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Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,01:01   

http://www.suite101.com/content/spontaneous-generation-a34356

Quote
The assertion that life can instantaneously arise from nonliving matter is called spontaneous generation. Here are the critical experiments that busted the myth...


http://science.jrank.org/pages/6408/Spontaneous-Generation.html

Quote
Spontaneous generation, also called abiogenesis, is the belief that some living things can arise suddenly, from inanimate matter, without the need for a living progenitor to give them life.



edited.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3654
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,09:09   

Hey Joe, some more questions for your lame ass 'theory'.  You were wrong on an epic scale about the last set and you blatantly avoided the one before that (interestingly, since the central tennet of ID is to be able to determine things like that*

Take the following sequence

AUG UUU UGA

******************************
the following point mutation occurs

AUG UUC UGA

Is this a loss of information?  

*******************************
Soon afterward this mutation occurs

AUG UUU UGA

Is this a loss of information?

*******************************
Now, the following mutation occurs

AUG CAC UUU UGA

Is this a loss of information?

*******************************
Let's go back to our original sequence

AUG UUU UGA

what if this mutation occurs

AUG UUC UGA

Is this a loss of information?
***********************************

There you go Joe, four easy questions for a mind that can solve the DaVinci Code in 149 minutes.



* I refer you to what ID is in their own words
Quote

Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system's components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research is conducted by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago.
my emphasis to direct your attention to the important bit

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,10:17   

New Tard:

http://intelligentreasoning.blogspot.com/2010....ll.html

The trouble is, Joe, you seem to need to know if something is designed or not before you calculate the numbers to tell us if it's designed.

[tard] IOW, HOW YA LIEK THEM APPELS? [/tard]

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,12:26   

Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 12 2010,11:36)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 10 2010,13:54)
Hey Joe,

 What's the function of a bacterial flagellum?  (yes, it's a trap, so I'll understand if you cowardly don't answer)

_

Hey Joe,

 Can a bacterial flagellum that's missing one of the two motor proteins function?  (yes, it's a trap, so I'll understand if you cowardly don't answer)

_

Hey Joe,

 What's a reversion and why does it blow your concept of mutations and information completely out of the water?  (yes, it's a trap, so I'll understand if you cowardly don't answer)

1- motility

2- Perhaps, it depends on which proteins

3- No it doesn't do anything to that argument.

Ya see moron you have to first understand the argument before you can refute it.

Joe, try not to draw such obvious attention to your stupidity.  I'm trying to help.

If you only answer questions you think you know the answer to (even when you don't), and obviously dodge one you don't even understand, it looks bad.

In the future try one of the following strategies.  One, dodge all of the questions in order to avoid drawing even more attention to your largest failures.  Two, researching the questions in an attempt to give an honest answer to all of them.  The first choice is the funniest, but in the interest of bettering the human race I suppose I'll have to root for choice two.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,13:14   

Joe G:
           
Quote
Reciprocating Bill seems to think that since the number of bits is the same for a specified/ functional sequence of say 250 nucleotides and a random/ non-functional sequence of 250 nucleotides, that the NUMBER doesn't tell us anything.

Neither the number nor the calculation that yields the number tell us anything about specification. As you indicate, the calculation yields the same number regardless of the presence, absence, or degree of specification present in a sequence. Therefore your claim that it is a measure of the specification present within the sequence is false.
           
Quote
The difference is one is a measure of specified complexity and the other of mere complexity.

Your calculation reflects no such difference. Rather, you claim that a sequence contains specification independently of the results of your calculation, and THEN claim that your calculation discloses the "quantity" of that specified information.

Again, this is exactly analogous to devising a thermometer that always reads "very hot" (a stick on which "very hot" has been painted will do) and then claiming it provides an accurate measure of temperature so long as it is applied only to very hot objects. For that to work you would need to know by means other than your thermometer that the object was indeed very hot. By then, of course, the thermometer serves no purpose and yields no further information: you already know the object is very hot. The fact that it continues to read "very hot" regardless of the temperature of the objects to which it is applied should arouse suspicion that it is not measuring temperature at all.

Oddly enough, the fact that your calculation yields the same number regardless of whether specification is present in a given sequence fails to arouse similar suspicions for you.  
 
Quote
The bottom line is a number is just a number unless there is a context.

And it is your calculation that fails to provide the required context. That it is why it is a useless triviality that discloses nothing whatsoever about the degree of specification that may be present in a given sequence.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,13:37   

Yes, Joe.  As RB has tirelessly pointed out, you've failed to provide anything of use.  Ever.  Your pattern of problem solving(?) is telling.

1.  You are asked for details.
2.  You call the asker a child molester.
3.  You are asked for the details of your argument.
4.  You curse and tell people that ToE is stupid.
5.  You are asked for the details of your argument.
6.  You provide a calculation.
7.  You are asked for an example to use your calculation on.
8.  You say that examples are for child molesters.
9.  It is pointed out that your calculation is meaningless.
10. You say that calculation doesn't actually do what you claimed it did.
11.  You claim it does something else, but never provide an example of the calculation doing anything at all (either thing 1 or thing 2).
12.  You declare victory and claim that everyone else in the world is irrational.

Why aren't you a tenured faculty member at UNH?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,15:49   

Joe, perhaps you could work an example so that we may tell if something contains SI?  When you were first asked this, you gave the "count the nucleotides" thing.  Now you claim that this isn't the case.  Perhaps you could tell us your new technique?  One that isn't "it looks designed" that is.

Perhaps you have a different equation that actually determines it?

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Joe G



Posts: 2040
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,20:03   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 13 2010,10:17)
New Tard:

http://intelligentreasoning.blogspot.com/2010....ll.html

The trouble is, Joe, you seem to need to know if something is designed or not before you calculate the numbers to tell us if it's designed.

[tard] IOW, HOW YA LIEK THEM APPELS? [/tard]

No, you dipshit.

You just need to know if it has functionality. Then you measure the specified information.

You still don't know if it is designed or not. If the 500 bit threshold is reached that reason enough to infer design.

And then if you tards actually get off your ass and produce positive evidence - not targeted searches like EV and weasel- for your position you may some day demonstrate that blind, undirected chemical processes can construct something from scratch.

--------------
Chromosomes. are. all. connected. It is one long polymer. Called the DNA. - oleg t

Smilodon's Retreat is a place for ignorant cowards

Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. (don't know why Ogre has that, but it fits IDists)

   
Joe G



Posts: 2040
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,20:06   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 13 2010,09:09)
Hey Joe, some more questions for your lame ass 'theory'.  You were wrong on an epic scale about the last set and you blatantly avoided the one before that (interestingly, since the central tennet of ID is to be able to determine things like that*

Take the following sequence

AUG UUU UGA

******************************
the following point mutation occurs

AUG UUC UGA

Is this a loss of information?  

*******************************
Soon afterward this mutation occurs

AUG UUU UGA

Is this a loss of information?

*******************************
Now, the following mutation occurs

AUG CAC UUU UGA

Is this a loss of information?

*******************************
Let's go back to our original sequence

AUG UUU UGA

what if this mutation occurs

AUG UUC UGA

Is this a loss of information?
***********************************

There you go Joe, four easy questions for a mind that can solve the DaVinci Code in 149 minutes.



* I refer you to what ID is in their own words
 
Quote

Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system's components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research is conducted by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago.
my emphasis to direct your attention to the important bit

Hey asshole, science is not done in a fucking vacuum nor on a forum.

Your sequences are meaningless- ie no specified information at all.

And the other "question" with sequences is bogus also- again not in a vacuum nor on a forum.

And you cannot even demonstrate either sequence can arise without agency involvement.

THAT is the whole issue- you can't even get started.

--------------
Chromosomes. are. all. connected. It is one long polymer. Called the DNA. - oleg t

Smilodon's Retreat is a place for ignorant cowards

Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. (don't know why Ogre has that, but it fits IDists)

   
Joe G



Posts: 2040
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,20:19   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 12 2010,15:19)
Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 12 2010,11:36)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 10 2010,13:54)
Hey Joe,

 What's the function of a bacterial flagellum?  (yes, it's a trap, so I'll understand if you cowardly don't answer)

_

Hey Joe,

 Can a bacterial flagellum that's missing one of the two motor proteins function?  (yes, it's a trap, so I'll understand if you cowardly don't answer)

_

Hey Joe,

 What's a reversion and why does it blow your concept of mutations and information completely out of the water?  (yes, it's a trap, so I'll understand if you cowardly don't answer)

1- motility

2- Perhaps, it depends on which proteins

3- No it doesn't do anything to that argument.

Ya see moron you have to first understand the argument before you can refute it.

1) Wrong moron... the true function of the flagella is excretion, mobility is a secondary function.  Geez, you're stupid.

2) Which one?  Damn you are dumber than dog spit.  There are only two motor proteins  

3) Then you have no argument either because the information content of all the mutations is the same.  

Ya see moron, you first have to understand before anything...

Well, he answered, to bad he's shown himself to be a complete imbecile.

BTW: It's your hero's contention that bacteria flagella have no function without both MotA and MotB.  This is wrong on TWO levels.  First, the flagella maintains a secretion function without either AND if MotB is missing, then MotA and several other proteins take over.

IOW (I know you love that one): Irreducible complexity is wrong.

Let me ask you Joe... Does ID depend on mutations?

1- Reference that that bit of spewage - bacterial flagellum and motility- not excretion.

2- Reference for the removal of the motor proteins and still have either flagellum function (not likely) or any other function.

There isn't any evidence a TTSS can evolve into a BF nor a BF can evolve into a TTSS.

3- Your ignorance of the argument is not a refutation

--------------
Chromosomes. are. all. connected. It is one long polymer. Called the DNA. - oleg t

Smilodon's Retreat is a place for ignorant cowards

Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. (don't know why Ogre has that, but it fits IDists)

   
Joe G



Posts: 2040
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,20:23   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 13 2010,13:14)
Joe G:
             
Quote
Reciprocating Bill seems to think that since the number of bits is the same for a specified/ functional sequence of say 250 nucleotides and a random/ non-functional sequence of 250 nucleotides, that the NUMBER doesn't tell us anything.

Neither the number nor the calculation that yields the number tell us anything about specification. As you indicate, the calculation yields the same number regardless of the presence, absence, or degree of specification present in a sequence. Therefore your claim that it is a measure of the specification present within the sequence is false.
             
Quote
The difference is one is a measure of specified complexity and the other of mere complexity.

Your calculation reflects no such difference. Rather, you claim that a sequence contains specification independently of the results of your calculation, and THEN claim that your calculation discloses the "quantity" of that specified information.

Again, this is exactly analogous to devising a thermometer that always reads "very hot" (a stick on which "very hot" has been painted will do) and then claiming it provides an accurate measure of temperature so long as it is applied only to very hot objects. For that to work you would need to know by means other than your thermometer that the object was indeed very hot. By then, of course, the thermometer serves no purpose and yields no further information: you already know the object is very hot. The fact that it continues to read "very hot" regardless of the temperature of the objects to which it is applied should arouse suspicion that it is not measuring temperature at all.

Oddly enough, the fact that your calculation yields the same number regardless of whether specification is present in a given sequence fails to arouse similar suspicions for you.  
   
Quote
The bottom line is a number is just a number unless there is a context.

And it is your calculation that fails to provide the required context. That it is why it is a useless triviality that discloses nothing whatsoever about the degree of specification that may be present in a given sequence.

Hey asshole- I never said it was the measure of the specification present within a sequence.

I said it is a measure of the specified information- because you are measuring specified information.

--------------
Chromosomes. are. all. connected. It is one long polymer. Called the DNA. - oleg t

Smilodon's Retreat is a place for ignorant cowards

Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. (don't know why Ogre has that, but it fits IDists)

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,20:30   

Joe G:
Quote
I never said it was the measure of the specification present within a sequence.

I said it is a measure of the specified information- because you are measuring specified information.

My wooden thermometer is a measure of very hot things, because you are measuring very hot things.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2010,21:52   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 13 2010,20:30)
Joe G:
 
Quote
I never said it was the measure of the specification present within a sequence.

I said it is a measure of the specified information- because you are measuring specified information.

My wooden thermometer is a measure of very hot things, because you are measuring very hot things.

I don't think he even understands what he writes...

Edited

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,00:28   

Example?  You forgot to work an example showing that you know how to do anything.  Ya see, JoeTard has no mechanism.  JoeTard doesn't actually do anything; it's incapable.  Pick a question you've been asked--any of them--and work an example.  The longer you post here without doing so just strengthens Rich's position.  I know you don't want that to happen.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,00:47   

I know I'm the only one who reads it, but Joe accuses me of quoteming on his blog.

Unfortunately, he doesn't understand quote-mining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context

Joe, I did not change context or omit text to change meaning, I presented a full paragraph that was a complete thought and linked to it. You can get upset with the source if you like, but I faithfully represented the sentiment that was written. Unlike you:

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y179113

And all of this is moot, because the math that Joe presents (but can't explain or understand), REQUIRES spontaneous creation. There is no recursion, no stepwise building in that math, Joe. It's Tornado / Junkyard tardom of the highest order.

Oh, and it also supports Baraminology.

Oh, ETA - of all the things you've been confronted with, you chose to post your quibble on 'spontaneous generation'? You're sophist a of the worst kind. But it is amusing watching folks hand your arse to you. And maybe you'll understand the UPB / 500 bits now I've explained it to you.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,00:58   

Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 13 2010,20:06)
[snip] Hey asshole, science is not done in a fucking vacuum nor on a forum.

[snip]

It was a waste of time putting those experiments on the shuttle then!

Quote
Many dealing with ion trap mobilty spectrometry & mass spectrometry. Many more dealing with electronic circuitry and electricity.

I can't get specific as it deals with security. If you can get a security clearance I could show you what I do.

Then there is astronomy. On any given night I can have 3 telescopes pointing skyward. 2 4,5" aps with a 910mm FL(one automated and one manual) as well as a 10" ap with an 1125mm FL.

And that is just the tip of the ole iceberg.

That doesn't count the experiments I conduct in my basement. Some labs would be jealous of the equipment I house & use there.

For example I now know that ticks are more attracted to watermelon rinds then they are to orange peels or orange slices. I also know that dragonflies play.


*points and laughs*

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,05:31   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 14 2010,00:58)
 
Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 13 2010,20:06)
Many dealing with ion trap mobilty spectrometry & mass spectrometry. Many more dealing with electronic circuitry and electricity.

I can't get specific as it deals with security. If you can get a security clearance I could show you what I do.


*points and laughs*

In other words, Joe works for the TSA putting boxes on the conveyor to the Explosive Trace Detection machine.  It was a proud day in the Gallien household when he received his royal blue shirt and black polyester pants.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,06:07   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 14 2010,06:31)
     
Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 14 2010,00:58)
         
Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 13 2010,20:06)
Many dealing with ion trap mobilty spectrometry & mass spectrometry. Many more dealing with electronic circuitry and electricity.

I can't get specific as it deals with security. If you can get a security clearance I could show you what I do.


*points and laughs*

In other words, Joe works for the TSA putting boxes on the conveyor to the Explosive Trace Detection machine.  It was a proud day in the Gallien household when he received his royal blue shirt and black polyester pants.

It's a machine of his own invention. A soapbox on which he has scrawled, "Danger: Trace Explosives Detected!"

It works with 100% accuracy, so long as you only put objects containing trace explosives into it.

It is a measure of trace explosives - because you are measuring trace explosives.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,09:29   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 13 2010,10:17)
New Tard:

http://intelligentreasoning.blogspot.com/2010....ll.html

The trouble is, Joe, you seem to need to know if something is designed or not before you calculate the numbers to tell us if it's designed.

[tard] IOW, HOW YA LIEK THEM APPELS? [/tard]

This has always been the case with such folk.  They declare they can tell how much information is in a DNA sequence.  You show them a DNA sequence and ask them to tell you how much information is in it.  They decline, claiming that it is a trick question, because they don't know if it is a gene or not.

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,09:38   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 14 2010,00:58)
 
Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 13 2010,20:06)
[snip] Hey asshole, science is not done in a fucking vacuum nor on a forum.

[snip]

It was a waste of time putting those experiments on the shuttle then!

 
Quote
Many dealing with ion trap mobilty spectrometry & mass spectrometry. Many more dealing with electronic circuitry and electricity.

I can't get specific as it deals with security. If you can get a security clearance I could show you what I do.

Then there is astronomy. On any given night I can have 3 telescopes pointing skyward. 2 4,5" aps with a 910mm FL(one automated and one manual) as well as a 10" ap with an 1125mm FL.

And that is just the tip of the ole iceberg.

That doesn't count the experiments I conduct in my basement. Some labs would be jealous of the equipment I house & use there.

For example I now know that ticks are more attracted to watermelon rinds then they are to orange peels or orange slices. I also know that dragonflies play.


*points and laughs*

I can't find that last bit in JoeG's posts. Did Joe write that and remove it?  Has he EXPELLED the secrets about his security clearance?

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,09:40   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Dec. 14 2010,09:38)
[snip]

I can't find that last bit in JoeG's posts. Did Joe write that and remove it?  Has he EXPELLED the secrets about his security clearance?

http://www.arn.org/ubbthre....=0&vc=1

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,09:42   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 14 2010,09:40)
Quote (Hermagoras @ Dec. 14 2010,09:38)
[snip]

I can't find that last bit in JoeG's posts. Did Joe write that and remove it?  Has he EXPELLED the secrets about his security clearance?

http://www.arn.org/ubbthre....=0&vc=1

Thanks.  He's quite the expert then.

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,09:52   

IDGUY (Shhh! it's really Joe!) snuggles with Sal:

http://telicthoughts.com/the-abs....-264482

Quote
ID guy Says:
December 14th, 2010 at 8:57 am Sal:
In order for the editors to shield themselves from criticism, they will, in the same issue let through the harshest possible criticism in a separate paper.

Except that other paper is nothing but a straw man, substance-free/ evidence-free. Heck it attacks "Intelligent Design Creationsism", which only exists in the minds of the delusional.


Comment by ID guy — December 14, 2010 @ 8:57 am


Straw man and substance free at the same time is impressive. A misrepresented non-representation?

edited.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3654
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,10:53   

Joe, Joe, Joe...

You really ought to know me better than that.  I can provide you with the references... and I will.  You won't read them because they are longer than 2 paragraphs.  You won't understand them because they use science.  But that's OK.

What I find really funny is that this was Joe's big chance.  He had a chance to show that ID has a useful tool that can be used to learn something about the world.

Joe chickened out.  Probably because he knows that A) he doesn't actually have a clue about what's going on and B) he doesn't truly believe in ID.  

OK Joe, here you go;

reference the first:
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA
Vol. 96, pp. 6456–6461, May 1999
Microbiology
A new pathway for the secretion of virulence factors by bacteria:The flagellar export apparatus functions as a proteinsecretion system
GLENN M. YOUNG*, DEBORAH H. SCHMIEL*, AND VIRGINIA L. MILLER*†‡
Quote
Biogenesis of the flagellum, a motive organelle
of many bacterial species, is best understood for
members of the Enterobacteriaceae. The flagellum is a heterooligomeric structure that protrudes from the surface of the cell. Its assembly initially involves the synthesis of a dedicated protein export apparatus that subsequently transports other flagellar proteins by a type III mechanism from the cytoplasm to the outer  urface of the cell, where oligomerization occurs.
In this study, the flagellum export apparatus was shown to function also as a secretion system for the transport of several extracellular proteins in the pathogenic bacterium Yersinia enterocolitica. One of the proteins exported by the flagellar secretion system was the virulence-associated phospholipase, YplA. These results suggest type III protein secretion by the flagellar system may be a general mechanism for the transport
of proteins that influence bacterial–host interactions.


IOW (that's my new favorite texting comment, thanks Joe): During assembly, the flagellum must excrete parts of itself AND it secretes toxic compounds while also being a function flagellum.


reference the second (multiple):
Berry RM, and Armitage JP. (1999). The bacterial flagella motor. Adv Microb Physiol, 41, 291-337.

DeRosier DJ. (1998 Apr 3). The turn of the screw: the bacterial flagellar motor. Cell, 93, 17-20.

Harshey RM and Toguchi A (1996 Jun) Spining Tails: homologies amongst bacterial flagellar systems. Trends Micro, 4, 226-231.

Mot A and B forms a proton pump which provides the power of the motor, MotB also serves to anchor the motor to the cell. Deletion of Mot A or B paralyses the cell, however, it may be possible to overcome this paralysis by over expression of Mot A (in MotB mutants), FliG and FliM

_

With that all being said, if you say so much as one word about "speculation" or "just so stories", then I'm going to hammer you for the details you are too cowardly to provide about "your own" work*.  

IOW: I want a complete description of the designer, every design it has ever made, when that design occured and what methods were used to impliment the design.  If you so much as have one gap or missing bit of information, then you have NO BUSINESS talking about our 'just so stories'.

Coward.


*I say "your own" work because you haven't done anything.  You're just taking it from Dembski.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3654
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,11:18   

Crud, reference the third vanished.  That's OK, it gives me a chance to put off a review I don't want to do and give a bit more information on this paper.

Multiple translational products from a five-nucleotide ribozyme
Rebecca M. Turka, Nataliya V. Chumachenkob, and Michael Yarusa,1

www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.0912895107


Quote
These data strongly and collectively support the active site model first suggested for the C3 ribozyme (6): RNA 20ð30Þ aminoacylation requires only an unusually simple center composed of three nucleotides.


This is fascinating stuff.  They are talking about RNAs that catalyze that are only five nucleotides long and the active site is only three nucleotides long.

Quote

Nonetheless, GUGGC/GCCU is unique: It binds a complex
heteroatomic substrate and facilitates group transfer from a multipart biochemical. This implies a more complex catalytic interface than in metal-catalyzed hydrolysis employing already poised 20-hydroxyl and ribonucleotide phosphate. In addition, reactions presented here do not depend on ions infrequent in biological systems, and, in fact, show little ion ependence. Thus, it is more surprising that aminoacyl transfer is accelerated by two normal Us and a G nucleotide, poised at a helix terminus.

Further, these particular reactions are central to metabolism, resembling the substrate and product of biological aminoacyltRNA synthesis.


The reactions that are central to metabolism can be catalyzed by a five unit RNA?!?!?  Epic.

Quote

The ultimate importance of these observations may lie partly in the unknown number of other reactions that can be accelerated by comparably small RNAs. This is because for each such minuscule RNA reaction, there is a prima facie case that it would become accessible even after the most primitive ribonucleotide polymerization.

To see this, consider that, to pick every possible RNA  pentamer sequence from arbitrary pentamers (with probability 0.9975), one needs only accumulate 4.1 × 10?18 gm of RNA. To possess every tetramer (with probability 0.9975) from a pool of arbitrary tetramers, one would need 3.4 × 10?18 gm RNA. In a real polymerization, one would have a distribution of lengths; nonetheless, with only attograms of total RNA of distributed short lengths from some geochemical source, one would have not only our ribozyme, but every activity of comparable size.

As an illustration, the ribozymic complexes characterized here demonstrate that aminoacyl-RNA and peptidyl-RNAs could have appeared in the presence of ?9 nucleotides of polymeric RNA, with six of these free to vary to other base pairs. We have previously estimated that a population containing about 1 ng of arbitrary-sequence RNA would be required before useful ribozymes
and other active RNA structures would probably occur
among this population (20).


If one particular 5 unit RNA can do this, can others?  Cool, a place for further research... something ID has never done.

0.000000000000041 grams of RNA could generate every possible 5 unit length of RNA.  That's ALL.  That's all we need?!!?  Holy cow, it's not like we need 247 pounds of the stuff to instanly make a JoeG or anything.

Now, would you like the chemically feasible pre-biotic pathways for pyrimidine ribonucleotides?  Cause I can do that too?

Poor Joe, so out of his league and can't even see it.  I suppose it's cruel to keep him around like the court dwarf, just to laugh at him.  On the other hand, he voluntarily comes here.  Too bad he's too much of a coward to actually discuss Intelligent Design... or is that he's too dumb.  It's not like he's done any original research in Intelligent Design, just regurgitating whatever Dembski and Meyer say.

Poor pitiful puppy.

You're the big strong information boy, why are you scared to talk about my questions Joe?  Why is that?

I'm not asking you to calculate anything, I gave up on that months ago.  I know you can't actually do math.  No, I'm just asking whether any of those changes are a loss of information Joe, that's all.  yes or no.

If it helps, pretend that they are, oh I don't know, a piece of a larger sequence (like those first two that you chickened out of).

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,11:44   

Here, Joe; I'll save you the trouble.  Even though it has no relevance to Ogre's comments, you'll want to say this, so I'll do it for you and you won't have to take precious time off of your super-secret cake-batter preparation or your double classified 3 telescope (garden variety) Tom Peeping.

Quote
Still nothing about undirected processes creating, blah, blah, blah


Keep up the Basement work, Joe.  America needs you.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,12:18   

Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 13 2010,20:03)
You just need to know if it has functionality. Then you measure the specified information.

But the specified information is the same as the non-specified information. If you need to know up front what the sequence is/does, then the methodology you espouse is worthless, for you simply subjectively apply a parameter.

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,12:21   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 14 2010,00:58)
Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 13 2010,20:06)
[snip] Hey asshole, science is not done in a fucking vacuum nor on a forum.

[snip]

It was a waste of time putting those experiments on the shuttle then!

Quote
Many dealing with ion trap mobilty spectrometry & mass spectrometry. Many more dealing with electronic circuitry and electricity.

I can't get specific as it deals with security. If you can get a security clearance I could show you what I do.

Then there is astronomy. On any given night I can have 3 telescopes pointing skyward. 2 4,5" aps with a 910mm FL(one automated and one manual) as well as a 10" ap with an 1125mm FL.

And that is just the tip of the ole iceberg.

That doesn't count the experiments I conduct in my basement. Some labs would be jealous of the equipment I house & use there.

For example I now know that ticks are more attracted to watermelon rinds then they are to orange peels or orange slices. I also know that dragonflies play.


*points and laughs*

I thought ticks ate blood, why would they care about watermelons?

  
SLP



Posts: 136
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,12:23   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 14 2010,05:31)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 14 2010,00:58)
   
Quote (Joe G @ Dec. 13 2010,20:06)
Many dealing with ion trap mobilty spectrometry & mass spectrometry. Many more dealing with electronic circuitry and electricity.

I can't get specific as it deals with security. If you can get a security clearance I could show you what I do.


*points and laughs*

In other words, Joe works for the TSA putting boxes on the conveyor to the Explosive Trace Detection machine.  It was a proud day in the Gallien household when he received his royal blue shirt and black polyester pants.

I was the assistant NBC (Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical warfare) NCO of my unit when I was in the army.  As such, I was granted 'secret' clearance.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2838
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2010,12:36   

Quote (SLP @ Dec. 14 2010,10:21)
I thought ticks ate blood, why would they care about watermelons?

Because Joe tastes really bad?

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
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