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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
k.e..



Posts: 2838
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,07:07   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 17 2012,14:01)
Quote
What do creationists give us?

A pretty damn decent communal piss pot.

The Designer moves in mysterious ways.

That explains why creationists are No.2

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"Abbie Smith (ERV) who's got to be the most obnoxious arrogant snot I've ever seen except for when I look in a mirror" DAVE TARD
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 495
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,07:10   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 17 2012,06:09)
       
Quote (Soapy Sam @ Feb. 17 2012,03:20)
             
Quote
Jesus, I can still log in!  My last post disappeared, but this is what it was:

                       
Quote
dmullenix February 17, 9451 at 1:29 pm

Bully, you flaming asshole, the answer is “Yes"! Now ban me, damn it!

I'm feeling seriously unclean still being able to log in!

By the way, I have no idea where that year and time came from.  It's 12:23 am CDT, 2012 right now.


Ah yes. One can log in. One can even post comments. But they bounce against the teflon hull of Starship UD without so much as a tremor, let alone the occupants staggering from one side of the set to the other. The only evidence of bannination is that nothing has a "Reply" button any more.

Well, that's a relief then.  Between that news and the three showers I took yesterday, I feel faintly clean again.

I'm reminded of Doc Daneeka in Catch-22. He was on the crew sheet of a plane that ditched (to get his flying hours in). From that moment, as far as everyone else was concerned he had died ("shame about the Doc"), despite his own impression of the situation.
     
Quote
I do have to admit though that the time I spent reading UD wasn't completely worthless.

Me too. I actually found it a useful resource at times, if you dodge the spin.

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Evolutionists trust entropy for creation of life but are like men who horse a crocodile to get across a river - niwrad.

The organism could already metabolize citrus. Joe G

  
Quack



Posts: 1746
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,07:59   

Wish I could have posted this at UcD.

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YEC creationists denigrate science without an inkling of what their lives would be without it. YEC creationism is an enrageous, abominable insult to the the human intellect.
                                                         Me.

  
damitall



Posts: 322
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,08:26   

"Bydand" was a little acerbic about the current raised level of hypocrisy at The Tardpit, suggesting that if they felt that tedious and stupid materialists ought to be banned, they might, in equity, look to banning those of the Home Team who were at least as tedious and stupid.

"Bydand" thus joins the Glorious Fallen, or Legion of the Silently Banned.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,08:50   

Quote (Soapy Sam @ Feb. 17 2012,04:43)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Feb. 16 2012,16:53)
1.  species are not individuals and cannot be selected.  theories of multiple levels of selection, that operate on higher levels of organization than individuals (species selection) are merely the consequences of reproduction (birth/death) of individuals

2.  if you survive and do not reproduce then you still have zero fitness.  selection is the differential reproductive success of individuals of varying genotypes or phenotypes (or locus in the alternate formulation)

Scott's discussion of species that survive are selected is a glimpse into essentialism.  For him, a species is a thing, an individual of sorts, and not the aggregate of breeding populations consisting of individuals

ETA a friend says that most people think like creationists and don't know it.  I think he is right, the tendency to treat species as a class and to use species names as predicates is hard to purge.  children are taught to use this concept from an early age, and it is a useful way to view the world (i.e. generalizations made as if species were individuals remain robust along the temporal scales of our lives... poison ivy is poisonous, Boletus bicolor is tasty, red squirrels live in northern hardwood forests, etc...  but they are not fixed relations as required by essentialism)

Yes - looking from 'inside' particular avenues of generational gene flow, it's clear that many/most on the creationist side see themselves as looking from inside a bubble. They can see other bubbles, but in both the forward and backward directions, there exists some kind of terminus (the onus being upon the "evo" to prove that there is not). But evos reckon they are just sitting in a pipe, connected in the past to other pipes. 'Species' is just a temporal illusion due to the inability to see very far up or down the 'pipe'. But organisms looking for mates, and taxonomists looking to classify, do so at a moment in time, fixed enough for practical purposes.

MATERIALIST!!!1!!

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,08:54   

Quote (damitall @ Feb. 17 2012,09:26)
"Bydand" was a little acerbic about the current raised level of hypocrisy at The Tardpit, suggesting that if they felt that tedious and stupid materialists ought to be banned, they might, in equity, look to banning those of the Home Team who were at least as tedious and stupid.

"Bydand" thus joins the Glorious Fallen, or Legion of the Silently Banned.

"bydand" was one of my favorites, that name stuck that unctuous pornography-mongering twat Gordon Mullings right in the forehead, like a blowgun dart

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Freddie



Posts: 365
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,08:55   

Quote (damitall @ Feb. 17 2012,08:26)
"Bydand" was a little acerbic about the current raised level of hypocrisy at The Tardpit, suggesting that if they felt that tedious and stupid materialists ought to be banned, they might, in equity, look to banning those of the Home Team who were at least as tedious and stupid.

"Bydand" thus joins the Glorious Fallen, or Legion of the Silently Banned.

A tribute.

Farewell Bydand

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Joe: Most criticisims of ID stem from ignorance and jealousy.
Joe: As for the authors of the books in the Bible, well the OT was authored by Moses and the NT was authored by various people.
Byers: The eskimo would not need hairy hair growth as hair, I say, is for keeping people dry. Not warm.

  
damitall



Posts: 322
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,09:10   

Quote (Freddie @ Feb. 17 2012,08:55)
Quote (damitall @ Feb. 17 2012,08:26)
"Bydand" was a little acerbic about the current raised level of hypocrisy at The Tardpit, suggesting that if they felt that tedious and stupid materialists ought to be banned, they might, in equity, look to banning those of the Home Team who were at least as tedious and stupid.

"Bydand" thus joins the Glorious Fallen, or Legion of the Silently Banned.

A tribute.

Farewell Bydand

Bydand's shade is swinging his sporran in appreciation!

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1254
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,09:39   

Quote (damitall @ Feb. 17 2012,08:26)
"Bydand" was a little acerbic about the current raised level of hypocrisy at The Tardpit, suggesting that if they felt that tedious and stupid materialists ought to be banned, they might, in equity, look to banning those of the Home Team who were at least as tedious and stupid.

"Bydand" thus joins the Glorious Fallen, or Legion of the Silently Banned.

Was it a swift knife in a dark alley, or a public execution?

Edit: How embarrassing - only now I noticed "Silently Banned".

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
sparc



Posts: 1674
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,10:02   

OMFG, this must hurt Gordon E. Mullings aka Kairosfocus aka Dictionary: There are Darwin projects in Montserrat.

ETA: and in 2009 he also had to experience this:


Edited by sparc on Feb. 17 2012,10:14

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1254
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,10:19   

I bet Mullings didn't use snail mail for at least one year.

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
BWE



Posts: 1896
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,10:53   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Feb. 17 2012,08:19)
I bet Mullings didn't use snail mail for at least one year.

I wonder if he bought all the stamps so no one else could use them

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Henry J



Posts: 4008
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,12:31   

Let's hope he didn't go postal!

  
keiths



Posts: 2040
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,13:25   

Another ID supporter speaks out against Barry's childishness:
Quote (noam_ghish @ Feb 17 2012, 10:24)
As a supporter of ID I have to protest that I really don’t like this trend. Of course I accept the three laws of thought and I know how frustrating it can be to deal with someone who tries to wiggle around the LNC. There are some people that will never be convinced of our reasons. And there are some people that are clearly incapable of logical thinking. Who knows even I might belong to that camp. But just because someone engages in what we perceive to be illogical some of the time, does not mean that 1 time in 20 they can point out a valid flaw in our thinking. I’ve seen too many people at other websites cook up absurd excuses to kick people out. There is no certain knowledge in philosophy. And we can never be certain that our opponents are not at least speaking a half truth a tenth of the time. I know how hard it is to deal with people that refuse to admit they’re wrong in spite of enormous evidence, but I think even more frustrating would be being unable to listen to one’s critics.

And:
Quote
I saw just ban those people who use vociferous profanity or are spammers.

He's looking at you, batshit77.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don’t belong there and thoughts into my mind that don’t belong there. -- KF

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 455
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,14:18   

Looking at the site the only posts getting comments are the LNC related posts.

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 495
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 17 2012,15:25   

Quote (sparc @ Feb. 17 2012,10:02)
OMFG, this must hurt Gordon E. Mullings aka Kairosfocus aka Dictionary: There are Darwin projects in Montserrat.

ETA: and in 2009 he also had to experience this:

And of course, as a member of the Commonwealth, his Queen endorses dread Darwinism on the British Tenner, by being on the front.

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Evolutionists trust entropy for creation of life but are like men who horse a crocodile to get across a river - niwrad.

The organism could already metabolize citrus. Joe G

  
damitall



Posts: 322
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,04:04   

I was idly thinking that maybe I could set up a small Foundation to run an essay competition in certain islands; for teenagers, say, to write about how they think their lot might improve without religion

All straight up, of course - properly judged and a small cash prize offered and paid as promised.

With luck, kf might explode on learning of it.

  
DiEb



Posts: 228
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,05:47   

Have I missed something? What happened to the nested comments? Did they get rid of this annoying feature?

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,08:33   

Quote (damitall @ Feb. 18 2012,05:04)
I was idly thinking that maybe I could set up a small Foundation to run an essay competition in certain islands; for teenagers, say, to write about how they think their lot might improve without religion

All straight up, of course - properly judged and a small cash prize offered and paid as promised.

With luck, kf might explode on learning of it.

oh sweet baby muppets please do that.  that would be a never ending source of hilarity.  i believe the pornographer might just stamp his foot and open a hole in the earth

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Kattarina98



Posts: 1254
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,08:45   

Quote (damitall @ Feb. 18 2012,04:04)
I was idly thinking that maybe I could set up a small Foundation to run an essay competition in certain islands; for teenagers, say, to write about how they think their lot might improve without religion

All straight up, of course - properly judged and a small cash prize offered and paid as promised.

With luck, kf might explode on learning of it.

Here's 50 Euro waiting to be invested in a worthy cause.

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4230
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,08:58   

I finally got around to taking Barry's quiz, but I'm not making any efforts to post my answer at UD. Here it is (also cross-posted at The Skeptical Zone):

In my view the differences in this discussion turn on the following distinction.

StephenB wants to argue that it is impossible for the moon to simultaneously exist and not exist. The proposition "The moon exists" and the proposition "the moon does not exist" cannot be simultaneously true, due to the resulting violation of the LNC. Therefore, by the lights of classical logic,  "The moon simultaneously exists and does not exist" must be false. Further, any analogous statement regarding any other entity, quantum or otherwise, must also be false. To state otherwise is to abandon all rationality.

However, I would argue not that "the moon simultaneously exists and does not exist" is false, but rather that, within the framework of classical logic, it is unintelligible. It is not impossible that the moon simultaneously exits and and does not exist; rather, that statement is simply unintelligible. Were someone to insist that "the moon simultaneously exists and does not exist" in a conversation about actual astronomical bodies I simply would be unable to unpack what is meant.

Propositions that are unintelligible are neither true nor false. Further, the negation of an unintelligible proposition is not a true proposition, but rather another unintelligible proposition. Therefore, the negation of  "the moon simultaneously exists and does not exist," namely, "the moon doesn't simultaneously exist and not exist" is equally unintelligible.

With respect to the relationship between the LNC and quantum phenomena such as superposed states, the question therefore becomes, "have we discovered phenomena that are unintelligible within the framework of classical logic?" Obviously the answer is yes, which is why the implications of quantum mechanics, when expressed in ordinary human language, and reasoned over employing classical forms of reasoning, are so difficult to grasp. Hence the statement often attributed to Feynman, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

Yet the mathematical and empirical foundations generating this unintelligibility are unassailable.

Does it follow from the observation that we have discovered quantum phenomena that are stubbornly unintelligible when expressed verbally due to violations of the classical LNC that quantum phenomena cannot exist? It does not. Indeed, when stated this way, it strikes me as a startling hubris to insist a priori that a system of logic devised by Aristotle must be capable of expressing every possible true state of affairs, and that phenomena that are inexpressible within that system therefore cannot exist.  

This, of course, is the conclusion that StephenB and BarryA strive to avoid, as it exposes leaks within what they suppose to be an airtight argument compelling belief in the existence of God.

So we return to BarryA's test question. "Can the moon exist and not exist at the same time and in the same formal relation? The answer to this question is either 'yes' or 'no.'"

My response to BarryA is that he is mistaken to assert that the only answer to this question is "yes" or "no." Indeed, the correct answer to his question is, "this is not an intelligible question."

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

  
sparc



Posts: 1674
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,12:00   

I must admit that without encoutering KairosFocus aka Gordon E. Mullings I would have never learned that there is something like the Montserrat mountain chicken which is critically endangered and  anything but a bird.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,12:10   

Quote (keiths @ Feb. 16 2012,14:08)
Quote (eigenstate @ Feb. 16 2012,08:05)
That's the basis for comment to Eric: it's a tautology in the same way as e=mc^2.

Which is to say, not a tautology at all.  "Survival of the fittest" would be a tautology only if biologists defined the "fittest" as "those who survive".  E=mc2 would be a tautology only if m were defined as E/c2.  Physicists don't define m in that way, and so E=mc2 is not a tautology.
 
Quote
It's a production, and equivalence for sure, but it's based on reality-grounded, empirical principles (and both are falsifiable).

Right.  It just seems odd to me that you would call it a tautology when it's falsifiable. "A falsifiable tautology" is an oxymoron. To use the classic example, we don't need to examine a single actual bachelor in order to determine that "all bachelors are unmarried" is a tautology.  It's true by definition.

Not addressing you specifically KeithS, just that your comment was the one that I hit the Quote button on.

Just remembered this and thought I'd share.

http://pandasthumb.org/archive....ts.html

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,12:22   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 18 2012,08:58)
Indeed, when stated this way, it strikes me as a startling hubris to insist a priori that a system of logic devised by Aristotle must be capable of expressing every possible true state of affairs, and that phenomena that are inexpressible within that system therefore cannot exist.  

Didn't Kurt Gödel have something to say about this?

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"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3549
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,12:53   

Several UD denezins were unsure that the Microsoft story was a joke. They are without a rudder.

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”let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

Pat Robertson

  
The whole truth



Posts: 972
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,13:57   

Quote (damitall @ Feb. 18 2012,02:04)
I was idly thinking that maybe I could set up a small Foundation to run an essay competition in certain islands; for teenagers, say, to write about how they think their lot might improve without religion

All straight up, of course - properly judged and a small cash prize offered and paid as promised.

With luck, kf might explode on learning of it.

What a great idea.

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Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5375
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,15:49   

This looks like a job for the Dodgenator 3000!

It looks like a combination A1/E3.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4360
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,17:01   

Quote (sparc @ Feb. 18 2012,12:00)
I must admit that without encoutering KairosFocus aka Gordon E. Mullings I would have never learned that there is something like the Montserrat mountain chicken which is critically endangered and  anything but a bird.

I believe Gordo is an expert at choking the chicken...

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,18:21   

Quote
I must admit that without encoutering KairosFocus aka Gordon E. Mullings I would have never learned that there is something like the Montserrat mountain chicken which is critically endangered and  anything but a bird.


No, but it *tastes* like chicken (smacks lips).

  
JohnW



Posts: 2200
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2012,18:55   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 18 2012,13:49)
This looks like a job for the Dodgenator 3000!

It looks like a combination A1/E3.

Frill:
Quote
If I punch 87 x 53 into my calculator and get 46,481 I immediately know something is wrong (in this case I hit the 7 key twice by accident) even if I don’t know exactly what is wrong, because the result should be somewhere in the hundreds, not thousands. I don’t need to know exactly what the problem is in order to recognize that the result makes no sense.

You couldn't make this shit up.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it.
- Robert Byers

  
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