides a watertight, unassailable counterargument:

Quote
What’s the name on your driver’s license?  Does that tell you anything?

The UDers are as bad at philosophy as they are at science. To absolutely no one's surprise, I'm sure.

My favorite Barbarisms from that thread:

Barb:
Quote
Putting aside philosophical arguments for a second, you stated that DonaldM might be dreaming (have you ever typed anything while dreaming? I haven’t. Sleepwalking would be a better argument), hallucinating (again, hallucinations cause us to see things, not do them), or in the Matrix.

keiths:
Quote
Umm, Barb — I’m talking about typing something in the dream, not typing something in reality while dreaming.

Barb:
Quote
Then, logically, DonaldM could pinch himself to make sure he’s awake, alert, and conscious and not dreaming. Problem solved.

Inception must have confused the hell out of her.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Amadan



Posts: 1335
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2013,05:19   

Did I sleep through Inception?



Edited by stevestory on July 09 2013,12:16

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
stevestory



Posts: 12596
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2013,11:12   

Quote (keiths @ July 09 2013,04:33)
Barb:
Quote
Then, logically, DonaldM could pinch himself to make sure he’s awake, alert, and conscious and not dreaming. Problem solved.

somebody invite this lady over here stat! This could be a goldmine.

Start a Philosophy of Science With Barb thread and ask her to come on over.

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2013,11:25   

Quote (stevestory @ July 09 2013,09:12)
Quote (keiths @ July 09 2013,04:33)
Barb:  
Quote
Then, logically, DonaldM could pinch himself to make sure he’s awake, alert, and conscious and not dreaming. Problem solved.

somebody invite this lady over here stat! This could be a goldmine.

Start a Philosophy of Science With Barb thread and ask her to come on over.

I'm adding Barb to my Peer Review Board for Gary Gaulin.  It also includes afdave, batshit77, Thrinaxodon and the Timecube bloke.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11175
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2013,23:58   

For the Merica am a Christain Nation thread:

http://supreme.justia.com/cases....se.html

Quote
Id. at 143 U. S. 471. I should think the potential of this doctrine to allow judges to substitute their personal predelictions for the will of the Congress is so self-evident from the case which spawned it as to require no further discussion of its susceptibility to abuse.


Oops!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2013,02:39   

I'm so grateful niwrad has explained his metaphor further and added some more for good measure.


 
Quote
You have a ball forced by gravity. You have zones of the mountain the ball can reach. You have zones of the mountain the ball cannot reach. The SLoT says what is the “no parking” zone. You persist to deny clear evidence and continue to claim that in the history of Earth infinite balls went and still stay permanently in the “no parking” zone.


Okay, now I understand. The "hole" is in front of a parking lot. The system is a ball. Just as a ball can't fall upwards, entropy in a closed system can't decrease, but if it does then it must climb the "organization  slope" which it can't do because of the hole. There is clear evidence that in the history of Earth infinite systems went somewhere and you can't get to No Parking because of the hole.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2013,02:58   

I think this will make it clearer:




The ball climbs the slope, but it falls down the hole (can't park) and reappears at the coin return slot, like a cue ball in pool.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2013,11:21   

Ah,  the Sisyphus theory.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2013,12:34   

Quote (Driver @ July 10 2013,00:58)
I think this will make it clearer:




The ball climbs the slope, but it falls down the hole (can't park) and reappears at the coin return slot, like a cue ball in pool.

Do I see a golf ball and a garden hose?

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2013,12:50   

Quote (JohnW @ July 10 2013,12:34)
Quote (Driver @ July 10 2013,00:58)
I think this will make it clearer:




The ball climbs the slope, but it falls down the hole (can't park) and reappears at the coin return slot, like a cue ball in pool.

Do I see a golf ball and a garden hose?

Well, I'm sure Gordon and JoeG do.

  
  10669 replies since Aug. 31 2011,21:06 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

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