Joined: Sep. 2009
Okay, let's see if we can do one more 4th incompatibility response to Heddle.
|("Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned")...states absolutely nothing, with certainty, about animal death.|
There is no logic by which Romans 5:12 absolutely precludes the possibility that, prior to Adam's sin, an elephant crushed an ant. The verse is at least arguably, if not most likely, by its construction, concerned only with humans. Even when taking about sin, it is talking about man's sin, not about sin first appearing on the earth. Why? Because Christian theology would state that Satan was already on the earth, sinning, before man’s fall.
Quite honestly, this is incorrect. There is a key phrase in 5:12 that is impossible to sidestep on any level.
|sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin|
There is literally NO translation of the Bible (check 'em!) in which this order is reversed or either clause eliminated. Sin enters this world first (via the Fall), and ONLY THEN does death--specifically, "MUT" in Genesis -- enter this world.
("Mut" applies only to biological objects that have God's "breath of life" in them---animals & humans.)
Because of this, the correct biblical answer is
"No the Edenic pre-Fall elephant doesn't get to step on the ant, and the ant-eater doesn't get to slurp up the ants, and the ants don't get to gang up on the caterpillar and drag him home for supper" (I actually saw that happen one time in my teens.)
Why not? Because "Mut" only entered this world after Adam and Eve's sin. Not before. As you would say, it's the "construction of the sentence." And it's only constructed ONE way.
Furthermore, you are directly contradicting Romans 5 (and Romans 8, btw) when you claim that sin was in the world prior to Adam and Eve's sin. The text clearly states the opposite.
Now if you wanna say that Romans 5 is incorrect because Satan was plopping around somewhere, that's fine, but understand that you automatically RE-AFFIRM the Fourth Incompatibility by doing so, because falsifying Romans 5:12-17 doesn't just mean falsifying Adam and his historical deed, but also means falsifying Christ and his historical deed too.
(Besides, Christ did NOT die for Satan's sins, did he? So that effectively means that Satan's sins don't count for Romans 5:12-17).
Pretty steep price tag there!
Now let's go to ICR's James Stambaugh, whom thou despisest or something.
|(ICR Yahoo) We are told in Hebrews 9:22, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." So a blood sacrifice is only necessary if there is sin. The rest of the Old Testament has similar treatment of sacrifice for atonement. |
If there was animal death before the fall of man, then God and all those who followed His pattern did useless acts.
One must observe that in the atonement the animal loses its life in the place of the human. If animal death existed before the fall, then the object lesson represented by the atoning sacrifice is in reality a cruel joke.
Again, biblically, Stambaugh is totally correct. The first animal sacrifice took place in Eden itself, when the Lord was forced to kill an animal to provide a covering for the shamed Adam and Eve.
Then there was Abel---God honored his sacrifice of a lamb, instead of his brother's veggie sacrifice, because the lamb's blood provided cover for sin (remember Hebrews says that without blood there is no remission for sin.)
This is no light thing. God instituted an animal sacrifice system for the people of Israel, and ultimately God would sacrifice the very best He had -- his own Son, Jesus Christ -- to give up his blood for all of humanity.
All of the previous animal sacrifices foreshadowed that world-changing event. ("The animal loses his life in place of the human", Stambaugh wrote.)
That's why Christians sometimes call Jesus "the Lamb", btw.
But now think about it. What if animals were ALREADY dying prior to the Sin of Adam and Eve? Then something has gone wrong. What are they dying for, when Adam and Eve haven't even sinned yet? How does this avoid wrecking Romans 5 and Romans 8? Moreover their worth as even a temporary covering for human sin drops to zero.
Moreover, if animals are dying before the Fall, that means you got not just elephant sqooshing ants, but flatout Nature Red In Tooth and Claw. Automatically brings up the 5th Incom.
Gotta stop there for now, but you clearly see the problems involved in your statements.