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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 2, general discussion of Dembski's site< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2008,22:35   

Quote
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 06 2008,06:04)
Salvador Cordova still has it...

Quote
Not to mention his four posts referencing representative "Barney Fag."

There's a class act, and right Christian, too.


well.... don't you know....

God Hates Fags.

erm my phone is ringing.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,06:51   

Dr. Dr.:      
Quote
6 October 2008
Chunkdz at the Panda’s Thumb
William Dembski
This just in from a colleague:

I encourage you to take a look at the Panda’s Thumb and follow the entire thread devoted to the optimality of the genetic code. It is simply priceless. Someone styling himself Chunkdz dominates the discussion and by virtue of a very considerable gift for profane abuse, succeeds in doing what I never thought possible, and that is reducing the entire PT crowd to sputtering, dim-witted incoherence. You must link to it.

(Does the Dr. Dr. really understand what "link to it" means?  And does he really have a colleague?)

     
Quote
5

BDKnight

10/07/2008

3:26 am
Seems the PT people did just fine. What are the passages, exactly, where he schooled them?

6

BDKnight

10/07/2008

3:29 am
(And I’m not talking about silly troll-talk, but in the science)

7

BDKnight

10/07/2008

3:42 am
The reason I ask is because the post Dembski linked to shows (using the original paper) that chunkz misunderstood their results. He claimed they showed that the code is a global optimum, where the optimum is over all possible genetic codes.

However, they didn’t actually do that analysis, indeed it has been done and it has been shown it is far from optimal. That was the starting point of the paper!

The original paper, misread by chunky:
[O]ther analyses have shown that significantly better code structures are possible. Here, we show that if theoretically possible code structures are limited to reflect plausible biological constraints, and amino acid similarity is quantified using empirical data of substitution frequencies, the canonical code is at or very close to a global optimum for error minimization across plausible parameter space.

So this isn’t a global optimum over all possible codes, but is within a constrained parameter space. Plus, they say this result is highly likely no matter where you start (few of the local minima are far from the global minima within this restricted search space).

Good stuff, but I don't think BDKnight is long for this world.  Meanwhile, I can't help but notice that Dr. Dr. D. is much more impressed by trashtalk than understanding the science he's talking about.  An ignorant a**hole is fine with him so long as he's a pro-ID IA.

Edited to add asterisks and spell "fine" correctly.

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Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
sparc



Posts: 1708
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,11:46   

Quote


1

tragicmishap

10/07/2008

10:41 am

The Large what Collider?

Dave will find the answer at answers.com

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Ptaylor



Posts: 888
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,14:28   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Oct. 07 2008,06:51)
Good stuff, but I don't think BDKnight is long for this world.

As you predicted:
 
Quote
[BDKnight is no longer with this forum. --UD Moderation]


--------------
“To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.” - Isaac Asimov

"Grow up, assface" - Joe G., grown up ID spokesperson, Sandwalk, April 2014

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,15:52   

And the banned played on.

Welcoming BDKnight in 3... 2...

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1238
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,17:26   

Quote
7 October 2008
Score one for Scientific Creationism ?!
DaveScot
In another venue where I participate this article published in Arvix, Evidence for Correlations Between Nuclear Decay Rates and Earth-Sun Distance, and previous articles from the same source published in recent months, is undergoing a lively discussion.

In a nutshell, a couple of earth based research programs measuring the half lives of radioisotopes have a significant seasonal variation in the raw data values which correlate with distance from the sun. It was brought to our attention by scientific creationists who are constantly on the lookout for things which might dispute the widely accepted yardsticks used to measure geologic age.


Yeah, the scientific creationists predicted that decay rates would depend on the distance from the sun! :D

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Henry J



Posts: 4076
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,17:31   

Is that with any particular radioisotope, or particular decay modes, or what? Is it proportional to Earth-sun distance? (If so, the variation wouldn't matter much to age of Earth, since Earth can't have gotten much closer or further from the sun without drastic climate change.)

Henry

  
Reed



Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,17:54   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 07 2008,15:31)
Is that with any particular radioisotope, or particular decay modes, or what? Is it proportional to Earth-sun distance? (If so, the variation wouldn't matter much to age of Earth, since Earth can't have gotten much closer or further from the sun without drastic climate change.)

Henry

Evidence for Correlations Between Nuclear Decay Rates and Earth-Sun Distance
       
Quote

While the mechanism responsible for this phenomenon is unknown, theories involving variations in fundamental constants could give rise to such effects. These results are also consistent with the correlation between nuclear decay rates and solar activity suggested by Jenkins and Fischbach [18] if the latter effect is interpreted as possibly arising from a change in the solar neutrino flux. These conclusions can be tested in a number of ways. In addition to repeating long-term decay measurements on Earth, measurements on radioactive samples carried aboard spacecraft to other planets would be very useful since the sample-Sun distance would then vary over a much wider range. The neutrino flux hypothesis might also be tested using samples placed in the neutrino flux produced by nuclear reactors.

I guess they didn't mention GODDIDIT because they didn't want to state the obvious.

There has subsequently been an attempt to determine if this is effect can be detected in RTG outputs of deep space craft, but no evidence was found. On the other hand, an RTG that you can only monitor by telemetry over millions of km is a fairly blunt instrument. On the third hand, these spacecraft change their distance from the sun by vastly greater amounts than the earth does.

See also this blog post: http://www.astroengine.com/?p=1382

So yes, an interesting bit of science. Evidence for creationism ? Not so much. Assuming the effect is real and the mechanism is discovered, it could cause problems for existing models (ages based on decay rates), but DaveScot makes the classic creo mistake of assuming problems with current theory would be support for his.

  
stevestory



Posts: 8936
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,18:44   

Quote (Reed @ Oct. 07 2008,18:54)
So yes, an interesting bit of science. Evidence for creationism ? Not so much. Assuming the effect is real and the mechanism is discovered, it could cause problems for existing models (ages based on decay rates), but DaveScot makes the classic creo mistake of assuming problems with current theory would be support for his.

I don't think so. I just skimmed the paper and they're talking about fluctuations in the decay rate on the order of 10-3. About ten million times too small to be of any use to the homophobic Salvador.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,19:14   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Oct. 07 2008,17:26)
 
Quote
7 October 2008
Score one for Scientific Creationism ?!
DaveScot
In another venue where I participate this article published in Arvix, Evidence for Correlations Between Nuclear Decay Rates and Earth-Sun Distance, and previous articles from the same source published in recent months, is undergoing a lively discussion.

Did DT really type Arvix when he meant arXiv?

Poser...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Henry J



Posts: 4076
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,21:26   

Did the decay speed up when closer to the sun, or when further away from it? If collisions from neutrinos has anything to do with it I'd expect the faster decay rate to be when closer to the sun.

Henry

  
stevestory



Posts: 8936
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,22:24   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 07 2008,22:26)
Did the decay speed up when closer to the sun, or when further away from it? If collisions from neutrinos has anything to do with it I'd expect the faster decay rate to be when closer to the sun.

Henry

Looks like moving closer to the sun makes the decays faster. Funny thing is the two isotopes use two different decay processes. Alpha for Ra-226, beta for Si-32.

   
Henry J



Posts: 4076
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,23:03   

Quote
Looks like moving closer to the sun makes the decays faster. Funny thing is the two isotopes use two different decay processes. Alpha for Ra-226, beta for Si-32.


Weird.

Henry

  
sparc



Posts: 1708
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2008,23:38   

Unfortunately, DaveScot corrected "Hardon Collider" to "Hadron Colider".
ETA:
BIG SCIENCE is so ... ehm ... masculin. Maybe this explains why the majority of SciAm subscribers are males.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
CeilingCat



Posts: 1670
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,00:28   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Oct. 07 2008,14:28)
 
Quote (CeilingCat @ Oct. 07 2008,06:51)
Good stuff, but I don't think BDKnight is long for this world.

As you predicted:
     
Quote
[BDKnight is no longer with this forum. --UD Moderation]

Even that is gone now.

--------------
Like every other academic field, philosophy of religion has its share of hacks and mediocrities.  Edward Feser

  
stevestory



Posts: 8936
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,00:45   

"even that is gone now"

Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked, have been sacked.

(not entirely accurate, but still funny i think)

   
stevestory



Posts: 8936
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,00:47   

* Møøse trained by YUTTE HERMSGERVØRDENBRØTBØRDA
* Special Møøse Effects OLAF PROT
Møøse Costumes SIGGI CHURCHILL
* Møøse Choreographed by HORST PROT III
Miss Taylor's Møøses by HENGST DOUGLAS-HOME
* Møøse trained to mix concrete and sign
com plicated insurance forms by JURGEN WIGG

   
sparc



Posts: 1708
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,01:47   

It is quite telling whom DaveScot is citing:  
Quote
Copyright 2008, Creators Syndicate Inc
emphasis mine

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,04:19   

The implications of the issue are obvious to Gil
 
Quote
Perhaps we’ll discover that the speed of light has changed, or that time itself has morphed in such a way that six days in contemporary time is mathematically equivalent to 13 billions years in morphed cosmological time. I was dead wrong about Darwinian orthodoxy, so I’m open to being proven wrong about my assumptions when it comes to the mysteries of the universe, about which we obviously only have a slight inkling.

Tard
Do tell us more about this "time morphing" which will prove the YECs correct.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,10:25   

Quote (BopDiddy @ Oct. 06 2008,16:45)
Quote (Zachriel @ Oct. 06 2008,07:13)
I was going to register for Scordova's Young Cosmos, to link to my previous comment, but I couldn't figure it out. Then I noticed that the vast majority of the recent comments were by John A. Davison.


I must say, that while I think the claim of LOLing is a tad overused and overstated, I did, for the only the 2nd or 3rd time in my internet discussion forum career, actually laugh out loud when I saw that picture.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,10:49   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Oct. 07 2008,17:26)
   
Quote
7 October 2008
Score one for Scientific Creationism ?!
DaveScot
In another venue where I participate this article published in Arvix, Evidence for Correlations Between Nuclear Decay Rates and Earth-Sun Distance, and previous articles from the same source published in recent months, is undergoing a lively discussion.

Good to see that DT still reads AtBC. He's now edited his post so that he appears less ignorant of the physics literature...
   
Quote
In another venue where I participate this article published at arXiv, Evidence for Correlations Between Nuclear Decay Rates and Earth-Sun Distance, and previous articles from the same source published in recent months, is undergoing a lively discussion.

But guess what, DT?  You're still a poser.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,11:09   

I think the decay rate variation is one of the coolest conundrums to show up in a while. Of course the jury is still out as to whether it is real--but I think the answer should not be too hard to ascertain.

It is unfortunate but predictable that YECs are trumpeting this as helpful to their cause. The magnitude of the conspiracy would be impressive. All isotopes and decay modes used in radiometric dating would have to be affected in the same manner to give the same wrong answer. And non radiometric methods would have to join in the conspiracy too.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:55   

heddle perhaps we should halt all federal spending on non-essential projects and never find out?  

what, spend 3 million dollars on decay rates?  that'ar bible dont say NUTHIN about no neutrinoes.  kill it.  damn libruls

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,12:57   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 08 2008,12:55)
heddle perhaps we should halt all federal spending on non-essential projects and never find out?  

what, spend 3 million dollars on decay rates?  that'ar bible dont say NUTHIN about no neutrinoes.  kill it.  damn libruls

Dude, the 'ludes--they're for medicinal purposes only.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:10   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 08 2008,12:55)
heddle perhaps we should halt all federal spending on non-essential projects and never find out?  

what, spend 3 million dollars on decay rates?  that'ar bible dont say NUTHIN about no neutrinoes.  kill it.  damn libruls

actually the Leviathan could have been a neutrino. YU CANT PRUV IT WASNT

  
Shirley Knott



Posts: 148
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,13:47   

Quote (Venus Mousetrap @ Oct. 08 2008,13:10)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 08 2008,12:55)
heddle perhaps we should halt all federal spending on non-essential projects and never find out?  

what, spend 3 million dollars on decay rates?  that'ar bible dont say NUTHIN about no neutrinoes.  kill it.  damn libruls

actually the Leviathan could have been a neutrino. YU CANT PRUV IT WASNT

Nonsense.
Leviathan was a WIMP.
Evidentially so.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,14:20   

Just a guess, but in the process of establishing the evidence for variability in decay rates, I'm pretty sure that you'd have to make some assumptions about the rest of physics that would easily undercut the YEC position. You can't accept the result without accepting those assumptions as well.

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,20:19   

Egads, they're linkin' to Brown over at UD.  

:O  :O  :O

--------------
"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,20:21   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,20:19)
Egads, they're linkin' to Brown over at UD.  

:O  :O  :O

The stupid referencing the stupid?  I fail to see how this is news.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2779
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2008,21:24   

Quote (Ftk @ Oct. 08 2008,20:19)
Egads, they're linkin' to Brown over at UD.  

:O  :O  :O

Droppin' that terminal "g" just to show solidarity with Gov. Bush Lite?  Too cute...

The UDiots are also linkin' to another certified YEC whackaloon, Barry Setterfield.

All science so far!

Tell me, FtK. What useful product or process or insight into reality has come from ANY "creation science" research project?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
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