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Bob O'H



Posts: 2329
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2010,15:48   

Hm, and this is interesting. Dembski gives his affiliation as
Quote
William Dembski, Mathematics and Information Theory; Discovery Institute, United States

Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2010,16:30   

Quote (Bob O'H @ May 01 2010,15:48)
Hm, and this is interesting. Dembski gives his affiliation as
Quote
William Dembski, Mathematics and Information Theory; Discovery Institute, United States

Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?

Quote
Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?


That and the sweater.

And the posters on UD.

And the morons that are drawn to ID like flies to honey.

Other than that, he's fine.

And being called out and publicly humiliated for his Bible Code belief.

And his belief in angels.

And faith healers.

And Denyse.

Other than that he's fine.*



* Your results may vary.  Other reasons Dembski could be embarresed may occur to you.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2184
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2010,17:43   

Quote (Bob O'H @ May 01 2010,13:48)
Hm, and this is interesting. Dembski gives his affiliation as
Quote
William Dembski, Mathematics and Information Theory; Discovery Institute, United States

Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?

It could be that even the bible college has cut him loose.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2010,18:33   

Quote (J-Dog @ May 01 2010,16:30)
 
Quote (Bob O'H @ May 01 2010,15:48)
Hm, and this is interesting. Dembski gives his affiliation as
   
Quote
William Dembski, Mathematics and Information Theory; Discovery Institute, United States

Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?

 
Quote
Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?


That and the sweater.

And the posters on UD.

And the morons that are drawn to ID like flies to honey rich organic matter.

Fixed that for you.

  
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2010,22:06   

Sigh. I'm a bit sad after looking at the articles in that journal.

Bio-Complexity

I really don't give a shit if the DiscoInstitite of fake science wants to make a fake journal, but I feel like they've potentially caused collateral damage in this case.

The article:
"Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking
Simple Adaptive Paths to High Fitness"

Is scientific B.S. in the way it will be presented--that evolution can't happen (thought the methods are interesting). Basically, they take a enzyme for Tryptophan production, with two amino acids mutated to make it non-functional, and query whether, and by what path, it can revert to producing tryptophan. An extension of some classic work where the reversions of single mutants were studied. One problem is, E. coli revert to tryptophan production in the singly mutated case at about 1 per 10^10 colonies. This study doesn't look at a large enough population, so (especially in concert with selective antibiotic) the cells are dead without tryptophan. Ok.

In the presence of a little tryptophan, the cells grow, but never re-evolve tryptophan metabolism. Why? The gross experimental over-expression of the  tryptophan synthesizing enzymes is a huge cost for the bacteria. They're spending a ton of energy on it. We see this in recombinant protein expression-you can turn them into protein factories, but they're dead by the end.  So the cells get by fine with the little tryptophan provided the media, but the synthetic system forces them to make the enzymes as 15%+ of their total protein. Sick cells. So, instead, they kick the genes, or mutations inactivating the promoter are fixed. They turn it off. The inactivating mutations have better fitness in these media conditions, even with the wild type tryptophan enzymes.

Since they kick the expression, they don't evolve tryptophan synthesis, to say the least.

Its just an inappropriate query for re-evolution of tryptophan synthesis.
Dead cells don't evolve. And healthy cells will shut off over-expression that costs them precious resources.

So, evolution worked. The bacteria dodged a worse cost to fitness by shutting down the costly production of 3 enzymes, and used the trace
tryptophan in the media to survive. In the no tryptophan supplied case, insufficient sampling size (by all known estimates of E. coli mutation rates) means the double mutant had no chance to emerge.  

Ok, so this has problems, not the least of which is that the massive synthetic overexpression can be considered to be a constraint on evolution. What about more mild overexpression? More limited tryptophan? Larger numbers screened.

What makes me sad is that it isn't just DI authors. The last (usually senior) author is Ralph Seelke, a Behe-style dipwad who got tenure at the University of Wisconsin Superior, and still teaches, etc., with the University putting "The contents of these pages do not necessarily reflect the views of UW-Superior and are not officially endorsed by the university" on his website and having to make sure he's sticking with the curriculum. Fine. Academic freedom. Whatever.

His undergraduate student is second author. And this is what makes me sad. A google search of her name turns up that she was a McNair Schlar at UW-Superior. McNair scholarships are given out by the Department of Education to prepare postbaccalaureate students for Graduate Studies-PhD programs, particularly preparing "eligible, first generation college students and students from groups underrepresented in graduate education for doctoral study." This fellowship is named in honor of the astronaut, Ronald McNair, Ph.D., who died on the Challenger.

So UW-Superior took DOE money and a prestigious young undergrad and handed her over to the Prof. they disavow?

Using her stipend, she conducts reasonably good research with an interesting conclusion--in the scientific sense, not what is published.
(see her poster here: www.uwsuper.edu/mcnair/newsletters/upload/2006_winter.pdf
you'll have to flip the pic, it was crudely mirrored).

This research (which may have been publishable in an undergrad journal--they're quite accommodating) winds up in a creationist front?

Does UW-Superior have a collaboration with the DI? Do they support their federally funded research and undergrad fellows research being used for creationist research? Do the support publication in non-standard, non-peer reviewed journals? Should the DOED expect further promising scholars to be trained in creationism? Was the scholar informed of and accepting of this publication in a creationist journal?

The Merck Foundation is also listed in the acknowledgment for support. Wonder what they think. Fuck, I'd like Merck funding.

  
sparc



Posts: 2010
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2010,23:04   

Rec, they are waiting for your critique to publish it in Bio-Complexity. From the paper:
Quote
Notes: A Critique of this paper, when available, will be assigned doi:10.5048/BIO-C.2010.2.c.


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2010,23:24   

Quote (sparc @ May 01 2010,23:04)
Rec, they are waiting for your critique to publish it in Bio-Complexity. From the paper:  
Quote
Notes: A Critique of this paper, when available, will be assigned doi:10.5048/BIO-C.2010.2.c.

As If. We know the DI policy on dissent.

Edit: AND, I don't want to be listed for life as one of their 'authors,' even if it is of a critique.

  
keiths



Posts: 2190
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 01 2010,23:55   

Quote (Dr.GH @ May 01 2010,15:43)
Quote (Bob O'H @ May 01 2010,13:48)
Hm, and this is interesting. Dembski gives his affiliation as
Quote
William Dembski, Mathematics and Information Theory; Discovery Institute, United States

Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?

It could be that even the bible college has cut him loose.

Maybe so.  He certainly fails to meet at least a couple of their expectations for faculty members:
Quote
Expectations of the Faculty

Southwestern’s 100-year legacy includes faculty who have faithfully demonstrated biblical models of leadership and character. The seminary believes that an elite faculty produces elite students who will honor the name of Christ wherever God calls them. President Paige Patterson gives every faculty member a list of expectations that exemplify Christ-like attitudes and behaviors. Students can be confident that they are being trained and mentored under godly men and women who are committed to Christ, their families, their churches, Southern Baptists, Southwestern and their students.

A man or woman who walks with God

A faithful husband or wife

An attentive father or mother

A consistent witness

A churchman and a tither

Endorses, honors, and knows the Baptist Faith and Message 2000

A voracious reader

A stimulating lecturer

A friend to students, being at once both just and challenging

A writing project with realistic goals

Faithful to chapel (2 days out of 3)

Loyal to Christ, to Southern Baptists, and to SWBTS

Maintains a sense of humor

Involved in missions

Morally and ethically exemplary


Uh-oh.  Time to polish the resume, Bill.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
sparc



Posts: 2010
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,00:08   

Quote (sparc @ May 01 2010,13:50)
     
Quote (olegt @ May 01 2010,09:03)
The editorial board includes everybody who is somebody in ID*.  It might end up being a rather incestuous affair.  The papers published so far include members of the editorial board as coauthors.  

*And beyond: Stuart Burgess and Colin Reeves are UK creationists.

Funny, that German Creationist Siegfried Scherer is on the board. IIRC he once was a fellow of the Discovery Institute. However, he later dismissed ID as being not scientific. His alternative "Biblische Schoepfungslehre", though, isn't better but had the advantage of being openly hard core creationism.


Just to add references: According to this news article Scherer said in public that ID is not science.


He later published a post on his own webpages which explicitly states that ID is "no scientific alternative for biological evolution theories"science " (translation mine)   
Quote
"Intelligent Design" ist keine naturwissenschaftliche Alternative zu biologischen Evolutionstheorien

WIll the journal thus be open to YEC and OEC?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 2010
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,00:17   

Quote (keiths @ May 01 2010,23:55)
Quote (Dr.GH @ May 01 2010,15:43)
 
Quote (Bob O'H @ May 01 2010,13:48)
Hm, and this is interesting. Dembski gives his affiliation as
 
Quote
William Dembski, Mathematics and Information Theory; Discovery Institute, United States

Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?

It could be that even the bible college has cut him loose.

Maybe so.  He certainly fails to meet at least a couple of their expectations for faculty members:
 
Quote
Expectations of the Faculty

Southwestern’s 100-year legacy includes faculty who have faithfully demonstrated biblical models of leadership and character. The seminary believes that an elite faculty produces elite students who will honor the name of Christ wherever God calls them. President Paige Patterson gives every faculty member a list of expectations that exemplify Christ-like attitudes and behaviors. Students can be confident that they are being trained and mentored under godly men and women who are committed to Christ, their families, their churches, Southern Baptists, Southwestern and their students.

A man or woman who walks with God

A faithful husband or wife

An attentive father or mother

A consistent witness

A churchman and a tither

Endorses, honors, and knows the Baptist Faith and Message 2000

A voracious reader

A stimulating lecturer

A friend to students, being at once both just and challenging

A writing project with realistic goals

Faithful to chapel (2 days out of 3)

Loyal to Christ, to Southern Baptists, and to SWBTS

Maintains a sense of humor

Involved in missions

Morally and ethically exemplary


Uh-oh.  Time to polish the resume, Bill.

From what I've seen on youtube he doesn't meet the criterium of being  
Quote
A stimulating lecturer
. And it is quite telling if you have to publish your own journal to fulfill the demand of  
Quote
A writing project with realistic goals


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 2010
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,00:28   

Quote
3
Granville Sewell
05/01/2010
4:01 pm

Wow, this looks great, a really big step forward for the biological sciences! Congratulations to everyone involved, looks like a stellar lunar lunatic editorial board!
Fixed that for you, Granville.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
CeilingCat



Posts: 2186
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,02:27   

This guy:    
Quote
Editorial Board

David Abel, Origin of Life; The Origin-of-Life Science Foundation, United States

is an out and out crank.

Check out his home-made web site featuring 17 different colors, none of which occur in nature, childish design and oodles of drivel about the Cybernetic Cut.

Verdict: Good choice.  Fits right in with the rest of the board.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2186
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,02:29   

Quote (Bob O'H @ May 01 2010,15:48)
Hm, and this is interesting. Dembski gives his affiliation as
 
Quote
William Dembski, Mathematics and Information Theory; Discovery Institute, United States

Could he be embarrassed at being in a bible school?

That's pretty sad, when you work at an institution so intellectually dismal that you list your affiliation as the Discovery Institute instead.

  
utidjian



Posts: 185
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,03:11   

I figured I would take a peek at ratemyprofessor.com to see if Dembski had an entry... and he does:
William Dembski at SBC

Loved this entry:
Quote
You could NOT design a worse professor.

(bolding mine)

Last entry was in March of 2007. Perhaps he hasn't been teaching much in the past three years.

-DU-

--------------
Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,03:59   

So if there is a paper on Biology who does the peer review? biologists or theologians

  
sparc



Posts: 2010
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,04:00   

Quote (utidjian @ May 02 2010,03:11)
I figured I would take a peek at ratemyprofessor.com to see if Dembski had an entry... and he does:
William Dembski at SBC

Loved this entry:
Quote
You could NOT design a worse professor.

(bolding mine)

Last entry was in March of 2007. Perhaps he hasn't been teaching much in the past three years.

-DU-

Why is he listed under "Finance" department?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
DiEb



Posts: 288
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,04:10   

From Bio-Diversity's Author Guidelines:

Quote
To facilitate review, manuscripts should be prepared as MS Word documents (in Times or Times New Roman 12 pt with 1.5 line spacing) with numbered pages, complete with all elements (figures, tables, equations, etc.) that should be present in the final published PDF file.


They don't expect many mathematicians to publish there, I suppose...

   
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,04:31   

Quote (sparc @ May 02 2010,19:00)
Quote (utidjian @ May 02 2010,03:11)
I figured I would take a peek at ratemyprofessor.com to see if Dembski had an entry... and he does:
William Dembski at SBC

Loved this entry:
 
Quote
You could NOT design a worse professor.

(bolding mine)

Last entry was in March of 2007. Perhaps he hasn't been teaching much in the past three years.

-DU-

Why is he listed under "Finance" department?

Wasn't he going to give a seminar in ID finance or something?

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,04:33   

Quote (DiEb @ May 02 2010,19:10)
From Bio-Diversity's Author Guidelines:

 
Quote
To facilitate review, manuscripts should be prepared as MS Word documents (in Times or Times New Roman 12 pt with 1.5 line spacing) with numbered pages, complete with all elements (figures, tables, equations, etc.) that should be present in the final published PDF file.


They don't expect many mathematicians to publish there, I suppose...

What do mathematicians normally do?

  
DiEb



Posts: 288
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,04:36   

Quote (MichaelJ @ May 02 2010,04:33)
Quote (DiEb @ May 02 2010,19:10)
From Bio-Diversity's Author Guidelines:

 
Quote
To facilitate review, manuscripts should be prepared as MS Word documents (in Times or Times New Roman 12 pt with 1.5 line spacing) with numbered pages, complete with all elements (figures, tables, equations, etc.) that should be present in the final published PDF file.


They don't expect many mathematicians to publish there, I suppose...

What do mathematicians normally do?

LaTeX/TeX (it really depends on their age, I presume)

It isn't easy to generate mathematical formulas in Word - and they look like crap.

   
utidjian



Posts: 185
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,04:56   

Quote (DiEb @ May 02 2010,04:36)
Quote (MichaelJ @ May 02 2010,04:33)
Quote (DiEb @ May 02 2010,19:10)
From Bio-Diversity's Author Guidelines:

   
Quote
To facilitate review, manuscripts should be prepared as MS Word documents (in Times or Times New Roman 12 pt with 1.5 line spacing) with numbered pages, complete with all elements (figures, tables, equations, etc.) that should be present in the final published PDF file.


They don't expect many mathematicians to publish there, I suppose...

What do mathematicians normally do?

LaTeX/TeX (it really depends on their age, I presume)

It isn't easy to generate mathematical formulas in Word - and they look like crap.

Agreed, for math there is little substitute for TeX/LaTeX. Word has always sucked for doing math. Many of my physics colleagues use Word for physics though. I prefer LyX (basically a GUI for LaTeX.) Are mathematicians still using plain TeX/LaTex?

I suppose I could go down tha hall and ask some of our new professors but... not too many of them here at 6AM on a Sunday :P

-DU-

--------------
Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,06:07   

Quote (utidjian @ May 02 2010,19:56)
Quote (DiEb @ May 02 2010,04:36)
Quote (MichaelJ @ May 02 2010,04:33)
 
Quote (DiEb @ May 02 2010,19:10)
From Bio-Diversity's Author Guidelines:

   
Quote
To facilitate review, manuscripts should be prepared as MS Word documents (in Times or Times New Roman 12 pt with 1.5 line spacing) with numbered pages, complete with all elements (figures, tables, equations, etc.) that should be present in the final published PDF file.


They don't expect many mathematicians to publish there, I suppose...

What do mathematicians normally do?

LaTeX/TeX (it really depends on their age, I presume)

It isn't easy to generate mathematical formulas in Word - and they look like crap.

Agreed, for math there is little substitute for TeX/LaTeX. Word has always sucked for doing math. Many of my physics colleagues use Word for physics though. I prefer LyX (basically a GUI for LaTeX.) Are mathematicians still using plain TeX/LaTex?

I suppose I could go down tha hall and ask some of our new professors but... not too many of them here at 6AM on a Sunday :P

-DU-

Gee, I amost got a little tear in my eye. I remember using Latex 25 years ago. It suppose it was pretty common in unis but we worked in a large firm.
This was pre-PC when word processors could only do bold, italic and underline.

When our group started producing multi-font multi-sized reports with embedded diagrams we were like kings

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,06:34   

Quote (MichaelJ @ May 02 2010,04:59)
So if there is a paper on Biology who does the peer review? biologists or theologians

A crack team of dentists, appliance repairmen, civil engineers and retired military personnel is on hand at all times.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,06:40   

LaTeX is alive and well in physics.  In my field of condensed matter, experimentalists often submit their papers in MS Word, but theorists almost invariably use LaTeX.  Nature Physics accepts both.  The preferred format for arXiv submissions is TeX or LaTeX.  

And it's not just equations, even fonts look more professional in TeX-generated documents!

But I doubt that there are many biology journals that accept TeX, so no surprise that BC is Word-oriented.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,06:57   

Quote (olegt @ May 02 2010,21:40)
LaTeX is alive and well in physics.  In my field of condensed matter, experimentalists often submit their papers in MS Word, but theorists almost invariably use LaTeX.  Nature Physics accepts both.  The preferred format for arXiv submissions is TeX or LaTeX.  

And it's not just equations, even fonts look more professional in TeX-generated documents!

But I doubt that there are many biology journals that accept TeX, so no surprise that BC is Word-oriented.

If having a well formatted document is important I think Word is a pain. I've had the pleasure of formatting some dissertations for some friends and no matter how careful I am with the initial styles setup, I make a minor change to a heading in the body and for some reason the appendix will go into a bold font or something similarly weird.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2329
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,07:09   

Quote (DiEb @ May 02 2010,04:10)
From Bio-Diversity's Author Guidelines:

 
Quote
To facilitate review, manuscripts should be prepared as MS Word documents (in Times or Times New Roman 12 pt with 1.5 line spacing) with numbered pages, complete with all elements (figures, tables, equations, etc.) that should be present in the final published PDF file.


They don't expect many mathematicians to publish there, I suppose...

In fairness, it's a restriction placed on them by the software - we use the same software for JNR. It's free, so is a natural choice.

BTW, interesting they don't have a managing editor to do the admin, but they do have a copy editor. So they need someone to clean up the writing, but not someone to produce the proofs etc.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,08:25   

Quote (sparc @ May 02 2010,06:08)
WIll the journal thus be open to YEC and OEC?

I checked some people on that board whose names I hadn't heard before.

Peter Imming is listed for organic chemistry, but is actually a prof for pharmaceutical chemistry. He questions common descent especially for humans and apes.
 
Quote
Nun ist an der Evolution der Hominiden allerdings nur unumstritten, dass sie umstritten ist, was angesichts der wenigen Fossilien auch kein wissenschaftliches Wunder ist. [...] Bedenkt man, dass es kein einziges wirklich für alt gehaltenes Schimpansenfossil gibt, so wird der Wagemut mancher Forscher offenbar, aus den oft dünnen Daten ein Modell Millionen Jahre langer Abstammungsgeschichte von Menschen und Tieren zu konstruieren. Darüber hinaus wird hier ein Gedankensprung sichtbar, der vielen Organismen-Vergleichen innewohnt und normalerweise nicht klar benannt wird. Man findet Ähnlichkeiten und interpretiert sie als Beweis für Evolution. Die Ähnlichkeiten haben aber eo ipso diese Beweiskraft nicht, sondern man war in die ganze Überlegung mit der Annahme eingestiegen, dass alle Lebewesen durch ungelenkte Evolution auseinander entstanden seien. Und diese Annahme findet man zwangsläufig wieder. Die alternative Folgerung, dass die Ähnlichkeiten auf einen gemeinsamen Baumeister zurückgehen, wird aus meist nicht erläuterten Gründen nicht erwogen.

Source: Affen sind anders - aber wie?

William Basener seems to have a problem with scientific naturalism (and proof reading).
 
Quote
I believe in a a Bible-based God Who is the Creator of the univesre: [...]

Isn't this old fashioned? In this day of modern Science, do we still need God?  Modern science has brought us great knowledge and power, but not great love and morality. When modern science brings us nuclear weapons, I am certain I need God. When science provides efficiently deadly chemicals, I am certain I need God.

There is a logical flaw in believing that science superscedes faith. Science is knowlege obtained by experimentation and faith enables us to handle that knowlege. Today's modern culture often confuses the philosophical belief system of scientific naturalism with true science. Scientific naturalism is the belief that the experimental universe is all that exists. It is illogical to conclude that science, which deals soley with experiements, can demonstrate the validity of scientific naturalism, a system of faith concerning things beyond the experimental universe.

Source

Edward T. Peltzer was at the Kansas evolution hearings:
 
Quote
Q. First of all, I would like to have your opinion as to what the age of the world is.

A. The-- the best scientific evidence for this is based on the age of meteorites. This-- this was determined by Clair Patterson.

Q. Sir, I-- I'm just asking you what the age is, I'm not interested in the process right now. What is your opinion as to what the age of the world is.

A. I'm-- I'm getting to that.

Q. Just if-- please, I'm asking you, just tell me what you think the age is. I'm not interested in an explanation, I'm just interested in what you believe the age of the world is.

A. I'm-- I'm trying to do that, if you would--

MR. IRIGONEGARAY: Mr. Abrams, the question, as we agreed, is a direct question. It calls for simply an age.

Q. (BY MR. IRIGONEGARAY) If you know it, say so. If you don't, say you don't.

A. Very well. 4.596 billion years.

Q. Do you accept the general principle of common descent, that all life is biologically related to the beginning of life? Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. Do you accept that human beings are related by common descent to prehominid ancestors? Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. What is the alternative explanation for how the human species came into existence if you do not accept common descent?

A. Are you going to allow me to do an explanation?

Q. I'm asking you just to answer the question, please. Would you like for me to repeat it?

A. Yes.

Q. If you do not accept common descent as an explanation for the human species, how did we come into existence?

A. That is the question that science is trying to answer--

Q. No, sir--

A. -- I don't know.

Q. -- my question is, how do you explain it?

A. I don't know. That is the question. There are serious problems with common descent. There are serious problems. It hasn't been demonstrated. There are serious questions there.

Q. I'm not asking you, sir-- I'm only asking you if you do not accept common descent, do you have an explanation for it? Yes or no.

A. As a chemist, I do not. I do not study this.

Q. The minority report says that, "In science we must compare competing hypotheses." Is there a competing hypothesis to common descent that you're aware of?

A. Yes, there is.

Q. And what is that?

A. That would be intelligent design.


Of course, that doesn't make the journal ID-friendly, because, as Atom puts it:
 
Quote
Just that fact that a journal allows for papers presenting ID findings is, I guess, enough to make us feel it is ID friendly. Friendly, of course, is a relative term when journal editors hostile to ID abound.

Abound. Indeed.

ETA: The names that I know from that list are either directly involved with ID or just old-fashioned creationists (mainly Europeans that do not need to pretend that their position is not religious):
Abel, Axe, Behe, Carlson, Dembski, Marks, Peltzer, Seelke, Snoke, Sternberg, Wells and
Bradley, Burgess, Imming, Lönnig, Scherer.

Bradley is listed at CreationWiki, Carlson was a witness at the Kansas evolution hearings:
Quote
Q. Do you accept the general principle of common descent, which is that all of life is biologically related back to the beginning of life?

A. I-- no. I believe that, as I said, with the term evolution I think common descent is also one where there's-- you know, there's no problem with-- in--

Q. Sir, my question was whether you agree--

A. My comments on--

Q. I'm just asking you whether you agree or not. Do you-- let me repeat the question. I'm not interested in an explanation.

A. Well--

Q. Do you accept-- just please listen to me.

A. I would like--

Q. This is a yes or no question.

A. Yeah.

Q. Do you accept the general principle of common descent, that all of life is biologically related back to the beginning of life? Yes or no.

A. No.

Q. Do you accept that human beings are related by common descent to prehominid ancestors? Yes or no.

A. I don't accept that as a fact.

Q. I did not hear you.

A. I don't accept that as being a fact, a scientifically-proven fact.

Q. If that is not acceptable to you, what alternative explanation do you propose for how the human species came into existence?

A. That's-- I don't-- I don't have an alternative position on that. That's not my area.

Q. So would it be fair to say that you do not agree with evolutionary theory as far as the common descent principles for the human species, but you do not have an answer as to how it happened?

A. I do not-- I do not have a scientific answer as to how it happened, no.

Q. Is it your opinion that it happened as a result of intelligent design?

A. I believe that design is a-- is-- is a possible-- possible explanation and it should be investigated, yeah.

Q. But you are not suggesting that intelligent design is the answer?

A. Well, scientifically I don't think that's been determined yet, but I think it should be one that's considered.


--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,09:25   

More:
Charles Garner was one of the Disco 'tutes approved reviewers of the TEKS science standards in 2008 (pdf)
Loren Haarsma works at Calvin college, which says it all...
James Keener is an ASA member who seems to be (mainly) a TE. OTOH he was/is listed as a fellow of ISCID.
As is Jed Macosko (and a good deal of the rest of the editorial board, btw).

ETA: Colin Reeves is a trustee of Biblical Creation Ministries.
Scott Turner wasfeatured at Jeffrey Shallit's blog Recursivity. He wrote a pro-ID book: The Tinkerer's Accomplice: How Design Emerges from Life Itself

Ji?í Vácha seems to be pro-ID, too.
And finally, John Walton is believed to be a Seventh Day Adventist. Walton provided a foreword to the book Creationism Revisited by the Adventist creationist Colin Mitchell.

So, by my count at least 23 of 24 members of the editorial board that I've looked up are either flat-out creationists or ID proponents.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
sparc



Posts: 2010
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,10:12   

YECs welcome Bio-Complexity:
Quote
I cannot tell you how many Atheists have asked for real peer reviewed scientific papers on Biblical Creation or the lesser, Intelligent Design. Many Atheists I know, religiously, rely on science as their ONLY  source of life's questions.

Well my friends, this year introduces the new:
Bio-Complexity


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3086
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2010,11:45   

Quote (CeilingCat @ May 02 2010,00:27)
This guy:          
Quote
Editorial Board

David Abel, Origin of Life; The Origin-of-Life Science Foundation, United States

is an out and out crank.

Check out his home-made web site featuring 17 different colors, none of which occur in nature, childish design and oodles of drivel about the Cybernetic Cut.

Verdict: Good choice.  Fits right in with the rest of the board.

   
Quote
Is your model scientifically plausible? To test this, the scientific method my bullshit requires that you calculate a Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM, Xi), and that you apply the Universal Plausbililty Principle to your model.



Wow. Procrustes would be proud.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
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