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skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2008,00:05   

Southern Baptists vow to fight Global Warming!

and no, I'm not referring to the fire and brimstone variety.

  
Nomad



Posts: 311
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2008,04:23   

Color me a bit suspicious of statements like this for the moment.  I mean if in two years' time you can show me news clippings about the baptists mobilizing significant voter turnout to get legislation passed to help curb global warming that'll be something.  Show me photos of churches nationwide covered in solar panels and you'll impress me.

But a church group making a statement that they're concerned about something fails to thrill me to the core, however.  This sounds more like a PR move than a call for change to me.

But then I'm a cynic.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2008,11:24   

Frankly, I’ll take what I can get. What can I say but, “Welcome,” while understanding full well that they’ll eventually take credit for alerting the world and even blame the people who have been of the forefront of this for “doing nothing.” Who knows.
But sooner or later it has to come down to population control, and I don’t suppose they’ll ever take ownership of that.
Quote
His professor had compared destroying God's creation to "tearing a page out of the Bible."
"That struck me. It broke me," the younger Merritt said in an interview, "and that was the impetus that began a life change, a shift of perspective for me."

This kind of thing makes me aware of the gulf that has always existed between me and others, because despite my love of books I always cared more about nature than any book, and never steered myself by it (no, not even The God Delusion). I wish I could understand this gulf but I don’t think I will.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
podzolboy



Posts: 8
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,00:11   

Despite my misgivings and the religious right's well documented history of abusing science I to welcome any kind of statement that recognizes the reality of global warming and the science behind it.  It will be interesting to see how the congregations represented by these people react.  I can only hope they will walk the walk.  But it begs the question of why they can provisionally accept the science behind global warming yet remain woefully ignorant of 150 years of progress in evolutionary science.

  
philbert



Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,05:02   

My first reaction is similar to Kristine's; it's better that they're on board than not, so fair enough, fine, whatever.

But this sort of thing never ceases to baffle me with the sheer weirdness of the religious (especially monotheist, especially Christian) mind. So you wake up one day to the fact that we might need to do something about the environment. Or, similarly, about poverty, disease and general misery. Okay.

How on earth does that (quite right) impulse not then destroy your faith?

Because, clearly, your God isn't doing much about the problem. Certainly not as much as your religion stipulates he could. So he doesn't care as much as you do, in which case you're now in fundamental disagreement, so why keep worshipping? Or maybe he does care about the problem, but cares more that we fix it ourselves than it be fixed - which is just plain weird, so why keep worshipping?

It seems to me that any slight charitable impulse in a religious person should bring a minor version of the Problem of Evil (the Problem of Things Being Messed Up, perhaps) crashing down around them. But it just never seems to.

The wonders of cognitive dissonance, I guess. Just baffling.

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,06:50   

philbert,

       
Quote
How on earth does that (quite right) impulse [environmental concern]not then destroy your faith?

The wonders of cognitive dissonance, I guess. Just baffling.


It's not cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is when a person holds two views that they know are in tension or conflict--not when they hold two views that you think are in tension or conflict. (If that were the case, that others thinking your opinions are not self-consistent was the criterion, then everyone would be in a state of cognitive dissonance.) That fact that you think that that the slightest charitable impulse is a problem for Christianity (a position which in my opinion comes as close to being manifestly absurd as any I've heard in a while) does not make charitable work a thorny theological issue for me. I do not see one iota of theological problem when I have a charitable impulse. (The very thought makes the mind reel.) Ergo, no cognitive dissonance.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,07:37   

philbert, read the Bible.  It's quite obvious throughout that God does what he does and we have no clue as to why in most cases.  In fact there's an entire Book to the point that you're not going to know why because you're incapable of understanding it.  Human hubris is an amazing thing to me and a very poor foundation for the questioning of faith.

  
philbert



Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,13:44   

Heddle: Fair enough, I was using the popular sense of cognitive dissonance, rather than the technical one. But you know what I mean, and you don't really bother to address the actual tension I mentioned, instead opting to just poke at a piece of terminology in my last line. How is it "manifestly absurd" to wonder why charitably-minded Christians don't themselves wonder why God isn't obviously chipping in with the projects they apparently believe in?

Skeptic: (I do love how you blithely assume I haven't read the Bible, by the way.) Doesn't it strike you that a God about whom you could say "we have no clue" why he does what he does "in most cases" was a rather poor object for "faith" Why would you continue to worship a thing you could say that about?

  
dheddle



Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,13:54   

Philbert,

Because the question “why do bad things happen” has long been understood by theologians as adequately answered by a convolution of man’s free will, man’s corrupted nature, and God’s permissive (as opposed to decretive) will. (And, at rare times—say for the Egyptians of Moses’ time, as a result of God’s decretive will.)  That’s one answer. The other is: given that Jesus calls us to charity, and that the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor, it simply boggles the mind that our positively responding to that charge would somehow be viewed as a theological problem.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
philbert



Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,13:57   

Maybe an analogy will help.

I believe in certain "charitable" things very strongly. And when I see the government here -- one which I voted for, and one which generally shares my politics -- not following through on them, distracting itself with pointless issues, or outright undermining the things I believe we as a society should be doing, it's downright depressing.

Now, if I believed there was a morally-perfect and ludicrously-powerful Chairman of the Universe, and he seemed to be acting just like that, I'd have thought it'd be faith-shakingly alarming. But apparently not, for most Christians.

The only reason I can think of for them not being wracked with that cognitive dissonance -- in the proper sense of the word -- is that they're just not thinking things through.

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,14:20   

There's your problem.  Government is answerable to you whereas God is not.  In fact, it is completely the other way around.  You are answerable to God.

Most Christians accept that God requires certain things of them and not the other way around for a multitude of reasons, chief of which is just who do you think you are?  As God said to Job, where were you when I created the heaven and the earth?  Does that make any sense?

  
philbert



Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,21:31   

For a certain value of "sense", yes. It's coherent, sure. But it's pretty obviously immoral and barbaric and generally an attitude unworthy of worship.

It's not that I don't understand the usual theological defenses. It's that they're clearly pretty freaking awful. You seem to be saying that your God could make things a lot better, but just doesn't want to, but still claims to be morally perfect, but acts for morally obtuse reasons, and when questioned (e.g., by Job) just resorts to a very playground response of "well, I'm bigger than you, what are you going to do about it?".

The fact that you are okay with this is what baffles me.

(I'm glad you're not so quick to invoke the Free Will defense as Heddle, though. That one seems even less of a starter, and is even more obviously a late-in-the-game invention by the theologians. You wouldn't say, for example, that it crops up a lot in the actual, you know, Bible. Certainly not in the treatment of people during the Flood, or in Egypt, or in any tribe God felt like helping to wipe out -- and so on, and so on, on and on.)

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,22:32   

One doesn't have to be a mind reader to know that God has plans.
God sometimes kills those who try to get in his way, and sometimes kills those who offer to help.
IMO, global warming or cooling are not on  his list of priorities,
which, by the way, are posted on page 16 of my thread.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,23:20   

no God doesn't tell Job that I'm bigger than you, he says I can't tell you because you just wouldn't understand.  it is beyond human capacity.  As is apparent by your oversimplification.  Who are you to say what is and isn't God's plan when you see such a tiny part of it?

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 1954
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2008,23:42   

It is really too bad that the HIV denialists won't die first.  I wish that the global warming denialists would drown first, and that the ozone loss denialists would all die tonight of skin cancer.  "Libertarian" opponents of species protection should starve first.  "Libertarian" and "religious conservative" opponents of public education should have their cars and toilets repaired by homeschoolers.  They should remove their own appendix and invent their home remedy chemotherapy.  They would die and the rest of us would benefit.

But they won't.

These are further evidences to me that there is no just god.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,06:25   

Quote (philbert @ Mar. 12 2008,13:57)
I believe in certain "charitable" things very strongly. And when I see the government here -- one which I voted for, and one which generally shares my politics -- not following through on them, distracting itself with pointless issues, or outright undermining the things I believe we as a society should be doing, it's downright depressing.

Phil, do you think we  do a better job ruling ourselves than God could?
I said to my housekeeper one day, " Heaven is hell without law and order.  
When hell meets the law, the shit will hit the fan."

The next morning I opened my newspaper to the front page. The top headline read, "Helmet Law Inforcement Begins".

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations
with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

OOPS, there goes seperation of church and state.

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
philbert



Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,06:44   

Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 12 2008,23:20)
no God doesn't tell Job that I'm bigger than you, he says I can't tell you because you just wouldn't understand.  it is beyond human capacity.  As is apparent by your oversimplification.  Who are you to say what is and isn't God's plan when you see such a tiny part of it?

Well, no. God browbeats Job for verse after verse with expressions of his power, not just his mysteriousness. And even then, what the hell sort of answer is that?

The gigantic irony with the usual apologetic Christian reading of the Book of Job is that we (the reader) know exactly why Job is suffering as he is; it was a wager, between God and Satan*, which they made for no apparent stakes, after a rather jovial catching-up.

The idea that God would bellow out of his whirlwind that he doesn't have to answer Job because Job just wouldn't understand is vicious and hilarious, in a horrific sort of way. We know exactly why he did what he did. It was a wager. There's no mysterious morality behind the whole thing.

*(Even if you read this "Satan" as not "the" Satan of the usual Christian mythology, but some sort of weird angelic helper-bastard, it's still just a wager. And, apparently just for good measure, there's the bonus oddness of God apparently having to ask -- similar to how he does in Eden, at one point -- where someone's been.)

But the fundamental point here is even more basic than that. If the God you believe exists is this morally opaque (to the point where he doesn't appear to make an effort, even when asked), and so apparently ambivalent to the issues that spark your own charitable urges -- why on earth would you still worship him? If you can't get an answer to such basic questions about his priorities and motivations, how could you possibly conclude he was a thing worthy of worship?

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,07:23   

Quote
Most Christians accept that God requires certain things of them and not the other way around for a multitude of reasons, chief of which is just who do you think you are?

Who does God think he is then? Saying me what to do, if I don't I'll get punished and if we ask why the excuse comes that we wouldn't understand anyway. Wich would also mean that God isn't all-powerfull: he can't even explain his own morality to us. Why would his morality be superior anyway? He apperantly destroys someone's life just to prove a point.
Like philbert says, why on earth do I want to worship such a sadistic being?
 
Quote
Who are you to say what is and isn't God's plan when you see such a tiny part of it?

Who is God to be so arrogant to not explain it? So we should just let murderers go when they say "Yea, I got a plan wich you don't understand anyway.", I wonder what we would do to the judges then.
What kind of lame excuse is that?


Anyway, about the topic starts. It's so funny to see people like that, a couple of days ago I've seen an advertisment from the WWF simply saying "Help us stop global warming!". It's so arrogant, so ignorant, I couldn't stop giggling. Stop global warming...hilarious. Must be a new symptome from the Bambi Syndrome.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,08:22   

[quote=philbert,Mar. 13 2008,06:44]
Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 12 2008,23:20)
If you can't get an answer to such basic questions about his priorities and motivations, how could you possibly conclude he was a thing worthy of worship?

Phil, God does have a goal, direction, time frame, purpose:

Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish
the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to
bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

In seventy weeks:
1. finish the transgression
2. make an end of sins
3. make reconciliation for iniquity
4.bring in everlasting righteousness
5.seal up the vision and prophecy
6.anoint the most Holy

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,12:30   

Quote (hereoisreal @ Mar. 13 2008,14:22)
[quote=philbert,Mar. 13 2008,06:44]
Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 12 2008,23:20)
If you can't get an answer to such basic questions about his priorities and motivations, how could you possibly conclude he was a thing worthy of worship?

Phil, God does have a goal, direction, time frame, purpose:

Clearly it's to kill us all. I mean lets face it, any being who absolutely loves us unconditionally (forget the saving thing, I mean just the love god is supposed to have for us all) and who could do something about the problems we face would. Even if he only helped those who believed in every instance then those people should be totally immune to all the crap the universe throws at us.

I simply cannot believe that god is omnibenevolent if he exists at all. Assuming that the great dictator exists, then everything in the world, including the fall of man is HIS fault, the rest of this post will assume god is real. He created us knowing we would screw up like we did. I fail to understand how a being that loves us would knowingly condemn us to eternal punnishment.

For god to be all powerful and all knowing, he would know that man would be a colossal failure before he even made us as a species. This also provides a problem for free will, as if such a being as god existed, his prior knowledge of all events would mean that all of history and the future were forgone conclusions, meaning that no choices we make are real in any sense, as the outcome has already been written.

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4361
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,15:17   

Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Mar. 13 2008,12:30)
[quote=hereoisreal,Mar. 13 2008,14:22]
Quote (philbert @ Mar. 13 2008,06:44)
 
Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 12 2008,23:20)
If you can't get an answer to such basic questions about his priorities and motivations, how could you possibly conclude he was a thing worthy of worship?

Phil, God does have a goal, direction, time frame, purpose:

Clearly it's to kill us all. I mean lets face it, any being who absolutely loves us unconditionally (forget the saving thing, I mean just the love god is supposed to have for us all) and who could do something about the problems we face would. Even if he only helped those who believed in every instance then those people should be totally immune to all the crap the universe throws at us.

I simply cannot believe that god is omnibenevolent if he exists at all. Assuming that the great dictator exists, then everything in the world, including the fall of man is HIS fault, the rest of this post will assume god is real. He created us knowing we would screw up like we did. I fail to understand how a being that loves us would knowingly condemn us to eternal punnishment.

For god to be all powerful and all knowing, he would know that man would be a colossal failure before he even made us as a species. This also provides a problem for free will, as if such a being as god existed, his prior knowledge of all events would mean that all of history and the future were forgone conclusions, meaning that no choices we make are real in any sense, as the outcome has already been written.

Yeah.  I have long thought that God should be bitched-slapped up one side and down the other. Face it - god is a Big Dick.

The people that worship "Him" for the most part have NOT read their Holy BooK - if they did, and understood what the hell the goat-herders wrote about him, they'd be pissed too.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,15:25   

Quote

But the fundamental point here is even more basic than that. If the God you believe exists is this morally opaque (to the point where he doesn't appear to make an effort, even when asked), and so apparently ambivalent to the issues that spark your own charitable urges -- why on earth would you still worship him?


Well, the crude answer is, of course, to avoid even worse torture if you don't worship him!

It's never been a very appealing idea to me, either. Smells like a bunch of half-baked after-the-fact rationalizations all slapped together, but then again, virtually all Christian apologetics strike me that way.

Uh oh. Am I now on FTK's 'Fry List'?  :O

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,16:40   

Quote (philbert @ Mar. 13 2008,06:44)
Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 12 2008,23:20)
no God doesn't tell Job that I'm bigger than you, he says I can't tell you because you just wouldn't understand.  it is beyond human capacity.  As is apparent by your oversimplification.  Who are you to say what is and isn't God's plan when you see such a tiny part of it?

Well, no. God browbeats Job for verse after verse with expressions of his power, not just his mysteriousness. And even then, what the hell sort of answer is that?

The gigantic irony with the usual apologetic Christian reading of the Book of Job is that we (the reader) know exactly why Job is suffering as he is; it was a wager, between God and Satan*, which they made for no apparent stakes, after a rather jovial catching-up.

The idea that God would bellow out of his whirlwind that he doesn't have to answer Job because Job just wouldn't understand is vicious and hilarious, in a horrific sort of way. We know exactly why he did what he did. It was a wager. There's no mysterious morality behind the whole thing.

*(Even if you read this "Satan" as not "the" Satan of the usual Christian mythology, but some sort of weird angelic helper-bastard, it's still just a wager. And, apparently just for good measure, there's the bonus oddness of God apparently having to ask -- similar to how he does in Eden, at one point -- where someone's been.)

But the fundamental point here is even more basic than that. If the God you believe exists is this morally opaque (to the point where he doesn't appear to make an effort, even when asked), and so apparently ambivalent to the issues that spark your own charitable urges -- why on earth would you still worship him? If you can't get an answer to such basic questions about his priorities and motivations, how could you possibly conclude he was a thing worthy of worship?

again, it's because I don't demand anything of God.  He is not required to answer my questions and you know why?  Because I am not the center of the Universe.  God does not need to clear things through me.  That is the height of arrogance.  In fact the root of all sin is pride and that seems to be the fundamental lesson of the Bible.  In short, get over yourself.

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,16:42   

Quote (Assassinator @ Mar. 13 2008,07:23)
Quote
Most Christians accept that God requires certain things of them and not the other way around for a multitude of reasons, chief of which is just who do you think you are?

Who does God think he is then? Saying me what to do, if I don't I'll get punished and if we ask why the excuse comes that we wouldn't understand anyway. Wich would also mean that God isn't all-powerfull: he can't even explain his own morality to us. Why would his morality be superior anyway? He apperantly destroys someone's life just to prove a point.
Like philbert says, why on earth do I want to worship such a sadistic being?
   
Quote
Who are you to say what is and isn't God's plan when you see such a tiny part of it?

Who is God to be so arrogant to not explain it? So we should just let murderers go when they say "Yea, I got a plan wich you don't understand anyway.", I wonder what we would do to the judges then.
What kind of lame excuse is that?


Anyway, about the topic starts. It's so funny to see people like that, a couple of days ago I've seen an advertisment from the WWF simply saying "Help us stop global warming!". It's so arrogant, so ignorant, I couldn't stop giggling. Stop global warming...hilarious. Must be a new symptome from the Bambi Syndrome.

this is like listening to a child reason, in fact I think I heard my six year old say nearly the same thing when I told him not to touch the hot stove.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3037
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,16:51   

Well, this sure spread a lot of good will! :)

Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 13 2008,15:42)
 
Quote (Assassinator @ Mar. 13 2008,07:23)
   
Quote
Most Christians accept that God requires certain things of them and not the other way around for a multitude of reasons, chief of which is just who do you think you are?

Who does God think he is then? Saying me what to do, if I don't I'll get punished and if we ask why the excuse comes that we wouldn't understand anyway. Wich would also mean that God isn't all-powerfull: he can't even explain his own morality to us. Why would his morality be superior anyway? He apperantly destroys someone's life just to prove a point.
Like philbert says, why on earth do I want to worship such a sadistic being?
       
Quote
Who are you to say what is and isn't God's plan when you see such a tiny part of it?

Who is God to be so arrogant to not explain it? So we should just let murderers go when they say "Yea, I got a plan wich you don't understand anyway.", I wonder what we would do to the judges then.
What kind of lame excuse is that?


Anyway, about the topic starts. It's so funny to see people like that, a couple of days ago I've seen an advertisment from the WWF simply saying "Help us stop global warming!". It's so arrogant, so ignorant, I couldn't stop giggling. Stop global warming...hilarious. Must be a new symptome from the Bambi Syndrome.

this is like listening to a child reason, in fact I think I heard my six year old say nearly the same thing when I told him not to touch the hot stove.

*Hhhsssttt!* "Ouch! I touched a hot planet! I burned my ass!

Maybe I shouldn't screw up the ecosystem again!"

Do I have it right? :D

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,17:02   

Ian, that's actually a much more serious topic.  I prefer to think of the analogy of God's foreknowledge as knowledge of all possible outcomes.  From our perspective it would naturally be assumed that God had to know we'd screw up but maybe we had the chance not to screw up and we missed it.  And maybe there are multiple chances for us not to screw up and God keeps presenting us with these chances.  Again, we're placing assumptions on God's knowledge and his intentions which is problematic from the start.

So that begs the question, do we actually have free will?  If God can see all possible outcomes does that mean the future is pre-determined?  Using this analogy, we still have free will even if all our possible actions can be know or anticipated by God.  Think of it as a game of chess.  It's theoretically possible, while not currently technically possible, to predict all possible moves from any position.  Just the knowing doesn't restrict you from making those moves especially when it's not you who knows.  So I as an observer can see your moves and see where you going even if you don't know but you are still perfectly free to make any move you want.  At least that's how I see it, does that address your point?  Not convince you, mind you, but address it.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,18:23   

Ian said:
"Clearly it's to kill us all."

Ian, clearly that is not one of God's priorities.

In seventy weeks:
1. finish the transgression
2. make an end of sins
3. make reconciliation for iniquity
4.bring in everlasting righteousness
5.seal up the vision and prophecy
6.anoint the most Holy

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,19:17   

Quote
this is like listening to a child reason, in fact I think I heard my six year old say nearly the same thing when I told him not to touch the hot stove.

What's wrong with asking certain things? Why can't we question God, what in God's name is wrong with that? Does it make us inferior? Does it make us burn and suffer forever? Why wouldn't God say those things?
Or am I interpreting what you sad totally wrong and did you mean this against what I sad about global warming? (those things happen ofcourse, better clear them up)
   
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That is the height of arrogance.  In fact the root of all sin is pride and that seems to be the fundamental lesson of the Bible.  In short, get over yourself.

Can you please tell that to God then? I'm just asking for some explanation from His side, nothing more. If God thinks that's wrong, He can say that to me.
I still don't understand something, why on earth worship such a being? Why worship a being who apperantly does nothing for you even if you ask it from the deepest bottom of your heart (ask my grandma about that)? Not doing those things is 1 thing, but apperantly He won't even explain anything! How on earth is that not cruel? Why can't we demand certain things, have you ever heard about the principle of equal trade?

  
Reed



Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,21:36   

Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 12 2008,21:20)
no God doesn't tell Job that I'm bigger than you, he says I can't tell you because you just wouldn't understand.  it is beyond human capacity.  As is apparent by your oversimplification.  Who are you to say what is and isn't God's plan when you see such a tiny part of it?

If Gods plan is incomprehensible, how is that different (for us) from a universe that is just incomprehensible without God ? If anything at all can happen and still be part of Gods plan, what would make you believe there is a God, never mind one with the specific attributes given in a particular book* ?

If he is really incomprehensible, why would you believe the bible was really his word ? Maybe it's a test to sort out the gullible from those capable of rational observation ?

What objective criteria allows you to decide God is the God of the bible and not the daemon sultan Azathoth Or Zeus ? Or Loki ? Or Shiva or FSM ?

         
Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 13 2008,14:42)
this is like listening to a child reason, in fact I think I heard my six year old say nearly the same thing when I told him not to touch the hot stove.

Except that if your son touched the stove, he would have burned himself, and learned something about the accuracy of your advice. OTOH, following or not following alleged word of God has, by and large, no significant observable relationship to getting burned or not.

* Which by objective observation appears to be collected myths of some middle eastern tribesmen as heard through a multi-millennia game of telephone, and has about the accuracy and information content you'd expect to result from this exercise.

  
qetzal



Posts: 309
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,21:48   

Quote (Assassinator @ Mar. 13 2008,19:17)
What's wrong with asking certain things? Why can't we question God, what in God's name is wrong with that?

We can. The problem is that he never answers. At least, not in any objectively discernable way.

The question is why doesn't answer? A simple and obvious explanation is that there is no omniscient, omnipowerful, omnipresent personal god. But of course, that answer is not acceptable to a believer, so believers need a different answer.

Hence, "We're not capable of understanding; God answers in his own way; God's plan is incomprehensible to mortal man; etc."

  
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