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  Topic: Can you do geology and junk the evolution bits ?, Anti science.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
fnxtr



Posts: 2136
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 31 2010,18:45   

Someone should have explained how "perfect" the discs are to my dad while he was in agony for a decade because of a couple of ruptured ones.  It was only after they figured out how to remove them and fuse the vertebrae that he was able to function again.

Oh, and years later this "intelligently designed" body conked out because his bone marrow quit producing red blood cells.

Intelligent Design my ass.

Tyrell: You were made as well as we could make you.
Roy: But not to last.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 31 2010,20:28   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 31 2010,04:19)
Anyway, you're right. I am the incarnation of evil. Hey, it's something to do at weekends.

Pfah!  No rest for the wicked; evil is a full time job, you piker!

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 31 2010,20:32   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 31 2010,18:20)
Quote (dnmlthr @ Mar. 31 2010,21:00)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 31 2010,09:19)
Anyway, you're right. I am the incarnation of evil. Hey, it's something to do at weekends.

I am so stealing that phrase for my band if you don't mind.

I expect royalties in the form of beer tributes.

Louis

Before or after they have been drunk?  And do we need to worship at the porcelain altar?

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2010,08:41   

Quote (Louis @ April 01 2010,00:20)
Quote (dnmlthr @ Mar. 31 2010,21:00)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 31 2010,09:19)
Anyway, you're right. I am the incarnation of evil. Hey, it's something to do at weekends.

I am so stealing that phrase for my band if you don't mind.

I expect royalties in the form of beer tributes.

Louis

Done. Just so you know, our earnings (beer or otherwise) are exactly 0 so far.

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2010,10:15   

Quote (Badger3k @ April 01 2010,01:32)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 31 2010,18:20)
Quote (dnmlthr @ Mar. 31 2010,21:00)
 
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 31 2010,09:19)
Anyway, you're right. I am the incarnation of evil. Hey, it's something to do at weekends.

I am so stealing that phrase for my band if you don't mind.

I expect royalties in the form of beer tributes.

Louis

Before or after they have been drunk? †And do we need to worship at the porcelain altar?

Before they have been drunk. I'm kinky, but not THAT kinky.

I *was* talking about beer, not Budweiser, so the "before" was really very strongly implied.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2010,10:18   

Quote (Wolfhound @ April 01 2010,01:28)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 31 2010,04:19)
Anyway, you're right. I am the incarnation of evil. Hey, it's something to do at weekends.

Pfah! †No rest for the wicked; evil is a full time job, you piker!

Rest assured that whilst I am the incarnation of evil only at weekends, when it is my turn, during the week I am the epitome of evil.

I even have my Evil Scientist Cackle perfected.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 01 2010,10:21   

Quote (dnmlthr @ April 01 2010,13:41)
Quote (Louis @ April 01 2010,00:20)
Quote (dnmlthr @ Mar. 31 2010,21:00)
 
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 31 2010,09:19)
Anyway, you're right. I am the incarnation of evil. Hey, it's something to do at weekends.

I am so stealing that phrase for my band if you don't mind.

I expect royalties in the form of beer tributes.

Louis

Done. Just so you know, our earnings (beer or otherwise) are exactly 0 so far.

No problem. I'll just take my 15% of the utter lack of beer you have earned so far and be done with it.

You have, however, to pay for the shipping of my percentage. Luckily the shipping company I use takes payment in beer. Two kegs of something suitable should be more than sufficient to cover our costs.

Thanks you for chosing LouisCorp as your drunken, mucky, slightly deranged agent of choice. LouisCorp: We only let you down when we're really drunk.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2010,13:29   

Quote (fnxtr @ Mar. 31 2010,18:45)
Someone should have explained how "perfect" the discs are to my dad while he was in agony for a decade because of a couple of ruptured ones. †It was only after they figured out how to remove them and fuse the vertebrae that he was able to function again.

Oh, and years later this "intelligently designed" body conked out because his bone marrow quit producing red blood cells.

Intelligent Design my ass.

Tyrell: You were made as well as we could make you.
Roy: But not to last.

I love the catch-all excuse, "Things were perfect BEFORE the fall!  It was man's inexcusable sin against god that allowed evil into the perfect world".

Of course there's more than just the back.  One can show how design, if it was used, has no intelligence evident in human:

1:  Sinuses
2:  Appendix
3:  Eyes (blind spot is a glaring example)
4:  Artery that clogs yet supplies blood for the heart.

Remember, there are three things postulated in ID:

1:  Design
2:  Intelligence
3:  Though not explicitly stated, a singular "designer"

--------------
Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
Robert Byers



Posts: 160
Joined: Nov. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2010,22:53   

Quote (Bjarne @ Mar. 30 2010,03:49)
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 30 2010,10:11)
Quote (Bjarne @ Mar. 24 2010,03:39)
 
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 24 2010,10:10)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 20 2010,09:35)
Meanwhile, over at The Panda's Thumb Byers undermines his argument:

† †  
Quote
In any issue of determining if old bones are of humans and not apes there is a clue. The bible teaches that women uniquely have great pain at childbirth. Animals do not. This is a great anatomical reality of our womenís skeleton and so if there is a female hobbit one just needs to examine, if possible, whether she had pain at childbirth by looking at her skeleton. If so we got a daughter of Adam. if not we got a dumb old monkey.


So we can tell the difference between "monkey" and human by looking at reproduction, but not marsupial and placental?

Reproduction can be different and yet not is evidence of segregated kinds.
Snakes can bear live young or by eggs yet they are still snakes.
With people there is a express intervention in nature by God to make a difference in reproduction. Animals are not affected.

Please, do you have any concrete idea, how snakes give birth? You might see that the difference between vivipary (actually ovivivipary in snakes) and ovipary is minuscule.
The difference between placental and marsupial reproduction on the other hand is less so.


And Mr.Byers, how are proteins produced in cells, if DNA does not do what we think it to do?

As I understand it. Some snakes deliver with eggs and some by live birth. The latter even have placental or close. In fact I was told this by evolution folks.

If I am not totally mistaken, viviparous snakes are actually ovoviviarous. This means, that the already eggs breed on their way through the mothers body.
As far as I know, they do not have a placenta (a placenta is only found in †the clade Eutheria) , nor something close to it.
Thus all it takes to develop ovovivipary in a oviparous animal is †the eggs to be retained in the mother's body for a longer period of time. This is everything, but a drastic change.

And Mr.Byers, would you be so kind to explain how proteins are produced in cells? After all, according to your statements , they are not produced the way we do thing them to be produced.

Just by what you said you make my case. It is quite a change. The principal is that some snakes birth live and some eggs. this is indeed a minor point but likewise placentals just"hold" thier offspring longer.
I was told by evolutionist opponents placentals were involved in the live birthing. i haven't studied it. i was educated only recently on forums like this. I see my point holding up either way.

I have no idea what your protein point is about!

  
Robert Byers



Posts: 160
Joined: Nov. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2010,23:01   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 30 2010,19:34)
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 30 2010,03:25)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 24 2010,20:07)
 
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 24 2010,03:10)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 20 2010,09:35)
Meanwhile, over at The Panda's Thumb Byers undermines his argument:

† †  
Quote
In any issue of determining if old bones are of humans and not apes there is a clue. The bible teaches that women uniquely have great pain at childbirth. Animals do not. This is a great anatomical reality of our womenís skeleton and so if there is a female hobbit one just needs to examine, if possible, whether she had pain at childbirth by looking at her skeleton. If so we got a daughter of Adam. if not we got a dumb old monkey.


So we can tell the difference between "monkey" and human by looking at reproduction, but not marsupial and placental?

Reproduction can be different and yet not is evidence of segregated kinds.
Snakes can bear live young or by eggs yet they are still snakes.
With people there is a express intervention in nature by God to make a difference in reproduction. Animals are not affected.

Umm, there is this from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy:

Quote
This condition is especially demanding in those primates in which the inner diameter of the female pelvis and the circumference of the fullterm newborn offspring are critically close to each other - for example, in some macaques, in some New World Monkeys (Namely Saimiri and Cebus)..., and in Homo sapiens. In such primates the infant may be unable to pass through the canal during labor and both mother and infant may die because of this. Only humans are able to remedy this critical situation by means of surgical interference (cesarean section). This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.
(All bolding and emphasis in the above quote were added by me.)

So, there you have it, a number of female primates feel pain during childbirth for exactly the same reason human females do - it is caused by a trade off between locomotion, birth, and resting posture. Apparently no intervention by god(s) is needed.

Stilling trying to say animals have pain at birthing. They don't. there are reasons that are accepted for this.
The pain by our women is from well understood reasons. In fact they go further and try to say evolution is the origin of it. Standing upright and getting bigger heads/shoulders .
Its not true that apes etc have like pain , like duration, like percentages.
They don't for the very reasons that even evolution invokes to explain things here.
If apes did have like pain then uprightness/head size etc would not be the reason and origin of the reasons for birth pains.
Mankind is unique from animals in this and everything.
The bible says clearly why women got pain. A punishment.

I am beginning to think that you might have some reading comprehension problems. Primates do have pain during child birth, this has been empirically confirmed by a number of investigators on many occasions. The reasons for that pain have been investigated and the quote from Ankel-Simons (one of the premier primate anatomists) is a pretty good summary of why. Unless you can come up with some studies demonstrating the contrary I see no reason why I should accept your word or the bible over that of empirical research.

Yet you persist.
My information from numerous articles i've read about it. I remember especially a nat geo article about inside of a general article on childbirth.
They said clearly apes etc don't have pain like or close to woman for very understandable reasons.

The article you quote is not about pain but about a special problem that can occur. A rarity. In fact it even here only happens because of a very special case of animal head bigness/female smallness in a few. Yet the principals for pain in our women and not animals remains the same.
If it was merely about head size then walking upright, the evolution justification for the origin of the pain, would be irrelevant.
You didn't read your your quote closely.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2136
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2010,00:44   

Robert, you are a loony and you have been spotted.

(... I just found out Mabus is Canadian, too. Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry, everyone.  Even BTO and Steppenwolf can't make up for this.)

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2010,04:27   

Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,23:01)
They said clearly apes etc don't have pain like or close to woman for very understandable reasons.

But not *no pain*. Therefore your point is disproved by your own words.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugerís work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2010,06:34   

Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,22:53)
I see my point holding up either way.

In other words, there's nothing anyone can say that will change your alleged mind.

Thanks for making that even more clear than it was before.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
† † † † † † † † † † † † - Pattiann Rogers

   
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2010,06:59   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ April 05 2010,06:34)
Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,22:53)
I see my point holding up either way.
In other words, there's nothing anyone can say that will change your alleged mind.

Thanks for making that even more clear than it was before.

Too bad the ID/YEC crowd is not populated with young ladies who could contort their bodies as well as they can their minds.

Ah, the pleasing mental picture that makes.

--------------
Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2010,07:30   

Quote (FrankH @ April 05 2010,07:59)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ April 05 2010,06:34)
Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,22:53)
I see my point holding up either way.
In other words, there's nothing anyone can say that will change your alleged mind.

Thanks for making that even more clear than it was before.

Too bad the ID/YEC crowd is not populated with young ladies who could contort their bodies as well as they can their minds.

Ah, the pleasing mental picture that makes.

But, given what lurks in their brains, would you really want to get close enough to their bodies to *ahem* admire them?  I'm sure that viewing them from afar might give you a false sense of security but who really knows the actual distance needed to safely avoid infection?  I'm pretty sure their mind virus is airborne.  *Brrrrrr*

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 2136
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2010,11:42   

Quote (Wolfhound @ April 05 2010,05:30)
Quote (FrankH @ April 05 2010,07:59)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ April 05 2010,06:34)
 
Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,22:53)
I see my point holding up either way.
In other words, there's nothing anyone can say that will change your alleged mind.

Thanks for making that even more clear than it was before.

Too bad the ID/YEC crowd is not populated with young ladies who could contort their bodies as well as they can their minds.

Ah, the pleasing mental picture that makes.

But, given what lurks in their brains, would you really want to get close enough to their bodies to *ahem* admire them? †I'm sure that viewing them from afar might give you a false sense of security but who really knows the actual distance needed to safely avoid infection? †I'm pretty sure their mind virus is airborne. †*Brrrrrr*

Yeah, in my unfortunate experience, some of the finest vessels can have some of the vilest contents. Oh, well.  Book/judge/cover.

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1011
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2010,18:55   

Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,23:01)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 30 2010,19:34)
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 30 2010,03:25)
 
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 24 2010,20:07)
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 24 2010,03:10)
†  
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 20 2010,09:35)
Meanwhile, over at The Panda's Thumb Byers undermines his argument:

† † †
Quote
In any issue of determining if old bones are of humans and not apes there is a clue. The bible teaches that women uniquely have great pain at childbirth. Animals do not. This is a great anatomical reality of our womenís skeleton and so if there is a female hobbit one just needs to examine, if possible, whether she had pain at childbirth by looking at her skeleton. If so we got a daughter of Adam. if not we got a dumb old monkey.


So we can tell the difference between "monkey" and human by looking at reproduction, but not marsupial and placental?

Reproduction can be different and yet not is evidence of segregated kinds.
Snakes can bear live young or by eggs yet they are still snakes.
With people there is a express intervention in nature by God to make a difference in reproduction. Animals are not affected.

Umm, there is this from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy:

†  
Quote
This condition is especially demanding in those primates in which the inner diameter of the female pelvis and the circumference of the fullterm newborn offspring are critically close to each other - for example, in some macaques, in some New World Monkeys (Namely Saimiri and Cebus)..., and in Homo sapiens. In such primates the infant may be unable to pass through the canal during labor and both mother and infant may die because of this. Only humans are able to remedy this critical situation by means of surgical interference (cesarean section). This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.
(All bolding and emphasis in the above quote were added by me.)

So, there you have it, a number of female primates feel pain during childbirth for exactly the same reason human females do - it is caused by a trade off between locomotion, birth, and resting posture. Apparently no intervention by god(s) is needed.

Stilling trying to say animals have pain at birthing. They don't. there are reasons that are accepted for this.
The pain by our women is from well understood reasons. In fact they go further and try to say evolution is the origin of it. Standing upright and getting bigger heads/shoulders .
Its not true that apes etc have like pain , like duration, like percentages.
They don't for the very reasons that even evolution invokes to explain things here.
If apes did have like pain then uprightness/head size etc would not be the reason and origin of the reasons for birth pains.
Mankind is unique from animals in this and everything.
The bible says clearly why women got pain. A punishment.

I am beginning to think that you might have some reading comprehension problems. Primates do have pain during child birth, this has been empirically confirmed by a number of investigators on many occasions. The reasons for that pain have been investigated and the quote from Ankel-Simons (one of the premier primate anatomists) is a pretty good summary of why. Unless you can come up with some studies demonstrating the contrary I see no reason why I should accept your word or the bible over that of empirical research.

Yet you persist.
My information from numerous articles i've read about it. I remember especially a nat geo article about inside of a general article on childbirth.
They said clearly apes etc don't have pain like or close to woman for very understandable reasons.

The article you quote is not about pain but about a special problem that can occur. A rarity. In fact it even here only happens because of a very special case of animal head bigness/female smallness in a few. Yet the principals for pain in our women and not animals remains the same.
If it was merely about head size then walking upright, the evolution justification for the origin of the pain, would be irrelevant.
You didn't read your your quote closely.

I do persist because you are wrong. Let's narrow the focus a bit. Again from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy (note that this is a book not a journal article):

Quote
This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.


Let me break it down for you. In order for big headed babies - those with highly developed brains - to be able to get through the pelvic inlet and outlet three major changes have taken place in the female pelvis. First, the sacroiliac articulation is more extended in females:



Second the greater sciatic notch is wider:



Third, the pubic rami are longer:


These three combined increase the size of both inlets. Unfortunately, this can only go so far before it begins to interfere with locomotion and sitting posture. This interferes with both bipedal locomotion (in humans) and upright sitting posture (in primates). The end result is that for primates with large brains relative to the three mentioned features of pelvic anatomy pain occurs during childbirth.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1691
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2010,15:48   

Oh Bobby my Bobby!

Please define Life.

What are the criterias that scientifically define Life?

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Bjarne



Posts: 29
Joined: Dec. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2010,07:18   

Quote (Robert Byers @ April 05 2010,05:53)
Quote (Bjarne @ Mar. 30 2010,03:49)
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 30 2010,10:11)
 
Quote (Bjarne @ Mar. 24 2010,03:39)
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 24 2010,10:10)
†  
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 20 2010,09:35)
Meanwhile, over at The Panda's Thumb Byers undermines his argument:

† † †
Quote
In any issue of determining if old bones are of humans and not apes there is a clue. The bible teaches that women uniquely have great pain at childbirth. Animals do not. This is a great anatomical reality of our womenís skeleton and so if there is a female hobbit one just needs to examine, if possible, whether she had pain at childbirth by looking at her skeleton. If so we got a daughter of Adam. if not we got a dumb old monkey.


So we can tell the difference between "monkey" and human by looking at reproduction, but not marsupial and placental?

Reproduction can be different and yet not is evidence of segregated kinds.
Snakes can bear live young or by eggs yet they are still snakes.
With people there is a express intervention in nature by God to make a difference in reproduction. Animals are not affected.

Please, do you have any concrete idea, how snakes give birth? You might see that the difference between vivipary (actually ovivivipary in snakes) and ovipary is minuscule.
The difference between placental and marsupial reproduction on the other hand is less so.


And Mr.Byers, how are proteins produced in cells, if DNA does not do what we think it to do?

As I understand it. Some snakes deliver with eggs and some by live birth. The latter even have placental or close. In fact I was told this by evolution folks.

If I am not totally mistaken, viviparous snakes are actually ovoviviarous. This means, that the already eggs breed on their way through the mothers body.
As far as I know, they do not have a placenta (a placenta is only found in †the clade Eutheria) , nor something close to it.
Thus all it takes to develop ovovivipary in a oviparous animal is †the eggs to be retained in the mother's body for a longer period of time. This is everything, but a drastic change.

And Mr.Byers, would you be so kind to explain how proteins are produced in cells? After all, according to your statements , they are not produced the way we do thing them to be produced.

Just by what you said you make my case. It is quite a change. The principal is that some snakes birth live and some eggs. this is indeed a minor point but likewise placentals just"hold" thier offspring longer.
I was told by evolutionist opponents placentals were involved in the live birthing. i haven't studied it. i was educated only recently on forums like this. I see my point holding up either way.

I have no idea what your protein point is about!

Its quite interesting how each and every fact seems to "make your point". You seem to be intellectually rather flexible.

My point on the protein synthesis is, that to our understanding DNA plays an important part in it. DNA is basically the template from which proteins are copied. It is the blueprint for all of our proteins and thus, since proteins somehow the "bricks" we are made of,it is the blueprint for ourself and all other living organisms. I van explain it a bit more in detail, if you want, but as an expert, you will surely know the mechanism already.
Yet you deny that DNA has this role and you argue, that DNA is nothing, but an inventory list. One has therefore to conclude, that you do disagree with our modern understanding of protein synthesis.
So, how are proteins produced, if DNA is not involved in protein synthesis?

   
Robert Byers



Posts: 160
Joined: Nov. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2010,21:38   

Quote (afarensis @ April 05 2010,18:55)
Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,23:01)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 30 2010,19:34)
 
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 30 2010,03:25)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 24 2010,20:07)
†  
Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 24 2010,03:10)
† †
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 20 2010,09:35)
Meanwhile, over at The Panda's Thumb Byers undermines his argument:

† † †  
Quote
In any issue of determining if old bones are of humans and not apes there is a clue. The bible teaches that women uniquely have great pain at childbirth. Animals do not. This is a great anatomical reality of our womenís skeleton and so if there is a female hobbit one just needs to examine, if possible, whether she had pain at childbirth by looking at her skeleton. If so we got a daughter of Adam. if not we got a dumb old monkey.


So we can tell the difference between "monkey" and human by looking at reproduction, but not marsupial and placental?

Reproduction can be different and yet not is evidence of segregated kinds.
Snakes can bear live young or by eggs yet they are still snakes.
With people there is a express intervention in nature by God to make a difference in reproduction. Animals are not affected.

Umm, there is this from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy:

† †
Quote
This condition is especially demanding in those primates in which the inner diameter of the female pelvis and the circumference of the fullterm newborn offspring are critically close to each other - for example, in some macaques, in some New World Monkeys (Namely Saimiri and Cebus)..., and in Homo sapiens. In such primates the infant may be unable to pass through the canal during labor and both mother and infant may die because of this. Only humans are able to remedy this critical situation by means of surgical interference (cesarean section). This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.
(All bolding and emphasis in the above quote were added by me.)

So, there you have it, a number of female primates feel pain during childbirth for exactly the same reason human females do - it is caused by a trade off between locomotion, birth, and resting posture. Apparently no intervention by god(s) is needed.

Stilling trying to say animals have pain at birthing. They don't. there are reasons that are accepted for this.
The pain by our women is from well understood reasons. In fact they go further and try to say evolution is the origin of it. Standing upright and getting bigger heads/shoulders .
Its not true that apes etc have like pain , like duration, like percentages.
They don't for the very reasons that even evolution invokes to explain things here.
If apes did have like pain then uprightness/head size etc would not be the reason and origin of the reasons for birth pains.
Mankind is unique from animals in this and everything.
The bible says clearly why women got pain. A punishment.

I am beginning to think that you might have some reading comprehension problems. Primates do have pain during child birth, this has been empirically confirmed by a number of investigators on many occasions. The reasons for that pain have been investigated and the quote from Ankel-Simons (one of the premier primate anatomists) is a pretty good summary of why. Unless you can come up with some studies demonstrating the contrary I see no reason why I should accept your word or the bible over that of empirical research.

Yet you persist.
My information from numerous articles i've read about it. I remember especially a nat geo article about inside of a general article on childbirth.
They said clearly apes etc don't have pain like or close to woman for very understandable reasons.

The article you quote is not about pain but about a special problem that can occur. A rarity. In fact it even here only happens because of a very special case of animal head bigness/female smallness in a few. Yet the principals for pain in our women and not animals remains the same.
If it was merely about head size then walking upright, the evolution justification for the origin of the pain, would be irrelevant.
You didn't read your your quote closely.

I do persist because you are wrong. Let's narrow the focus a bit. Again from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy (note that this is a book not a journal article):

Quote
This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.


Let me break it down for you. In order for big headed babies - those with highly developed brains - to be able to get through the pelvic inlet and outlet three major changes have taken place in the female pelvis. First, the sacroiliac articulation is more extended in females:



Second the greater sciatic notch is wider:



Third, the pubic rami are longer:


These three combined increase the size of both inlets. Unfortunately, this can only go so far before it begins to interfere with locomotion and sitting posture. This interferes with both bipedal locomotion (in humans) and upright sitting posture (in primates). The end result is that for primates with large brains relative to the three mentioned features of pelvic anatomy pain occurs during childbirth.

If these three points are met then perhaps indeed a ape could have like pain giving birth as our women. Yet this would be a rarity and probably could happen in many creatures.
Women have pain for real reasons. Apes don't because of lacking the same problems.
I know in the literature they say they don't.
Thats why I always bring up, though a creationist, that the explanation for womens unique pain is because of walking upright and evolution adapting the skeleton accordingly. likewise the evolved bigger head of humans is invoked.
Yet in both claims they mean that apes are not in like problems when giving birth.
Evolutionists are hear making the case for me by the explanation for the difference.
Of coarse there was no such evolving and simply the punishment of eve explains the pain.

you still seem to be saying there is no difference between woman and primates in birthpains. Yet there is such a great difference evolution invokes itself to explain why?

By the way the first time i ever heard about this was in a anthropology class textbook. I never knew women were unique in birthing in pain.

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1011
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2010,22:05   

Probably because you don't understand the material you are dealing with. As I have, repeatedly said, pain in child birth occurs in primates with babies that have large brains - squirrel monkeys and macaques spring to mind - relative to the above morphology. In the case of humans the trade of is between bipedalism, brain size, and pelvic size. In the two mentioned primates the trade off is between brain size, pelvic size, and sitting posture (which is very similar to bipedalism, the key factor being the ability to be upright). Regardless, the primates still feel pain in trying to deliver large brained babies.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2010,23:22   

Quote (afarensis @ April 08 2010,22:05)
Probably because you don't understand the material you are dealing with. As I have, repeatedly said, pain in child birth occurs in primates with babies that have large brains - squirrel monkeys and macaques spring to mind - relative to the above morphology. In the case of humans the trade of is between bipedalism, brain size, and pelvic size. In the two mentioned primates the trade off is between brain size, pelvic size, and sitting posture (which is very similar to bipedalism, the key factor being the ability to be upright). Regardless, the primates still feel pain in trying to deliver large brained babies.

Bobby's mom felt no pain at all...

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2010,06:43   

Quote (Badger3k @ April 09 2010,00:22)
Quote (afarensis @ April 08 2010,22:05)
Probably because you don't understand the material you are dealing with. As I have, repeatedly said, pain in child birth occurs in primates with babies that have large brains - squirrel monkeys and macaques spring to mind - relative to the above morphology. In the case of humans the trade of is between bipedalism, brain size, and pelvic size. In the two mentioned primates the trade off is between brain size, pelvic size, and sitting posture (which is very similar to bipedalism, the key factor being the ability to be upright). Regardless, the primates still feel pain in trying to deliver large brained babies.

Bobby's mom felt no pain at all...

<*spits coffee*>

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2010,10:45   

[quote=fnxtr,April 05 2010,11:42][/quote]
Quote
Quote (Wolfhound @ April 05 2010,05:30)
 
Quote (FrankH @ April 05 2010,07:59)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ April 05 2010,06:34)
†  
Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,22:53)
I see my point holding up either way.
In other words, there's nothing anyone can say that will change your alleged mind.

Thanks for making that even more clear than it was before.

Too bad the ID/YEC crowd is not populated with young ladies who could contort their bodies as well as they can their minds.

Ah, the pleasing mental picture that makes.

But, given what lurks in their brains, would you really want to get close enough to their bodies to *ahem* admire them? †I'm sure that viewing them from afar might give you a false sense of security but who really knows the actual distance needed to safely avoid infection? †I'm pretty sure their mind virus is airborne. †*Brrrrrr*

Yeah, in my unfortunate experience, some of the finest vessels can have some of the vilest contents. Oh, well. †Book/judge/cover.


Man...just teed up there for a mental-gutter comment to knock it out of the park. However, I refuse to be the person that goes juuuuuust a weeee bit too far...(sigh)

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2010,10:51   

Quote (Robin @ April 09 2010,11:45)
Man...just teed up there for a mental-gutter comment to knock it out of the park. However, I refuse to be the person that goes juuuuuust a weeee bit too far...(sigh)

S'okay, Robin, I'm certain that somebody here will pick up the slack.

*Paging Louis! †Louis, report to the "Can You Do Geology" thread for a dirty-up!

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2010,14:03   

Quote (Wolfhound @ April 09 2010,10:51)

Quote
Quote (Robin @ April 09 2010,11:45)
Man...just teed up there for a mental-gutter comment to knock it out of the park. However, I refuse to be the person that goes juuuuuust a weeee bit too far...(sigh)

S'okay, Robin, I'm certain that somebody here will pick up the slack.

*Paging Louis!  Louis, report to the "Can You Do Geology" thread for a dirty-up!


Heh! Thanks for moving this right along, Wolfhound!  :D

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2010,15:04   

Quote (Robin @ April 09 2010,19:03)
[quote=Wolfhound,April 09 2010,10:51][/quote]
Quote
 
Quote (Robin @ April 09 2010,11:45)
Man...just teed up there for a mental-gutter comment to knock it out of the park. However, I refuse to be the person that goes juuuuuust a weeee bit too far...(sigh)

S'okay, Robin, I'm certain that somebody here will pick up the slack.

*Paging Louis! †Louis, report to the "Can You Do Geology" thread for a dirty-up!


Heh! Thanks for moving this right along, Wolfhound! †:D

I just don't get the joke. I think that there is no correlation between human female pulchritude and intellect, or at least none that I am aware of.

Maybe I'm just not as dirty as you people.

{Haughty sniff}

Louis

P.S. ;-)

--------------
Bye.

  
Robin



Posts: 1430
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2010,08:28   

Quote (Louis @ April 09 2010,15:04)

Quote
Quote (Robin @ April 09 2010,19:03)
Quote (Wolfhound @ April 09 2010,10:51)

 
Quote
 
Quote (Robin @ April 09 2010,11:45)
Man...just teed up there for a mental-gutter comment to knock it out of the park. However, I refuse to be the person that goes juuuuuust a weeee bit too far...(sigh)

S'okay, Robin, I'm certain that somebody here will pick up the slack.

*Paging Louis!  Louis, report to the "Can You Do Geology" thread for a dirty-up!


Heh! Thanks for moving this right along, Wolfhound!  :D

I just don't get the joke. I think that there is no correlation between human female pulchritude and intellect, or at least none that I am aware of.

Maybe I'm just not as dirty as you people.

{Haughty sniff}

Louis

P.S. ;-)


I confess my thought went completely to the gutter. Something about contorted good "Christian" ladies' bodies who shouldn't be speaking their mind anyway and...

It's ok. Probably best it didn't go there since that bathroom wall is just getting filthy...

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed. †Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Quack



Posts: 1768
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2010,16:16   

Quote (Louis @ April 09 2010,15:04)
 
Quote (Robin @ April 09 2010,19:03)
 
Quote (Wolfhound @ April 09 2010,10:51)

†  
Quote
† †
Quote (Robin @ April 09 2010,11:45)
Man...just teed up there for a mental-gutter comment to knock it out of the park. However, I refuse to be the person that goes juuuuuust a weeee bit too far...(sigh)

S'okay, Robin, I'm certain that somebody here will pick up the slack.

*Paging Louis! †Louis, report to the "Can You Do Geology" thread for a dirty-up!


Heh! Thanks for moving this right along, Wolfhound! †:D

I just don't get the joke. I think that there is no correlation between human female pulchritude and intellect, or at least none that I am aware of.

Maybe I'm just not as dirty as you people.

{Haughty sniff}

Louis

P.S. ;-)

Isn't it amazing how earthworms look so clean and beautiful emerging out of the dirt? How do they manage it?

--------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself ‚ÄĒ and you are the easiest person to fool.
¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬† ¬†         Richard Feynman

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5378
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2010,17:03   

Quote (afarensis @ April 05 2010,19:55)
 
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 30 2010,19:34)
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 24 2010,20:07)
† † †
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 20 2010,09:35)
Meanwhile, over at The Panda's Thumb Byers undermines his argument:

† † † †  
Quote
In any issue of determining if old bones are of humans and not apes there is a clue. The bible teaches that women uniquely have great pain at childbirth. Animals do not. This is a great anatomical reality of our womenís skeleton and so if there is a female hobbit one just needs to examine, if possible, whether she had pain at childbirth by looking at her skeleton. If so we got a daughter of Adam. if not we got a dumb old monkey.


So we can tell the difference between "monkey" and human by looking at reproduction, but not marsupial and placental?

Umm, there is this from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy:

† † †
Quote
This condition is especially demanding in those primates in which the inner diameter of the female pelvis and the circumference of the fullterm newborn offspring are critically close to each other - for example, in some macaques, in some New World Monkeys (Namely Saimiri and Cebus)..., and in Homo sapiens. In such primates the infant may be unable to pass through the canal during labor and both mother and infant may die because of this. Only humans are able to remedy this critical situation by means of surgical interference (cesarean section). This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.
(All bolding and emphasis in the above quote were added by me.)

So, there you have it, a number of female primates feel pain during childbirth for exactly the same reason human females do - it is caused by a trade off between locomotion, birth, and resting posture. Apparently no intervention by god(s) is needed.


I am beginning to think that you might have some reading comprehension problems. Primates do have pain during child birth, this has been empirically confirmed by a number of investigators on many occasions. The reasons for that pain have been investigated and the quote from Ankel-Simons (one of the premier primate anatomists) is a pretty good summary of why. Unless you can come up with some studies demonstrating the contrary I see no reason why I should accept your word or the bible over that of empirical research.


I do persist because you are wrong. Let's narrow the focus a bit. Again from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy (note that this is a book not a journal article):

Quote
This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.


Let me break it down for you. In order for big headed babies - those with highly developed brains - to be able to get through the pelvic inlet and outlet three major changes have taken place in the female pelvis. First, the sacroiliac articulation is more extended in females:



Second the greater sciatic notch is wider:



Third, the pubic rami are longer:


These three combined increase the size of both inlets. Unfortunately, this can only go so far before it begins to interfere with locomotion and sitting posture. This interferes with both bipedal locomotion (in humans) and upright sitting posture (in primates). The end result is that for primates with large brains relative to the three mentioned features of pelvic anatomy pain occurs during childbirth.

Hey, thanks for this, Afarensis. It's interesting stuff, the now-removed idiocy from the moron notwithstanding.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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