Joined: Nov. 2009
|Quote (afarensis @ April 05 2010,18:55)|
|Quote (Robert Byers @ April 04 2010,23:01)|
|Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 30 2010,19:34)|
|Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 30 2010,03:25)|
|Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 24 2010,20:07)|
|Quote (Robert Byers @ Mar. 24 2010,03:10)|
|Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 20 2010,09:35)|
|Meanwhile, over at The Panda's Thumb Byers undermines his argument:|
|In any issue of determining if old bones are of humans and not apes there is a clue. The bible teaches that women uniquely have great pain at childbirth. Animals do not. This is a great anatomical reality of our women’s skeleton and so if there is a female hobbit one just needs to examine, if possible, whether she had pain at childbirth by looking at her skeleton. If so we got a daughter of Adam. if not we got a dumb old monkey.|
So we can tell the difference between "monkey" and human by looking at reproduction, but not marsupial and placental?
Reproduction can be different and yet not is evidence of segregated kinds.
Snakes can bear live young or by eggs yet they are still snakes.
With people there is a express intervention in nature by God to make a difference in reproduction. Animals are not affected.
Umm, there is this from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy:
(All bolding and emphasis in the above quote were added by me.)
|This condition is especially demanding in those primates in which the inner diameter of the female pelvis and the circumference of the fullterm newborn offspring are critically close to each other - for example, in some macaques, in some New World Monkeys (Namely Saimiri and Cebus)..., and in Homo sapiens. In such primates the infant may be unable to pass through the canal during labor and both mother and infant may die because of this. Only humans are able to remedy this critical situation by means of surgical interference (cesarean section). This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.|
So, there you have it, a number of female primates feel pain during childbirth for exactly the same reason human females do - it is caused by a trade off between locomotion, birth, and resting posture. Apparently no intervention by god(s) is needed.
Stilling trying to say animals have pain at birthing. They don't. there are reasons that are accepted for this.
The pain by our women is from well understood reasons. In fact they go further and try to say evolution is the origin of it. Standing upright and getting bigger heads/shoulders .
Its not true that apes etc have like pain , like duration, like percentages.
They don't for the very reasons that even evolution invokes to explain things here.
If apes did have like pain then uprightness/head size etc would not be the reason and origin of the reasons for birth pains.
Mankind is unique from animals in this and everything.
The bible says clearly why women got pain. A punishment.
I am beginning to think that you might have some reading comprehension problems. Primates do have pain during child birth, this has been empirically confirmed by a number of investigators on many occasions. The reasons for that pain have been investigated and the quote from Ankel-Simons (one of the premier primate anatomists) is a pretty good summary of why. Unless you can come up with some studies demonstrating the contrary I see no reason why I should accept your word or the bible over that of empirical research.
Yet you persist.
My information from numerous articles i've read about it. I remember especially a nat geo article about inside of a general article on childbirth.
They said clearly apes etc don't have pain like or close to woman for very understandable reasons.
The article you quote is not about pain but about a special problem that can occur. A rarity. In fact it even here only happens because of a very special case of animal head bigness/female smallness in a few. Yet the principals for pain in our women and not animals remains the same.
If it was merely about head size then walking upright, the evolution justification for the origin of the pain, would be irrelevant.
You didn't read your your quote closely.
I do persist because you are wrong. Let's narrow the focus a bit. Again from Ankel-Simons Primate Anatomy (note that this is a book not a journal article):
|This crucial "bottleneck" situation exists in other nonhuman primates that combine single births, highly developed brains, and newborns that are relatively large in correlation to the sacroiliac articulation.|
Let me break it down for you. In order for big headed babies - those with highly developed brains - to be able to get through the pelvic inlet and outlet three major changes have taken place in the female pelvis. First, the sacroiliac articulation is more extended in females:
Second the greater sciatic notch is wider:
Third, the pubic rami are longer:
These three combined increase the size of both inlets. Unfortunately, this can only go so far before it begins to interfere with locomotion and sitting posture. This interferes with both bipedal locomotion (in humans) and upright sitting posture (in primates). The end result is that for primates with large brains relative to the three mentioned features of pelvic anatomy pain occurs during childbirth.
If these three points are met then perhaps indeed a ape could have like pain giving birth as our women. Yet this would be a rarity and probably could happen in many creatures.
Women have pain for real reasons. Apes don't because of lacking the same problems.
I know in the literature they say they don't.
Thats why I always bring up, though a creationist, that the explanation for womens unique pain is because of walking upright and evolution adapting the skeleton accordingly. likewise the evolved bigger head of humans is invoked.
Yet in both claims they mean that apes are not in like problems when giving birth.
Evolutionists are hear making the case for me by the explanation for the difference.
Of coarse there was no such evolving and simply the punishment of eve explains the pain.
you still seem to be saying there is no difference between woman and primates in birthpains. Yet there is such a great difference evolution invokes itself to explain why?
By the way the first time i ever heard about this was in a anthropology class textbook. I never knew women were unique in birthing in pain.