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sparc



Posts: 1961
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 05 2015,00:55   

EN&V:Rubik's Cube Is a Hand-Sized Illustration of Intelligent Design    
Quote
Explain that the cube is a search problem. Take the scrambled one, and show how you want to get from that one to the solved one. You need a search algorithm. Which approach is more likely to find the solution -- intelligent causes or unguided causes? The answer is obvious, but go ahead; rub it in. A robot randomly moving the colors around could conceivably hit on the solution by chance in short order with sheer dumb luck (1 chance in 43 x 1018), but even if it did, it would most likely keep rotating the colors right back out of order again, not caring a dime.

just one click away:
An Evolutionary Approach for Solving the Rubik’s Cube Incorporating Exact Methods  
Quote
To provide a brief performance overview 100 random scrambles of minimum length 10 and maximum length 50 were generated and and solved in 5 repetitions.
Solution lengths and calculation time are of particular interest to us. The test was conducted with the TWES using (μ, λ) = (1000, 50000), weighing factors
(5, 5, 5, 5, 5), mutation lengths (5, 5, 13, 15, 17) and maximum generations before reset (250).
[...]
As seen in Table 1, the solution sequences hit an average of about 50 single moves, further demonstrating a consistent performance throughout the repetitions.
Most scrambles are solved in 35-45 moves, outliers are responsible for the higher average count. Extensive additional benchmarks can be found in 3.


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4821
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 17 2015,20:36   

The Discovery Institute Does More Myth-Making: Looking at #10

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4821
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 18 2015,09:56   

Nick Matzke's paper on the evolution of antievolution legislation was published in Science yesterday. The DI's John G. West posted a screed accusing Nick of misusing NSF research funding.

Here is Nick's bit in the paper that West is upset about:

Quote

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
Helpful comments were provided by E. Scott, G. Branch, J. Rosenau, E. Meikle, C. Knight, J. Felsenstein, S. Kawano, J. Louys, M. Lawing, and N. Jackson. N.J.M. was supported by NSF Awards 0919124, DBI1300426 and Australian Research Council DE150101773.


And here is West's accusation:

Quote

A more serious issue is whether Matzke misappropriated taxpayer funds in order to write his article. Matzke discloses in the article's acknowledgements that his research was funded by two National Science Foundation grants. But if you look up those grants, they appear to have nothing to do with the article he published.

Indeed, NSF Grant 0919124 is a $422,000 grant intended to "develop bivalve molluscs as a preeminent model for evolutionary studies...." And NSF Grant DBI-1300426 is a $12 million+ grant for the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis, which told the NSF it would "provide scientific insights into problems such as the control of invasive species, limiting impacts of infectious diseases, and suggesting new methods for drug design."

Perhaps Matzke claims academic freedom bills are an "infectious disease," but I doubt most taxpayers who paid for the grant would agree. And I have no idea how he might connect his writing on academic freedom legislation to research about molluscs.

If Matzke used taxpayer funds intended to underwrite serious scientific research to produce this silly piece about the politics of the evolution debate, then the National Science Foundation should consider asking for some of its grant money back.


There is a difference between "research was funded by" and "I was supported by".

West apparently doesn't understand the concept of "support". Even when one has personal projects, if one publishes those one acknowledges the funding sponsors who made it possible for one to eat, have a roof over one's head, and pay the broadband internet bill. It doesn't mean that the grants were specifically about those things, and it doesn't mean that the funds were "misused" that one has a life beyond one's specific funded research. But in West's depauperate world, apparently courtesy is merely one of the things lacking besides charity.

I'd say that Nick might have grounds for a defamation case in West's intemperate response.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Dec. 18 2015,10:00

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
someotherguy



Posts: 398
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 18 2015,11:07   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 18 2015,09:56)
Nick Matzke's paper on the evolution of antievolution legislation was published in Science yesterday. The DI's John G. West posted a screed accusing Nick of misusing NSF research funding.

Here is Nick's bit in the paper that West is upset about:

 
Quote

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
Helpful comments were provided by E. Scott, G. Branch, J. Rosenau, E. Meikle, C. Knight, J. Felsenstein, S. Kawano, J. Louys, M. Lawing, and N. Jackson. N.J.M. was supported by NSF Awards 0919124, DBI1300426 and Australian Research Council DE150101773.


And here is West's accusation:

 
Quote

A more serious issue is whether Matzke misappropriated taxpayer funds in order to write his article. Matzke discloses in the article's acknowledgements that his research was funded by two National Science Foundation grants. But if you look up those grants, they appear to have nothing to do with the article he published.

Indeed, NSF Grant 0919124 is a $422,000 grant intended to "develop bivalve molluscs as a preeminent model for evolutionary studies...." And NSF Grant DBI-1300426 is a $12 million+ grant for the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis, which told the NSF it would "provide scientific insights into problems such as the control of invasive species, limiting impacts of infectious diseases, and suggesting new methods for drug design."

Perhaps Matzke claims academic freedom bills are an "infectious disease," but I doubt most taxpayers who paid for the grant would agree. And I have no idea how he might connect his writing on academic freedom legislation to research about molluscs.

If Matzke used taxpayer funds intended to underwrite serious scientific research to produce this silly piece about the politics of the evolution debate, then the National Science Foundation should consider asking for some of its grant money back.


There is a difference between "research was funded by" and "I was supported by".

West apparently doesn't understand the concept of "support". Even when one has personal projects, if one publishes those one acknowledges the funding sponsors who made it possible for one to eat, have a roof over one's head, and pay the broadband internet bill. It doesn't mean that the grants were specifically about those things, and it doesn't mean that the funds were "misused" that one has a life beyond one's specific funded research. But in West's depauperate world, apparently courtesy is merely one of the things lacking besides charity.

I'd say that Nick might have grounds for a defamation case in West's intemperate response.

The amount of both desperation and ignorance that goes into a claim like that is just amazing.  Matzke really strikes a nerve with those folks, and for good reason.

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Evolander in training

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4821
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 18 2015,11:22   

Nick has a response at PandasThumb pointing out that he used techniques for the creationist legislation that he had developed and applied under the research grants in the acknowledgments, giving another reason why West is out to lunch on this.

Plus, he got in a dig at West over the whole intolerance for academic freedom thing. Bonus!

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1029
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 18 2015,11:55   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 18 2015,09:56)
Nick Matzke's paper on the evolution of antievolution legislation was published in Science yesterday. The DI's John G. West posted a screed accusing Nick of misusing NSF research funding.

Here is Nick's bit in the paper that West is upset about:

 
Quote

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
Helpful comments were provided by E. Scott, G. Branch, J. Rosenau, E. Meikle, C. Knight, J. Felsenstein, S. Kawano, J. Louys, M. Lawing, and N. Jackson. N.J.M. was supported by NSF Awards 0919124, DBI1300426 and Australian Research Council DE150101773.


And here is West's accusation:

 
Quote

A more serious issue is whether Matzke misappropriated taxpayer funds in order to write his article. Matzke discloses in the article's acknowledgements that his research was funded by two National Science Foundation grants. But if you look up those grants, they appear to have nothing to do with the article he published.

Indeed, NSF Grant 0919124 is a $422,000 grant intended to "develop bivalve molluscs as a preeminent model for evolutionary studies...." And NSF Grant DBI-1300426 is a $12 million+ grant for the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis, which told the NSF it would "provide scientific insights into problems such as the control of invasive species, limiting impacts of infectious diseases, and suggesting new methods for drug design."

Perhaps Matzke claims academic freedom bills are an "infectious disease," but I doubt most taxpayers who paid for the grant would agree. And I have no idea how he might connect his writing on academic freedom legislation to research about molluscs.

If Matzke used taxpayer funds intended to underwrite serious scientific research to produce this silly piece about the politics of the evolution debate, then the National Science Foundation should consider asking for some of its grant money back.


There is a difference between "research was funded by" and "I was supported by".

West apparently doesn't understand the concept of "support". Even when one has personal projects, if one publishes those one acknowledges the funding sponsors who made it possible for one to eat, have a roof over one's head, and pay the broadband internet bill. It doesn't mean that the grants were specifically about those things, and it doesn't mean that the funds were "misused" that one has a life beyond one's specific funded research. But in West's depauperate world, apparently courtesy is merely one of the things lacking besides charity.

I'd say that Nick might have grounds for a defamation case in West's intemperate response.

We have nothing to hide.

So quit exposing our tawdry shifts and dissimulations.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2125
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 18 2015,15:43   

This has been too funny.  :D

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
KevinB



Posts: 331
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 18 2015,16:27   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 18 2015,11:22)
Nick has a response at PandasThumb pointing out that he used techniques for the creationist legislation that he had developed and applied under the research grants in the acknowledgments, giving another reason why West is out to lunch on this.

Plus, he got in a dig at West over the whole intolerance for academic freedom thing. Bonus!

The DI is probably having a conniption fit, because one paper in Science probably outpoints the DI's entire publication record for the last 5 years.

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 18 2015,22:46   

If West looked up NSF Grant 0919124 he'd find, to his great surprise, that it had been awarded by the NSF Program in Phylogenetic Systematics.

Quote
2. Phylogenetic Systematics program. Supports research that addresses significant questions about organismal evolution using phylogenetic approaches. The primary foci of this program are to investigate the origins of biodiversity and to resolve the relationships among species across the hierarchy of life. All "tree-based" approaches to studies of organismal evolution, including tree-building at all taxonomic levels, tree-based studies of character evolution, and tree-enabled comparative biology fall within this program. Projects that build, refine, and use phylogenies to study biogeographic distributions; temporal patterns of evolution; evolution of morphological, physiological, developmental, behavioral and molecular traits; adaptation; or other macroevolutionary patterns are appropriate. Projects that use phylogenies to produce revisionary classifications and monographs are also appropriate. Additionally, proposals that advance theory and methods of phylogenetic analysis and phylogenetic comparative approaches are also encouraged.


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If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout

  
Quack



Posts: 1951
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 19 2015,00:04   

Quote
The amount of both desperation and ignorance that goes into a claim like that is just amazing.  Matzke really strikes a nerve with those folks, and for good reason.
Good old soccer tactics (if you can get away with it), get the man, not the ball.

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1195
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 19 2015,08:35   

It looks like all the DI has left to do is feed the confirmation bias of their supporters.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 997
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 19 2015,09:19   

Quote
And NSF Grant DBI-1300426 is a $12 million+ grant for the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis, which told the NSF it would "provide scientific insights into problems such as the control of invasive species, limiting impacts of infectious diseases, and suggesting new methods for drug design."


I think "invasive species" and "infectious disease" describe ID quite well. So it appears that the funding was appropriately used.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2015,10:13   



From here:

http://www.discovery.org/id....i....d....id

Read this page:

http://www.faithbibleonline.org/about-u....beliefs

All science so far!

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Quack



Posts: 1951
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2015,11:23   

http://www.faithbibleonline.org/about-u....beliefs

worked better for me...

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2015,12:36   

Quote (Quack @ Dec. 21 2015,09:23)
http://www.faithbibleonline.org/about-u....beliefs

worked better for me...

Quack, I'm not sure what you mean. Did my link not work for you? I just tried your link and mine and both of them took me to the same page.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Quack



Posts: 1951
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2015,16:25   

Quote (The whole truth @ Dec. 21 2015,12:36)
 
Quote (Quack @ Dec. 21 2015,09:23)
http://www.faithbibleonline.org/about-u....beliefs

worked better for me...

Quack, I'm not sure what you mean. Did my link not work for you? I just tried your link and mine and both of them took me to the same page.

I don't know either, now your link works but it did not work for me earlier today. Must've been a quirk somewhere around here.

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1015
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2016,21:38   

This news is a few days old now, and has been mentioned at various blogs, but I think it merits marking here: Casey Luskin is leaving the DI - ENV link. The question that no-one else seems to have asked is what is going to happen to the Casey Luskin Award?

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We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1774
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2016,22:56   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Jan. 03 2016,21:38)
This news is a few days old now, and has been mentioned at various blogs, but I think it merits marking here: Casey Luskin is leaving the DI - ENV link. The question that no-one else seems to have asked is what is going to happen to the Casey Luskin Award?

It will still be awarded.



--------------
"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
sparc



Posts: 1961
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 08 2016,22:56   

Ann Gauger, molecular biologist and new director of science communication at Discovery Institute, denies evolution theory. Thus, it is surprising that she thinks loss of genetic diversity might impose a problem for wild salmon populations:
Quote
Gauger is concerned about possible unintended consequences such as the loss of genetic diversity. If the sterile, genetically engineered salmon become the main version of salmon, they will all be of one genotype, leaving them particularly vulnerable to disease. Our knowledge of the way things are designed is very limited, she said: “We don’t know what a particular change will do downstream.”

One may wonder how sterile fish could become the dominating salmon in the first place, though.
ASSF. Also at EN&V.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2125
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,12:40   

The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

   
khan



Posts: 1526
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,13:40   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 18 2016,13:40)
The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

The Institute pointed out that it did not advocate pushing intelligent design into public school science classes. Furthermore, the theory of intelligent design as articulated by scholars affiliated with Discovery Institute was not "faith-based," although it had positive implications for faith.

"Lying piece of shit" comes to mind.

I further reiterated our request to Ms. Kenaston that the UMC disclose the list of approved exhibitors at the General Conference and the list of members of the "Commission on the General Conference" that made the decision to ban Discovery Institute.

So they can publish them with phone and address?

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 997
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,13:51   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 18 2016,12:40)
The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

Hmmm. People being banned simply because they disagree? This sounds vaguely familiar. Where have I seen something like this happening before?....

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4821
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,13:56   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 18 2016,12:40)
The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

The DI claims UMC leadership is "under fire" because the DI got disinvited.

So far as I can see, the only "fire" going on is the DI itself being annoyed and whining about it.

The UMC has a short, clear resolution from 2008 noting that the UMC supports separation of church and state, and thus opposes religious antievolution in public school science classrooms.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1774
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,14:13   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 18 2016,12:40)
The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

Man, the Tooters really have a carrot up their butt over this one!  :D   Besides screaming bloody murder at both EN&V and UD they've also set up a web page with the names and email addresses of the UMC leadership and requested all IDiots to flood UMC with nastygrams.

What a bunch of shitheads.

--------------
"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
khan



Posts: 1526
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,14:29   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Jan. 18 2016,15:13)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 18 2016,12:40)
The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

Man, the Tooters really have a carrot up their butt over this one!  :D   Besides screaming bloody murder at both EN&V and UD they've also set up a web page with the names and email addresses of the UMC leadership and requested all IDiots to flood UMC with nastygrams.

What a bunch of shitheads.

How to win friends and influence people; discotute version?

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,15:37   

Quote (khan @ Jan. 18 2016,14:29)
Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Jan. 18 2016,15:13)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 18 2016,12:40)
The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

Man, the Tooters really have a carrot up their butt over this one!  :D   Besides screaming bloody murder at both EN&V and UD they've also set up a web page with the names and email addresses of the UMC leadership and requested all IDiots to flood UMC with nastygrams.

What a bunch of shitheads.

How to win friends and influence people; discotute version?

What would the DI do at a vendor fair? Sell Meyer's books (from other publishers) or hand out Luskin's pamphlets?

Because this will stir up evangelical hate towards mainline Protestants, the UD thread will be a thing of beauty. Already:

"UMC is full of anti-Christian phonies" followed by a link to a page ranting about feminist pro-gay pastors who don't punish adultery.

"opposition to ID is opposition to the God of the Bible"

"Many public schools are now teaching the basic tenets of Islam. Is the United Methodist Church on record as opposed to this as well"

Big tent, right....

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2125
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,15:54   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Jan. 18 2016,12:13)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 18 2016,12:40)
The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

Man, the Tooters really have a carrot up their butt over this one!  :D   Besides screaming bloody murder at both EN&V and UD they've also set up a web page with the names and email addresses of the UMC leadership and requested all IDiots to flood UMC with nastygrams.

What a bunch of shitheads.

That ploy worked really well for Bill Dembski at Baylor.

:D

   
NoName



Posts: 2721
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,16:13   

Quote (REC @ Jan. 18 2016,16:37)
...

"opposition to ID is opposition to the God of the Bible"

...

Hardly.
Any form of design-based theology points to a deity or set of deities who are not omnipotent.  Design as such is required only for beings subject to the recalcitrant nature of materials.  It is prima facie absurd, and heretical, to assert that the standard-model Christian god performed acts of design.
Heretics, the lot of them.

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1029
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,18:08   

I hear that the UMC is keeping out flat-earthers, too.

It's astonishing.

ppolish:  "History shows that when the Church is uncomfortable with your scientific idea – you probably have a deep idea. Exciting times:)"

Yeah, better get interested in that scientific idea of evolution that a bunch of religious zealots opposes without evidence.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1774
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 18 2016,18:30   

Quote (REC @ Jan. 18 2016,15:37)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 18 2016,14:29)
 
Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Jan. 18 2016,15:13)
 
Quote (Dr.GH @ Jan. 18 2016,12:40)
The Disco'tutes banned from United Methodist conference.

Heheheh

Man, the Tooters really have a carrot up their butt over this one!  :D   Besides screaming bloody murder at both EN&V and UD they've also set up a web page with the names and email addresses of the UMC leadership and requested all IDiots to flood UMC with nastygrams.

What a bunch of shitheads.

How to win friends and influence people; discotute version?

What would the DI do at a vendor fair? Sell Meyer's books (from other publishers) or hand out Luskin's pamphlets?

Because this will stir up evangelical hate towards mainline Protestants, the UD thread will be a thing of beauty. Already:

"UMC is full of anti-Christian phonies" followed by a link to a page ranting about feminist pro-gay pastors who don't punish adultery.

"opposition to ID is opposition to the God of the Bible"

"Many public schools are now teaching the basic tenets of Islam. Is the United Methodist Church on record as opposed to this as well"

Big tent, right....

DonaldM at UD explains why we should all take the DI's side against the UMC.  Seems the UMC has Home Depot and Staples as sponsors and everyone knows those two God-hating stores are advocates of gay rights and same-sex marriage!

Whatever are the ID Christian homophobic bigots to do??   :D

--------------
"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
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